Grants talk:WM VE/Start-Up

I have a bit mixed feelings about the budget proportions. I mean - more than 50% of the amount is for your administrative and travel cost, and only roughly 1/3 for projects... My another concern is - that there is no point for rental of office - does it mean you want to keep computers, printer and establish a phone line at someone's home? For what purpose you need a camera and what kind of are you about to buy? Polimerek (talk) 22:28, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

1. Travelling costs: On one side, the transportation costs in Venezuela are very high, despite having very cheap fuel prices, plus travelling by bus has become too unsafe and most of the wayúu speakers are in the state of Zulia, which is 1 hour away by plane from Caracas. On another side, we have used money from our own pockets to pay for trips to cities other than Caracas to promote and give presentations about the movement and how to get involved, and so far the response has been very good. We consider it is crucial to make the community aware of the existence of the movement and that people can contribute, but Venezuela is quite a large and sparsely populated country, which complicates travelling.
2. Office: We had originally planned to rent an office, a small one -but it is not worth having an office whose rental would cost (the lowest for a 6 sqm office in a not-very-safe area) US$ 6,500 for a year, when one of our members is willing to let us use one unused room of her apartment. Taking into account that almost all of us work full-time, it makes no sense renting a place that won't be occupied on a daily basis.
3. As for the digital camera, we are using my own camera, and for simultaneous events we might need more cameras. We have considered models similar to this one. We have been discussing about the possibility of organizing an event like Wikimedia Venezuela takes your city, in which we would go out and take photos of places without any image in Commons. And we also want to participate in WLM next year as well.--Jewbask (talk) 17:58, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I think it's important to point out that our main goal is to give free access to free knowledge to ALL people in ALL Venezuela. If you take into account that the Internet penetration in Venezuela is less than 40% [1] as to 2011 then you can figure out that we cannot accomplish our mission just sitting in front of our computers.

Most of our people are in the margin of the Wikimedia Projects. If you really want the people (that 60% and a lot of that 40%) to get access to all the knowledge then you have to go where they are. If you want to free that knowledge, the one you don't have because it is not in Internet and it is just in old books in an hidden library hundred of kilometers away or not published, you cannot keep seated. And that is what we are doing little by little, and that is what we have to keep doing as far we can ensure people really can have that access. We have to empower and encourage people around Venezuela to collect and develop neutral educational content under a free content license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally. It sounds familiar, right? Just add low Internet access, several miles and security issues.

We can make a difference. We can call the attention of those who can help us in granting that access, but first we have to be with the people. If you want to get where the people are then you have to take your suitcase and take a trip. We have been paying for those trips from our pockets and a grant to effort then is really a support we need. We are not talking about starting to edit, we are talking about going to east and west north and south to the communities of local users groups, native communities, from the top of the Andes to the Highlands of Guayana, to the southern plains to the north coast. Travelling is not a project (right!). Travelling is a task for several projects.

And at first we don't see ourselves as the office guys for the free knowledge movement. The rude work is out there for now. The money we can use in hiring an office, we prefer to use it to get where the people are. That thanks to the opportunity we have of taking a place at one of our board members'. We cannot denay that Wikimedia Venezuela needs a representation. We need "the office". We need the phone number where the people and stakeholders can call and have an answers in the name of WMVE. We need office stuff. Yes, we need all of that. But we discussed it very well and for a good while. We can have "an office" without paying a rent. We can use the money for our mission. Later, with the years we'll have a rented office, for sure. Meanwhile we just need basic office stuff, such us the computers and so on because yes, we have a lot of burocracy locally. The kind of burocracy you better don't want to image for your own health (it isn't Poland). ;) Nicely. --Fhaidel (talk) 19:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

P.S.: Well, but if we can get the support for the travels (priority) and the help for renting the office, it's sounds good for me :) --Fhaidel (talk) 19:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

We have a lot bureaucracy in Poland as well :-) Anyway - you sound very persuasive. I just asked questions to clarify your grant application :-) For me it is absolutely OK. Polimerek (talk) 23:47, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Some thoughts

Thanks for the submission. My main concern is also related to some of the items mentioned in the budget. You have 4,800 $ for post office box per year that seems to be a little bit expensive. I don't know what are the prices of the postal services in Venezuela, but is it possible to cut off this sum? This one along with the costs for telephone service and travel are recurrent, and will normally occur next year. How do you plan to cover them in the future? My opinion regarding the administrative costs, including the costs for founding the NGO is definitely supportive, as it is something that is usually done with the newly approved chapters. So far we've used not to approve the purchase of equipment, mostly because of its use for the project requested and the property rights for it, as it was likely to be lent from elsewhere (e.g. Wikimedia Foundation, a Wikimedia chapter, other organization). But this looks like to be something that you will use for a longer period, and it might be possible to support the purchase of such equipment. Best regards.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 00:09, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

1. That amount of 4,800 is not US$ but Bolívares Fuertes (VEB); for the amount in US$, look at the last column :-) Still, it is the cost of a private POB -the local post service is very unreliable, but we could switch to an Ipostel POB for 1/4 the cost, no worries :-)
2. During the Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, we consulted if the WMF could make an exception and allow us to fundraise (in local currency) since many people (and some companies and organizations) have let us know that they'd like to donate money in local currency, since donating to NGOs abroad is very complicated: individuals have a maximum yearly allowance of US$ 400 to spend in electronic transactions and companies simply cannot donate foreign currency abroad. So, we consulted with some people at the WMF and we were told that our case could be studied because our situation is "special". By having a look at the increase in donations received from Venezuela from 2010 to 2011 and taking into account that we only have these US$ 400 per year, you could understand why we think we can raise a lot of money locally, which anyway would never reach the WMF since it cannot be transfered abroad. If we were approved to do so, we would organize the logistics for organizing it in Venezuela. --Jewbask (talk) 03:06, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
   1. To sum up, Venezuela has a foreign exchange control system; so individuals can't use more than 400$USD for "internet" transactions (which people really use on Amazon first). However they can donate in local currency. DamianFinol (talk) 17:22, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

GAC members who have read this request but had no comments

• --3BRBS (talk) 23:08, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

More questions

• I think it's very commendable that you don't need to pay for the office and found some place to use. Hovewer, I have some questions.
• How many active members, e.g. willing and able to commit more than a couple of hours per week, WM VE has at the moment? During the next year you plan to register and organize two conferences for 50 people each in different cities and travel and promote WM movement, while having full time jobs? For comparison, a relatively well-established WM Russia is able to organize only one conference per year, so they vary the city. I think that organizing two conferences is a bit too ambitious.

As of today, we have one active member in Punto Fijo, one in Cumaná, two active members in Barquisimeto, two in Maracaibo, 5 in Valencia and 13 in the Greater Caracas Area. The conferences are not as big as a Wikimania, and a little of a Meetup too. Regarding travelling, some can be done during weekends/long weekend; in some cases we will switch depending on who can get a permission from work or take advantage of a city holiday to travel to another one :-) --Jewbask (talk) 23:10, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

• The price of PO Box is exorbitant, there must be some cheaper options. --Victoria (talk) 10:14, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

We're trying to find a cheaper one, but this is pretty much the average for a private POB. We can still take a public post POB, but it is very unrealiable. Or not to pay a POB at all! --Jewbask (talk) 23:10, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Would it be possible to use the postal address of your meetings place? Are you planning to recompence the person, who is lending you a room, at least for electricity, so he/she won't get tired of hosting very soon?--Victoria (talk) 10:06, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

We proposed to help paying either the electricity or the internet service (both are more or less the same) but she hasn't accepted so far :-/ --Jewbask (talk) 15:07, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi Victoria, the idea behind the 'two conferences' (I'd call just two meetups) is to approach to a wider audience. We are thinking in something small, between 50-150 expected attendees, we are at least 5 people in Caracas and Valencia, more than enough to set an event of these characteristics. Regards --Oscar_. ^(talk) _w:spanish 00:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the prompt replies. I am glad to hear that you have enough people to support the proposed program, but I think that we need to clarify the terminology:

• In my experience a "Meetup" is an informal meeting of n wikimedians, where 2 < n < 20. Usulally no more, than 20 people, because a larger group fracture into smaller groups, which talk about computers, music etc. and rarely about wikimedia. At least in Europe, the meeups often take place in cafes, but everyone pays for his/her refreshment. There are usually some lay people present, but mainly relatives and friends of wikipedians.
• Wikiconference, on the other hand, is something much more organised and requires a committee, a venue, a program, posters etc. I know that sessions for newbies are rarely successful during the conferences, because it's difficult to join somebody, who is very advanced in the subject.
• There can be special meetings for people, who are interested in editing Wikimedia projects, but don't know how, but this require preparation as well, at least somebody, who knows what to talk about (a presentation).
  

The meetup doesn't usually require an expenditure, certainly not $1.5K. A conference or outreach project does, but at this level of funding I suggest you apply for an additional funding, when you have a more structured proposal.

That's why I wouldn't call them exactly "meetups" because the audience is way larger than 20 people and we organize presentations during the event. Probably is a question of finding a more appropriate word in English that corresponds to the characteristics of such an event, as we have one in Spanish: Encuentro, an event where people gather, meet, talk and discuss about the Wikimedia Movement and its projects :-) Our first Wikiencuentro had 30 attendees, we rented a hall at Universidad Central de Venezuela and after the presentations we went to have a late lunch together (everybody pays their food) --Jewbask (talk) 15:07, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

If you already had an Encruento, this makes the other ones are more feasible. Hovewer, sorry, but I don’t understand your calculations. For “outreach and projects” you plan to spend $5, 209, while T-shirts will already cost 4,186 and each of the three projects 1,627 each. Do you count the cost of promotional material twice?--Victoria (talk) 10:50, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Oops, my mistake! Sorry. --Jewbask (talk) 23:05, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

• It would have been helpful, if you'd included some indication of what "ForoTIC 2012", as I understand it, this is a forum for communication and technology.Victoria (talk) 10:06, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Sure! ForoTIC 2012 is a biannual forum for communication and technology, organized in the city of Valencia by a consulting company named Lourtec. During the event, six debates in three different tracks (IT Culture and e-government, Mobility and Internet, IT Infrastructure and Software solutions) are scheduled, with a panel of 4-5 IT experts plus a moderator. After the presentation and the debate, the audience also makes questions to the presenter. We'll also have a booth/stand outside of the main hall, so attendees (and the media) can ask for more information about the movement and our projects. It is a one-day event. --Jewbask (talk) 15:07, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. How many people in total will take part in ForoTIC 2012? I am sure that everybody there will be happy to get a free T-thirt and buttons, but would it be cost effective and fit to goals to spend more than a thousand dollars in one day? From my experience of biotech companies’ promotional material , it doesn’t change anything - I buy the products, which are the best for the lowest price, not from the company, that gave me a free pen. I doubt that people will start participating in WM projects just because they’ve got our promotional material - and we don't need ads on people's backs, this crowd will definitely know what is Wikipedia.--Victoria (talk) 10:50, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

The organizers request enough material for 400 attendees. And no, we don't think of distributing t-shirts, freesbies or baseball caps! Just buttons and stickers -probably a button with the Wikipedia logo and a sticker (with WM-VE logo and/or the Wikipedia globe puzzle) plus a triptych with more info about the Wikimedia movement, WM-VE and our projects. That's what we have distributed (from our own pockets) in other events previously and people loved that. --Jewbask (talk) 23:05, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

(The rest of) opinion

• I think, that admin stuff (legal, supplies, etc.) can be fully funded, except for the P/O box. Not sure about the camera, but it's relatively inexpensive.
• Travel costs are probably too much and can be halved - at least, that's what British Research Concils usually do, while giving grants.--Victoria (talk) 10:50, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I'll talk to the other guys and girls about it. No problem about taking the POB off the list. --Jewbask (talk) 23:05, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Wait! We need that POB. :| We're going to be at Laura's home but that will be just for one year or maybe two. We cannot print papers and send communications, letters, cards with a so volatile address. Neither we can expect receiving post at Laura's studio all the time, in working hours i.e. We are starting and we are not going to be all day at her home and the mail system here is not that kind of leave the package in the mail box. That doesn't work so here. Or you're there to receive or you loose and go around the city to rescue your mail. A POB is a fixed and functional address we need. We really need some help with that. --Fhaidel (talk) 13:14, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I am generally already in support of the grant, I just have a question on this item and the amount allocated for it. For USD 1,116.27, I know it could really be that expensive to rent a PO Box. But does WMVE expect to receive a lot of correspondence? Are there any virtual offices/business center/co-working spaces in Venezuela where you can receive your correspondence or which may offer receiving your correspondence on a much cheaper rate or perhaps use their business address as your own? Because we are using the same for the Philippines, I don't know if that could work for you.-- Namayan (talk) 10:10, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

There are some sort of virtual offices but they do not receive correspondence; sadly, they only work for printing, sending faxes and providing a space for meetings. And the few that I know of have been transformed into cyber-cafés :-/ --Jewbask (talk) 14:47, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

That explains it. -- Namayan (talk) 17:37, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Scale-down needed

WMVE is a very young chapter, and is asking for a lot of money for a start-up grant. Before going into any of the details, I will say $25K is much too much for a start-up grant, and we should look into prioritization of the components of this proposal to find a subset that would get WMVE going and support its first project(s), but cost no more than, say, $10K. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 21:33, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

A lot of money is a relative term. As Fhaidel explained below and because of the currency control system, our real market rate is around 10-11 BsF per US$ and the official rate (at the one we will receive the money from the WMF, if we receive any) is BsF 4.3 per US$, so those US$10,000 will allow us to do way less than what you could in the US with the same amount of money. And BTW that currency control system has been around since 2003. --Jewbask (talk) 01:41, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Even if $25K in Venezuela is equivalent to $10K in the US (and I understand everything you said about the currency problem), it is still too much money to commit at this point in WMVE's existence. As I said above, you will need to prioritize WMVE's needs and plans, and pick the most important ones to do first. After WMVE has used those funds for those first priorities, both sides will be better positioned to evaluate further spending. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 15:13, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

+1 to what Asaf said. Abbasjnr (talk) 20:44, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

+1 to above. I see a lot of revision has been done. Can someone update the totals to omitt what has and revise what has been reduced. Caution is usually taken for the first or start-up grant. I advice that all the items that you have ommited, be collected together for your next grant request (which you can do after submitting report of this one). You will have to be patient in building your chapter, and we are all here to assit you do just that.--Thuvack (talk) 07:20, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

+1 to the comments of Asaf. It's relatively young. I am for providing WMVE the administrative resources it needs to operate as an organization. As a volunteer chapter it must focus on capacity building, as it is easy to provide plans, but there has to be programs and the needed manpower to see to it that it will be executed. If I may just suggest to begin with small projects, maybe regular meet-ups in the said cities or perhaps divert the said amounts to program specific projects. I have no doubt WMVE would be able to deliver and execute this efficiently. -- Namayan (talk) 12:54, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Budget Items

• $1100 for "office supplies", beyond the hardware? That's a lot of money for office supplies, and remember there is not going to be a physical office at this point. Please break this down and explain why so much needs to be spent, or reduce this considerably. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:21, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I see you all saying something like "oh, that's so high... so expensive..." Believe me: I understand you. I wish we have a not so expensive economy. You're right. Things here can look (and be) quite expensive. Not in vain people who can get access to the controlled dollars go to e-bay instead of to the local shop. Just an exercise: One laptop in USA = US$ 420 [2]. The controlled exchange is Bs.4,3/USD. You can image the same laptop for Bs. 1.806 more or less. But when you come down here to buy that computer in the local market, you'll find that it costs Bs. 5.950 [3] equivalent to US$ 1.383,72. :/ That's when you say: that's too much for that computer. It's just a simple example of the economy in this "global south" country. Anyway, we might adjust something. I think! ;) I say: You're right but I beg you not to loss the local country economy context. Most of the stuff we can present can seem really expensive and we're concious of that but there isn't much we can do with prices. --Fhaidel (talk) 02:52, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Are you, in fact, going to "adjust something" in your budget? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 15:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

That's what we are doing. We'll figure out how to get more office supplies, probably through donations -you know, some bookstore can give us ink cartrigdes, another retailer might give us paper... --Jewbask (talk) 19:02, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Asaf... the office is real. Not in a corporate building but office anyway. When you say that it isn't physical, I read "it's virtual" --Fhaidel (talk) 02:52, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 15:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

• WMVE does not need a fixed telephone line, as it's not going to have an office. Why can't a board member's personal cell phone be used for now? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:21, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

In my case (and I think other board members as well) my cell phone plan (and the phone itself) is paid by the company I work for. Would using that phone line ethical? And again, the office is real; it might not be in a fancy building in the business district of Caracas, but the fact that a board member is willing to cede a room in her apartment to use as an office does not mean it is not an office. --Jewbask (talk) 01:44, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for this clarification. I withdraw the reservation about the phone line. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 15:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

• $140 to send a couple of pages of paper to San Francisco is exorbitant. Please support this with a price quote. Note that we only need the chapter agreement in hard copy; you do not need to send us the bylaws in hard copy, nor is there need for express shipping. We expect one mailing of a few pieces of paper to cost significantly less, but would like you to find out what exactly it might cost. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:21, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I'll provide the price quotes. --Jewbask (talk) 22:21, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, please do. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 15:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

• $1100 for a PO Box is exorbitant, and of questionable value. What does WMVE need a physical mailbox for? Can't your letterheads etc. only mention a Web site and an e-mail address? And if you absolutely need a physical mailbox for legal reasons, can you perhaps find a friendly organization (e.g. Fundación Centro Nacional de Desarrollo e Investigación en Tecnologías Libres, or perhaps a university?) that would agree to receive WMVE's mail for now? Spending so much money for a PO Box is hard to justify at this stage. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:21, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

We have contacted other NGOs and Universities, and none is willing to do it for free. --Jewbask (talk) 22:21, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I see. Thanks for this additional context. In this case, could you clarify a little what the implication would be of choosing the standard/public PO Box over this premium service? Would WMVE's ability to achieve movement goals be significantly impaired if we choose the cheaper option? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 15:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

The impact? most of the communication with state entities and organizations in Venezuela are done in paper and not electronically, and having a public POB would cause problems since, personally, I had once one of those and I'm still waiting for lost letters and packages that should have arrived in 2008. There is one company that offers this service and the sender pays nothing, as in, for instance: You leave me an envelope/parcel in one of their offices in Maracaibo and address it to my mailbox in Caracas. You pay nothing. I pay a yearly fee for receiving it in my mailbox in Caracas. And it comes with insurance. --Jewbask (talk) 18:46, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Now it is much clearer, and I understand the need. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

• Is 180 VEF per T-shirt the best quote available in Venezuela? ~$40 per T-shirt wholesale is quite expensive, in US standards. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:21, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry to shock you with the costs of t-shirts in Venezuela but yes, it is. If you want a few price quotes, we can provide them --Jewbask (talk) 22:21, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

And that's quite cheap in fact!! You can find them by the double. --Fhaidel (talk) 02:52, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I see. Do you know if there are restrictions on producing the T-shirts elsewhere and shipping a large quantity to Venezuela? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 15:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

No, there are no restrictions. We would just have to pay for the nationalization taxes and that kind of stuff (some couriers already include these taxes in their rates). --Jewbask (talk) 18:49, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Very well. So let's assume we will be shipping merchandise to you rather than you producing it locally, so it can be taken out of this request. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Done. I also took off the buttons since it will be definitely cheaper to get them from the WMF rather than having them made here, so I'm assuming the same case as the t-shirts. Damian got us a bunch of buttons once and we managed to give them away in quite a few events. --Jewbask (talk) 03:27, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

• You do not make clear what the expect impact of ~6.8K's worth of travel would be. Please clarify what the travel is for (the fact you have members in each of those cities is not, in itself, a value proposition), and reduce it significantly for this start-up grant. I'd recommend focusing on Caracas and Valencia, where the bulk of the members are at the moment, until WMVE has gotten off the ground and gained some experience, at which point it would be in a better position to plan (and get more funding for) its expansion across the country. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:21, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Until now, we have attended conferences and gave speeches about the Wikimedia movement in cities in Venezuela other than Caracas (i.e., Valencia, Maracay, San Felipe, Barquisimeto, Maracaibo, Coro) with money from our own pockets. The number of events we could have attended could have been a lot bigger had we had money to fund these trips. The money requested in this case would be used for attending events related to Free Knowledge where we are expected to participate as speakers. Still, we have proceeded as per your request and cut the numbers of trips planned in half. --Jewbask (talk) 17:27, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 15:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Wayuunaiki

There are only about 3000 literate native speakers of Wayuu in the world, of which only about half live in Venezuela. This number is far too small to ever support a viable Wikipedia community (Wikisource and Wiktionary are much more viable, and valuable). The stats about the Wayuu Incubator support my statement -- only four human users have made more than a handful of edits to the wiki in as many years (and User:Jewbask, the principal applicant, is one of them).

If the article is correct, then I must know a quarter of the literate native speakers of wayuunnaiki! :-) Regarding the number of users in the Wayuunaiki Wikipedia, haven't you realised how complex is editing in the Incubator for someone with no wiki background? or do you think they will just see the interface and figure out how to start editing? In case you didn't know, there has been state-sponsored and private (Catholic Church-run schools) bilingual wayuunaiki/spanish education in the State of Zulia since the early 80s where Wayuunaiki is the core language used while Spanish is used for science (math, physics, chemistry) subjects, so that number of 3,000 literate speakers is wrong. To give you one example I have at hand, the Venezuelan Ministry of Education has been publishing since 2005 more than 10,000 copies of the teaching book Apünajaa (ISBN 980-6468-46-5) yearly. --Jewbask (talk) 22:08, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Given all that, and this is not new to most of you reading this, I content we should not devote a single dollar of our donor funds toward attempts to create a Wikipedia in Wayuu. People are of course welcome to donate their time and skills however they see fit, but I think it would be irresponsible to spend any of our financial resources on this doomed effort that is not serving our mission, i.e. not actually delivering free knowledge to people.

I find the phrase "this doomed effort" pretty offensive to a community of 600,000 people that is interested in preserving their culture, traditions and language but has not received the opportunity (yet) to do so. I still don't understand what happened to WMF's motto "Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge". How can the wayuu people share their knowledge with the rest of the world in their own language if there is no platform to do so/nobody teaches them how to do so? --Jewbask (talk) 22:08, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I therefore ask that WMVE make it very clear that none of the money being asked for is to be used to promote a Wayuu Wikipedia, nor to travel to Guajira for no purpose other than this. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:21, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

My personal position (not WMVE's): don't worry, Asaf. If I am offering a workshop to literate wayuu speakers on how to edit in Wikipedia, Wiktionary or Wikisource, I will do it from my own pocket. --Jewbask (talk) 22:08, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for this personal opinion. And what should I take as WMVE's position? That's what I was asking for, above. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 15:08, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Postura Oficial de Wikimedia Venezuela: Si la Fundación considera que la Wikipedia en Wayuunaiki no es importante, nosotros WM-VE buscaremos realizar este objetivo con dinero propio. No es la primera vez que nosotros pagamos por alquiler de espacio para reunir a wikimedistas o por material POP (libretas, marcapáginas) o por refrigerios o por traslados. Somos un grupo comprometido con el proyecto y, aunque no nos sobra el dinero, siempre buscamos apoyarnos unos a otros. Si la Fundación considera que NO apoyará la creación de una Wikipedia en una de las lenguas originarias hablada en Colombia y Venezuela, por supuesto NO usaremos dinero de la Fundación para hacer la Wiki en Wayuunaiki. Usaremos el dinero que la Fundación nos apruebe para los items que están en el presupuesto. Saludos, Laura Fiorucci (talk) 02:16, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

You misunderstand. We do not consider the Wayuunaiki Wikipedia "not important", as you say; we consider it "not viable", i.e. it is extremely unlikely ever to be a significant source of free knowledge for people (though it could achieve other purposes, such as language practice and language preservation. Those purposes, however, are outside our mission).

Anyhow, it is fine to disagree on this point. This statement above, about not using WMF funds for purposes not approved in this grant proposal (once approved) is enough. Please strike out(like this) the Wayuunaiki Wikipedia (Wikisource and Wiktionary are good projects to develop in any language) from the grant proposal. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:05, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Done, striked out from the grant proposal as requested. --Jewbask (talk) 03:31, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

WMVE cannot understand what you call "our mission", i.e. "our mission" is "to empower and engage people around Venezuela (part of the world, including the Guajira and other places) to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally". We understand that "in collaboration with a network of chapters (like WMVE), the Foundation provides the essential infrastructure and an organizational framework for the support and development of multilingual wiki projects and other endeavors which serve this mission." And in your own words, WMVE consider it is irresponsible to treat this effort as a previously doomed one. In fact, we feel quite offended with such speech. Because of that we must be very clear in disagree with you in this matter.--Fhaidel (talk) 02:51, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry you take offense; certainly no offense was meant. I have been citing facts in support of my assessment of a Wayuunaiki Wikipedia's viability. You don't need anyone's permission to work on a Wayuunaiki Wikipedia, or to encourage others to work on it. You do need permission to spend WMF-provided funds on doing that.

If new facts come to light, suggesting the Wayuunaiki Wikipedia is viable, we can revisit this in the future, and consider allocating funds to support it. For now, this does seem a doomed effort, and we are committed to make effective use of our donor funds, and so should not fund this. The statement above suggests WMVE accepts this, so we can move on. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:05, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that the project to support this endangered language is really important but it should be a different project and a different grant. The problem is that the measure of the success should be addressed to have few and really reachable objectives. So, it would be better to close this grant looking in the costs of the startup and after submit a grant for the specific support of Wayuunaiki. This is the some comments I had with Wikimedia Chile (if I remember well) when they asked they startup. So, may we agree? I think that this suggestion to split the two projects is more an advantage for WM VE than an opposition. --Ilario (talk) 10:10, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

We already took any reference to support of the development of a Wayuunaiki Wikipedia, Wiktionary and/or Wikisource; we are doing it with our own personal resources and so far we have progressed. It will take longer, but we'll be fine. --Jewbask (talk) 19:40, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Another opinion

I have read all previous comments, and, dare I suggest the following:

- I understand that it has launched WMVE insurmountable requirements, type of legal expenses, fees, etc.

- Do not believe everything that is most important has to do with costs to explain what is and what does the WP? Travel, conferences, workshops?

- I am convinced that we must begin with what is basic, and, later, progress in materials and infrastructure. If not available locally hired WMVE headquarters, makes a bad handling equipment: printers, cameras, etc..

- You could adjust the budget in this line?

Do not think I know the importance of having local facilities, but must set priorities, because we could find some means having inadequate at this time.

Regarding the issue of promoting the use of indigenous languages ​​as Wayuunaiki in your application you refer to only support, but not specify which resources are spent planning. I am in favor of promoting the use of minority languages​​, but it is calibrated as well, especially if we consider the small number of users of the same, and therefore of potential Wikipedians collaborating on the project . Could you explain how you plan to do this line of work, objectives and resources are allocated. --Josepnogue (talk) 19:45, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I didn't understand the first part quite well. Could you please be more specific? Thanks! --Jewbask (talk) 01:28, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I, too, could not quite understand Josep's comments. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 15:21, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Exchange

I know most things here are "expensive" for you. I just want to give an idea as it works here.

You surely know that we have exchange control since many years ago in Venezuela. We have a legal controlled exchange and naturrally a gray market. The legal exchange is VEF 4,3/USD. The gray market exchange is about VEF 10/USD fluctuating. The local economy is calculated for most things taking the USD price as reference and then you multiply for the gray value of the USD. When you convert Dollars into Bolivars you have to do it taking the legal exchange.

• Example:
  • 1 t-shirt: USD 19
  • 1 t-shirt in the venezuelan local market = 19 * 10 = Bs. 190
  • 1 t-shirt in legal USD exchange = Bs. 190 / 4,30 = US$ 44,19

So:

• If you have US$ 19 and change them legally, you have: US$ 19 * 4,3 = Bs. 81,70. You cannot buy the t-shirt.
• If you have US$ 44,19 and change them legally, you have: US$ 44,19 * 4,30 = Bs. 190. You can go and buy the t-shirt.

So, with US$ 25.161,41 we can effort the same you might effort with US$ 10.819,40:

25.161,41 / 10 = 2.516,14

2.516,14 * 4,3 = 10.819,40

If we receive US$ 10.000,00 we can effort as much as you can effort with US$ 4.300,00

This exercice is if you are trying to compare the exchange capability between yours economies and ours.

I hope it can be an easy reference.

Regards,

--Fhaidel (talk) 03:34, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I know this official and real exchange rates issue from communist era in Poland and it is really painfull. However, in that case maybe it would be more clever to produce your T-shirts and other stuff abroad by other local chapter or WMF office in Brasil, and then send it to you instead of sending money? The same apply to office equipment. Polimerek (talk) 09:54, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

If it is cheaper, of course! --Jewbask (talk) 01:25, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Uh... that would be nice (surely cheaper) to get all that stuff from abroad but I'm not sure how viable it would be. Maybe for "Equipment and spendables" (except "Other office supplies" and phone service) and the T-Shirts. But... how viable and accountable could it be? I'm not sure. :/ --Fhaidel (talk) 02:21, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for this explanation. It certainly helped. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 15:22, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

This kick-up of two and half times for the currency is a real problem. It effectively means that prices are artificially inflated by ... not 10 or 20%, but almost two and a half times. The t-shirt example is just one. Perhaps this application needs to wait until this punitive exchange rate system ends (it will take many years, I suspect). What do other international non-profits do? Tony (talk) 23:53, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The currency exchange system has been up for the last 9 years, if I remember well, and I don't think it will change while Chávez is still in power. The problem is that if our application has to wait, there's almost nothing we will be able to do but languish until none of us can pay the expenses from our own pockets -which is not a lot of money though. There are not many international non-profits here but they all see their budget in foreign currency minimized; some others fundraise locally to help collect some money too. --Jewbask (talk) 19:52, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we are doing some research on whether and how this can be overcome, and we are reaching out to other NGOs to find out what their practice is. Please stay tuned.

Relatedly, this suggests it may be illegal for us to support WMVE once incorporated, which puts into serious question whether incorporation even makes sense for WMVE. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 00:16, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Not really. the law is very specific and applies only to political and human rights organizations. --Jewbask (talk) 19:57, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what could be the position of WMF in this situation, on one hand we have a community where there is a momentum to get started, but WMVE has no choice but comply with domestic laws. Venezuela isn't even an embargoed OFAC country, I would understand if it is. I feel WMVE's desire to be incorporated as it gives them more leverage to pursue their objectives, suggesting that they fund raise would be difficult too at this point. -- Namayan (talk) 04:34, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Responding in a timely manner

I don't find particularly constructive the fact that it's been over a month since we last replied to the questions posted here and the people responsible for following up with our request doesn't reply, when other grant requests are being attended in an expedite manner. I'd like to know why is that. Is there a priority list for Grant Requests? --Jewbask (talk) 13:15, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Carlos. There seems to be a misunderstanding. I was under the impression we are waiting for the price quotes you said you would provide. Is this not the case? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 15:06, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

If you check the history of the Grant Request, you can see I updated it with the cheapest price quote I could find for the cost of sending the documents to San Francisco -DHL seemed to have adjusted its prices. On the quote for the mailbox, the national post service doesn't provide price quotes over the phone, and they only work in office hours -I haven't been able to leave the office for the nearest post office available. --Jewbask (talk) 18:36, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, this is reasonable now. To proceed, please address the remaining issues above, including a general scaling down and prioritization, as the proposal as it stands is still more than double the amount we consider reasonable for a first grant. Remember you can always ask for an additional grant, after making some progress on this first one (even before it is over). Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:08, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Done. We'll take that into account, definitely. I fully trust my team, I'm pretty sure we'll achieve all our goals before expected. --Jewbask (talk) 03:23, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Some research

Please note I am doing some research on how to best support WMVE financially, and this may take a little more time. Please bear with us as we try to find the best solution. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 16:49, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

+1 --Fhaidel (talk) 01:25, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Just a quick note to confirm we are still looking into options. It's complicated. :) Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 19:44, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I know it is not easy, Asaf. Thanks. --Jewbask (talk) 19:42, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

What about a gift? Is there any barriers to donate equipment? If you are buying abroad, how much is the tax? --MikyM (talk) 16:02, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

In general, there are not barriers to receive equipment donated from abroad other than some kind of "import" tax, whicha re lower than regular improt taxes since we are an NGO. --Jewbask (talk) 19:42, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, if we are looking to use more than forty cents out of every dollar, buying abroad can help. I mean, some chapters or the WMF can bought and send (donate) to you. I'm sorry to see you are waiting so long time.--MikyM (talk) 22:25, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

That could help too! We'd have to see what the WMF says about it! Thanks, it's pretty frustrating because we keep postponing and rescheduling all the major events we had been planning due to lack of resources :-/ --Jewbask (talk) 00:30, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I suppose we're looking into involving other chapters in the area with helping you? Or is moving money to Venezuela from whereever a problem? (sorry for being new and stoopid on this :D notafish }<';> 08:35, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

We are trying to figure out how to deal with the dual exchange rate and avoid losing a lot of money. But it hasn't been easy :-( --Jewbask (talk) 16:51, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

My inclination is to avoid at all costs being roped into what is effectively a system of graft payments to the regime—whether by the dual exchange rate or so-called import taxes. Let's hope some way can be found. Tony (talk) 06:33, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Fixed amount for start-up

On my opinion, the fixed amount of money could be delivered for starting WM Chapters. On my opinion in any country, USD 5000 is quite enough amount for the necessary spending:

• Legal registration
• First year of operation
• First Annual General Meeting (travel, meal)
• Design and publishing some promotional materials, business cards
• One press-conference

Of course, this does not include the equipment and the outreach activities.

So the whole grant is quite reasonable for me. --Perohanych (talk) 15:26, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Support for the grant

1. -- Namayan (talk) 17:38, 7 September 2012 (UTC)