IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-01-20
[18:48] * Jamietw (~Jamietw@wikimedia/Jamietw) has joined #wikimedia-office
[18:48] <Ironholds> Jamietw, hey there :) I noticed you participated in the RfC; thanks for your comments
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[18:53] <Jamietw> Ironholds: No problem.
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[18:55] <Bensin> Ironholds: Hey :-)
[18:56] * Titoxd_ (~Titoxd@wikipedia/Titoxd) has joined #wikimedia-office
[18:57] <Bensin> No taxi today, eh? Saw you in here well over one hour ago :-D
[18:57] * Barras (~Barras@wikimedia/barras) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[18:57] <Ironholds> Bensin: heh!
[18:57] <Ironholds> oh god, that was a journey from hell
[18:57] * brion_ (~brion@wikipedia/pdpc.professional.brion) has joined #wikimedia-office
[18:57] <Ironholds> 4 trains and a taxi just to get about in the same city I live in
[18:57] <Bensin> Beter that than the reverse ride TO hell at least...
[18:57] <Ironholds> that's true!
[19:00] * fabriceflorin (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:00] <Bensin> Hey fabriceflorin!
[19:00] * Jan_eissfeldt is now known as Jan_telco
[19:00] <fabriceflorin> Hey Bensin, good to see you again!
[19:00] <Bensin> Same to you!
[19:01] * Beria_Lima is now known as Beria
[19:01] <fabriceflorin> Welcome to our post-blackout office hours!
[19:01] * Ironholds changes topic to 'IRC office hours for the Article Feedback Tool -- http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours | This channel is publicly logged during meetings.'
[19:01] <Ironholds> it's basically the same as the pre-blackout one, but we'll be randomly suing you to keep things interesting
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[19:01] <Bensin> LOL!
[19:02] <Ironholds> Bensin: copyvio! *slaps handcuffs on*
[19:02] <Ironholds> all emotions relating to humour are owned by Disney. Well known fact.
[19:02] <Bensin> Crap! Busted!
[19:02] <fabriceflorin> There are very few AFT team members here today, most folks are either out of office, traveling or recuperating from a very busy week. ;o)
[19:04] <Ironholds> well, travelling
[19:04] <Ironholds> it doesn't count if you're travelling at high speed, down a mountain, on skis
[19:05] <fabriceflorin> Bensin, your name has been immortalized in some of our recent mockups for the feedback page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Article_feedback/Version_5/Feature_Requirements#Feedback_page
[19:05] <Ironholds> (which I found pretty funny. I note my name isn't in there)
[19:05] <Bensin> fabriceflorin: I know! I noticed that :-)
[19:05] <fabriceflorin> Hehe. I was working late at night, wondering what a good user name would be, and your name popped up first.
[19:05] <Ironholds> Bensin: evidently you speak latin now!
[19:05] <Ironholds> kudos. Or rather, bene
[19:06] <Bensin> Very bene!
[19:06] <fabriceflorin> Will have to rotate in Ironholds, Utar and other members of our work groups in the next iterations ;o)
[19:06] <Ironholds> hah!
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[19:07] <Bensin> Ironholds: Oh I almost forgot that I'm totally bummed with you... You archived a page where I had recently posted an issue that was not ansered ;-) https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_Feedback_Tool/Version_5/Archive#Placement_of_feedback_link
[19:08] <Ironholds> Bensin: aw, sorry! I was told to!
[19:08] <Ironholds> what was the issue?
[19:09] <Bensin> The placement of the feedback link...
[19:09] <Ironholds> Bensin: ahh yes! Moving it to the left?
[19:10] <Bensin> No, it's regarding the placement of the feedback _link_ (Best see my post: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_Feedback_Tool/Version_5/Archive#Placement_of_feedback_link)
[19:11] <Ironholds> Bensin: I genuinely don't think I saw that, which is a pity; it's hella-interesting
[19:11] <Ironholds> (I need to pay closer attention, evidently!)
[19:11] <Ironholds> I think fabrice is typing something out as a response :)
[19:12] <Bensin> Ironholds: Yeah, I kinda figured you missed it. :-)
[19:12] <Bensin> (And I was too lazy to figure out the guideline for moving something back)
[19:12] <fabriceflorin> Hi Bensin, thanks for your thoughts about the feedback link. In a couple weeks, we will test option A versus option D versus no link at all. We plan to analyze a variety of factors, including overall impressions, number of feedback posts, number of edits, survival of edits, etc.
[19:14] <fabriceflorin> So far, the Option D doubled the number of feedback posts. But most people have simply not noticed them, and we haven't received any seriously negative feedback about it, to my knowledge. So I doubt that it hurts readership in any significant way.
[19:14] <Bensin> fabriceflorin: And like i wrote; I'm sure any and all of the proposed links will generate lots and lots of feedback, but it puts an unreasonable weight on feedback over edits. So please take this into consideration.
[19:15] <Ironholds> Bensin: we are :)
[19:15] <Bensin> Yuck! I hate floating/docked things you cant close. (sorry)
[19:15] <Ironholds> we'll be doing some analysis which looks at whether articles with AFT5 on them get less edits
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[19:15] <Ironholds> (which personally, I'll be really interested to see)
[19:15] <fabriceflorin> Yes, we will. And we will carefully check the data and the various options, as we do with everything. In any case, your insights are much appreciated.
[19:15] <Ironholds> Bensin: I do too, actually, but this is the least annoying docked thing I've yet to see :)
[19:16] <Bensin> fabriceflorin: Any chance you can add an "x" to it and also count how many choose to rid themselves of it? That would be really interesting to measure as well...
[19:16] <fabriceflorin> Yes! Great minds think alike. Oliver just reminded me that we plan to have a dismiss 'x' button on Option D, if this becomes the recommended option.
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[19:18] <fabriceflorin> Good point. We will try to fit it in for the test.
[19:18] <Bensin> Swell :-)
[19:19] <Ironholds> Jamietw, you got any questions or ideas?
[19:19] <Ironholds> half our people on this are off having fun (or at research conferences), so we have some free time to chat :)
[19:19] <Ironholds> actually, Dario probably classes a research conference as "fun"
[19:19] <fabriceflorin> I also think that we could sometimes say 'Edit this page' in place of feedback. So this is just a touchpoint for engaging readers to contribute. It may not always be for feedback.
[19:19] <WilliamH_UK> I like that idea
[19:20] <fabriceflorin> This is my first week as product manager for new editor engagement at Wikimedia. So expect that in coming months, we will be looking for other ways to encourage readers to contribute. So your suggestions are very timely in that respect.
[19:20] <Jamietw> Ironholds: How long is it before we start trailing the feedback page?
[19:20] <Ironholds> Jamietw: trialing? good question
[19:21] <Bensin> fabriceflorin: Does that position also include editor retention?
[19:21] <Jamietw> Ironholds: So is it quite a way off still?
[19:21] <Ironholds> Jamietw: no, very, very soon :)
[19:21] <fabriceflorin> We plan to deploy a first non-public version of the feedback page, for testing purposes. That's if all goes well.
[19:22] <fabriceflorin> This would be the basic version described on this page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Article_feedback/Version_5/Feature_Requirements#Feedback_page
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[19:23] <Jamietw> The RfC is closing tonight?
[19:24] <Ironholds> Jamietw: it is :)
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[19:24] <Jamietw> It seems to be rather mixed so far.
[19:25] <Ironholds> Jamietw: yeah. We're going to get an uninvolved admin to close it
[19:25] <Ironholds> (it's not much use having an RfC if the Foundation summarise, right?)
[19:26] <Ironholds> and then we'll look at whatever the recommendation is and see if and how we can work it i
[19:26] <Ironholds> *n
[19:26] <fabriceflorin> Hi Bensin, my current focus is more on new editor retention than experienced editor retention, but many of the features we will implement will help both groups. However, I requested that we drop the 'new' from my title, because I think I need to serve all editors, no matter where they are in their lifecycle.
[19:27] <Jamietw> Ok, that's good. Is there any technical way of rollback hiding but only roll backers being able to I hide posts they hid themselves and then admins can unhide anyone's?
[19:27] <Ironholds> for example, the new Special:NewPages interface :)
[19:27] <Ironholds> Jamietw: that would be awkward. So, it's to do with having equal standards
[19:27] <log> Ooh, office hours.
[19:28] <Jamietw> Ok
[19:28] <Ironholds> basically if the ability to do X is for group 1, group 1 should also be able to un-do X
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[19:28] <Bensin> fabriceflorin: I was referring to new editor retention. (I should have specified that) Cool! I have an idea about new editor retention. I can post it on your talk page later.
[19:29] <Ironholds> Bensin: awesome! Your ideas are generally great :)
[19:29] <Ironholds> (hence the immortalisation on WP:AFT5)
[19:29] <Ironholds> I'm still disappointed you didn't want a t-shirt or something ;p
[19:29] <fabriceflorin> Thanks, Bensin. Would love to hear your thoughts. You can even give us a preview now, since it's just us chickens.
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[19:31] * Jan_telco is now known as Jan_eissfeldt
[19:31] <fabriceflorin> Otherwise, I'll just head out, since we still have a lot of development work to do today.
[19:31] <Bensin> fabriceflorin: Hang on, I'm typing :-)
[19:32] <Bensin> Ok. I'll ramble: When I made my first edit on the swedish wikipedia I was almost immediately encouraged and I suspect that was one of the reasons I continued. Nowdays I often see anonymous users making just one or two contributions without getting feedback.
[19:33] <fabriceflorin> Yes, that makes great sense to me. So we would send you a thank you email right away? Or drop some cookies on your talk page? Or both?
[19:34] <fabriceflorin> Someone dropped some cookies on my talk page on Christmas Day and it made me feel great. (Considering that in previous years, my talk page was deleted three times, I had a really bad experience with Wikipedia. So this was night and day for me.)
[19:35] <Bensin> fabriceflorin: I'm still thinking about this. There are several possible solutions. But I think fast positive feedback would work wonders.
[19:36] <fabriceflorin> Perhaps an even better thing to do would be to have another editor give you personal praise, so it's not just an automated message.
[19:37] <fabriceflorin> Yes, I agree that fast positive feedback is an essential component of making people feel more comfortable, as long as they find this feedback to be genuine.
[19:37] <Bensin> If there was a list of anonymous users whose talk pages are empty that would probably make the Welcome committee's task a lot easier. But you should definitely involve them in this process.
[19:37] <DarkoNeko> zzz =_=
[19:37] <Ironholds> well, Dr Kill (who has an AWESOME NAME) did some research on this stuff
[19:37] * DarkoNeko (~udontcare@wikipedia/darkoneko) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[19:38] <Ironholds> basically automatic messages drive people away more than isolation does ;p
[19:38] <Bensin> fabriceflorin: Yes! It should preferably be a personalized message!
[19:38] <Ironholds> it needs to be personalised, and I'm not sure how we'd fit that in
[19:38] <Bensin> We all agree then! :-)
[19:38] * WilliamH_UK nods
[19:39] <Ironholds> maybe we should have something like http://www.wikihow.com/Special:CommunityDashboard
[19:39] <Ironholds> where one backlog is "being nice to scared newbies" ;p
[19:39] <tommorris> WikiHow's community dashboard is awesome
[19:39] <Bensin> tommorris: I like it too!
[19:40] <tommorris> it wouldn't quite fit for Wikipedia, but something like it would be brilliant
[19:40] <WilliamH_UK> definitely
[19:40] <fabriceflorin> Good point, Bensin. I'm just now getting started on a product roadmap for the next 3 years, which includes notifications like these, as well orientations for new users, better messaging, better global profile, user reputation, easier page creation, better page patrol, sharing, and yes, good feedback tools. You can tell all this is going to keep us very busy. ;o)
[19:40] <Bensin> Ironholds: It could perhaps be something as simple as an extra link on the users contributions list that says "praise this user for this edit" that when clicked opens the talk page with the form already filled in with "Thank you for you contribution to the article so and so" and let the editor commending add to that message.
[19:41] <Ironholds> Bensin: that would be cool. Maybe we could look at that for the new special:newpages interface
[19:41] <Ironholds> we'll see :)
[19:42] <fabriceflorin> OIiver: that WikiHow dashboard is REALLY COOL, thanks for sharing. Inspirational.
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[19:42] <Bensin> fabriceflorin: ... or we could work out something even better where we flick through diffs from anon users with empty talk pages and get to choose "commend and welcome", "warn" or do nothing.
[19:43] <fabriceflorin> Bensin, your idea of an extra link on the contributions list makes good sense to me as well.
[19:43] <tommorris> fabriceflorin: WikiHow's community management is fantastic. I wrote a featured article for them, and shortly after they sent me a USB stick and every year I now get a Christmas card
[19:44] <WilliamH_UK> that's more than my bank promised me they'd sen dme
[19:44] <tommorris> they also have a "User kudos" page - http://www.wikihow.com/User_kudos:Tom-Morris
[19:44] <WilliamH_UK> User kudos eh
[19:44] <WilliamH_UK> now that's an interesting namespace
[19:44] <WilliamH_UK> ;)
[19:45] <tommorris> my WikiHow FA: http://www.wikihow.com/Write-a-Philosophy-Paper
[19:45] <tommorris> as Fluffernutter points out, I'm such a wikislut.
[19:46] <fabriceflorin> Thanks, TomMorris, great links. I will read them offline and start integrating all this in my research for the editor engagement plan.
[19:46] <Nemo_bis> they gave a talk at Wikimania some time ago
[19:46] <tommorris> fabriceflorin: you should probably talk to Krystal at WikiHow - I've got her email if you want, she's basically their community management/engagement person
[19:47] <tommorris> krystle [at] wikhow [dot] com
[19:47] <fabriceflorin> Once we have a skeleton for the editor engagement roadmap, we will schedule some IRC chats like these to focus on specific areas of improvement. Stay tuned.
[19:49] <fabriceflorin> Thanks, Tom, much appreciated. Ironholds and I will reach out to Krystle. Great idea!
[19:49] <Bensin> Ironholds: I also have a sort of meta-question regaring this project... Are you gonna write some sort of debrief statement for this project?
[19:49] <Ironholds> Bensin: as in, AFT5?
[19:49] <Ironholds> better!
[19:49] <Bensin> Ironholds: right!
[19:49] <Ironholds> I'm hoping to interview every participant I can get my hands on about what went wrong, what went well, what we can do better in the future :)
[19:50] <Ironholds> because this is a really awesome way to build software, and I'd love to do more of it. But I also want to ensure I'm doing it the best way I can :)
[19:50] <Bensin> Cool! One thing we could have done better is to include links to screenshots and stuff to read in advance. That way we could have come better prepared and with better suggestions.
[19:51] <Ironholds> Bensin: in advance of IRC sessions, or...?
[19:51] <fabriceflorin> So this was a really good discussion, and I am glad that it went beyond the article feedback tool. That said, launching AFT5 will remain my primary focus in coming weeks, so if any of you can help us get it out the door, your help is much appreciated. We still need some more hand-coding to evaluate the next batch of feedback, and we will need user testing of the feedback page when it launches next week (it will be a
[19:51] <fabriceflorin> secret URL at first, but would love to discuss it with you next Friday, if you are interested).
[19:51] <Bensin> Ironholds: Right! We should have included those links in the invitations.
[19:52] <Ironholds> Bensin: gotcha :). Save up your ideas, give them to me when we speak properly in a few weeks! Otherwise I'll forget :P
[19:52] <fabriceflorin> For now, I am going to take my leave, because I still have some urgent development tasks to handle today. But really appreciate all your good suggestions.
[19:53] <Bensin> Ironholds: Aw crap! I was just to commend you for taking notes and leave the brainstorming to the community. I'll have to rethink that ;-)
[19:53] <Ironholds> Bensin: hah!
[19:54] <fabriceflorin> Bye you guys! See you next week ...
[19:54] <WilliamH_UK> cheerio
[19:54] <Bensin> Bye!
[19:54] <Bensin> Ironholds: But seriously, as exotic as it sounds in a project like ours, having someone as a bridge between the community and the WMF has worked surprisingly well.
[19:54] * StevenW (~swalling@wikimedia/steven-walling) Quit
[19:55] <Ironholds> Bensin: thank you :)
[19:55] <fabriceflorin> Over and out for now.
[19:55] <Ironholds> I was really unsure coming into this job
[19:55] <Ironholds> like, I was thinking developers would hate me for messing with their plans, and editors would hate me for being part of The Enemy
[19:56] <Bensin> I would have been too. The role itself is sort of counter intuitive.
[19:56] <Ironholds> but I'm glad it's working well for everyone :). I've yet to be sent pipe bombs or whatnot in the post
[19:56] <Bensin> Heh
[19:56] <WilliamH_UK> Ironholds I guess it's that ol' shoot the messenger thing
[19:56] <Ironholds> yeah, you'd think; it's necessary, though. I mean, we speak completely different languages.
[19:56] <Ironholds> Bensin: did I tell you about the delete and oversight thing?
[19:56] <Ironholds> WilliamH_UK: possibly. Plus, people just don't like the WMF ;p
[19:56] <Bensin> Ironholds: I don't think so. Please do!
[19:57] <Bensin> Ironholds: That's because they acted like asses in this matter.
[19:57] <Ironholds> oh good god they did
[19:57] <Ironholds> Bensin: so, we were developing the hide and oversight features for AFT5
[19:57] <Bensin> (hope that goes on the record!)
[19:57] <WilliamH_UK> yes please do share
[19:57] <WilliamH_UK> en.wiki oversighter here
[19:57] <Ironholds> and the developers were calling them hide and delete
[19:57] <WilliamH_UK> ah yes
[19:57] <Ironholds> and so we had developers telling editors that admins wouldn't be allowed to delete things :P
[19:58] <Ironholds> cue massive confusion on all sides
[19:58] <Ironholds> so we do actually have our own language. I guess I'm the sort of google translate of the wiki ;p
[19:59] <Ironholds> anyway, on that note I should shoot off. I have had rather a long week ;p
[19:59] <Ironholds> Bensin, WilliamH_UK, everyone else, take care :). Speak to you Monday!
Session Close: Fri Jan 20 19:59:56 2012