IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-01-13

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[18:54] * fabriceflorin (~fabricefl@c-98-210-230-160.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #wikimedia-office
[18:57] <fabriceflorin> Happy Friday the 13th, everyone!
[18:57] * Fluffernutter (Fluffernut@wikipedia/Fluffernutter) has joined #wikimedia-office
[18:57] <Ironholds> fabriceflorin: that may be the first time anyone has said that in all of history
[18:57] <Ironholds> *happy* Friday 13th?
[18:57] <varnent> five minute reminder about MediaWiki Workshop: Preparing extensions for MediaWiki 1.19 in #wikimedia-dev - https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:WikiProject_Extensions/MediaWiki_Workshops
[18:57] <tommorris> why not, eh?
[18:57] * Retrieving #wikimedia-office modes...
[18:58] * Ironholds changes topic to 'IRC office hours -- subject is WP:AFT5 - the new version of the Article Feedback Tool. | This channel is publicly logged during meetings.�'
[18:58] <tommorris> Triskaidekaphobia is terribly silly.
[18:58] <fabriceflorin> MIght as well be happy. Sadness will not get us anywhere ... ;o)
[18:58] <Fluffernutter> *humans* are terribly silly
[18:58] <tommorris> that Paraskevidekatriaphobia is a valid redirect makes me happy.
[18:58] <Ironholds> Fluffernutter: FBI agents are silly
[18:58] * Fluffernutter looks shifty, denies it entirely
[18:59] <Ironholds> we have a Utar, but no Bensin
[18:59] <Ironholds> is he ill?
[18:59] * KFP (~KFP@wikipedia/KFP) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:00] <fabriceflorin> Hey Oliver, can you turn on Skype, please?
[19:00] * Excirial (~Excirial@wikipedia/Excirial) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:00] <Utar> no Bensin left, all parts used
[19:00] <fabriceflorin> We will have to reconstitute Bensin from scratch ;o)
[19:01] <Utar> what about aaron?
[19:01] <Ironholds> fabriceflorin: indeedy! Sorry, I was eating dinner; didn't think that "Sounds of Ironholds Eating a Curry (Op. 12)" was the sort of music you'd enjoy ;p
[19:01] <KFP> What about diesel? ._.
[19:01] <fabriceflorin> Cool, sounds good. I just ended breakfast ;o)
[19:01] <Ironholds> I hate you. you and your timezones.
[19:02] <Utar> ff, wait I need to cut a slice of bread
[19:02] <Utar> or two, rather
[19:02] <Ironholds> I had a meeting at 1am yesterday. *1am*.
[19:02] <fabriceflorin> I know, that is nuts.
[19:03] <Utar> I really don't want to know what you have been doing on meeting at 1 am, Ironholds.
[19:04] * Fluffernutter (Fluffernut@wikipedia/Fluffernutter) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[19:04] * Fluffernutter (Fluffernut@ool-18b948d6.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:04] * howief (~howiefung@216.38.130.166) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:04] * Fluffernutter (Fluffernut@ool-18b948d6.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (Changing host)
[19:04] * Fluffernutter (Fluffernut@wikipedia/Fluffernutter) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:05] * DarTar (~DarTar@wikimedia/DarTar) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:05] <Ironholds> hey howief, DarTar
[19:05] <DarTar> hi there
[19:05] <Ironholds> Fluffernutter: you need better intertubes
[19:05] <Ironholds> okay, so! Office hours :)
[19:05] <fabriceflorin> Hey everyone.
[19:05] <tommorris> salutations Foundationers
[19:05] <Fluffernutter> i know...if it happens again i'll drop to keep from disrupting your hour
[19:06] <howief> hi!
[19:06] <Ironholds> Fluffernutter: naw, it's cool. All are welcome, even those with shitty connections ;p
[19:06] <tommorris> can we all shout and scream ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE about SOPA tonight?
[19:06] <Ironholds> tommorris: that was last night
[19:06] <Ironholds> you're also welcome to shout about it tomorrow night, but not tonight ;p
[19:06] <Ironholds> anyway. So, welcome KFP, Fluffernutter, Utar, tommorris and..who else do we have?
[19:06] <Utar> tchor
[19:07] <Ironholds> ahh, tchor|noutbuk, are you one of the czech wikipedians Utar has been talking to? Lovely to see you :)
[19:07] <KFP> Welcome, Ironholds.
[19:09] <Ironholds> KFP: lovely to see you :)
[19:09] <Ironholds> okay, so first on the agenda; feedback evaluation/hand coding
[19:10] <Narson> It strikes me that I should, one day, add Oliver to skype and save myself from wanting to throw my phone across the room
[19:10] <Ironholds> Narson: you should ;p
[19:10] <Ironholds> ah, and we have a Narson in the chat too
[19:10] <Ironholds> so, is everyone familiar with the feedback evaluation?
[19:10] <Ironholds> Utar, I know you are ;p
[19:10] <fabriceflorin> Here's the link to our Feedback evaluation test page, where people can read more about the hand-coding project:
[19:10] <fabriceflorin> http://toolserver.org/~grphack/feedback_quality/test.html
[19:10] <Narson> Nope.
[19:10] <Utar> hey, my precious respond.....
[19:10] <Ironholds> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_Feedback_Tool/Version_5/Feedback_evaluation :)
[19:10] <Ironholds> Narson, give it a read
[19:11] <Utar> torned in pieces
[19:11] * tashir (4306837d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.6.131.125) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:11] <fabriceflorin> This last link is a test page that shows what the hand-coding tool looks like ...
[19:11] <Ironholds> Utar: sorry?
[19:11] <Ironholds> tashir, welcome. You taking part in office hours? :)
[19:11] <tashir> yeah sorry I'm late
[19:11] <fabriceflorin> The link that Oliver just shared is the link to the feedback evaluation project overview page, my bad.
[19:11] <Utar> i was writing answer to your question and than that....
[19:11] <fabriceflorin> Hey tashir, welcome!
[19:11] <Ironholds> tashir: that's okay :)
[19:11] <Ironholds> Utar: ahh
[19:11] * GorillaWarfare (~GorillaWa@wikipedia/GorillaWarfare) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:11] <Ironholds> Sorry ;p
[19:11] <Ironholds> GorillaWarfare, welcome!
[19:12] <Ironholds> Utar, GorillaWarfare is the reason there's nothing more for you to categorise
[19:12] <Utar> no problem, hms I
[19:12] <tommorris> fabriceflorin: is that page live?
[19:12] <Ironholds> look sternly at her ;p
[19:12] <fabriceflorin> Hi GorillaWarfare, good to see you again!
[19:12] <Ironholds> then give her a thank-you
[19:12] <GorillaWarfare> Hello all :]
[19:12] <tommorris> fabriceflorin: as in, if I push buttons on it am I actually contributing to something useful?
[19:12] <Narson> Oh, very nice.
[19:12] <Utar> i have things to cat. but it is wrecked
[19:12] <Narson> God bless evaluation forms.
[19:12] <Ironholds> tommorris: no, that's just a test-page :)
[19:12] <fabriceflorin> tomorris, no, this is just a test page, you can push buttons and nothing will be recorded
[19:12] <Ironholds> Narson: thank Aaron for that
[19:12] <Ironholds> tommorris: this is not an invitation to go mental with no reprecussions
[19:12] <Ironholds> :P
[19:13] <fabriceflorin> but Oliver can give you your own tool, if you sign up for the hand-coding program.
[19:13] <Ironholds> which can be done at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_Feedback_Tool/Version_5/Feedback_evaluation#Volunteering
[19:13] <Ironholds> (hint, hint)
[19:13] * tommorris did intend to sign up for the hand-coding program, but never got around to it
[19:13] <Ironholds> tommorris: then do so!
[19:14] <Utar> but you have to make a pack with GW to have enough work to do
[19:14] <Ironholds> we've had around 700 pieces coded in the last sprint, which is simply tremendous
[19:14] <Narson> Oh, a way I can do wiki work in a regulated anal retentive manner. Huzzah
[19:14] <Ironholds> big thanks to Dcoetzee, sonia, GorillaWarfare and Bensin and Utar, who did the vast majority of the work
[19:14] <Narson> (To be clear, that isn't sarcasm)
[19:14] <howief> yes, thank you!!
[19:14] <Ironholds> and everyone else who participated - we love you too :)
[19:14] <tommorris> my edit summary: "do more unpaid work for Wikipedia? of course!"
[19:14] <Ironholds> we've still got a bit of a way to go, though, so if anyone has finished their hand-coding and wants more to do, say so here or drop me an email
[19:15] <Utar> i did 10 and they are now undone :[
[19:15] <Ironholds> or sign up at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_Feedback_Tool/Version_5/Feedback_evaluation#Volunteering if you haven't already :)
[19:15] <fabriceflorin> The hand-coding project is really important to us, because it helps us evaluate how well the feedback forms are performing in providing helpful, actionable suggestions to the editors.
[19:15] <Ironholds> Utar: yeah, I've poked Aaron about the issue :(
[19:15] <Thehelpfulone> so Ironholds, when can I expect being contacted by yourself? ;)
[19:15] <Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: did you sign up? ;p
[19:15] <Thehelpfulone> 30 seconds ago :D
[19:15] <Ironholds> then "immediately after office hours" :)
[19:15] <Utar> f5
[19:15] <Narson> He ECed me.
[19:15] <Thehelpfulone> Narson: tommorris ECed me
[19:15] <Narson> This is how wars start.
[19:15] <fabriceflorin> So we hope that a few of you will sign up right away, and help us hand-code more data in coming days.
[19:16] <Thehelpfulone> although Narson you might want to login
[19:16] <Narson> Too lazy. >.>
[19:16] * tommorris causes so many conflicts.
[19:16] <Ironholds> Narson: hehe
[19:16] <Utar> Ironholds, you should send more people to making feedback or handcoders will got lazy
[19:16] <Ironholds> thank you to everyone who just signed up, and to everyone who has done feedback so far :)
[19:16] <Ironholds> I'll be in touch with all of you immediately after this session
[19:16] <Thehelpfulone> lovely
[19:17] <Ironholds> Utar: that's true! fabriceflorin, get all the staffers to type junk into the form, quick!
[19:17] <Ironholds> otherwise everyone'll get bored!
[19:17] <fabriceflorin> We hope to make a decision on which form to optimize for by next Friday, once we have analyzed the results of our metrics data, hand-coding data, and all the recommendations from our community.
[19:18] <howief> so one more thing
[19:18] <howief> dario has included a per-article view of the comment stream
[19:18] <howief> in addition to the hand coding
[19:18] <howief> i think it will be helpful for folks to look at how the comments on a per-article basis
[19:18] <DarTar> hey guys
[19:18] <howief> since that's the way they will (approximately) appear when the feedback page is up
[19:18] <tommorris> once this goes live, what plans do the foundation have for actually handling feedback coming in? the FeedbackDashboard posts aren't getting responded to much at the moment.
[19:18] <DarTar> link is here: http://toolserver.org/~dartar/aft5/articles/?p=Global+warming
[19:19] <fabriceflorin> Good suggestion, Howie!
[19:19] <DarTar> you can look up any article from the random sample or from the additional list
[19:19] <howief> that's something that's up for discussion
[19:19] * Chmee2 (~opera@89-24-210-206.i4g.tmcz.cz) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:19] <Chmee2> hi
[19:19] <DarTar> and see how much comment and what type of comments we're getting by design
[19:19] <howief> yup
[19:19] <Utar> hi, bus runner
[19:19] <Ironholds> hey, Chmee2 :). Here for office hours?
[19:19] <howief> the cool thing about hand coding is that it's more scientific because comments are randomized
[19:19] <Ironholds> and because it's randomised, it's also more of a suprise
[19:20] <Ironholds> who said science couldn't be fun?
[19:20] <howief> the downside is that you don't get to see them as they'll appear when the feedback page is live
[19:20] <DarTar> yes, we are definitely not using the additional list for hand coding because it's not representative of WP as a whole
[19:20] <Chmee2> Ironholds: utar said me that here is talk about AFT5. I am just trying press on cs.wiki...
[19:20] <howief> I think we should incorporate both perspectives when picking a winner
[19:20] <Ironholds> Chmee2: gotcha :)
[19:20] <fabriceflorin> Note that the increase in responses in recent days is likely due to the fact that we launched a more prominent feedback button at the lower right hand corner of the page (Option D)
[19:20] <Doug_Weller> How do you look up an article from the random sample?
[19:20] <Ironholds> hey, Doug_Weller! Didn't see you there
[19:21] <Doug_Weller> Lurking in the corner :'_
[19:21] <GorillaWarfare> Ironholds: I've added my name to that list; feel free to send me more :]
[19:21] <Ironholds> GorillaWarfare: awesome!
[19:21] <tashir> I was going to ask a question about the yes/no (found what I was looking for questions' answers) in the stream, but it looks like you took that out
[19:22] <fabriceflorin> tommorris, we will address part of your question about how feedback will be processed when we discuss the feedback page later in this IRC chat.
[19:22] <tommorris> oh god, on the Global warming page, "does the penis go into the vagina or the other way arond"
[19:22] <tashir> oh here it is: http://toolserver.org/~dartar/aft5/stream/?c=&o=1
[19:22] * tommorris spent a week going through RfA hell to deal with how is babby formed?
[19:22] <Ironholds> tashir: feel free to ask :)
[19:22] * tommorris sighs at the Internet.
[19:23] <Ironholds> tommorris: we are all laughing at that and feeling horrible about doing so
[19:23] <fabriceflorin> We will eventually integrate parts of that feedback page in the talk page, but we are working one step at a time. First the feedback forms, then the feedback button, then the feedback page, then the talk page integration.
[19:23] <Ironholds> tommorris: actually, you'd be amazed
[19:23] <Ironholds> DarTar found this fantastic line
[19:23] <Ironholds> "Hybodontidae - Temporal range of hybodontidae extends only to the late cretaceous and not into the cenozoic".
[19:23] <DarTar> tommorris: that's the first time we see what the average world population thinks about any random WP topic
[19:23] * vigorous_afk (~v_a@wikimedia/vigorous-action) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[19:24] <Utar> tommoris: try RfC if you don't know the answer
[19:24] <Narson> I somehow expect a lot of feedback about how awful things are from Kohs
[19:24] <Ironholds> Narson: he provides that anyway
[19:24] <Ironholds> and blocked users can't provide feedback
[19:24] <fabriceflorin> This is just one example of the types of feedback we are getting. Some of it is very useful, some of it not so much, and a smaller portion is inappropriate. But anecdotally, the results are very encouraging.
[19:25] <Utar> even nonEnglish comments are appearing there
[19:25] <tashir> my question is moot because the stream looks more coherent (but still very incoherent) than a few days ago when I could only find a few valid-seeming responses. Now I can only ask, could you please add article hyperlinks to the page_title column so it's easier to navagate?
[19:25] * vigorous_afk (~v_a@wikimedia/vigorous-action) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:25] <DarTar> just to remind everybody, we released a new version of AFT5 this week
[19:26] * tommorris wonders if ClueBot could be run across incoming feedback. Or perhaps Stupidfilter or a general Bayesian spam filter.
[19:26] <Ironholds> tommorris: spam and abuse filters are already on the to-do list :)
[19:26] <DarTar> we are testing with a new fixed-positioned feedback link that appears at �the bottom right corner of each AFT5-enabled article
[19:26] <howief> tommorris: we're planning on using AbuseFilter
[19:26] <tashir> also I would like to filter http://toolserver.org/~dartar/aft5/stream/?c=&o=1 on found=0 only please, because I don't care about the happy people who found what they wanted :-/
[19:27] <Utar> http://toolserver.org/~dartar/aft5/ don't forget this baby
[19:27] <DarTar> so far we're not seeing a tremendous bump in the volume of feedback collected and that might be because the link is not as prominent as we expected
[19:27] * tommorris wishes Stupidfilter was better.
[19:27] <DarTar> tashir: you can sort the table by clicking on the header
[19:27] <fabriceflorin> Our hope is to have both AbuseFilter and SpamBlock implemented on the feedback page when it launches publicly.
[19:28] <Utar> devs, can it be so that after comments is handcoded, next showed will be next and not first, please?
[19:28] <tashir> cool!
[19:28] <Ironholds> Utar: I'll poke Aaron with that :)
[19:28] <DarTar> tashir: but yeah, filtering by any of the design specific fields is not a big deal
[19:28] <Ironholds> next item; the request for comment! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_Feedback_Tool/Version_5#Request_for_Comment. Has everyone seen or heard of this? I don't recall seeing some of you in the "history" ;p
[19:29] <Utar> Ironholds: becuase when I just don't want to do the first it keeps appearing as i complete any other
[19:29] <Ironholds> I'm not going to spend a lot of time discussing it, because lots of discussion is what an RfC is for, but to summarise: we're farming out advice on "who should be able to do what" to the community.
[19:29] <Utar> Ironholds: Aaron will love me
[19:29] <Ironholds> Utar: ahh, when you skip? I'll kick him in the shins or something
[19:29] <Ironholds> howief, we have funding to get me to the east coast for shin-kicking purposes, right?
[19:30] <Utar> Ironholds: but repair that saving bug first
[19:30] <howief> hahahahah
[19:30] <tashir> DarTar: surely adding hyperlinks is just a matter of adding <a href="http://en.wikipedia/org/wiki/____">____</a> to one line of code, I hope
[19:30] <howief> i'll check with erik :)
[19:30] <Ironholds> Utar: will do :P
[19:30] <DarTar> tashir: not really, that stream is generated via a jQuery plugin that reads a static TSV
[19:30] <Ironholds> for those of you who haven't participated in the RfC, we really, really want to know what you think about the issues
[19:30] <DarTar> so it'd need to be hacked to add links
[19:30] <Ironholds> link again, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_Feedback_Tool/Version_5#Request_for_Comment. Hope to see more of you there :)
[19:30] <DarTar> but I can look into that
[19:31] <Utar> Ironholds: or: go to the link you sended me and see yourself. do you see them done or undone? 65, 1165, 1320...
[19:31] * Doug_Weller_ (~Doug_Well@cpc9-mfld14-2-0-cust626.13-1.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:31] <Ironholds> Doug_Weller_: welcome back :)
[19:31] <Ironholds> Utar: I'll check in a tick :) Sorry, trying to do 12 things at once already
[19:31] <Doug_Weller> didn't leave, just set up laptop to irc as well
[19:31] <Utar> Ironholds: or: go to the link you sended me and see yourself. do you see them done or undone? 65, 1165, 1320...; but this can wait after session
[19:31] <Ironholds> ahhh
[19:31] <Ironholds> Utar: indeedy :)
[19:32] <tashir> Ironholds: I refuse to comment on that RFC because I see my feedback has already been incorporated XD
[19:32] <Ironholds> fabriceflorin, I believe you have shiny prototypes for everyone?
[19:32] <Ironholds> tashir: that'd be the ideal :P
[19:32] * DarTar handing Ironholds a cuppa
[19:32] <Utar> what about this: "I am the main author and I am just testing the tool out of curiosity. I believe the article is helpful."
[19:32] <fabriceflorin> Thanks, Ironholds. We're getting ready to develop the first basic version of the feedback page next week.
[19:32] * Ironholds thanks DarTar gracefully. Yum, earl grey.
[19:32] <fabriceflorin> Here is an updated prototype for a simple version of the feedback page for our Jan. 25 release (phase 1.4).
[19:32] <fabriceflorin> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Aftv5-prototype-01-13.pdf
[19:33] <fabriceflorin> It's an interactive PDF with rough wireframes created in Balsamiq Mockups .
[19:33] <fabriceflorin> This partial prototype is for discussion purposes and the graphics are intended to be rough.
[19:33] <Ironholds> (go to page 12 to look at the first examples of the feedback page, if you want to skip everything else)
[19:33] <fabriceflorin> Click on the 'Feedback page' shortcut at the bottom of the screen.
[19:33] <Ironholds> hahah. I note Bensin is an example username
[19:33] <tashir> I can't wait until the star ratings go away. I just expanded a stub to a B-class and it still has terrible ratings
[19:34] <fabriceflorin> Click on the red hot spots to see how key features might work.
[19:34] <fabriceflorin> Yes, I used Bensin
[19:34] <Ironholds> but no Utar? ;p
[19:34] <Utar> ironholds: can you also make sure to public these logs till Monday midday? you know, our meeting
[19:34] <tashir> I always kind of expected that the ratings would reset after some substantial improvements, but I can understand how that is very hard. AFT5 is much more operational
[19:34] <Ironholds> Utar: sorry?
[19:35] <fabriceflorin> I used Bensin's name to show our appreciation ... next time, we will put Utar ;o)
[19:35] <Ironholds> Utar: oh, the CZ meeting?
[19:35] <Utar> yeah
[19:35] <Utar> CS
[19:35] <Ironholds> CS, sorry. Headdesk ;p
[19:35] <fabriceflorin> To clarify: based on your recommendations, anyone can view the feedback page, and will be able to sort or filter its list.
[19:35] <Ironholds> Utar; so you want these logs released before monday, or after?
[19:36] <Utar> ironholds: before, to be able to present them
[19:36] <fabriceflorin> As you can tell in the prototype, we have simplified the sorting and filtering features for the first release of the feedback form.
[19:36] <Utar> but CZ too :D
[19:36] <Ironholds> Utar: of this IRC chat? Totally doable. I'll post them in an hour, email you a link :)
[19:36] * Chmee2 is running on the bus... utar, make notes for us! :)
[19:36] <fabriceflorin> In this prototype, we are also proposing two simple tools that anyone but blocked users can use to promote or flag feedback.
[19:36] <Utar> ironholds: and while you will be there you can go through that FES link....
[19:37] <Ironholds> Utar: indeed!
[19:37] <fabriceflorin> 'Mark as helpful' lets anyone tag good suggestions (except blocked users)
[19:37] <Utar> chmee2: I have people to do that
[19:37] <fabriceflorin> 'Flag as abuse' lets anyone tag inappropriate posts (except blocked users)
[19:37] <Chmee2> Utar: :) good for you. See you on Monday. Bey to everybody here.
[19:37] * Chmee2 (~opera@89-24-210-206.i4g.tmcz.cz) has left #wikimedia-office
[19:37] <fabriceflorin> The list can be quickly filtered to show only 'Helpful' or 'Flagged' posts.
[19:38] <fabriceflorin> I tried 'Flag for abuse' by itself, but it was too spooky; so I had to add 'Mark as helpful' to cheer things up;
[19:38] <fabriceflorin> this is a simple way to address community requests for this type of function, without extra engineering, as it works like Flag.
[19:38] <Ironholds> so, what does the "activity" button do?
[19:38] <howief> we need to give a lot more thought as to how the "mark as helpful" feature (or whatever we end up calling it) is actually going to work
[19:39] * SarahStierch (~SarahStie@wikipedia/SarahStierch) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:39] <howief> for example, is a feature that we intend for readers to use, or is this feature meant for our editors?
[19:39] <Utar> so we have people making feedback, handcoding feedback, feedbacking feedback.... what about someone to use it?
[19:39] * SarahStierch (~SarahStie@wikipedia/SarahStierch) Quit (Client Quit)
[19:39] <fabriceflorin> What do you guys think of these two primary reader tools? 'Mark as helpful' and 'Flag for abuse'?
[19:39] <fabriceflorin> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Aftv5-prototype-01-13.pdf
[19:40] <Narson> I'm assuming editors will put the feedback into practice...
[19:40] <Ironholds> Utar: as in, editors running through it?
[19:40] <fabriceflorin> (Click on the 'Feedback page' shortcut at the bottom of the screen to see the feedback page)
[19:40] <howief> Narson: i think that's probably right
[19:40] <howief> but at the same time
[19:40] <howief> readers may end up on this page as well
[19:40] <Utar> Ironholds: yeah
[19:41] <Utar> I have already checked one feedbacked page because in left window it showed wrecked cite template. Somebody repaired it in the meantime.
[19:41] <fabriceflorin> Our goal is to test this feedback page in a non-public way for a couple weeks after the barebones version launches on Jan. 25.
[19:41] <Narson> Though naturally I'm all in favour of making Ironholds put all the feedback into practice himself, but I fear it might need the wider editor community.
[19:41] <fabriceflorin> Also, note that reader tools are to the left of the page; rollbacker and oversight tools to the right (only seen if you have access)
[19:42] <fabriceflorin> • Click on shortcuts at bottom of the screen to see 'Rollbacker's view' and 'Oversighter's view'
[19:42] <Ironholds> Utar: We're going to be doing some very patchy qualitative analysis on that front in a bit. Do you have a few minutes after the meeting? I just thought of a way you could be awesomely helpful with it ;)
[19:42] <fabriceflorin> Note that 'Rollbackers' have the choice to just 'Hide this post' or 'Request Oversight'
[19:42] <fabriceflorin> And 'Oversighers' have the choice to 'Hide this post' or 'Delete/oversight' it permanently
[19:42] <tashir> bucket=1 is going to be great when it starts showing up on talkpages for everyone
[19:42] <Utar> Ironholds: I have full weekend for you :P
[19:42] <fabriceflorin> In the 'Rollbacker's view', click on 'Comments-only' drop-down menu to see more filters for rollbackers only
[19:42] <Ironholds> Utar: I'm flattered!
[19:43] <fabriceflorin> You can see that Rollbackers can filter the list to show only 'hidden' feedback, or feedback for which oversight has been requested.
[19:43] <fabriceflorin> Click on 'Comparison' at the bottom of the page to see side-by-side views for each user group.
[19:43] * SarahStierch (~SarahStie@wikipedia/SarahStierch) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:43] <Utar> poor sparow...
[19:44] * Andre_afk (~chatzilla@host097-229.kpn-gprs.nl) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:45] <Ironholds> Utar: yeah, I know :(
[19:45] <Ironholds> I've always wondered why we picked that as a test page
[19:45] <fabriceflorin> Access to these features generally match the proposed matrix on the feature requirements page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Article_feedback/Version_5/Feature_Requirements#Access_and_permissions
[19:45] <Ironholds> GorillaWarfare, Narson, Utar, Doug_Weller, everyone I'm failing to directly ping - opinions?
[19:46] <tashir> DarTar: can you add usernames to the stream? no biggie, but a lot of them are specific questions. I can wait for the full-fledged interface
[19:46] <DarTar> tashir, that's also a bit problematic,
[19:46] <fabriceflorin> So if you have comments about these proposed access rights, particularly who can hide feedback posts, please join our request for comments at this URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_Feedback_Tool/Version_5#Request_for_Comment
[19:46] <DarTar> we have an explanation of the feedback data policy that allows us to release user IDs (usernames for registered and IPs for anons)
[19:46] <Doug_Weller_> not yet
[19:47] <tashir> ok
[19:47] <Utar> it seems good
[19:47] <DarTar> but we're currently not replicating this data on the toolserver as we need to review some legal implications
[19:47] <fabriceflorin> Any thoughts about the interactive wireframe PDF so far? That's the basic set of features we would like to develop and release on Jan. 25. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Aftv5-prototype-01-13.pdf
[19:47] <tashir> yeah I saw some people are leaving their email in there for questions, and although I have no idea why, I know that's usually considered terrible
[19:48] <fabriceflorin> Links to the feedback page would not be public until phase 1.5 during quiet testing period.
[19:48] <fabriceflorin> Links would then appear on CTAs after you post feedback -- or on talk page (View feedback"), as shown on the interactive PDF.
[19:48] <DarTar> I am technically violating the terms under which these comments are licensed by not giving attribution, but we'll fix that soon
[19:48] <Doug_Weller_> can we have a note saying don't leave personal details, or isn't that worthwhile?
[19:48] <Utar> but names near feedback would be good as several times I found myself in need of details ("Merge this article with the other one" ~ Which one?), that way you can ask them
[19:49] <tashir> fabriceflorin: on some of those the feedback box is at the top of the article? I'd say the bottom is good and expected and working well as is
[19:49] <Utar> CTA? whi one?
[19:50] <DarTar> Utar, that raises major privacy issues until we have some mechanism for moderation/hiding feedback
[19:50] <fabriceflorin> If you have any comments about the PDF prototype after this IRC chat, please add them to our Talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_Feedback_Tool/Version_5
[19:50] <Utar> dartar: ok, just a suggestion, praise (YES, i found)
[19:50] <Utar> :D
[19:51] <Utar> fabriceflorin: oh, you can click in it, nice
[19:51] <fabriceflorin> Hi Tashir, the feedback form is normally shown at the bottom of the page. It only shows up at the top if people click on the 'Improve this page' button. At that time, UI guidelines are that it appear near the button you just clicked, with a grayed overlay behind it.
[19:51] <tashir> oh I see, okay
[19:52] <Ironholds> tashir: you seem sensible. Want to help with the hand-coding? :)
[19:52] <tashir> also, after reviewing the stream, I'm completely sold on bucket=1 (found? yes/no) and would be happy to see the stars and the four-option versions go away -- the feedback from found=0 is so much more useful than any of the other feedback streams all the others seem like a complete waste of time
[19:52] <Utar> fabriceflorin: why is Obama at talk page of some sparrow?
[19:52] <tashir> aww, thank you. Nope! :D
[19:52] <fabriceflorin> You can see how this works on some of the sample articles in this list: you will see a small 'Improve this page' button in the lower right hand corner of your browser window. Click on it to see the overlay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Article_Feedback_5_Additional_Articles
[19:52] <DarTar> tashir: there's a good chance option 3 will be dismissed
[19:52] <Ironholds> tashir: there's the possibility of swag? ;p
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[19:53] <DarTar> we're waiting for the results of the handcoding to get a qualitative angle on that question
[19:53] <tashir> yeah I'll sign up for the volunteer thing eventually
[19:53] <tashir> just not for a few days at least
[19:53] <DarTar> but so far option 3 (rate this article) is producing by far the smallest volume of feedback of all the 3 designs
[19:54] <fabriceflorin> Getting back to the interactive prototype, our goal is to give some clear requirements to our developers this weekend for phase 1.4 development, due to start on Tuesday morning, based on this PDF prototype, plus community and team feedback we get today.
[19:55] <fabriceflorin> So time is tight and we would appreciate your notes by end of day today, so I can finalize key requirements over the weekend. We have much to do next week and only four days to do it. Thanks for your understanding. ;o)
[19:55] <Narson> (I'm just going to make Ironholds buy me drinks)
[19:56] <Ironholds> tashir: sign up soon! The finishing point is fairly close :)
[19:56] <tashir> ok
[19:56] <fabriceflorin> Hi Utar, the talk page was just slapped together. Sorry for including Obama screenshot, it should be sparrow, you are correct.
[19:56] <Doug_Weller_> Tashir, hand coding doesn't take long
[19:56] <GorillaWarfare> Eep, I need to stop multitasking
[19:56] * GorillaWarfare reads back through
[19:56] <fabriceflorin> Next month, we will spend more time proposing integration strategies for the talk page. For now, we are focused on the feedback page.
[19:56] <Ironholds> GorillaWarfare: to summarise: fabriceflorin showed us some awesome screenshots, I said stupid stuff, DarTar got all mathematic-y
[19:57] <fabriceflorin> But what do you guys think of the idea of placing a 'View feedback' link on the talk page for early February, as a starting point?
[19:57] <Ironholds> GorillaWarfare: the awesome screenshots are at http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Aftv5-prototype-01-13.pdf, if you want to give a look :)
[19:57] <Ironholds> *it
[19:57] <fabriceflorin> This 'View feedback' link would go to the special feedback page for now. Eventually, we would integrate it more seamlessly in the talk page, but that wouldn't be until March.
[19:58] <Utar> fabriceflorin: let us do it
[19:58] * GorillaWarfare (~GorillaWa@wikipedia/GorillaWarfare) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
[19:58] <Narson> Is there a reason for Feedback not to end up as its own tab on the top of the page?
[19:58] <tashir> option 1 is clearly outperforming option 2, too. Option 2's feedback is less useful for all types, because it's almost always less specific or otherwise more vague
[19:59] <Utar> Ironholds: itr seems GW reallz liked those screens
[19:59] <Utar> Narson: it is a possibility
[19:59] <DarTar> tashir: it does in terms of volume, to answer the usefulness question we need to wrap up the hand coding analysis
[19:59] <Ironholds> Utar: hahaha
[19:59] <tashir> option 1 is like "what's his middle name" and option two is like "I can't use this to write my report"
[19:59] <Thehelpfulone> Ironholds: looking at that link, it's a nice interface - is that one in existence at the moment?
[20:00] <Ironholds> Narson: that's an interesting question
[20:00] <fabriceflorin> Tashir, good points. Note that we also want to check data from the hand-coding and usability studies before reaching a decision.
[20:00] <Thehelpfulone> and can admins delete feedback or revdelete it whilst waiting for an oversighter
[20:00] <Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: no, it's fabriceflorin's wonderful draft design :)
[20:00] <Thehelpfulone> also, is feedback picked up by the abuse filter?
[20:00] <howief> Narson: that's a good question
[20:00] <Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: it will be, and yeah, we've got a revdelete-like tool
[20:00] <Ironholds> admins will be able to do it, but we're also looking at maybe autoconfirmed users having the ability too
[20:00] <howief> i'd like to get norm's opinion on that one
[20:00] <fabriceflorin> One question I would like bring up is the concept of 'auto-hide', as practiced by Craigslist and other sites.
[20:01] <Ironholds> it's one of the things covered at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_Feedback_Tool/Version_5#Request_for_Comment, if you want to take a look :)
[20:01] <Utar> it is like adventure game...
[20:01] <Thehelpfulone> yep I'll have a look at that Ironholds
[20:01] * Andre_afk (~chatzilla@host097-229.kpn-gprs.nl) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[20:01] <howief> we need to make sure the tabs have some sense of coherence
[20:01] * heatherw_ (~hwalls@c-67-164-37-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: heatherw_)
[20:01] <Thehelpfulone> also, if a user leaves feedback - where does it show up? in their contributions? a special log? (Like we have the block log that shows who admins have blocked)
[20:01] <howief> i have to jet
[20:01] <howief> thanks everyone!
[20:02] <fabriceflorin> The basic idea is that if, let's say, 5 readers flag a feedback post as inappropriate, we would auto-hide it to reduce the amount of inappropriate posts on the feedback page.
[20:02] <Doug_Weller_> that could be gamed
[20:02] <Doug_Weller_> but probably a good idea
[20:02] <Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: so, that's an interesting question
[20:02] <Utar> fabriceflorin: sounds good
[20:03] * howief (~howiefung@216.38.130.166) Quit (Quit: howief)
[20:03] <Utar> fabriceflorin: will + destory -s ?
[20:03] <Ironholds> it'll definitely show up as *something*. What something is, we don't know yet :)
[20:03] <Ironholds> the moodbar guys have had it displaying in a public log, which may be where we go
[20:03] <Ironholds> or we could have them as edits, or as...? and so on
[20:03] <fabriceflorin> This is how Craigslist does it and it works well for them. If a feedback post has been unfairly flagged as abusive, a rollbacker can always unhide it. But the net result is that there would be less inappropriate comment.
[20:04] <Doug_Weller_> sounds like we shoujld use that
[20:04] <Thehelpfulone> perhaps a log would be better Ironholds to easily filter out feedback
[20:04] <Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: but if you have any suggestions, please please *please* post them on the talkpage. Around 20 percent of my job is patrolling that thing for interesting ideas :P
[20:04] <Thehelpfulone> like with the Special:Translate tool, that has a translation log
[20:04] <Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: good point!
[20:04] <Thehelpfulone> heh okay :)
[20:04] <Utar> fabriceflorin: yes, Kongregate is doing it the same way AFIK
[20:04] <tommorris> surely, just have a thing so that the more 'flags' it gets, the higher it goes on a 'most flagged feedback' thing. then an admin can look at it and either hide or dismiss the flags
[20:05] <tashir> option 2 type 2 is the best of the option 2 types, but on a per-feedback basis option 1 found=0 is clearly much better, it's obvious just browsing through them. I don't think you really need to put too much effort; just take a statistical sample and have a dozen people subjectively rate the quality of each
[20:05] <Thehelpfulone> tommorris: that sounds like a good idea
[20:05] <tashir> I don't mean to disparage the work you're putting in to hand coding, but it seems pretty clear just looking at the stream
[20:06] <Utar> will + and - flags be counted separately or destoy each other?
[20:06] <Ironholds> tashir: that's what we're doing :)
[20:06] <Ironholds> (getting a dozen people to rate the quality of each stream)
[20:06] <Ironholds> the hand-coding was because we need quantitative as well as qualitative
[20:06] <Utar> if it get two pluse flags and that minus one will it have +1 ?
[20:07] <Utar> tha*n*
[20:07] <tommorris> you don't need +1/-1, and you don't need to show that publicly
[20:08] <fabriceflorin> Utar: Great idea. Right now, there is no connection between 'Mark as helpful' and 'Flag for abuse(' + destory -s). Should there be ?
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[20:08] <Excirial> I think so
[20:08] <Utar> see Kongregate
[20:08] <Utar> it works so:
[20:08] <Excirial> A high-reviewed stream might easily rack 5 negatives, even if it has, say, 100 positives.
[20:08] <Utar> you plus or
[20:09] <fabriceflorin> Thanks Doug_Weller, I am glad you think that Craigslist's version of 'auto-hide' might be appropriate for this. What do others think?
[20:09] * mabdul|dog is now known as mabdul|busy
[20:09] <tommorris> personally, "Mark as helpful" would ideally be "Mark as productive" or what not.
[20:09] <Utar> you minus it and if you minus it asks if it should be flagges to hide
[20:09] <tommorris> the point is, most comments are going to be neither helpful nor abusive
[20:09] <tommorris> a small fraction of comments are going to be things the community might need to act upon - adding new content, editing etc.
[20:09] <Ironholds> tommorris: actually, no
[20:09] <tommorris> so, really, admins need to be able to find the abusive stuff and delete it
[20:10] <tommorris> and editors need to be able to find the productive stuff and do it
[20:10] <Utar> tommorris: so you will plus the most important ones. easy
[20:10] <Ironholds> the tests we've done say 60 percent are helpful-ish :)
[20:10] <fabriceflorin> Thanks, tommorrris good point.
[20:10] <tommorris> helpful in my mind is "can actually lead to a productive outcome"
[20:10] <Ironholds> tommorris: that's 40 percent
[20:10] <Ironholds> strike two! :P
[20:10] <tommorris> like editing or fixing an error
[20:11] <Utar> Ironholds: isn't it so low because of devs making tries of their new baby?
[20:11] <Ironholds> Utar: what do you mean?
[20:11] <tommorris> we don't need feedback turning into reddit where people are upranking/downranking stuff they agree or disagree with
[20:11] <tommorris> the only thing that's needed is to hide the junk and surface the useful stuff
[20:11] <Utar> Ironholds: not a few were "I am testing AFT tool"ish
[20:11] <Ironholds> Utar: that's mostly people like tommorris :P
[20:11] * DarTar (~DarTar@wikimedia/DarTar) Quit (Quit: DarTar)
[20:12] <Ironholds> and yes, the second round of data (the stuff you're hand-coding now) should be more useful on that front. It's not new and shiny and to be tested any more.
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[20:12] <Utar> Ironholds: but for that I need poked Aaron
[20:12] * PhancyPhysicist (~charles@cpe-107-9-220-27.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[20:12] <Ironholds> Utar: indeed! As soon as he shows up I'll give him a talking to.
[20:13] * PhancyPhysicist (~charles@cpe-107-9-220-27.neo.res.rr.com) has joined #wikimedia-office
[20:13] <Ironholds> he's a part-timer, unfortunately
[20:13] <Ironholds> so he's probably off doing his PhD or some other unimportant thing
[20:13] <Ironholds> :P
[20:13] <Utar> I will probably log in here during this weekend to try if you are in.
[20:13] <fabriceflorin> tommorris, I agree that having editors hide inappropriate feedback is a good primary solution, but it may take a while for that to happen. So we are looking for ways to let the community to a bit of pre-filtering, in addition to using automated spam filters. So we are not entirely dependent on editors to do all the hiding.
[20:14] <Ironholds> Utar: if I'm not around, I'm always accessible via email :)
[20:14] <Ironholds> Utar: mind if I PM you in a bit to discuss something for Monday?
[20:14] <Utar> another PhD? that's the fourth time he is using that excuse
[20:14] * tfinc (~tfinc@216.38.130.168) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[20:14] <Utar> Ironholds: roll it
[20:14] <Utar> I will onlz brring a cup of tea
[20:15] <Ironholds> Utar: awesome :)
[20:15] <Ironholds> Utar: haha
[20:15] <fabriceflorin> Also note that there is going to be A LOT of feedback pouring in all day long. Does a rollbacker really want to spend their days hiding feedback, instead of working on articles? Last I checked, Huffington employed over 30 full-time moderators to do this work ... We want the community to help do some of that pre-filtering.
[20:15] <Ironholds> and huffington is a far smaller site than us
[20:15] <Ironholds> and they suck more </bias>
[20:16] <Utar> never heard about them :D
[20:16] <fabriceflorin> Good point, Ironholds. That's why we're looking for solutions like 'Mark as helpful', 'Flag as abuse' and 'auto-hide', so the rollbackers don't get overloaded with work they might not want to do in the first place. That's how Craigslist solved it, and it's working for them.
[20:17] <Ironholds> so, does anyone else have any questions relating to this?
[20:17] <Ironholds> I'm happy to stay around for however long, but fabriceflorin has stuff to get to :)
[20:17] <Utar> fabriceflorin: zou cvan made it so that...
[20:17] <Utar> plus destroy minus and...
[20:18] <Ironholds> Utar: zou cvan?
[20:18] <Utar> if some comment is negative for long than our...
[20:18] <Utar> Canton Chinese
[20:18] <Ironholds> ahh
[20:18] <Utar> you can
[20:18] <Utar> ugly QWERTZ
[20:18] <Utar> it is auto-hided
[20:18] <Ironholds> Utar: gotcha :)
[20:18] <Utar> long than hour
[20:19] <Utar> I am writing phonetically again :D
[20:19] <Ironholds> so you mean that hitting "mark as helpful" could negate a "mark as abuse", and if someting is marked as abuse for too long, it's automatically hidden?
[20:19] <Utar> or if it goes, say to -10
[20:19] <fabriceflorin> Utar, thanks for your proposal that the positive tags offset the negative flags -- we will discuss this idea with the developers on Tuesday.
[20:19] <Ironholds> Utar: gotcha :)
[20:19] <Utar> or to -1 after an hour
[20:20] <Utar> fabriceflorin: it would be easier to disply it too
[20:20] <fabriceflorin> Yes, if it goes to -5 or -10, that would be the time to auto-hide it, good suggestion!
[20:21] <Utar> **my feedback was marked as helpful*
[20:21] <fabriceflorin> Thanks again for all your good contributions, Utar. You do a great job keeping us honest and recommending ingenious solutions we might not have thought of on our own ;o) That's the whole point of these chats, and we much appreciate it!
[20:21] <fabriceflorin> Utar: yes VERY HELPFUL!
[20:21] <Utar> as I said, guns loaded with questions
[20:22] <Utar> yeah, I appreciate this type of developing
[20:22] <Ironholds> Utar: thanks! :)
[20:22] <Ironholds> I'm really happy I get to do this kind of stuff
[20:23] <Ironholds> although I do occasionally go "I joined wikipedia to categorise articles and NOW THEY'RE PAYING ME TO TALK TO PEOPLE WHAT THE HELL" and freak out
[20:23] <fabriceflorin> Yes, it's totally the way to go, like user-centered design. Except in this case, we are all designing together!
[20:23] <Narson> He really is. Ironholds is weird.
[20:23] <Ironholds> so, I think fabriceflorin has to go. We'll all be back here next friday; same time, same channel :)
[20:23] <fabriceflorin> OK, guys, thanks as always for all your help. Speak to you again next Friday!
[20:23] <tommorris> fabriceflorin: community design
[20:24] <Utar> narson: he is holding iron? who else would do that?
[20:24] <Ironholds> Narson: sorry?
[20:24] <tommorris> Ironholds: do we get our access codes for hand-coding
[20:24] <Doug_Weller_> you hold iron
[20:24] <fabriceflorin> Yes, tommorris, 'community design' is a great way to describe it.;o)
[20:24] <Ironholds> tommorris: yes, when I get some :)
[20:24] <Narson> Ironholds: That you really do enjoy this kind of stuff ;)
[20:24] <Ironholds> at the moment our researcher hasn't scraped all the stuff together
[20:24] <fabriceflorin> OK, guys. Time for lunch. Bye for now, and speak with you next week!
[20:24] <Narson> Similar to my weird love of a proper meeting with minutes and an agenda.
[20:24] <Ironholds> it's your fault for being too awesome. He prepared 700 pieces of feedback, and you did all of them ;p
[20:25] <Ironholds> fabriceflorin: take care!
[20:25] <Doug_Weller_> bye
[20:25] <Utar> ff, time for bed, rather
[20:25] <fabriceflorin> Over and out!
[20:25] * Doug_Weller_ (~Doug_Well@cpc9-mfld14-2-0-cust626.13-1.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Quit: I'm not here right now.)
[20:25] <Ironholds> guys, I'll be hanging around if anyone wants to talk more
[20:25] * PhancyPhysicist (~charles@cpe-107-9-220-27.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[20:25] <Ironholds> Utar, you I need to speak to :)
[20:25] <Utar> sunny side up for me, please
[20:25] <Utar> Ironholds: I didn't got pm yet. Slow server?
[20:25] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
[20:25] * fabriceflorin (~fabricefl@c-98-210-230-160.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: fabriceflorin)
[20:25] <Ironholds> Utar: I haven't started it yet ;p
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[20:27] <Ironholds> anyone else got any questions?
[20:28] <Utar> not for your ears
[20:28] <Narson> Nope. Thank you for your time, it looks very interesting!
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Session Close: Fri Jan 13 20:32:55 2012