IRC office hours/Office hours 2011-12-04

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[1:58pm] Maryana: stevenw is spamming all the other channels, and once he's done, he'll probably set an actual agenda here
[1:59pm] Maryana: i just wanted to get a feel for how many of y'all have done any FD work :)
[2:00pm] Hubertl: raise my hand, too!
[2:00pm] tommorris: I gave someone a nice WikiLove from it earlier, and have had a message on my talk page back from them saying they've got addicted to Wikipedia
[2:00pm] Gnumarcoo joined the chat room.
[2:00pm] Gnumarcoo left the chat room.
[2:00pm] Gnumarcoo joined the chat room.
[2:00pm] Maryana: hubertl: cool! on which project? english?
[2:00pm] Maryana: it's also available on nl.wiki
[2:00pm] Hubertl: german, mary
[2:01pm] Hubertl: Maryana: german
[2:01pm] StevenW: Okay, done with the spam. ;)
[2:01pm] Maryana: really? i didn't know it was imported to german, too
[2:01pm] SPQRobin joined the chat room.
[2:01pm] Ebe123: No. #wikipedia-en-abuse
[2:01pm] Hubertl: no, it is not, but maybe it will sometimes
[2:02pm] Maryana: ah, ok. i hope so!
[2:02pm] emefwe joined the chat room.
[2:02pm] StevenW: I think you just have to request it, and make sure it can be localized.
[2:02pm] DeltaQuad joined the chat room.
[2:02pm] StevenW: Okay, I think we're about ready to get started then
[2:02pm] StevenW: ?
[2:02pm] matthewrbowker: OK,
[2:02pm] Dragonfly6-7 joined the chat room.
[2:03pm] Dragonfly6-7: by the way
[2:03pm] matthewrbowker: O.O more people!
[2:03pm] Dragonfly6-7: before office hours start
[2:03pm] Dragonfly6-7: has everyone seen http://inkdroid.org:3000/  ?
[2:03pm] Synch joined the chat room.
[2:03pm] tommorris: yeah, long time ago
[2:03pm] Dragonfly6-7: this is magnificent, it's a live feed of every edit on wikipedia
[2:03pm] matthewrbowker: Yes.
[2:03pm] StevenW: Yeah, it's pretty neat.
[2:03pm] WilliamH_UK: mamma mia
[2:04pm] matthewrbowker: It's cool :)
[2:04pm] Dragonfly6-7: WilliamH_UK - you can set it to display any given language's wikipedia, or in any namespace, or both
[2:04pm] StevenW: Alright, well I think if anyone has any specific questions then they should feel free to shout them out. But I was thinking we'd start with talking about what people think about the feature, what we want from it, etc.
[2:04pm] WilliamH_UK: Dragonfly6-7 - so I see
[2:04pm] Dragonfly6-7: StevenW - okay, I've got a serious question. Where does one find the dashboard anyway?
[2:04pm] tommorris: oh wow, it uses a recent Commons image as the background. thankfully not 'My micropenis.jpg'
[2:04pm] StevenW: Special:FeedbackDashboard
[2:05pm] Ebe123: There's a problem with Feedback Dashboard on the incubator (http://incubator.wikimedia.org/). It seems to not work with the WikimediaIncubator (http://mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikimediaIncubator) extension enabled. You may want to vote about it on the bug (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=32772).
[2:05pm] Dragonfly6-7: StevenW - no, you misunderstand.
[2:05pm] BarkingFish joined the chat room.
[2:05pm] Chzz joined the chat room.
[2:05pm] Dragonfly6-7: StevenW - let's say I'm a brand new user and I'm not on IRC. Where do I find the Dashboard?
[2:05pm] StevenW: So the Dashboard itself is not for new users.
[2:05pm] tommorris: Dragonfly6-7: it's listed on Special Pages
[2:06pm] Dragonfly6-7: hm
[2:06pm] tommorris: Special:SpecialPages
[2:06pm] tommorris: in the sidebar
[2:06pm] Dragonfly6-7: tommorris - thank you
[2:06pm] StevenW: New users give feedback through a small link that's provided to them in the skin, called the MoodBar
[2:06pm] tommorris: actually, no, wait, that's the AFT dashboard
[2:06pm] tommorris: oh yes, it's there too
[2:06pm] StevenW: Yes, AFT is different entirely
[2:06pm] tommorris: "Feedback dashboard" on Special:SpecialPages
[2:06pm] Maryana: we like to use the word feedback in all of our features, just to confuse you :)
[2:06pm] Chzz: hmph; we could probably put it between the "I like this" and the "Tweet" buttons
[2:07pm] StevenW: Anyway, new people who have clicked the edit button see an invitation "Feedback about editing"
[2:07pm] StevenW: and what they provide gets piped into the Special:FeedbackDashboard automatically
[2:07pm] DeltaQuad: so wait the Feedback Dashboard is about getting editors opinion about editing in general?
[2:07pm] StevenW: Yes, partly
[2:07pm] Maryana: deltaquad: yes, basically
[2:07pm] Chzz: Q. -can feedback be oversighted? I asked about that rather important concern via functionary-email list (per BEANS) about 3 weeks ago, but have not got an answer
[2:08pm] StevenW: But it does currently require a text comment, not just marking whether it made you Happy, Sad, or Confused.
[2:08pm] WilliamH_UK: so if I type a response within Special:FeedbackDashboard, where does my response get piped?
[2:08pm] StevenW: Chzz: no, feedback cannot be oversighted right now. It can be hidden from all but other admins by a a sysop.
[2:08pm] Dragonfly6-7: Chzz - oh yes, that's another important part. Some rather horrible statements have been gleefully splattered all over Feedback more than once.
[2:08pm] StevenW: WilliamH_UK: it goes as a section on their talk page
[2:08pm] WilliamH_UK: ah got it
[2:09pm] Chzz: StevenW if someone posts the phone number of a 12-year old, or a death-threat, or whatever - what is the plan?
[2:09pm] tommorris: it'd be useful to filter out feedback that has already been responded to
[2:09pm] matthewrbowker: Yes, oversight would help. Maybe a separate userright?
[2:09pm] YairRand_: deep in the bowels of the wikipedia, the "other end" of the feedback system is hidden, waiting for users to rescue to the bewildered newbs...
[2:09pm] StevenW: Admins can delete comments currently.
[2:09pm] matthewrbowker: (sorry, I'm typing slowly today because of an injured hand)
[2:09pm] Chzz: deletion is not the same as supression
[2:09pm] StevenW: So let's make a bug request to add oversighting.
[2:09pm] StevenW: :)
[2:10pm] • matthewrbowker
volunteers
[2:10pm] Maryana: :)
[2:10pm] DeltaQuad: wait so does the deletion totally wipe them from the face of the planet or visible to other admins
[2:10pm] StevenW: I'm sure the features team would be happy to add it. They also recently added in the fact that blocks now apply to giving feedback too.
[2:10pm] Chzz: q feedback pages cannot be edited (apparently) - thus, each comment is an indefinitely fully-protected page. Is that acceptable?
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[2:10pm] Dragonfly6-7: ........ah, I see - the Feedback Dashboiard is not compatible with non-Vector skins, but I suppose that doesn't matter. If you already know how to use skins, then you're not reliant on the Feedback Dashboard.
[2:11pm] Fred_ is now known as Guest3620.
[2:11pm] WilliamH_UK: I'm assuming hidden feedbacks can still be viewed by other admins
[2:11pm] StevenW: Yes
[2:11pm] StevenW: Dragonfly6-7: is it totally broken looking in Monobook?
[2:12pm] Narodnik: Looks fine on monobook to me
[2:12pm] MrBlueSky: for me it works fine in Monobook
[2:12pm] StevenW: okay good
[2:12pm] tommorris: Dragonfly6-7: no, the MoodBar not being compatible with non-Vector isn't an issue. FD *should* be compatible with other skins
[2:12pm] WilliamH_UK: is there a special page for deleted feedbacks?
[2:12pm] StevenW: No.
[2:12pm] StevenW: I have suggested that we have a filter for it.
[2:12pm] StevenW: But it's not set in stone.
[2:13pm] Dragonfly6-7: tommorris - .... what?
[2:13pm] matthewrbowker: Can I get some links to bad feedbacks please? I'm going to include them in the bug report
[2:13pm] Dragonfly6-7: no, I use Classic
[2:13pm] mabdul|busy is now known as mabdul|dog.
[2:13pm] WilliamH_UK: if I click "show hidden feedback", does that mean I'm viewing it or restoring it? I tend to not click stuff if I'm not 100% sure what it does
[2:14pm] StevenW: viewing
[2:14pm] Maryana: those of you who have been actively patrolling the queue: 1) thanks! and 2) can you share with the rest of the folks in the room what the feedback tends to be like?
[2:14pm] StevenW: there is a restore button separately when you view, if you're a sysop
[2:14pm] WilliamH_UK: cool
[2:14pm] Dragonfly6-7: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:FeedbackDashboard/9295
[2:14pm] Maryana: are you finding mostly griping about editing interface, for example?
[2:14pm] Dragonfly6-7: that one's broken?
[2:14pm] Chzz: I reported three concerns, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#Some_problems
[2:14pm] matthewrbowker: Most of it is confused people, who are unable to do references and images. It's easy to send a reply
[2:14pm] Dragonfly6-7: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:FeedbackDashboard/9292 inappropriate
[2:15pm] StevenW: Looks like someone was just trying to type in Arabic.
[2:15pm] Maryana: matthewrbowker: yeah, that's what i'm seeing, mostly
[2:15pm] Dragonfly6-7: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:FeedbackDashboard/9282 VERY bad, has someone's contact details
[2:15pm] StevenW: Yes, that's an oversight candidate
[2:16pm] StevenW: A good one to include in the bug request
[2:16pm] Ebe123: There's a problem with Feedback Dashboard on the incubator (http://incubator.wikimedia.org/). It seems to not work with the WikimediaIncubator (http://mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikimediaIncubator) extension enabled. You may want to vote about it on the bug (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=32772).
[2:16pm] StevenW: Thank Ebe
[2:16pm] Dragonfly6-7: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:FeedbackDashboard/9281 possible mental illness
[2:16pm] StevenW: s
[2:16pm] WilliamH_UK: do entries show up in CheckUser logs?
[2:16pm] Maryana: i think that guy is just frustrated/angry about something. heh.
[2:16pm] tommorris: Dragonfly6-7: might be an idea to not keep posting oversightable material but... pass it on to someone who can handle it
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[2:17pm] Dragonfly6-7: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:FeedbackDashboard/9238 "I want to post vulgar comments on every page"
[2:17pm] StevenW: Yes, there are some happy vandals.
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[2:18pm] tommorris: Dragonfly6-7, StevenW: the response to that was problematic - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Dfaljhgsfdj#feedback-dashboard-response-174
[2:18pm] StevenW: So what kind of feedback do people like/want to respond to? It gets broken down into Happy, Sad, and Confused, but it's still pretty diverse. Do people feel like they know what is good to reply and what isn't, or should we suggest ideas for WP:RESPONSE members?
[2:19pm] Chzz: why was this feature introduced without asking the community if they wanted it?
[2:19pm] filceolaire joined the chat room.
[2:19pm] StevenW: Chzz: not a question we are here to answer. We're not the features developers or product people. :)
[2:19pm] filceolaire: hi
[2:19pm] Dragonfly6-7: oh, that reminds me
[2:19pm] Maryana: hi filceolaire
[2:19pm] Dragonfly6-7: are blocked users still able to use the Feedback Dashboard?
[2:20pm] StevenW: No
[2:20pm] Dragonfly6-7: good
[2:20pm] StevenW: I think filceolaire wins the prize for most feedback replied to lately. :)
[2:20pm] Maryana: we need a leader board, like huggle
[2:20pm] filceolaire: :)
[2:20pm] WilliamH_UK: it ought to be intergrated into checkuser and oversight permissions i'd say
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[2:20pm] StevenW: Or it could go in contribution histories.
[2:20pm] WilliamH_UK: especially oversight for obvious reasons
[2:20pm] StevenW: Yes
[2:21pm] matthewrbowker: To be specific, would are we thinking an option to hide bad comments totally? Or send them to a separate queue?
[2:21pm] WilliamH_UK: they should go into the Suppression log
[2:21pm] WilliamH_UK: that Oversighters have access to
[2:22pm] WilliamH_UK: (speaking as one)
[2:22pm] StevenW: Yes that makes sense.
[2:22pm] Maryana: ok, so we've spent some time talking about bad feedback
[2:22pm] filceolaire: Strategy wiki had a very nice system for talk page conversations. Can we integrate with that?
[2:22pm] Maryana: let's at least devote some of our energy to good feedback, yes?
[2:22pm] Narodnik: Can I ask where you guys are thinking of taking this project once these initial wrinkles are resolved and there's an active team of responders?
[2:22pm] StevenW: that is a good question
[2:23pm] StevenW: personally, and I bet Maryana has an opinion as well as the features developers, I would love to have every single piece of constructive feedback get a reply
[2:23pm] StevenW: that's my goal
[2:23pm] filceolaire: One thing I noticed. Some of the posters who are pleased need to be warned they are about to be deleted
[2:23pm] WilliamH_UK: filceolaire vandals yep?
[2:23pm] jorm: a leader board was actually something i played with in the first iteration of the design.
[2:24pm] Maryana: +1 to steven, and i'd add: responded to in real time, while they're still around making their first edits.
[2:24pm] WilliamH_UK: yup
[2:24pm] StevenW: or as best we can in that department.
[2:24pm] filceolaire: Not just vandals. BLPs without refs and non notable new pages
[2:24pm] WilliamH_UK: filceolaire - so broadly: unconstructive edits
[2:24pm] StevenW: Yeah I have found article work to do based on feedback. :)
[2:24pm] Maryana: so, right now, the angry and sad comments get responses in a more or less timely fashion
[2:24pm] matthewrbowker: Bug added, please comment: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=32799
[2:24pm] StevenW: With stuff like what filceolaire is talking about
[2:25pm] Maryana: what we're seeing is that the happy ones don't
[2:25pm] StevenW: thanks matthew
[2:25pm] Ebe123: All messages by Mr Jolly lives next door, as they were tests. Alos, I think that feedback should be added to a log and to the contributions page
[2:25pm] MrBlueSky: at wp-nl we get only a few responses per day, so it would be nice to have some system of getting warned when there is a new response
[2:25pm] Ebe123: Yes, a log.
[2:25pm] MrBlueSky: for example through the watch list
[2:25pm] matthewrbowker: StevenW: NP
[2:25pm] matthewrbowker: :)
[2:25pm] filceolaire: Constructive but just not a good fit with us
[2:25pm] StevenW: Right
[2:25pm] Maryana: mrbluesky: really, only a few per day?
[2:25pm] Maryana: interesting
[2:25pm] jorm: i actually think that the positive ones should get comments as well. they aren't currently.
[2:25pm] matthewrbowker left the chat room. (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[2:25pm] MrBlueSky: yes, about 3 to 5
[2:26pm] WilliamH_UK: jorm I like that
[2:26pm] Narodnik: StevenW: I think we can all agree that a response to all feedback would be a great improvement over the status quo.
[2:26pm] Narodnik: Is the idea then to generally leave the noobs at the mercy of the site after the initial feedback/response though?
[2:26pm] StevenW: I hope not.
[2:26pm] Chzz: my earlier questions seem to have been missed or disregarded: I will repeat one point: There should be some way to indicate that feedback has been 'responded' to, without putting a message on the talk page. For example, if one investigates an issue, and it has already been resolved. Or, if one finds that the user has been blocked.
[2:26pm] filceolaire: If they get a response then they have a contact
[2:26pm] matthewrbowker joined the chat room.
[2:26pm] matthewrbowker: Sorry, browser fail...
[2:26pm] StevenW: Chzz, yeah I agree that might be a good idea.
[2:27pm] Narodnik: So would we ultimately be looking at integrating this into a mentoresque scheme, so noobs don't fall between the cracks?
[2:27pm] filceolaire: mentoresque. Good
[2:27pm] filceolaire: Not all noobs leave this though
[2:27pm] StevenW: I don't know. I would think it's a good idea. But if it gets a lot bigger and we really push for that, do we think the current adoption system or the like could handle it?
[2:28pm] Maryana: narodnik: possibly. i think, as filceolaire pointed out, it's about establishing contact with a human
[2:28pm] jorm: that would be my hope, eventually, narodnik.
[2:28pm] Maryana: which is an incredibly important thing for new users on any site
[2:28pm] Narodnik: It might be a good idea to overhaul the whole lot, but that's far down the road I suppose.
[2:28pm] Narodnik: Maryana: yup, exactly.
[2:28pm] WilliamH_UK: There's also the issue that with one person, presumeably responding to more than one individual, would eventually get overwhelmed with mentees
[2:29pm] Chzz: no, we couldn't handle it. We don't have enough 'helpers' as it is. That's why FEED failed, that's why AFC is backlogged and blocked up. There's not enough good editors; there's too much focus on 'huggle' and template warnings, etc.
[2:29pm] Maryana: what we've seen with mentorship programs is that the people who join them are already primed to be good wikipedians, too
[2:29pm] jorm: any mentorship system will have to be scaled and gated by mentors, not mentees.
[2:29pm] BarkingFish left the chat room. ("*.fish *.filleted")
[2:29pm] StevenW: So when I know I might not be around, what I have tried to do is make sure people know the Help Desk or another specifically appropriate forum exists.
[2:30pm] Chzz: unfortunately, I think this 'feature' will attract exactly the wrong type of editor. And I imagine we will soon have 'feedback responses' saying "Ha lol, u idiot!!!11"
[2:30pm] WilliamH_UK: yup jorm
[2:30pm] Narodnik: So, in the interim Chzz, if we can't give personal attention to each new editor, what do we do about retention?
[2:30pm] jorm: Well, there's no evidence that it's working that way, Chzz.
[2:30pm] Chzz: Narodnik fix the core problem; start blocking uncivil people
[2:30pm] filceolaire: The BB system on strategy wiki automatcally notified you of comments on a converstaion you are following. When will that be rolled out?
[2:30pm] YairRand_: that was liquidthreads
[2:30pm] WilliamH_UK: Chzz in the event that does happen, an easy situation would be to prohibit non-confirmed users from giving feedback
[2:31pm] WilliamH_UK: or even a userright
[2:31pm] filceolaire: Yes. liquidthreads
[2:31pm] WilliamH_UK: but that's a bit too processy maybe
[2:31pm] StevenW: Yeah LiquidThreads is a whole nother conversation. :)
[2:31pm] tommorris: Maryana: there's also the problem that deliberately malicious editors can use mentorship programmes to be seen as good Wikipedians - the case with Steven_Zhang and 'Political Master' (aka. OneWhoHelps) a while back was a perfect example of where a long-term socker misused the good faith of mentoring
[2:31pm] filceolaire: I've used both and I think they would work well together
[2:31pm] Chzz: WilliamH_UK it would be extremely hard to get consensus for such a new permission. Lots have tried similar things, with no real success
[2:32pm] WilliamH_UK: to welcome users?
[2:32pm] Maryana: tommorris: sure. what i meant is that the people who join mentorship programs don't need help with the basics anymore.
[2:32pm] StevenW: Question: do people feel like a short video and written examples of how to respond to different types of feedback would be helpful?
[2:32pm] StevenW: I was thinking of making like, a 5 min screencast with quick pointers
[2:32pm] tommorris: Chzz: if we blocked uncivil users, who would there be left to write the featured articles? You seem not to have the memo that if you write a FA, you are now exempt from WP:CIVILITY. ;)
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[2:32pm] matthewrbowker: StevenW: Yes,that would help
[2:32pm] Chzz: WilliamH_UK <marginally off-topic, but you asked> The other obvious way to help is, to stop new users creating live articles - 70%+ of them are deleted, so they all get horrid warnings; if instead they went through a process like AFC, they'd get help instead of BITE. And NPP would be massively reduced, freeing up man-power to help more
[2:32pm] WilliamH_UK: please please provide a transcript of the video, and an equally comprehensive written guide
[2:33pm] WilliamH_UK: both should be sufficient
[2:33pm] Alpha_Quadrant: tommorris: that is a problem
[2:33pm] StevenW: Okay, will do William
[2:33pm] Chzz: WilliamH_UK unfortunately, the consensus approval for just that - as a trial - was rejected by WMF
[2:33pm] filceolaire: If theres a new screen cast put it on an existing help page or it gets lost
[2:33pm] StevenW: I don't want to talk here about what-ifs like other options.
[2:33pm] filceolaire: we ahve too much help now
[2:33pm] tommorris: StevenW: yes, or more importantly would be to show with data and anecodtes why WP:RESPONSE is an important use of volunteer time.
[2:33pm] StevenW: We could be here all day. ;)
[2:33pm] WilliamH_UK: I loathe having to wait for a video to spoonfeed me information when I can get it from reading/searching the article in a fraction of the time instead
[2:33pm] Guest3620: Steven: Tutorial videos are a perfect get-around of tl;dr Great idea
[2:33pm] StevenW: Oh, good point Tom.
[2:34pm] WilliamH_UK: chzz I see what you mean
[2:34pm] StevenW: Has everyone seen the toolserver page with charts of the feedback being given,?
[2:34pm] matthewrbowker: No
[2:34pm] Maryana: as far as anecdotes go, you all are the ones who should share those with us!
[2:34pm] tommorris: StevenW: include that in the video, because between NPP, CSD, AfD, OTRS, #wikipedia-en-help, there's lots of ways experienced volunteers and admins can help, so to get them to do any particular thing needs a bit of a salesjob
[2:34pm] StevenW: http://toolserver.org/~dartar/moodbar/
[2:35pm] Maryana: we should probably have some page onwiki, in fact. for sharing success stories. because i know there've already been quite a few
[2:35pm] Maryana: :)
[2:35pm] tommorris: Maryana, StevenW: my FeedbackDashboard anecodote for today - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Borkfisch
[2:35pm] matthewrbowker: Maryana: I think that's a good idea :)
[2:35pm] filceolaire: Feedback from the dashboard - We need WYSIWYG
[2:35pm] Maryana: tommorris: nice!
[2:35pm] StevenW: That is awesome Tom. :)
[2:35pm] Maryana: filceolaire: yeah, that's the gist of a lot of these feedback items
[2:36pm] Maryana: and an easier system to upload photos
[2:36pm] matthewrbowker: O.O Speaking of feedback from the dashboard, can the software auto-append signatures to the feedback? I've seen 1/2 dozen without sigs
[2:36pm] tommorris: has there been any plan in quantifying incoming feedback: we get lots of those kinds of things on OTRS too
[2:37pm] StevenW: You mean signatures by the people leaving feedback? Or in the responses to the feedback?
[2:37pm] matthewrbowker: StevenW: Responses.
[2:37pm] StevenW: It does it automatically now.
[2:37pm] matthewrbowker: O.O I'm obviously 2 days out of date. That's awesome!
[2:37pm] filceolaire: replies to responses get lost
[2:37pm] Maryana: tommorris: yes, that would be awesome! unfortunately, stevenw and i are stretched pretty thin as it is
[2:38pm] StevenW: Can you expand on that filceolaire?
[2:38pm] filceolaire: thats why I want liquidthreads
[2:38pm] StevenW: Ah, so you see when more follow up is needed.
[2:38pm] StevenW: Or when we missed good pieces of feedback to respond to.
[2:38pm] filceolaire: I got a reply as another comment with a smiley instead of to my page
[2:39pm] StevenW: Maybe just putting "There have been X pieces of feedback today, and X have been responded to." on the Dashboard would help?
[2:39pm] Maryana: filceolaire: you mean someone replied to you by giving more feedback?
[2:39pm] filceolaire: yes
[2:39pm] jorm: there has been discussion about keeping the entire feedback->response->response chain within the feedback dashboard.
[2:39pm] Maryana: that happened to stevenw, too, and they even used "@steven walling" :)
[2:39pm] StevenW: Yeah, it was crazy!
[2:39pm] jorm: the current thinking is that moving things to talk pages is best for a couple reasons.
[2:39pm] jorm: not the least of which is "introducing users to the standards of talk pages earlier is better"
[2:40pm] matthewrbowker: I think moving to talk pages is best, myself. Less confusion...
[2:40pm] jorm: i personally loathe talk pages with the heat of a thousand fiery suns.
[2:40pm] jorm: but yes. less confusion.
[2:40pm] StevenW: heh
[2:40pm] tommorris: if we are to replace talk pages, we need to replace them properly rather than by the backdoor.
[2:40pm] filceolaire: but the whole reply on the other page thing is confusing
[2:41pm] Guest3620: Jorm: Ideal if possible. How would that account for stray messages? Could they be reintegrated. There are so many options for where to respond, the system might find it gets holes in the flow.
[2:41pm] StevenW: So one solution to that, filceolaire, is to say outright "You can reply here and I will see it". Then watchlist their talk.
[2:41pm] StevenW: I know it doesn't quite scale
[2:41pm] StevenW: but maybe better than nothing
[2:41pm] filceolaire: unless they reply a week later when they actually have a problem
[2:42pm] tommorris: perhaps one suggestion would be to include one or two lines of <small> stuff automatcially in responses (with a checkbox to turn them off). they could be set on a MediaWiki: page so admins could change them for the site. but basically, they'd say things like "If you can't get any response, try help desk or email info-en" etc.
[2:42pm] StevenW: Or just automatically email them with that after they leave a piece of feedback. Say thanks and where to go for more help.
[2:42pm] matthewrbowker: tommorris: O.O Excellent idea! Or maybe they could be user-defined?
[2:42pm] Maryana: tommorris: i like that idea, except then it begins to look suspiciously like robo-help
[2:42pm] tommorris: matthewrbowker: user-overridable perhaps?
[2:43pm] jorm: we're going to be building some better notification system stuff. hopefully that will help with the "conversation happening in multiple places" thign.
[2:43pm] Hubertl left the chat room. (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111104165243])
[2:43pm] matthewrbowker: tommorris: Ya, that would work too :P
[2:43pm] Guest3620: Jorm: Awesome
[2:43pm] jorm: we are very specifically wanting to avoid a robo-help thing.
[2:43pm] filceolaire: Or just change the system to one that doesn't need to be explained
[2:43pm] filceolaire: like liquidthreads
[2:43pm] tommorris: Maryana: yeah, perhaps just a link next to the sig saying something like "(Confused? Click here.)" or something (I don't like "Click here" for the usual information architecture reasons)
[2:43pm] jorm: new users shouldn't be seeing the feedback dashboard.
[2:44pm] matthewrbowker: jorm: Can they? Could we limit the access to autoconfirmed using a hack?
[2:44pm] tommorris: basically, if they get the talk page message and haven't got a damn clue what to do, perhaps there could be some way of pointing them to how to respond
[2:44pm] jorm: they can if they go looking for it. but we don't want to send them there.
[2:44pm] jorm: and no, we shouldn't limit the access, i think.
[2:45pm] filceolaire: jorm: So new users can't see what they posted thats being replied to?
[2:45pm] matthewrbowker: jorm: OK, I misread. Sorry :(
[2:45pm] Guest3620: Could the response contain a form with textarea and submit that auto sends to the user who gave the response?
[2:45pm] YairRand_: so how about replacing the thing with a button to post an LQT post on Project:FeedbackDashboard?
[2:45pm] jorm: filceolaire: yes, they can. i meant that users shouldn't be sent to the feedback dashboard to go and get help.
[2:45pm] tommorris: Guest3620: that sounds suspiciously like bringing LiquidThreads in by the back door.
[2:46pm] filceolaire: or the front door
[2:46pm] Guest3620: Btw. I'm Fred gandt but have no clue how to set my nick
[2:46pm] filceolaire: why can't I have it now
[2:46pm] filceolaire: ?
[2:46pm] jorm: type /nick FredGandt
[2:46pm] Guest3620: ty
[2:46pm] Guest3620 is now known as FredGandt.
[2:46pm] Maryana: hi fred. thought that might be you :)
[2:46pm] StevenW: :)
[2:46pm] FredGandt: whoot
[2:47pm] StevenW: So I have one more idea to float... If you could respond to feedback from a mobile Web version of the Dashboard, would you?
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[2:47pm] jorm: LiquidThreads isn't quite ready for prime time. There's a lot of "joy" that needs to be added to it.
[2:47pm] tommorris: StevenW: YES. Just bought a new Android phone. And I need things to do on the train.
[2:47pm] jorm: yeah, mobile...
[2:47pm] Alpha_Quadrant: jorm: LT is terrible
[2:47pm] jorm: we ware looking at the idea of using moodbar to get feedback from the mobile beta.
[2:47pm] Maryana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:New_editor_feedback/Response_team#Success_stories
[2:48pm] Maryana: just a start. feel free to edit away.
[2:48pm] tommorris: answering FeedbackDashboard posts is a lot less likely to show me 'My micropenis.jpg' than doing new files patrolling on Commons, so that sounds fun
[2:48pm] FredGandt: I would use mobile dasgboard if I had a mobile. Nice to sit in the park chatting
[2:49pm] StevenW: Interesting.
[2:49pm] filceolaire: I spent a lot of time hovering over the Contribs tag seeing what they had done
[2:49pm] StevenW: which would be hard to see on mobile
[2:49pm] tommorris: of course, if I could delete things easily from a smartphone, that'd be even more awesome. ;-)
[2:49pm] StevenW: it's one potential pitfall
[2:49pm] filceolaire: Could I do that on a mobile interface
[2:50pm] StevenW: Not in the current mobile skin, no. It would have to be built.
[2:50pm] jorm: mobile doesn't have contribs, diffs, or history
[2:50pm] filceolaire: Without that my response would not be as good
[2:50pm] matthewrbowker: jorm: It does, just as the regular interface :P Lots of zooming there...
[2:51pm] FredGandt: Too complex , big (for screen) or bandwidth issues?
[2:51pm] brion: main complication is just that MobileFrontend replaces the entire HTML UI
[2:51pm] jorm: ladies and gentlemen, brion vibber.
[2:51pm] StevenW: :)
[2:51pm] matthewrbowker: :D
[2:51pm] StevenW: So, it sounds like contribs, diffs, and history are something we'd want first.
[2:52pm] filceolaire: The problem is the Feedback comments all assume I know what they have been doing
[2:52pm] brion: shit, i've decloaked ;)
[2:52pm] brion: shields up!
[2:52pm] mabdul|dog is now known as mabdul.
[2:52pm] jorm: we're going to start planning our next feature sprint for the tool soon.
[2:52pm] jorm: is there anything that we can add that will make "feedback patrol" easier?
[2:52pm] StevenW: Other than oversight. ;)
[2:53pm] brion: once we figure out how to make 'decent smartphone' version of mobilefrontend be basically the _same_ as the standard interface but with various bits moved around, then it should become easier to make special pages and such work
[2:53pm] jorm: i'm thinking of things like "hover over this to see the last 5 contribs" and such.
[2:53pm] FredGandt: Speciffically on mobile or not?
[2:53pm] Maryana: jorm: is there a wiki page we can direct people to to give ideas for that, too?
[2:53pm] filceolaire: Liquidthreads like conversations on the noobs talk page
[2:53pm] StevenW: No, in general Fred.
[2:53pm] Narodnik: perhaps a distinction to "no response yet", "response" and "more response needed", like in OTRS?
[2:54pm] jorm: we don't have a wiki other than New Editor Feedback, I think.
[2:54pm] FredGandt: I still think a toggle for hiding answered feedback would clean up the dashboard
[2:54pm] jorm: Yeah, actually, a toggle for that is already on the docket, I believe.
[2:54pm] StevenW: Sweet.
[2:54pm] Maryana: nice.
[2:54pm] YairRand_: replace "v More" with endless scrolling, have a quick, simple, "Reply" button that doesn't leave the page, supply more info, such as what page the user was on...
[2:54pm] jorm: "more response needed". How would that work?
[2:55pm] jorm: the reply button *doesn't* leave the page, currently.
[2:55pm] Maryana: an accretive response system...?
[2:55pm] jorm: so, okay. showing what page the user was on...
[2:55pm] StevenW: Agree with Yair about endless scrolling.
[2:55pm] FredGandt: "font size" settings. It looks great as is but once used to it, it might be considered a little large
[2:55pm] jorm: that's a thing we have conversations about.
[2:55pm] jorm: we have the data. it's stored.
[2:55pm] jorm: but i feel that we can't really include that because it's not *editive*
[2:55pm] Narodnik: jorm: so in new page patrol, a page doesn't get removed from the log until it's been marked patrolled, meaning "we're done here"
[2:56pm] jorm: and may violate teh privacy policy.
[2:56pm] Narodnik: "this has been responded to" isn't quite as indicative of the status of the feedback
[2:56pm] Maryana: narodnik: i do like that. we could actually rate responses, even.
[2:57pm] YairRand_: "Did this answer your question?"
[2:57pm] matthewrbowker: Maryana: That might be a little overhead, though :(
[2:57pm] jorm: okay, i see what you're saying.
[2:57pm] StevenW: Oooh. Yeah. "Did this answer your question?"
[2:57pm] filceolaire: jump it back to the top if they respond to the reply (like liquid threads :)
[2:57pm] jorm: my fear is that we start complicating everything.
[2:57pm] mabdul: looks bad in modern
[2:57pm] StevenW: Yo dawg, we heard you like feedback, so we put feedback in your feedback so you can...
[2:57pm] Maryana: haha
[2:57pm] jorm: right.
[2:58pm] jorm: i'm crazily hungover today.
[2:58pm] Maryana: thanks for the feedback!
[2:58pm] Maryana: :)
[2:58pm] jorm: heh.
[2:58pm] StevenW: haha. jorm had a crazy Saturday night I guess.
[2:58pm] FredGandt: "Add to basket" way of grabbing a load of feedbacks and storing them to deal with off-page?
[2:58pm] Maryana: fredgandt: yes! something to that effect would be great
[2:58pm] jorm: "playing assassin's creed until three am. while drinking whiskey"
[2:58pm] filceolaire: Toggle to show the responses to feedback - like a news group
[2:58pm] Maryana: i want to save for later
[2:58pm] tommorris: thanks StevenW and Maryana for the hard work on MoodBar/FeedbackDashboard
[2:59pm] StevenW: Heh. All we did was ask people to use it. Other people built the thing. :)
[2:59pm] Maryana: yup. thank jorm and the features team :)
[2:59pm] jorm: we also store the responses that were sent *from* the dashboard. we could display those.
[2:59pm] tommorris: thanks jorm!
[2:59pm] Narodnik: Thanks to all involved, yes, it's a very promising innovation.
[2:59pm] StevenW: that would not be bad
[2:59pm] filceolaire: Yes please - toggle on or off
[2:59pm] FredGandt: Indeed
[2:59pm] • jorm
just the designer.
[2:59pm] Maryana: thanks mostly to everybody who's been using it!
[3:00pm] StevenW: Does anyone have any questions left before we wrap up?
[3:00pm] jorm: benny and rob and andrew and timo coded it.
[3:00pm] jorm: and roan waved his magic wand over it.
[3:00pm] matthewrbowker: Not really, it's great!
[3:00pm] • tommorris
goes off to WP:RESPONSE to sign up.
[3:00pm] Maryana: yay! thanks, matthewrbowker
[3:00pm] Maryana: awesome
[3:00pm] filceolaire: that way a second reponder can add something
[3:00pm] MrBlueSky: would it be possible to make the dashboard includable?
[3:00pm] Maryana: yes, please evangelize, too
[3:00pm] jorm: hrm. that's an idea.
[3:00pm] Maryana: go out there and recruit more responders
[3:00pm] jorm: transcluding special pages, though, i don't know.
[3:01pm] StevenW: Or even just pieces of feedback?
[3:01pm] StevenW: I think you can do that. You can include newpages I think
[3:01pm] MrBlueSky: just the latest items
[3:01pm] filceolaire: Is every feedback comment tied to a page?
[3:01pm] filceolaire: or to a user?
[3:01pm] FredGandt: Like embedded in your own talk page? That would be cool.
[3:01pm] jorm: hrm.
[3:01pm] MrBlueSky: yes, exactly
[3:02pm] jorm: …. that would solve for some of our weirder problems.
[3:02pm] MrBlueSky: on small wikis that would be very usefull
[3:02pm] filceolaire: The feedback comments seemed to be about a page - often it was the user page but not always
[3:02pm] FredGandt: Active userbox
[3:02pm] filceolaire: Liquid threads does that
[3:02pm] Maryana: mrbluesky, thanks for the advice, and please do keep us updated on how the FD is working out on nl.wiki.
[3:02pm] filceolaire: No point inventing it twice
[3:03pm] FredGandt: The javascriping would be simple enough for that and all you need is an embedded div with id feedback-blah
[3:03pm] MrBlueSky: you're welcome and i will :)
[3:03pm] StevenW: Alright, I need to go. People should feel welcome to keep chatting though.
[3:03pm] StevenW: Thanks for showing up and participating everyone.
[3:03pm] FredGandt: See ya Steven
[3:03pm] Maryana: yes, thank you all!