Fundraising meeting, September 2004/Log

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This is the IRC log of the fundraising and grants discussion that took place in #wikimedia on September 17, 2004. All times are UTC+1.

[21:04] <mav> again, is there an agenda?
[21:04] <dannyisback> hello
[21:04] <Anthere> ah good
[21:04] <mav> I danny
[21:04] <mav> hi tim
[21:04] <dannyisback> hi anthere mav
[21:04] <TimShell> hello
[21:04] <Anthere> we can go on then
[21:05] <Angela> mav: nothing official. Just some questions that need to be addressed at Fundraising meeting, September 2004
[21:05] <Anthere> please start Angela
[21:05] <Angela> was any decision made about whether this meeting should also cover grant priorities?
[21:06] <Anthere> hmmm, yes
[21:06] <dannyisback> i believe so, angela
[21:06] <mav> since Danny is here we can cover that
[21:06] <Angela> I suggested yesterday that it could be 1 hour on the fundraising drive, then 1 hour on that. Is that ok?
[21:06] <mav> but the press release and fund drive should come first
[21:06] <dannyisback> ok
[21:06] <mav> ok
[21:06] <Angela> anyway, since jwales is here, he ought to chair the meeting :)
[21:06] <jwales> Uh, o.k.  :-)
[21:06] <mav> Second!
[21:07] <Anthere> ok
[21:07] <jwales> O.k., well, I'm really efficient with stuff like this.
[21:07] <jwales> :-)
[21:07] <mav> so what should our fund drive goal be?
[21:07] <Anthere> jimbo
[21:07] <mav> see http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising
[21:07] <Anthere> your questions are here
[21:07] <Anthere> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004
[21:08] <jwales> We should set a target that we can meet successfully.
[21:08] <Anthere> Mav, the bar is not very explicit
[21:08] <jwales> Because we have always gotten a good vibe from the fact that we get more than we ask for -- this is good for the health of future drives. Overreaching and failing would be bad precedent.
[21:08] <jwales> I heard someone mention the number $60,000?
[21:08] <Angela> we made $20,000 the last time, and that wasn't even a real drive, so we should certainly aim for more than that
[21:09] <mav> jwales ; I agree
[21:09] <Anthere> 50 000 ?
[21:09] <mav> double it
[21:09] <Angela> I mentioned $60,000 in an email. That might be a bit much
[21:09] <jwales> $100,000?
[21:09] <Anthere> tooo much
[21:09] <Angela> how long is the drive lasting?#
[21:09] <mav> yes - too much
[21:09] <Anthere> 2 weeks ?
[21:09] <mav> until we get the money! :)
[21:09] <jwales> Oh, mav meant double $20,000.  :-)
[21:09] <Anthere> when do en sent release ?
[21:09] <Anthere> how many days after us ?
[21:09] <Angela> I was thinking 2 weeks, which makes 100,000 seem to high
[21:09] <dannyisback> how long until th enext fund raising drive?
[21:10] <Angela> Anthere: every one is sending on Monday afaik
[21:10] <dannyisback> how much money do we have
[21:10] <Anthere> I understood tuesday...
[21:10] <mav> we should have one per quarter
[21:10] <dannyisback> how much money will we need unt according to the budget, until the next drive
[21:10] * Anthere changes her agenda
[21:10] <mav> we don't have a budget
[21:10] <dannyisback> all of that will determine how much we want to aim for
[21:10] <jwales> I am sending Terry with the bank card now to get the exact balance.
[21:10] <dannyisback> how much do you anticipate we will need
[21:11] <Anthere> shaihulud ?
[21:11] <mav> sweet - I need to know that
[21:11] <brion> Not having a budget is probably a bad thing.
[21:11] <Anthere> tech needs ?
[21:11] <jwales> Danny, it is difficult to project. Every time we buy new servers, traffic spikes.
[21:11] <shaihulud> anthere ?
[21:11] <shaihulud> well currently not a lot of things
[21:11] <Anthere> do you have any idea what we need in the next 3 montsh ?
[21:11] <jwales> I feel that it is impossible to predict, but we will have no problem spending $60k if we raise it.
[21:12] <jwales> There's one thing that I need to bring up here.
[21:12] <brion> Last december we had to respond to questions of "what are you spending the money on?" with "i dunno, STUFF"
[21:12] <Anthere> bad
[21:12] <Angela> According to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_budget, provisionally budgeted server expenses are $27,000 to $31,000 USD for the 3rd quarter
[21:12] <jwales> Starting fairly soon, I would like wikimedia to start paying half the colo costs.
[21:12] <shaihulud> I agree with jwales
[21:12] <dannyisback> how much are the colo costs?
[21:12] <Anthere> nod
[21:12] <shaihulud> wikimedia must pay its colo cost
[21:13] <brion> well, that's something with known costs you can put in the budget. what's the estimate for that?
[21:13] <jwales> At this point, we can faily easily project how to spend money. Additional apaches, additional squids, additional rack space, additional db servers.
[21:13] <Anthere> we also need to purchase many domain names...
[21:13] <_sj_> additional domains
[21:13] <Angela> $26000 a year isn't it?
[21:13] <Anthere> got you :-)
[21:13] <jwales> The cost is currently $2300 per month for 20Mbs of bandwidth -- but we are pulling a bit more than that.
[21:14] <jwales> So it's not huge, but the reason I brought it up is that I'd like the fundraising page to reflect it before the drive.
[21:14] <Fire> Err. Hello.
[21:14] <mav> jwales; yes we need to know the whole amount the Bomis is paying for badwidth
[21:14] <jwales> So no one claims I sprung it on them.
[21:14] <mav> and count that as a donation
[21:14] <mav> legal stuff
[21:14] <jwales> Mav, that's an accounting issue we can talk about later.
[21:14] <mav> k
[21:14] <dannyisback> so budgeted servers = c. 30 k + 1/2 colo c. 15 k = 45 k
[21:15] <Anthere> we could also esetimate the costs of domain names
[21:15] <_sj_> 10 domains/country * 200 countries = 20k/yr
[21:15] <jwales> At this moment, we have $26,662.84 in the bank.
[21:15] <mav> I'd say we should budget for 60K for a reserve
[21:15] <Angela> dannyisback: those server costs were just for one quarter
[21:15] <_sj_> maybe only 10k/yr in bulk
[21:15] <dannyisback> yes, i am working that according to the budget until the next drive
[21:16] <shaihulud> jwales, 26.000$ in bank dispite the last server order ?
[21:16] <Angela> do we need domains in every country? Personally, I've been a bit concerned people keep buying them without any regard for future costs
[21:16] <jwales> shai, right.
[21:16] <mav> Yes - I thought the server order took all that
[21:16] <elian> Angela: agreed
[21:17] <brion> PLEASE NO MORE DOMAINS. THEY ARE A PERMANENT MONEY DRAIN FOREVER.
[21:17] <shaihulud> lol
[21:17] <mav> jwales; so we have 26K with no bills on that?
[21:17] <Jamesday> should split the rack and bandwidth cost numbers - because one goal is to accept bandwidth donations. Means we need to know the bandwidth value of the donation so we can assess payback period for hardware buys..
[21:17] <MDavis> Bandwidth info at http://65.59.189.201/www.bomis-total/www.bomis-total.html
[21:17] <jwales> No, the last server order took the money that was in the bank, this is new money to replace that.
[21:17] <jwales> mav: yes.
[21:18] <dannyisback> based on all this, it seems like $50 k could go a long way
[21:18] <dannyisback> and is reasonable to aim for
[21:18] <jwales> Plus we have 10,000 Euros due from the Prix Ars Electronica people.
[21:18] <Anthere> brion : I would be very unhappy we lose www.wikipedia.fr....
[21:18] <mav> that is extra-budgetary
[21:18] <jwales> Take a look at that bandwidth graph Michael posted.
[21:18] <jwales> That's direct from the colo.
[21:18] <_sj_> Angela: probably not. Perhaps 20 domains/country * 10 countries + 1 domain/country * 100 countries
[21:19] <elian> Anthere: friendly wikipedians can hold them to prevent squatters
[21:19] <elian> Anthere: as some kind of donation
[21:19] <mav> can we keep this to a single topic at at time?
[21:19] <Anthere> elian, no
[21:19] <jwales> We have a 20Mbs base, but we are using more than "a bit" more as I said above: a lot more.
[21:19] <Anthere> we cannot
[21:19] <mav> fund drive goal
[21:19] <Angela> but if people are linking to those, we are then required to maintain those domains
[21:19] <elian> mav: okay
[21:19] <jwales> Yes, ahem.
[21:19] <jwales> Meeting called to order please.
[21:19] <jwales> We can talk about domains later. They are an expense we can analyze.
[21:20] <mav> since we have 26K in the bank already, how much should the fund drive aim for?
[21:20] <Anthere> jimbo
[21:20] <jwales> But basically, are we all happy with the $50,000 number as a goal?
[21:20] <Angela> 50-60 seems reasonable
[21:20] <Anthere> the amount mentionned go up to 33000
[21:20] <dannyisback> i think we should ignore the money in the bank for now, since it is not that much
[21:20] <mav> 50K is a nice round number
[21:20] <Anthere> 50 is nice
[21:20] <dannyisback> 50 k as a target
[21:20] <jwales> Additionally, I would like to raise the issue publicly about funding travel expenses.
[21:20] <mav> everybody agreed?
[21:21] <Anthere> 50 is fine
[21:21] <dannyisback> wait
[21:21] <jwales> We had the hysteria about Angela's train ticket to Paris.
[21:21] <mav> travel expenses should be part of the regular budget
[21:21] <jwales> I would like to at least have some mention in our fundraising that some of the money could be used to subsidize some travel expenses.
[21:21] <dannyisback> i think it is worthwhile to us to fund travel expenses
[21:21] <jwales> *nod* I agree mav.
[21:21] <dannyisback> up to a set amount per quarter
[21:21] <mav> we should limit it up front
[21:22] <elian> jwales: and money for the conference
[21:22] <jwales> If/when we have a board vote on that topic, I will abstain since I would be the primary beneficiary from that presumably.
[21:22] <mav> once per quarter per board member and up to 3 confrences
[21:22] <dannyisback> the conference isnt this quarter elian, so the budget should be extremely limited
[21:22] <dannyisback> would 10 k cover that, mav?
[21:22] <mav> I dunno
[21:23] <mav> Jimbo would know better - he travels a lot
[21:23] <jwales> elian: yes. Danny, I think what she means is that we could go ahead and at least mention now that we are planning a conference to further our work next year.
[21:23] <dannyisback> oh ok
[21:23] <jwales> I spent, oh, I don't know, on my big trip this summer. Probably $7,000.
[21:23] <Anthere> what does that mean once per quarter ?
[21:23] <Angela> Anthere: every 3 months
[21:24] <jwales> Anthere: trimester.. :-)
[21:24] <Anthere> I would prefer short trips more often than one big one
[21:24] <mav> one official face-toface board meeting every 3 months
[21:24] <Anthere> I go once in Paris, then it is over
[21:24] <Anthere> I think it is not really worth it
[21:24] <mav> face-to-face meetings?
[21:25] <jwales> Oh, I think face to face board meeting isn't necessary. We hang out on IRC 12 hours a day with each other anyway. ;-)
[21:25] <Anthere> I think a maximum amount is more reasonable
[21:25] <Angela> face-to face board meetings every 3 months seems excessively expensive
[21:25] <mav> OK
[21:25] <Jamesday> IP telephony and video conferencing cameras sounds as though it might be a more economical approach.
[21:25] <mav> limit it to special events
[21:25] <Anthere> ?
[21:25] <_sj_> agreed. some small compensation for travel to local meetings might be nice
[21:25] <Anthere> where do we get the camera ?
[21:25] <dannyisback> i would say, $1,000 per board member per quarter and $5,000 for jimbo per quarter
[21:25] <Jamesday> Web camears - US$100 or less version
[21:26] <_sj_> (for the board)
[21:26] <jwales> that sounds good to me, danny, but more than I would have asked for.
[21:26] <dannyisback> you dont have to spend it :-)
[21:26] <jwales> *nod*
[21:26] <Angela> considering the outcry over a $140 train to Paris, people are not going to be happy about this
[21:26] <dannyisback> but it shoudl be available
[21:26] <mav> it would go back into the general fund if not spent
[21:26] <mav> angela; we just need to mention this up front
[21:27] <Anthere> most destinations in europe, I can go for perhaps 250
[21:27] <TimShell> In the budget, should a distinction be drawn between what we need to sustain Wikipedia, and what we want to expand it?
[21:27] <dannyisback> i think most people have now seen how important face to face meetings are
[21:27] <jwales> To give an example: I have been invited to a conference in Delhi next spring, but the organizers have no money. I have contacts with a group that which builds media labs in the slums and wants to distribute wikipedia, etc.
[21:27] <mav> when they donate that x amount may be spent on travel
[21:27] <Anthere> this seems reasonable as a max
[21:27] <Anthere> dont have to spent it all
[21:27] <_sj_> TimShell, yes
[21:27] <jwales> I have an invitation from Joichi Ito to come with him on a fact-finding tour about creative commons/free content type of stuff in Africa... but there's no funding, it's just him going with some other people.
[21:27] <dannyisback> i think it is improtant that you go, jimbo
[21:27] <TimShell> So we can say, we need $20,000 to keep things running, but would like to raise $50,000 for our expansion plans
[21:27] <mav> TimShell; yes
[21:28] <TimShell> And then spell out out expansion plans
[21:28] <Anthere> tim, we need more than 20000
[21:28] <dannyisback> i would say 30,000 to keep things running
[21:28] <Angela> agree with Anthere
[21:28] <jwales> Angela is absolutely right about people not being happy.
[21:28] <Anthere> we need at least 30000 or 40000
[21:28] <dannyisback> and 20 for expansion
[21:28] <Anthere> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004#Some_points
[21:28] <Angela> 36k for expenses is way too much
[21:28] <TimShell> Whatever the numbers, I think framing the issue that way might inspire people a little more
[21:29] <_sj_> Angela, agreed
[21:29] <Anthere> made a typo...
[21:29] <mav> yes
[21:29] <jwales> Anyhow, for now, I think we can settle on $50,000 as a goal, for a 2 week fund drive, does that sound reasonable?
[21:29] <mav> yes
[21:29] <Angela> yes
[21:29] <dannyisback> yes
[21:29] <mav> next item?
[21:29] <Jamesday> The additional servers thre is too low - $20,000 per quarter is probably more realistic and may be too little.
[21:29] <Anthere> we need 60000 per year minimum
[21:30] <mav> anthere; our expenses are not linear
[21:30] <jwales> And to mention on the donation page that it's mostly for hardware, but that also we are going fund some travel and that we have a big conference planned for next year which will involve some expenses.
[21:30] <Anthere> I did not count linear mav
[21:30] <dannyisback> i also suggest we add a 10 % miscellaneous for unanticipated costs
[21:30] <_sj_> I think we will find next week that our server cluster is already underprepared for big traffic spikes
[21:30] <jwales> You can't really say "per year" with any accuracy, because we are doubling quickly.
[21:30] <Anthere> the big conf next year will be for other board members ;-)
[21:30] <Jamesday> $20,00 for next quarter is definitely too low - we'll need more database servers.
[21:30] <mav> a 20% resereve is good practice
[21:31] <Angela> dannyisback: I agree. A contingency fund is important
[21:31] <mav> it will be part of the buget
[21:31] <dannyisback> yes
[21:31] <mav> budget that is
[21:31] <Anthere> nod
[21:31] <mav> we need to have a separate meeting on the budget
[21:32] <dannyisback> but we are agreed on 50 k?
[21:32] <Anthere> this was to have an idea of the amount
[21:32] <mav> just keep things real general now
[21:32] <jwales> I think we should try to get as much money as we can, to do as many things as possible.
[21:32] <jwales> The only question of "too much" is making sure we don't fail.
[21:32] <mav> yes
[21:32] <jwales> 50k.
[21:32] <mav> I think 50K is reasonable
[21:32] <Anthere> what worries me
[21:32] <Jamesday> For a one quarter target $50,000 seems OK. Expect to spend $30,000-$50,000 on hardware.
[21:32] <Anthere> is that the 20000 donations
[21:32] <Anthere> was not a long time ago
[21:32] <node_ue> All valid points.
[21:33] <Angela> Anthere: true, but that was only en, and wasn't really publicised outside Wikipedia
[21:33] <_sj_> Anthere, true. hopefully the forthcoming donations will be from different people
[21:33] <mav> jamesday; we already have 26K in the bank and a 9K award
[21:33] <jwales> O.k., well, at least for this meeting, should we move on?
[21:33] <Jamesday> 26k seems like a good start on a reserver:)
[21:33] <jwales> mav: 10K Euros -> 12k $
[21:33] <node_ue> However recently it's become clear that the
[21:33] <mav> ah
[21:34] <jwales> Are we agreed to move onto the next point?
[21:34] <dannyisback> yes
[21:34] <mav> damn strong Euro...
[21:34] <Angela> yes
[21:34] <Anthere> yup
[21:34] <mav> what is the next point?
[21:34] <jwales> "Website is not yet official"
[21:34] <mav> good point
[21:34] <mav> we need to work on that
[21:34] <jwales> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004#Some_points someone is updating this live.
[21:34] <Angela> yes, if the fundraising pages are now on the Wikimedia wiki, that needs to change
[21:34] <mav> stat
[21:35] <Angela> is there anything that needs doing to the site before Monday that means we can say that it is now official?
[21:35] <Anthere> still, a few major pages look bad
[21:35] <mav> angela; what about the skin you were working on?
[21:35] <Angela> brion was working on it
[21:35] <mav> oh
[21:35] <node_ue> On the other hand it should be noted that we
[21:35] <mav> brion?
[21:35] <jwales> If you may remember, I was travelling a missed the meeting where it was dtermined
[21:36] <mav> we need a membership form
[21:36] <_sj_> can someone please +q node?
[21:36] <jwales> the plan about the website. Is there a plan to export these pages somewhere, or these exact pages will be *it*?
[21:36] <brion> has been delayed in part due to some work on skin code in 1.4 to make it easier to hack in a new skin
[21:36] <Anthere> the site looking good can wait
[21:36] <node_ue> sj, why? I'm trying to get a
[21:36] <Anthere> but the main page and a few essential ones should look decent
[21:36] <jwales> I don't care either way, I guess I actually prefer it to be always in the wiki so we can update it.
[21:36] <Angela> it's not necessary to have it Monday
[21:36] <Anthere> node, please, either finish your sentence or shut up
[21:36] <mav> anthere; things like [edit] have got to go
[21:36] <jwales> Well, Anthere and Angela and I (at least) can go over it tomorrow?
[21:36] <Angela> jwales: they will stay in the wiki, but it won't look like a wiki
[21:37] <dannyisback> when can we have it by?
[21:37] <Anthere> why mav ?
[21:37] <yannf> mandrake said they would give some money
[21:37] <Angela> Anthere: because people can't edit it
[21:37] <mav> anthere; when somebody who does not have an account click on that
[21:37] <Anthere> he cant click on it
[21:37] <jwales> O.k., yann, did they give an indication of how much?
[21:37] <yannf> jwales: actually, they asked how much we want ;)
[21:38] <Anthere> mav, do you think it absolutely necessary that it goes away ?
[21:38] <dannyisback> will that be counted as part of our fundraising drive, yann?
[21:38] <mav> If needed we could protect all pages so that a [View Source] link is there instead
[21:38] <Anthere> before monday ?
[21:38] <dannyisback> or is it separate?
[21:38] <jwales> *ahem* You're asking the wrong guy, because I don't have enough numbers on this keyboard to type a number that large.
[21:38] <Anthere> 999999999999999999999999999999999 euros
[21:38] <mav> anthere; for people who can not edit, yes
[21:39] <jwales> Exactly: if they give that much, Ant, I will donate 1 euro to make it a round number.
[21:39] <Jamesday> How about a percentage of their revenue, based on estimated value of the encyclopedia to that product?
[21:39] <Anthere> nod
[21:39] <brion> mav: exactly what are you talking about? edit links can be hidden easily in the style sheet.
[21:39] <Anthere> but brion, could you do that by monday ?
[21:39] <Angela> yannf: do you know how many DVDs they intend to distribute with this? Perhaps we could ask for an amount per DVD
[21:39] <yannf> and they agreed to make a donation, no contract, so no tax
[21:39] <jwales> Yann: as a PR stunt, do you think they'd do a challenge grant?
[21:39] <brion> Anthere: do what specifically? hide section edit links?
[21:39] <Anthere> yes
[21:39] <mav> brion; oh OK - so long as logged in users can see them
[21:39] <_sj_> jwales: ooh, nice
[21:39] <Angela> brion: and the edit tab
[21:39] <jwales> Yann: What I mean is, would they say kick in $10,000 if we raise $50,000?
[21:40] <yannf> Angela: no, i asked, but obviously they don't want to say
[21:40] <mav> brion; sub page functionality is needed\
[21:40] <brion> mav: that might be harder. will check if it's possible to hack the prefs
[21:40] <Anthere> what does stunt mean ?
[21:40] <jwales> This makes a nice incentive for people to give when we get close.
[21:40] <jwales> Anthere: it just means something done to get attention.
[21:40] <yannf> jwales: challenge grant?
[21:40] <Jamesday> jwales, not good deal for them - the value to them is related to disk sales. Fixed high numbers make life difficult on their side.
[21:41] <mav> anybody working on an english version of a membership form?
[21:41] <Angela> yannf: would they agree to give an amount based on how much we get in the fundraising drive?
[21:41] <jwales> Jamesday: he said they want to donate, I assume that means from love of the project.
[21:41] <Angela> mav: I was a long time ago. I'll put something up later
[21:41] <yannf> jwales, Angela : no, they didn't say anything like this
[21:41] <mav> angela; cool, just use <html></html> to get it to work
[21:41] <Angela> nod
[21:41] <yannf> and actually, they don't know we do a fundraising drive
[21:42] <Jamesday> jwales, sounds worth clarifying. Long term it's probably best for us to make percentage of revenue arrangements - more money for us, less uncertainty for the distributor, who doesn't have to gamble on sales volume.
[21:42] <mav> who is they?
[21:42] <Anthere> mav, I was a long time ago on a french, I think I lost it
[21:42] <jwales> O.k., so on this point, point 3, how about we agree that Angela, Ant and I will review it over the weekend and give a stamp of "officialness" before monday, one way or another.
[21:42] <Anthere> but mav, no membership set before monday, that is for sure
[21:42] <Angela> are the membership details finalised enough to go live at the same time as te fundraising?
[21:42] <Anthere> let us be realistic
[21:42] <yannf> there is quite a lot of work to package the think
[21:43] <Anthere> angela, we need a separate database...
[21:43] <Anthere> to decide which information to ask
[21:43] <Angela> ok. It's probably best not to do everything at once anyway
[21:43] <yannf> so we should make a bounty on that, and ask mandrake to pay it
[21:43] <Anthere> which to make public
[21:43] <mav> something to post data to.
[21:43] <Anthere> the form...
[21:43] <Anthere> the translations of amount of membership in different currencies...
[21:44] <mav> the form will need to post its data somewhere
[21:44] <Angela> this database is the sort of thing that does make sense for a bounty since it's not something developers would otherwise be doing, but that's off-topic for now
[21:44] <Anthere> the change of bylaws...
[21:44] <jwales> O.k., off topic, off topic.  :-)
[21:44] <Anthere> any wayt
[21:44] <Anthere> no membership by monday
[21:44] <jwales> Shall we move to the next point?
[21:44] <mav> http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD?submit.x=72&submit.y=19#Monthly
[21:44] <dannyisback> yes
[21:45] <Anthere> so, do we consider the site goes live ?
[21:45] <mav> what about my tier set-up?
[21:45] <jwales> "Which set amounts should be in the monthly/yearly options?"
[21:45] <yannf> what do you think about a bounty for packaging the DVD?
[21:45] <Angela> Anthere: yes. With a bit of tidying this weekend
[21:45] * Anthere supposed the site goes live
[21:45] <Anthere> not from me angela
[21:45] <Anthere> you will do it ?
[21:45] <Angela> yes
[21:45] <mav> the site needs more work
[21:45] <mav> but soon
[21:45] <Anthere> I wont have time this we for this
[21:45] <jwales> Mav, I like it; I have no firm opinion about the exact levels.
[21:46] <_sj_> The newsletter will be ready to be published on the site this weekend
[21:46] <jwales> I will work all weekend if necessary.
[21:46] <Angela> Anthere: don't worry
[21:46] <jwales> But let's face it, I'm a very weak wiki-editor. ;-)
[21:46] <dannyisback> i think the upper levels are too high
[21:46] <_sj_> (in at least three languages)
[21:46] <mav> my set-up has 2.5, 5, 10, 20, 40, 80, ... per month
[21:46] <_sj_> the upper levels are quite high
[21:46] <dannyisback> shouldnt exceed 100
[21:46] <mav> yes
[21:46] <mav> :)
[21:47] <mav> top tier would be over 15K a year
[21:47] <node_ue> BTW, why is the fundraising page nt localised?
[21:47] <jwales> The upper levels are quite high. But there are very wealthy people in the world.
[21:47] <Anthere> But let's face it, I'm a very weak wiki-english-editor. ;-)
[21:47] <Angela> node_ue: there are translations available
[21:47] <mav> just not for the forms yet
[21:47] <mav> I want to finalize what to have in them first
[21:47] <Jamesday> top teir maybe over 100,000 fo rdonations by private foundations.
[21:47] <_sj_> node_ue: we could use your help here:
[21:47] <_sj_> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don
[21:47] <Erik_Zachte> upper levels too high: it will make majority feel their budget is insufficient to make a difference
[21:47] <Anthere> very high amounts...
[21:48] <med> yannf: just an idea. Couldn't Mdk "lend" us a developper for instance?
[21:48] <Jamesday> Yes - donations that high do happen from private individuals in the US:)
[21:48] <dannyisback> no higher than $100
[21:48] <Angela> if people are donating 100000, they probably don't want to do that through paypal though
[21:48] <_sj_> I agree with Erik.
[21:48] <Anthere> node, translate in chinese please
[21:48] <_sj_> And the binary doubling looks a bit odd
[21:48] <Jamesday> lol - right:0
[21:48] <Anthere> yes, it makes perhaps people feel ridiculous
[21:48] <yannf> med: i suppose they are all overbooked
[21:48] <Angela> a maximum of 80 a month seems reasonable
[21:49] <jwales> I think Angela's point is compelling: big donations will not come typically through paypal.
[21:49] <Angela> people can make more via one-off donations if they want, or contact us for alternative ways of doing it
[21:49] <yannf> med: but anyway, that the wrong way
[21:49] <mav> OK - how about a top tier of 100 then?
[21:49] <med> yannf: sometimes they let a developper to work on a personal projet like 1/2 day a week. Why not asling?
[21:49] <mav> per month
[21:49] <_sj_> mav, that sounds reasonable
[21:49] <jwales> O.k., top tier of $100 per month is plenty plenty high enough. I agree with this now.
[21:49] <Angela> yes
[21:49] <Jamesday> Agreed - angela is entirely right about that.
[21:49] <med> yannf: well, i don't know. It was just an idea :)
[21:49] <Anthere> 99 a month
[21:49] <Anthere> is better than 100
[21:49] <dannyisback> why anthere
[21:50] <yannf> if we do, we control the thing, if they do they control it
[21:50] <Anthere> I always buy my dresses at 99
[21:50] <Anthere> not 100
[21:50] <Jamesday> perhaps we shoudl try not to play games and use even numbers instead of salesman numbers?
[21:50] <mav> keep numbers round
[21:50] <Anthere> tsss
[21:50] <yannf> med: we should keep control on the software devel
[21:50] <Angela> yeah, but we're not selling anything. People want to feel like they're giving more, not less
[21:50] <jwales> I have no opinion about round versus nonround numbers. Doesn't matter to me.
[21:50] <mav> about about Euros and other money?
[21:50] <med> yannf: you mean about the copyright?
[21:50] <Anthere> well, no real number
[21:51] <Anthere> square ones
[21:51] <jwales> I just note that all the donations to big organizations that I know of are always round numbers. We can assume they know what they are doing I guess.
[21:51] <Anthere> not 54.56 euros
[21:51] <mav> 100 Euros as top tier as well?
[21:51] <Angela> I think psychological pricing would have the opposite effect for donations as it would for sales
[21:51] <yannf> med: yes, but also features, etc.
[21:51] <Anthere> okay angela
[21:51] <jwales> Angela might be right; I just don't know. It probably matters very close to not at all either way.
[21:51] <Anthere> okay
[21:51] <Anthere> round numbers, up to 100
[21:51] <dannyisback> mav, what about canadian money and yen?
[21:52] <jwales> mav: the thing about different currencies and tiers is I *guarantee* you that people will complain if we call them "tiers" and it costs a different amount in different currencies.
[21:52] <dannyisback> 100 yen will not get us a cup of coffee
[21:52] <mav> 100 CAD, 100 EURO and a rond number almost as much value for Yen
[21:52] <mav> I guess
[21:52] <dannyisback> then keep it as dollars with translations to other currencies on the side
[21:53] <mav> OK
[21:53] <jwales> I would recommend leaving the tiers there as clues for people, friendly suggestions, but that we make sure that they know that it isn't a "tier of giving" that puts them into a special category...
[21:53] <Jamesday> jwales, agreed.. and cost of living and incomes differ very greatly. Just call them numbers is less likely to cause political trouble..
[21:53] <Anthere> what does tiers mean anyway ?
[21:53] <Erik_Zachte> could you add an edit box where people can fill another amount ?
[21:53] <dannyisback> tier = level
[21:53] <Angela> perhaps don't name it "tier 1" etc. Just give the amounts without mention of levels
[21:53] <jwales> Yes, allow people to fill in other amounts, for sure.
[21:54] <Angela> Erik_Zachte: I agree
[21:54] <Anthere> Agree with Angela
[21:54] <mav> should the primary amount be in dollars then? 90Euro (100 USD)
[21:54] <jwales> Right, that's what I would say, Angela.
[21:54] <dannyisback> mav, yes
[21:54] <Angela> do people paying in euros need to see the dollar amount?
[21:54] <Anthere> the lower amount needs to be lower in some currency than the current one
[21:54] <mav> keep the same real value in USD
[21:54] <jwales> Sounds fine to me. I don't mind being Euro-centric sometimes, either.
[21:54] <jwales> O.k., I think we have a rough consensus, can we move to the next?
[21:54] <jwales> Time is short.
[21:55] <jwales> How will the drive be publicized?
[21:55] <mav> angela ; people will wonder why USD has round numbers and the other currencies do not
[21:55] <jwales> (1) huge press release -- I think there's going to be a lot of coverage
[21:55] <dannyisback> in the 1 million press release?
[21:55] <mav> wait
[21:55] <jwales> (2) the usual link at the top of the pages
[21:55] <mav> I'm still not sure what to do
[21:55] <jwales> O.k., waiting.
[21:55] <jwales> :-)
[21:55] <Jamesday> Make them all round numbers - and let people choose the round number appropriate for them.
[21:55] <_sj_> mav : I think the suggestions should be round numbers in each currency
[21:55] <Angela> mav: I don't really mind either way
[21:55] <Anthere> mav, I am not sure here
[21:55] <Anthere> I may have misunderstood
[21:56] <jwales> Mav, I trust your judgment. Pick round numbers that won't make people yell at me.  :-)
[21:56] <mav> OK
[21:56] <Anthere> are you saying in euros, we will have numbers such as 14.56; 56.95 etc...
[21:56] <Anthere> this is bad
[21:56] <jwales> I'd say round numbers in dollars, and round-ish similar numbers in other currencies.
[21:56] <mav> I hope not
[21:56] <jwales> Right, Anthere is right.
[21:56] <mav> jwales; that would work
[21:56] <Angela> I just think people might prefer to pay £50 rather than £55.77
[21:56] <jwales> Just you know, round numbers in dollars, and similar round numbers in Euros, Yen, Cad.
[21:56] <Anthere> just do 10 eruos, 20 euros and do not bother
[21:56] <mav> such as 90 Euro
[21:56] <jwales> Yeah.
[21:57] <jwales> they are just suggestions, not tiers, so if anyone sees it and says it is unfair in some way, we will pour ice water on their head.
[21:57] <Anthere> okay, next point
[21:57] <jwales> "How will drive be publicized?"
[21:57] <mav> I'll try it both ways and give links in the mailing list to the different versions
[21:57] <Anthere> you will jimbo
[21:57] <Angela> and they'll be an option for "other amount"?
[21:57] <Angela> s/they'll/there will
[21:57] <dannyisback> 1 million press release should mention it
[21:58] <Anthere> well, publicized everywhere
[21:58] <Anthere> so we do not have the previous issue
[21:58] <mav> angela; I dunno if that is possible
[21:58] <Anthere> ie, ml
[21:58] <jwales> The usual, right? Press contacts, 1 million press release, top of all pages, the usual.
[21:58] <Anthere> pumps
[21:58] <Angela> mav: ok
[21:58] <_sj_> press release currently doesn't mention it.
[21:58] <Anthere> goings on
[21:58] <mav> I'll try
[21:58] <dannyisback> it should sj
[21:58] <_sj_> we will have to let all the translators know... yes.
[21:58] <Angela> I'm worried about the wikis saying they didn't know about it, and refusing to have the site notice up
[21:58] <jwales> I plan to personally call my slashdot contact this weekend to ask him to run this on Monday.
[21:58] <_sj_> jwales, you mean the whole release?
[21:59] <mav> It would be *really* nice if my goal bar could go at the top of every page
[21:59] <dannyisback> do we have representatives in all the major wikis to whom we can speak?
[21:59] <jwales> sj: I just mean to have slashdot run the 1m story, I doubt if they would run the whole release.
[21:59] <_sj_> ok, but with mention of the fundraiser?
[21:59] <Angela> sj: the press release should definitely mention it. That was the point of holding it up until Monday
[21:59] <Anthere> Angela, we must just say it proeminently
[21:59] <Anthere> everywhere
[21:59] <Anthere> as early as today
[21:59] <Anthere> 2 days notice is a minimum
[21:59] <mav> yes
[21:59] <_sj_> Anthere, yes.
[22:00] <Angela> how does the site notice go up? There's a automatic way to do that right?
[22:00] <mav> we need translations
[22:00] <Anthere> correct
[22:00] <_sj_> we still have translations of the old site notice
[22:00] <_sj_> we should decide (later) what this one will say, if it is to be different
[22:00] <jwales> O.k., so now we're talking about how to publicize it internally -- I would just say as broadly as possible in as many languages as possible as quickly as possible.
[22:00] <Angela> the translations can happen when it's up can't they? Last time, there was some sort of [edit] link until it was translated on ech wiki
[22:00] <_sj_> Angela: this was very frustrating
[22:01] <mav> brion; could http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Fund_drive be exported to the site notice?
[22:01] <dannyisback> we should try to be as prepared as possible, angela
[22:01] <_sj_> advance notice is better.
[22:01] <brion> mav: ?
[22:01] <_sj_> it is quite annoying to have an English message forced onto your nice catalan interface
[22:01] <Anthere> angela
[22:01] <Anthere> most users must know before the notice is up
[22:01] <_sj_> (especially if only an admin can modify it)
[22:01] <jwales> Well, we can work on it this weekend, going around to ambassadors everywhere and trying to get it translated early.
[22:01] <Angela> sj: but if those translations don't occur by Monday, will they have no message at all?
[22:01] <mav> brion; the fund drive bar
[22:01] <mav> I'd like to have the option of putting that on the top of every wikimedia project page
[22:02] <_sj_> Angela, we can work this out after the meeting. last time, everyone said
[22:02] <dannyisback> no, then we will have the english, but two days is a sufficient amount of time
[22:02] <jwales> Angela: maybe we can decide that on a case-by-case based later on, and we can just see how far we get with contacting people and getting translations this weekend.
[22:02] <_sj_> they would respond immediately to a new request for such a translation
[22:02] <_sj_> so that won't be a problem
[22:02] <_sj_> small wikis actually wanted the English message...
[22:02] <Anthere> yeah, within 6 hours, we should have many transaltions done
[22:02] <Anthere> I am sure
[22:02] <mav> brion; wait, that would kill the cache...
[22:02] <brion> mav: maybe. i don't think it would be very cache-friendly tho
[22:02] <jwales> We're actually already to item 6: "Will the template:fundraisingnotice be used on all wikis? Can this be added autmatically?
[22:02] <Angela> ok, but technically, where do those translations happen, and how does the site notice get put up?
[22:02] <jwales> Angela: I have no idea how anything works, to be honest. Better someone else answers that.
[22:02] <Anthere> yeah
[22:02] <_sj_> they happen on Translation requests
[22:02] <Anthere> who has the links
[22:03] <Anthere> brion ?
[22:03] <_sj_> and someone then populates the dbs appropriately
[22:03] <_sj_> (I think that part is done by hand)
[22:03] <Angela> sj: no, the translations can happen on each wiki can't they?
[22:03] <_sj_> just have Translation requests/fundraising-notice link directly
[22:03] <jwales> Ok, so we've also implicitly covered the last point: "Are the translations complete and ready to go live?
[22:03] <_sj_> to the template on each wiki
[22:04] <mav> I thought just putting something on the site notice makes it go live
[22:04] <brion> Anthere: i don't know anything about that.
[22:04] <jwales> The answer is "Not yet, but we will try hard to get it done this weekend.""
[22:04] <_sj_> (and don't protect those templates while translations are going on)
[22:04] <_sj_> mav: then we should turn that bit off
[22:04] <Anthere> shaihulud, do you know how we put up the notice on all wikis ?
[22:04] <Angela> isn't mediawiki:sitenotice already protected though?
[22:04] <mav> use [view source] to get the source
[22:05] <Angela> hmmm. It is on fr, not on en
[22:05] <mav> why unprotect?
[22:05] <_sj_> we can unprotect sitenotice, and remove it from automatic-display
[22:05] <_sj_> so that non-admin translators can modify it
[22:05] <_sj_> (most translators are not admins)
[22:05] <_sj_> then reprotect and display the sitenotice on monday
[22:05] <mav> won't it take a few days for the cache to update so that each page has the notice?
[22:06] <Angela> sj: we could have a page on meta for non-admins to make the translation, then stewards could put it up on wikis without admins
[22:06] <_sj_> angela, yes, that would be the by-hand solution
[22:06] <Anthere> this is really non efficient :-(
[22:07] <mav> it would be nice to just flip one switch
[22:07] <Angela> well, since it's already protected, we'd have to manually unprotect it anyway
[22:07] <_sj_> I think both ways are reasonably efficient, for such a short message; don't have a preference.
[22:07] <mav> and each site notice is displayed
[22:07] <Angela> so manually adding to a protected page seems easier than going round protecting and unprotecting the messages
[22:08] <jwales> Ok, I think that more or less covers it.
[22:08] <mav> so who is the point person for coordinating the site notice?
[22:08] <dannyisback> sj?
[22:08] <Anthere> I go take care of goings on and ml
[22:08] <jwales> I unvolunteer. I'm the weakest wiki editor here.
[22:08] <Angela> in what way does it need co-ordinating?
[22:08] <mav> lol
[22:08] <Anthere> not notice, I understand not how it works
[22:08] <Angela> can't people just translate it
[22:08] <mav> to make sure it goes live
[22:09] <_sj_> Also, a few WPs didn't want the site notice at all last fundraiser...
[22:09] <mav> for each wiki
[22:09] <_sj_> yes danny?
[22:09] <mav> if they are using our servers, then tough
[22:09] <dannyisback> i was nominating you for pointman
[22:09] <Angela> that would have to be a steward since they can get admin access to any wiki
[22:09] <jwales> Unless there's some really extraordinary reason against it, I am with mav on that.
[22:09] <_sj_> mav, I will do that
[22:09] <Anthere> Angela, it is for you then
[22:09] <mav> cool
[22:09] <_sj_> I can ask a steward for help once the translations are ready...
[22:09] <_sj_> or angela, if you want. (:
[22:09] <mav> oh wait, good point
[22:09] <Anthere> I agree with mav as well
[22:10] <mav> this should be a steward
[22:10] <jwales> We're all in this together. I understand if people don't like a shock or a sudden English message, but I really think people have to pull together on understanding that we need money.
[22:10] <dannyisback> exactly
[22:10] <Anthere> hmmm
[22:10] <Angela> there are 8 stewards, so if non-admins need to edit it, it shouldn't be too much of a delay before a steward can help
[22:10] <mav> yes
[22:10] <jwales> O.k., who wants to talk grants now?
[22:10] <Anthere> me
[22:10] <Anthere> errr, I
[22:11] <jwales> We spend 1 hour and 11 minutes on the first part, not too bad.
[22:11] <Angela> ok
[22:11] <Anthere> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004#Some_points
[22:11] <mav> are we done with the fund drive then?
[22:11] <jwales> 'me is fine.  :-)
[22:11] <dannyisback> yes
[22:11] <mav> I think we should talk technical load issues
[22:11] <jwales> mav, I think so. Unless anyone has any last questions or comments or thoughts.
[22:11] <jwales> O.k., quickly on technical load issues.
[22:11] <Anthere> technical load issues ?
[22:11] <mav> we may be a huge spike in traffic
[22:12] <mav> and need to make sure we can handle that in a graceful way
[22:12] <_sj_> I don't think we will be able to handle it gracefully.
[22:12] <_sj_> </pessimist>
[22:12] <jwales> Jamesday and brion can probably speak to that.
[22:12] <mav> turn watchlists off
[22:12] <jwales> Our squids do a very nice job of spikes from not-logged-in people.
[22:12] <Jamesday> Watchlists aren't a major factor at present.
[22:12] <mav> and some other non-essential features
[22:12] <Anthere> no search
[22:12] <Jamesday> Big issues are:
[22:13] <Jamesday> we hit 100Mbit/s on Wednesday for several hours. Is that a hard limit?
[22:13] <dannyisback> the absence of a search is, i believe, a major flaw here
[22:13] <jwales> Jamesday: !!!!!????!!!!! 100Mbs?
[22:13] <mav> an absence of a website would be worse :)
[22:13] <Jamesday> jwales see Wed in weekly graph here: http://65.59.189.201/www.bomis-total/www.bomis-total.html
[22:13] <jwales> Yeah, Michael just showed me.
[22:14] <mav> anything we don't need that can be turned off for the two week?
[22:14] <brion> well, FYI i'm not going to be available beginning of next week as I'll be at a conference for my day job.
[22:14] <Erik_Zachte> is the dedicated search server coming up soon ?
[22:14] <Jamesday> So.. can we change that - maybe put a Squid or two on a different port to raise the limit?
[22:14] <mav> ah carp @brion
[22:14] <Anthere> brion...
[22:14] <Jamesday> dedicated search server is broken, no eta. We're testing code which kills slow queries. It's made it possible to turn on search off peak at present.
[22:14] <Angela> turning things off when we are trying to convinve people to give us money doesn't seem a good idea
[22:14] <Anthere> what are the most consuming features ?
[22:15] <Jamesday> It _may_ be able to increase thousehours.
[22:15] <_sj_> brion: for how many days?
[22:15] <brion> _sj_: sunday through tuesday
[22:15] <Anthere> depends on the features angela
[22:15] <brion> i should have net access but will be busy.
[22:15] <jwales> I will find out if 100Mbs is a hard limit.
[22:15] <jwales> Wait, of course it is.
[22:15] <jwales> We have a 10/100 switch.
[22:15] <mav> jwales; are there any servers we could borrow for squids?
[22:16] <Angela> people will go mad if you turn off watchlists
[22:16] <Jamesday> Right - so, can output from one or more Squids bypass that switch?
[22:16] <Jamesday> Wathclists don't need to be turned off
[22:16] <_sj_> jwales, or could we rent extra servers from the colo for the week?
[22:16] <mav> good idea
[22:16] <Jamesday> I'll simply set up the query killer to kill any really slow watchlist queries, as we do now (as of 24 or so hours ago) for slow search.
[22:16] <jwales> It is possible. I will inquire, but it is already past business hours on Friday, so on Monday I may be scrambling.
[22:17] <Jamesday> That automatically adjusts based on site load.
[22:17] <Jamesday> The killers for Monday are: bandwidth - 100Mb/s - and enough Squids.
[22:17] <Ryo_> evening
[22:17] <jwales> Also, keep in mind that if we have to cut functionality on some things on Monday, we should link to the fund drive page.
[22:17] <Jamesday> Apache look OK and we can control the database well enough.
[22:17] <jwales> I think bandwidth bottleneck can be gotten around in an emergency on Monday.
[22:17] <Anthere> Angela, it will be good, it will reduce edit war -> less connexions
[22:18] <brion> Jamesday: what's the status on some of the new machines that have been down?
[22:18] <brion> can we repurpose those or do we just have to wait them out?
[22:18] <Jamesday> Bacon is down, no known cause, jwales will have to look at it.
[22:18] <Jamesday> Maybe go back to maker is my guess.
[22:18] <Jamesday> baon - new search server
[22:18] <mav> brion; if the database goes down, then what happens to the fundraising page on the WMF wiki?
[22:18] <brion> mav: RIP
[22:19] <mav> that's what I thought
[22:19] <Jamesday> Albert is useless as a database slave - it's barely keeping up with replication with RAID 5 disks. We'd have to switch it to RAID 10 and won't have people/time even if we wanted to.
[22:19] <mav> we need to point to a static version
[22:19] <mav> in case of downtime
[22:19] <Jamesday> More code supporting load sharing would be nice - can't shift a very high percentage to Suda righ tnow.
[22:20] <Angela> could we have a static copy on the wikidev wiki just in case?
[22:20] <mav> so could somebody create a static version of the fundraising page on monday and link that from the site down message?
[22:20] <mav> the *current* version of the fundraising page at wikimediafoundation.org
[22:21] <Angela> Is the site down message only editable by developers?
[22:22] <jwales> O.k., grants now?
[22:22] <Jamesday> We will go read only if necessary, by the way.
[22:22] <mav> website - one more point
[22:22] <jwales> A lot of this can be determined on the fly at the time...
[22:22] <Jamesday> But that's a last resort.
[22:22] <mav> it needs to be moved
[22:22] <jwales> Ok, one more point, mav?
[22:23] <mav> should the WMF wiki be moved to wikimediafoundation.org ?
[22:23] <mav> or to just wikimedia.org?
[22:23] <Angela> wikimediafoundation.org would be best
[22:23] <mav> I agree
[22:23] <mav> when should that happen?
[22:23] <jwales> Sounds fine to me.
[22:23] <mav> it takes a few days for DNS to update
[22:24] <Anthere> wikimediafoundation.org
[22:24] <Anthere> since we do not own the other adress in .com
[22:24] <Angela> brion: how easy would it be to move wikimedia.org/wiki to wikimediafoundation.org/wiki? Is there any chance that could that be done now please?
[22:24] <mav> OK - so we will do that once the WMF wiki is OK enough to go live
[22:24] <jwales> We should not need a dns update.
[22:25] <mav> yeah - I think you are right
[22:25] <brion> Angela: moment
[22:25] <jwales> ok
[22:25] <mav> both sites exist already
[22:25] <mav> we just need to change the content
[22:25] <Anthere> what should rather be done
[22:25] <mav> silly me :)
[22:25] <jwales> The wiki is going to replace the static, right?
[22:25] <mav> yes
[22:25] <Anthere> is taht all referecnes to donations are to go to the other site
[22:26] <jwales> So long as the static is moved somewhere we can find it, we should be fine.
[22:26] <jwales> Ok, grants now?
[22:26] <mav> we should keep the static up for a while
[22:26] <jwales> Ok
[22:26] <mav> grants
[22:26] <mav> danny?
[22:27] <dannyisback> we have a great opportunity with lounsbery
[22:27] <dannyisback> i think we can ask for as much as 100k
[22:27] <Anthere> remind us the link please
[22:27] <mav> cool
[22:27] <dannyisback> www.rlounsbery.org
[22:27] <Anthere> tx
[22:27] <dannyisback> i spent a good part of last nite looking at what they do
[22:27] <dannyisback> they focus on several things
[22:27] <dannyisback> science and history education
[22:28] <dannyisback> and franco-american cooperation
[22:28] <dannyisback> (lounsbery was an american killed in france in ww1)
[22:28] <Angela> and they just want a three page application for this?
[22:28] <dannyisback> yup
[22:28] <Angela> When should that be written by?
[22:28] <dannyisback> their next board meeting for which we are eligible is january
[22:28] <dannyisback> HOWEVER
[22:28] <_sj_> terry! hi
[22:29] <dannyisback> we should get the grant material in as early as possible
[22:29] <mav> hi terry
[22:29] <dannyisback> hi terry!
[22:29] <terryfoote> Hello!
[22:29] <_sj_> danny, do they offer feedback the way NEH did?
[22:29] <dannyisback> just talking grants
[22:29] <Angela> dannyisback: what timeline were you thinking for this?
[22:29] <dannyisback> unclear
[22:29] <_sj_> if we send them a draft beforehand, that is?
[22:29] <dannyisback> i want to do it within the next few weeks
[22:29] <jwales> I bought Terry in because he has been wanting to help with grants.
[22:29] <jwales> He works here with me.
[22:29] <dannyisback> what we need to do however
[22:30] <dannyisback> is to determine exactly what we want the money for
[22:30] <mav> textbooks :)
[22:30] <dannyisback> they would support something project specific
[22:30] <Anthere> as early is when ?
[22:30] <jwales> My proposal based on several factors in reading through what they normally fund and their mission statement,
[22:30] <Anthere> do we have to have a specific project ?
[22:30] <_sj_> developing a suitable database for language-neutral species data...
[22:30] <Anthere> what do we have to give them back ?
[22:30] <jwales> as well as on some information I got from someone who is somehow connected with them,
[22:30] <dannyisback> yes, sj
[22:30] <dannyisback> they have an immense interest in biology
[22:31] <mav> biology textbooks :)
[22:31] <dannyisback> which is something we are weak in
[22:31] <jwales> is that they could fund software development for wikispecies with a particular eye towards it being more general than that as well.
[22:31] <Anthere> jimbo ?
[22:31] <jwales> That is, add features to mediawiki to help handle structured data more generally.
[22:32] <mav> biology textbooks in English and French
[22:32] <dannyisback> a biology textbook in english and french, coupled with development of wikispecies and new biology related content for wikipedia
[22:32] <jwales> Because I think that's a huge avenue of future development in wiki software.
[22:32] <_sj_> also cataloguing ecosystems and ways of life around the world
[22:32] <Anthere> species and possibly ecoregion ?
[22:32] <jwales> Well, we have to keep it narrow enough. A bunch of different ideas would be difficult to pitch.
[22:32] <Anthere> perhaps GIS information ?
[22:32] <_sj_> we should develop each of these ideas
[22:32] <_sj_> so that we have a hat to draw from when another opportunity comes up
[22:32] <Anthere> such as http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cozone_pal%C3%A9arctique%3A_plantes_%C3%A0_graines_par_nom_scientifique_%28A%29
[22:32] <Anthere> here
[22:32] <Angela> jwales have you seen http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata ? Perhaps something related to that, which aims to benefit wikispecies could be part of the proposal
[22:33] <_sj_> ('develop' as in write pitches for)
[22:33] <jwales> What I would recommend is that we pitch the general "structured data in a wiki" idea, but with wikispecies as the pilot.
[22:33] <jwales> Yes, Angela, that's exactly what I have in mind.
[22:33] <dannyisback> yes, jimbo
[22:33] <Erik_Zachte> yet wikidata is a general solution, with huge spinoff, also to wikispecies
[22:33] <jwales> Precisely.
[22:33] <mav> we could print a lot of textbooks for African high shcool students for 50K
[22:34] <dannyisback> we should, however, be even more focused than general wikidata
[22:34] <dannyisback> printing costs are expensive, mav
[22:34] <dannyisback> especially 4 color separations
[22:34] <jwales> But I think that a successful pitch to Lounsbury would focus on both the "blue sky" of how great this will be for scientific progress generally, but also "practical" in that we have a specific application which can use it right up front.
[22:34] <Anthere> about 5 euros a wikireader
[22:34] <mav> 10 bucks each I heard
[22:34] <_sj_> jwales, right
[22:34] <Jamesday> General structured data sounds good - worth recalling also tht Creative Commons is investigatign MediaWiki for their CC-catalogue so wikispecies may not be the only party wanting/needing it soon.
[22:35] <Erik_Zachte> distributing costs as wel, why not print locally at some 3rd world country ?
[22:35] <Anthere> 5 euros are they sold
[22:35] <_sj_> we have a number of active biologists
[22:35] <jwales> I think seeking funding for book distribution is great, but reading over the mission statement and typical grants of lounsbery, it is not right for them.
[22:35] <dannyisback> we also have some good early material in wikibooks and wikiversity
[22:35] <Anthere> what would they prefer ?
[22:35] <_sj_> electric-goat, anthere
[22:35] <dannyisback> no, jimbo is right
[22:35] <Jamesday> mav, pring publication is much safer legally as a different foundation. You don't get the excellent DMCA and Communications Decency Act protection in print.
[22:35] <Angela> I agree. The Lousberry one should focus on Wikispecies. We need another grant to focus on distribution
[22:35] <_sj_> tuf-kat... and we can point to the success of ToL
[22:35] <dannyisback> we would be better off collecting and cataloguing the information
[22:36] <mav> we should send them both proposals
[22:36] * Anthere thinks writing takes a long time, reading as well, and no electric goat means anything to her
[22:36] <jwales> Mav, but just wait until later in the meeting.  :-)
[22:36] <dannyisback> no, we should send one proposal
[22:36] <jwales> I have the perfect foundation who wants to give us money for textbooks in Africa.
[22:36] <brion> Angela: i can't get it working. ask whoever set it up in the first place.
[22:36] <Jamesday> jwales, then Wikimedia Publishing Foundation needs to be set up, IMO:)
[22:36] <Angela> brion: ok. Thanks for trying :)
[22:36] <jwales> So, sending both to Lounsbury might just confuse them, and we have an avenue as well for the other thing.
[22:37] <Angela> I wasn't suggesting both to Lounsbery
[22:37] <Jamesday> That can then take all the physical publishing risks.
[22:37] <dannyisback> so is it agreed that we focus with lounsbery on wikispecies, with the understanding that it can be expanded into similar projects
[22:37] <dannyisback> wikigeology, wikispace-stuff, etc.
[22:37] <mav> agree
[22:37] <Jamesday> Sounds like an excellent match for them.
[22:37] <dannyisback> they like start up funding and creating infrastructure
[22:37] <mav> Erik's idea for wikidata
[22:38] <Angela> yes, but I also think we should be getting a different grant from somewhere else for distribution. I don't think we need to limit ourselves to one grant at a time
[22:38] <jwales> Yes, startup funding and infrastructure, they love that kind of thing.
[22:38] <dannyisback> of course, angela
[22:38] <jwales> Right, well, the main purpose of this meeting is just to communicate with each other about the opportunities that already exist, so I should move on to the next one,
[22:38] <jwales> The Shuttleworth foundation
[22:39] <jwales> http://www.tsf.org.za/
[22:39] <dannyisback> in south africa?
[22:39] <mav> sweet
[22:39] <TimShell> Are we keeping a list of potential supporters anywhere ?
[22:39] <dannyisback> supporting social innovation
[22:39] <Angela> this was the one about the children's Wikipedia right?
[22:39] <jwales> I will quote from the email...
[22:40] <dannyisback> i am starting to collect that, tim
[22:40] <jwales> "We have recently decided to roll out Wikipedia to the schools
[22:40] <jwales> in our tuXlab programme (where we install OS computer labs in schools in
[22:40] <jwales> our area, 55 so far)."
[22:40] <jwales> "We are now interested in contributing content to Wikibooks, as we
[22:40] <jwales> believe it to be an excellent channel of distribution."
[22:40] <mav> wow!
[22:40] <dannyisback> they are very in to open source
[22:41] <jwales> "
[22:41] <jwales> "We would be happy to help distribute the CD. We can start with the
[22:41] <jwales> schools, individuals and organisations involved in our projects. We also
[22:41] <jwales> have an education team working with schools that aren't necessarily in
[22:41] <jwales> the tuXlab programme and we will be expanding into the Eastern Cape soon
[22:41] <jwales> - an area where there is a definite need for education tools of any kind. "
[22:41] <_sj_> Tim: an old list is at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants#Possible_sources_of_funding
[22:41] <jwales> Ah, here's the bit I was looking for:
[22:41] <jwales> "And we agree on the free/open content. We require the content
[22:41] <jwales> created through our projects to be open content and we are attempting to
[22:41] <jwales> make it available via the web as well as on CD and in hard copy format
[22:41] <jwales> in order to reach the widest possible audience."
[22:41] <_sj_> jwales, are you sure you didn't write that yourself?  :)
[22:42] <jwales> sj, wait until you read this part:
[22:42] <jwales> "Neutrality is no
[22:42] <jwales> problem for us. We create and collate text of educational value, mostly
[22:42] <jwales> within the framework of the South African Education Department's schools
[22:42] <jwales> curriculum and in the areas of maths, science, literacy and
[22:42] <jwales> entrepreneurship. These should be neutral in essence. We support
[22:42] <dannyisback> some comments
[22:42] <jwales> learning, not specific view points."
[22:42] <dannyisback> they do not fund international programs and institutions
[22:42] <jwales> O.k., anyhow...
[22:42] <dannyisback> what do they mean by that
[22:42] <mav> sounds like a good fit
[22:43] <dannyisback> also they do not like funding hardware
[22:43] <Anthere> good
[22:43] <jwales> Danny, I am not sure what they mean by "international programs and institutions" but I think
[22:43] <mav> hardware funding is done by readers very well
[22:43] <jwales> what they mean is not that they can't work with us, but that they have a mandate to do good in South Africa.
[22:44] <Angela> it shouldn't be an issue that they won't fund hardware if they can fund distribution, we can find other sponsors for hardware
[22:44] <dannyisback> ok
[22:44] <mav> we could distribute hard copies in South Africa
[22:44] <dannyisback> another criteria is monitoring and evaluation
[22:44] <dannyisback> we should put some thought into that
[22:44] <mav> but we would still have the content
[22:44] <Erik_Zachte> dannys " no purchasing or upgrading computer hardware or software, except as part of a programmatic effort"
[22:44] <Erik_Zachte> is this a progr. effort ? I would think so
[22:44] <dannyisback> yes, erik
[22:44] <Anthere> do we know if we have any contributor from some african countries ?
[22:45] <dannyisback> we have an afrikaans wikipedia
[22:45] <dannyisback> and someone who has been doing some work on smaller languages in south africa
[22:45] <dannyisback> sotho and zulu i believe
[22:45] <jwales> mav: right.
[22:46] <Angela> africaans is still fairly small. 3899 articles
[22:46] <jwales> Danny's friends :-) from butterfly-works are spreading the word in the areas where they work.
[22:46] <_sj_> wow, that's amazing.
[22:46] <_sj_> there was a poster to the wikitech list over the summer from zambia
[22:46] <_sj_> he was using WP in schools... I wonder if this is related to his project
[22:46] <dannyisback> i also have some connections in zimbabwe
[22:46] <dannyisback> northern rural areas there
[22:46] <dannyisback> using computers in education
[22:47] <dannyisback> do you think it would matter to shuttlesworth that we are not really well established in south africa to date?
[22:47] <Angela> there's also FHSST who are interested in working with us. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Staff_lounge#Collaboration_with_FHSST
[22:48] <Anthere> is it necessarily in south africa ?
[22:48] <Anthere> or is north africa acceptableas well ?
[22:48] <dannyisback> shuttlesworth is in south africa
[22:48] <mav> we could just focus our efforts there; they would get the hard copies
[22:48] <Erik_Zachte> danny - we are, most South Africans speak English right ? so af: is not all they look at
[22:48] <mav> of whatever we produce with their grant
[22:49] <dannyisback> yes, erik, i am just thinking of wikipedia contacts in south africa
[22:50] <jwales> Well, the Shuttlesworth people are preparing a proposal for us, it was promised to me by this week, but is late.
[22:50] <mav> sweet - they write the proposal AND give us money to implement it?
[22:50] <jwales> We also have another proposal from the Beck Foundation, a proposal that we should create what they call "kidopedia".
[22:50] <dannyisback> that is a small amount
[22:50] <jwales> mav: well, we shall see what they are proposing. No money has been mentioned yet.
[22:50] <dannyisback> 5000, if i remember correctly
[22:50] <jwales> Right, the Beck people can give $5,000-$10,000.
[22:51] <_sj_> jwales, do they have a specific request?
[22:51] <mav> simple.wikipedia.org
[22:51] <_sj_> in terms of size, coverage, etc
[22:51] <Angela> simple is not aimed at children
[22:51] <mav> hm
[22:51] <jwales> Well, mav, they were extremely excited to see simple, but yes, what Angela said.
[22:51] <Anthere> well, not aimed at adult either
[22:51] <dannyisback> it can be redirected for children
[22:51] <jwales> Angela, as they reviewed simple, they felt that much of it could be repurposed for children. I have no opinion on that, not having looked at it closely enough yet.
[22:51] <dannyisback> putting together material for kids is not that difficult
[22:52] <Angela> it's small enough it could still be changed into whatever we want, but people seem to have been using it mostly for a translation basis for the "list of 1000 articles every Wikipedia should have" project
[22:52] * dannyisback has written extensively for kids in the past
[22:52] <jwales> What I told the beck people is that if they have some specific specs, it is much easier for our volunteers to work to those specs, rather than
[22:52] <dannyisback> well, angela, we start a new list
[22:52] <jwales> just say "make some stuff for kids".
[22:52] <dannyisback> 3,000 articles every kids encyclopedia should have
[22:52] <Anthere> may I ?
[22:52] <dannyisback> you may
[22:53] <Angela> what would the money actually be used for if we started such a project?
[22:53] <Anthere> all your proposal aim at using content we already have
[22:53] <Anthere> may I ?
[22:53] <Anthere> essentially english content
[22:53] <Anthere> would there be any possibility that a grant is used to develop
[22:53] <dannyisback> not necessarily, anthere
[22:53] <Anthere> content on one pedia less developed ?
[22:53] <jwales> So they just sent me some outline stuff about "Architecture".
[22:54] <Anthere> not necessarily what ?
[22:54] <jwales> The idea is that they would donate half up front for the production of a book, and half upon completion.
[22:54] <jwales> We would not need to specific our needs exactly.
[22:54] <dannyisback> i mean, we could do other languages as well
[22:54] <Anthere> we could
[22:54] <dannyisback> and foster greater cooperation
[22:54] <Anthere> but practically, you consider doing books for africans in english
[22:54] <dannyisback> between existing projects
[22:55] <TimShell> The talk so far has been about specific grants for specific programs...but,
[22:55] <Erik_Zachte> other languages will follow automatically if the project goes well
[22:55] <mav> jwales; what would the money be used for?
[22:55] <TimShell> Are we talking to anyone to grant us money just to grow wikipedia?
[22:55] <Anthere> yeah, ggod point
[22:55] <dannyisback> which money, mav
[22:55] <Anthere> publishing yes, it needs money
[22:55] <dannyisback> tim, 10 percent of each grant should be set aside for that
[22:55] <mav> the money for the kids ency
[22:55] <dannyisback> at least
[22:55] <Angela> 10000 isn't enough to pay people, so would the money just act like a general donation, and the content would still be written by volunteers?
[22:55] <dannyisback> and the content developed for these projects will help wikipedia grow
[22:56] <jwales> mav: they don't really care.
[22:56] <mav> ok
[22:56] <Anthere> yes, but if not for hardware ,what can we propose them ?
[22:56] <jwales> Right, Angela... the way I have discussed it with them, it's more like they are paying us to create the content.
[22:56] <Angela> TimShell: most grant applications want you to specify what you want it for - they don't seem to like just generalised ideas like "growing Wikipedia"
[22:56] <jwales> How we accomplish that is our problem.
[22:57] <_sj_> TimShell: it would be nice to spec out how to grow wikipedia
[22:57] <mav> we should concentrate efforst via grants to grow parts of Wikipedia that are weak
[22:57] <yannf> Angela: with US$ 10,000, we could pay a translator/writer for 4/5 months in europe
[22:57] <_sj_> with metrics and milestones.
[22:57] <mav> yannf; great idea!
[22:57] <Anthere> or someone to go look for other editors
[22:57] <_sj_> that would be a way to pick up some large organizational grants
[22:57] <yannf> but maybe 1/2 years in africa or india
[22:58] <TimShell> People seem to love Wikipedia - that's the basis of our fundraising drive. Charitable foundations might love us in the same way.
[22:58] <Anthere> like contacting specialists in universities
[22:58] <Angela> re-purposing simple for this might be a good idea, since it's been going along a bit unpurposely for a while. We don't even have policies on reading ages or things like that, so this could be helpful to give that Wikipedia some direction
[22:58] <dannyisback> in the case of most grants, we will need a professional evaluator for the projects
[22:58] <mav> I think it was Danny that had the idea of paying people in univeristy in Africa to translate
[22:58] <_sj_> jwales: they are content to have just architecture for now?
[22:58] <jwales> Tim: yes, but as a practical fact, charitable foundations don't just make whimsical grants based on loving something. They have a fiduciary responsibility to research and give grants that are specifically consistent with their mission.
[22:58] <dannyisback> yes, mav, my idea
[22:59] <Angela> yannf: is one person working for 5 months really the best use of the money though?
[22:59] <_sj_> dannyisback: I think that would work well.
[22:59] <jwales> Yes, there might be issues with that (paying people) but I don't see any other way right now to get good content in swahili, etc.
[22:59] <Anthere> what would be best use angela ?
[22:59] <_sj_> any more feedback from our potential partner down there?
[22:59] <dannyisback> also, working on specific projects is a good pr tool that can bring us money
[22:59] <_sj_> jwales: in most countries, a great way is just to work through universities
[22:59] <yannf> Angela: well, could 5 translators in arabic, hindi, etc.
[23:00] <Erik_Zachte> paying for (translation of) content seems unwikipedia like
[23:00] <yannf> *could be
[23:00] <jwales> After all, we're a multinational corporation, aren't we supposed to outsource jobs to low wage nations?
[23:00] <Angela> you think one person could create this content by themselves in 5 months?
[23:00] <jwales> ;-)
[23:00] <mav> better idea; pay a teacher part time to do this; have the whole class translate as a project
[23:00] <_sj_> the students are interested in projects like this, and would like international exposure
[23:00] <Anthere> erik, I agree
[23:00] <Jamesday> THere are some groups in Africa which like us and presumably have dual language speakers.. would it perhaps be a good idea to see whether very small per article donations for those groups would be good for them and us?
[23:00] <Anthere> plus it is not very fun to do
[23:00] <_sj_> I think we need coordinators in those schools,
[23:00] <Jamesday> That is.. offer money to charities based on translations, so thy convert donated labor to money
[23:00] <_sj_> rather than channels of money-per-article
[23:00] <mav> pay the teachers
[23:00] <jwales> I don't feel I have enough knowledge of conditions on the ground in Africa to make good predictions.
[23:00] <_sj_> perhaps a small stipend for the coordinators would be appropriate
[23:01] <Anthere> I think africans should PARTICIPATE not just merely translate
[23:01] <_sj_> yes, Anthere
[23:01] <dannyisback> the idea of students in universities is that they require money just to live
[23:01] <dannyisback> they do not have the leisure to translate or write articles
[23:01] <_sj_> dannyisback: there is a lot of leisure time
[23:01] <dannyisback> and their living expenses are minimal
[23:01] <mav> part of the grant money could be used to buy computers for the translators to work on
[23:01] <_sj_> at U. Nairobi,
[23:01] <jwales> But I did get a report from butterfly-works, "the world starts with me" people, who do a lot of work there, and they said that the concept of volunteering is quite different there.
[23:01] <_sj_> at least when it is in session and not closed due to strikes
[23:01] <jwales> The poor people have to work all day just to survive.
[23:01] <dannyisback> it can be something like a wikipedia sponsored scholarship
[23:02] <jwales> The middle class like to "volunteer" for social prestige, but then never show up to do anything.
[23:02] <_sj_> if you are at a university, you are not one of the people who has to work all day just to survive
[23:02] <jwales> They were quite skeptical of us finding people willing to write for wikipedia for free.
[23:02] <Jamesday> OK. Not a good time to money case then.
[23:02] <dannyisback> i got the same message from them, jimbo
[23:02] <mav> pay them
[23:02] <jwales> However, anyone new to the concept of wikipedia thinks it is impossible everywhere, so we don't yet know.
[23:02] <Erik_Zachte> so are we trying to get grants or to bestow them :)
[23:02] <Erik_Zachte> giving grants is some other peoples' core business
[23:02] <mav> how much does it cost to live in big African cities?
[23:02] <dannyisback> pay them as a means of starting the project
[23:03] <Jamesday> Though.. wondering how much money would be necessary to pay people so they don't need to work, in some very low cost countries might be doable.
[23:03] <jwales> Well, for *now* there is no sense in us actually contemplating paying anyone, Erik, that's for sure.
[23:03] <mav> I know tech workers in parts of India work for $300 a month
[23:03] <jwales> We need a lot more practical info, and I'm basically on a learning mission to find out what I need to know.
[23:03] <dannyisback> that is why it is important that you go to africa and india
[23:03] <jwales> I think it would seem bizarre to our volunteers to hire people in Western countries to do things similar to what we all do for free.
[23:04] <dannyisback> that would depend on how it is presented to them
[23:04] <jwales> But, to hire college students struggling to get an education in Africa, to help their own people, for a relative pittance, it's hard to see who could be upset.
[23:04] <mav> yep
[23:04] <Jamesday> Yes.
[23:04] <dannyisback> yes
[23:04] <Jamesday> Very low living costs and enabling people is a good mixture.
[23:04] <mav> coordinators would be good to have too
[23:05] <jwales> If you think it's unfair for someone to get $300 a month to work on wikipedia, you are welcome ot move to Africa to help them... :-)
[23:05] <jwales> But this is just speculation for the future.
[23:05] <mav> this could be part of Wikiversity
[23:05] <yannf> Jamesday: in india, a teacher earns about 100$ a month
[23:05] <mav> yikes!
[23:05] <Anthere> but you cannot compare
[23:05] <Anthere> with 100 of month, the guy survive
[23:06] <Anthere> while here you would be in the street
[23:06] <mav> double that then
[23:06] <Jamesday> Yannf, yes.. something to think about if we want transalations into languages of such low cost places. Though free internet with encyclopedia writing time for access might be a beter deal. Hard to say:)
[23:06] <Anthere> 200 a month I am in the street
[23:06] <Anthere> I know
[23:06] <jwales> Right, comparison is impossible. But it does mean that we could hire people, if it ends up being needed.
[23:06] <mav> 200 a month and I starve
[23:06] <Anthere> 200 a month, I got sick
[23:06] <mav> slowly though
[23:07] <jwales> I drink more wine than that.
[23:07] <_sj_> jamesday: I think providing free 'net access for contributors would make the most sense.
[23:07] <mav> the point is that a little grant money could be leveraged far is spent in many places
[23:07] <jwales> Well, anyhow... those are the 3 grant making institutions with whom we have current contact that looks favorable.
[23:07] <Anthere> nod
[23:07] <_sj_> danny, what was the name of the other educational group?
[23:07] <jwales> I think that our experience on these deals may serve us ver well going forard.
[23:08] <jwales> 'very well going forward'.
[23:08] <_sj_> (in uganda et al)
[23:08] <dannyisback> which other group?
[23:08] <dannyisback> the world starts with us?
[23:08] <mav> is somebody coordinating all this?
[23:08] <yannf> sure, tons of people in india/africa would love to write articles for $100 a month
[23:08] <Anthere> our experience should be share though
[23:08] <_sj_> I thought TWSWU had a grantor
[23:08] <dannyisback> i am trying to mav
[23:08] <mav> I volunteer Danny :)
[23:08] <jwales> the world starts with me, see http://www.butterfly-works.org/
[23:08] <jwales> sj, you met them in NYC?
[23:08] <dannyisback> they are butterfly
[23:08] <_sj_> No such luck.
[23:08] <_sj_> ok, makes sense danny
[23:09] <Erik_Zachte> I'm not sure there aren't enough people in Africa/India who would contribute the wikipedia way out of conviction if they had facilities
[23:09] <jwales> great, great people.
[23:09] <Erik_Zachte> so better to provide low cost hw/internet access
[23:09] <jwales> Erik might be right; we just don't know right now. At least, I don't know.
[23:09] <Anthere> has to have net access....
[23:09] <dannyisback> i think we should find out more from people who are familiar with the cultures of those countries
[23:09] <dannyisback> like we said earlier, the idea of volunteering may be different there
[23:09] <mav> yes
[23:10] <Angela> yes, but is providing net access really something we should be doing? Are there not organisations better placed to provide that sort of thing?
[23:10] <jwales> One thing I feel quite confident about...
[23:10] <Anthere> not provinding angela
[23:10] <Anthere> paying for
[23:10] <jwales> It's quite easy for well meaning good people in wealthy western countries to want to do good, but to end up just wasting resources by not understanding the local situation.
[23:10] <yannf> hindi has probably the lowest rate articles/people
[23:10] <mav> good point @jwales
[23:10] <Jamesday> jwales, yes - understanding local conditions is vital.
[23:10] <jwales> Well, I'm with Angela, even if it's about "paying for". It seems an odd fit for us.
[23:11] <Erik_Zachte> hindi : that is partly due to input difficulty
[23:11] <jwales> Unless we decide to run advertising to raise huge amounts of money to really make a major impact, but that's a story for another day. :-)
[23:11] <TimShell> I'm curious about how well the concept of NPOV translates across cultures
[23:11] <TimShell> but that's something else...
[23:11] <yannf> Erik_Zachte: not really
[23:11] <Angela> perhaps grants to work on the technical issues the hindi Wikipedia are facing might be beneficial then?
[23:12] <Erik_Zachte> yannf: ?
[23:12] <Jamesday> jwales, the WikiMedia Foundation might once a month for a day or two do that to help a WikiMedia Publishing Foundation.. and let people turn their ads off:)
[23:12] <yannf> Erik_Zachte: but people who have internet access in india usually speak english
[23:12] <jwales> Well, it's a topic for another day... didn't mean to start a discussoin about it.
[23:12] <jwales> O.k., so...
[23:12] <Erik_Zachte> true as well, but hindi is also not easy to type is it ?
[23:12] <dannyisback> i just discovered that a semester in makerere university is $810
[23:13] <jwales> Other than that, we probably want to be on the lookout well in advance for really major grant opportunities.
[23:13] <yannf> Erik_Zachte: most people who have the means go to english medium classes in india
[23:13] <dannyisback> i think that once we have these grant projects in place, it will be easier to get other grants moving
[23:13] <jwales> Our push earlier this year didn't quite make it due to time constraints, so we want to maybe make a calendar, similar to the new meta calendar, to keep up with deadlines?
[23:13] <Anthere> certainly danny
[23:13] <Angela> jwales: yes, that would be helpful
[23:13] <yannf> so the yare educated in english, and they don't write in their local languages
[23:14] <Anthere> if only because we have the material ready
[23:14] <mav> very good idea ; calendar
[23:14] <jwales> So we are 15 minutes over time, but we should call this an end for today.
[23:14] <jwales> Maybe we should have a regular monthly or bi-weekly grant brainstorming session?
[23:14] <Erik_Zachte> yannf: i know (been there for some time) still hindi is well behind compared to number of speakers
[23:14] <mav> another thing a wiki database function could do
[23:14] <Erik_Zachte> but Russian is also catching up only recently so we'll see
[23:14] <jwales> And try to get more of a full-sized committee going.
[23:14] <mav> and an official position for a grant admin
[23:15] <mav> I nominate Danny :)
[23:15] <dannyisback> i will start working on the lounsbery letter
[23:15] <yannf> Erik_Zachte: yes, there is also problems of localization in india
[23:15] <dannyisback> thanks mav
[23:15] <Anthere> I guess he already is Mav
[23:15] <dannyisback> speak to my buddy there, maximilian angerholzer III
[23:15] <yannf> Erik_Zachte: most computers are used to write english only
[23:15] <jwales> I thought Danny already was it. That's what I've been saying anyway. ;-)
[23:15] <mav> not technically offical yet
[23:15] <Anthere> so does the newsletter say
[23:15] <mav> we have all board members herew
[23:16] <Anthere> well, the only point is that we adverstised it nowhere
[23:16] <mav> so let's make it official
[23:16] <jwales> O.k., I vote yes.
[23:16] <MDavis> I vote yes also
[23:16] <Ryo_> nite
[23:16] <mav> one more will do it
[23:17] <Anthere> I have a question
[23:17] <FoeNyx> I vote yes ! (can I ? and yes to what ?)
[23:17] <mav> sorry, only board members
[23:17] <Anthere> are grant asking restricted to professionals ?
[23:17] <FoeNyx> ok nevermind so
[23:17] <mav> no ant
[23:18] <Anthere> and will the grant commitee be limited to profesionnals who already did that in real life ?
[23:18] <Anthere> which is what you supported first
[23:18] <dannyisback> no, but they should be coordinated so that we dont have six people asking the same foundation
[23:18] <Anthere> and how are we supposed to know ?
[23:18] <jwales> Right. I think the grant committee can be anyone who wants to help Danny, but Danny is the contact point, the public face, the professional.
[23:19] <Anthere> anyone who want to help Danny
[23:19] <dannyisback> yes, of course, anthere
[23:19] <Anthere> or Danny there to help the one asking the grant ?
[23:19] <dannyisback> both
[23:19] <Anthere> according to Jimbo, you will be the one asking the grant
[23:20] <jwales> But Danny to basically co-ordinate, make sure all is on the same page.
[23:20] <_sj_> It would be nice to allow for multiple contact points for different grants, depending on how many are being applied for, and in which languages
[23:20] <Anthere> will you also ask the grants in other languages ?
[23:20] <Angela> since I don't have a strong opinion either way, I'm not going to vote. I'll go with whatever Anthere votes, but I'm not sure making this decision in public right this minute is necessarily the best idea
[23:20] <jwales> O.k.
[23:20] <dannyisback> ok
[23:20] <mav> it can wait
[23:20] <jwales> We can work out the exact job specifications later and then decide about it.
[23:20] <Jamesday> Perhaps vote to propose it to the community for feedback?
[23:21] <elian> it's a volunteer job
[23:21] <mav> the job, yes
[23:22] <mav> isn't it so late that it is early for you ant?
[23:22] <mav> :)
[23:22] <mav> sun up yet?
[23:22] <Anthere> not yet
[23:22] <Angela> good point. Anthere should be asleep, so shall we officially close the meeting at this point?
[23:22] <Anthere> I went to bet 5 hours later yesterday :-)
[23:23] <Anthere> but I am really tired yes
[23:23] <mav> I agree
[23:23] <jwales> O.k., meeting closed.
[23:23] * jwales taps gavel on desk.