Language committee/Archives/2007-05

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For a summary of discussions, see the archives index.

Spanned discussions[edit]

The following discussions span multiple months and are archived in the first applicable archive:

New members[edit]

Shanel[edit]

Shanel was inducted into the subcommittee per Pathoschild's suggestion.

  1. Jon Harald Søby
    06 May 2007 19:09

    With Pathoschild's departure, we need some new blood here. He suggested, amongst others, Shanel, and she wants to join, so I suggest we let her in.

    She also suggested (through Pathoschild) three other people. I suggest we discuss them when Shanel is in. I hope it's ok for everyone?

  2. Michal Zlatkovský (Timichal)
    06 May 2007 19:12

    Okay with me, we definitely need someone new :-)

  3. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    06 May 2007 19:13

    Welcome :-)

  4. Jon Harald Søby
    13 May 2007 18:10

    I welcome Shanel to the Language Committee! I sent a mail about adding here after Pathoschild's (no COF there, no) suggestion earlier, and there was no opposition, so here she is. According to Pathoschild, Shanel had some other suggestions on other people we should add as well, perhaps you'd like to write something about that yourself, Shanel?

    Anyways, welcome.

  5. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    13 May 2007 19:01

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  6. Shanel Kalicharan
    13 May 2007 19:02

    Thank you for the welcome, Jon, and hello everyone. :)

    The three people I suggested to Pathoschild were britty, Arria Belli, and Tangotango.

    Britty, as you all know, is a member of the Translation Subcommittee, and thus has experience dealing with various languages. While translation and dealing with requests for new language projects are two different things, I think her knowledge of various language communities and of effective communication would be useful.

    The next person, Arria Belli, is multilingual, has an interest in languages, and is active in translation. She has already indicated (after some prodding ;) ) that she is interested, so I don't see any reason why she should not be a member as well.

    I had suggested Tangotango because he is more technically inclined, but it appears he will be unavailable for some time. Instead, I'd like to suggest one or two other people from the Indian Wikimedian community. The reason I pick this community is because I had noticed a long time ago that all members of the Language Subcommittee speak Germanic, Slavic, and/or Romance languages. While most new language requests do come from these languages, I feel it would be helpful to have input from a member an underrepresented community, such as the Indian community.

    Two people that I can think of are en:User:Rama's Arrow and en:User:Aksi great. I shall poke them to see if they're interested.

  7. Shanel Kalicharan
    13 May 2007 20:05

    I will also be taking over archiving, as soon as I finish learning how. :)

Other candidates[edit]

The subcommittee discusses several possible new members.

  1. Shanel Kalicharan
    25 May 2007 14:28

    Hello all,

    As you might know, one of the users I recommended to Pathoschild when he resigned was Tangotango. At the time he was away, but now he has come back. I've asked him, and he would be interested in joining the subcommittee. Any objections?

  2. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    25 May 2007 14:38

    User of what, and what is his native language? I wouldn’t want this Committee to become dominated by big language native speakers, to say it straight. There is no big language to get in anymore, and people who are born in big languages simply do not understand what being minority means. I do not know him in person, so I’m asking.

  3. Shanel Kalicharan
    25 May 2007 15:30

    Hey Berto.

    Tangotango is active on en-wiki, simple-wiki, and occasionally edits ja-wiki. In his own words, he edits Meta "mostly for my own purposes (like coordinating translations for my tools), and for [[Small Wiki Monitoring Team <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Wiki_Monitoring_Team>]] stuff :P." He is a native speaker of English and Japanese. I too would not like to see this committee dominated by speakers of big languages, which is why I suggested multilingual people and speakers of languages not represented by any committee member. I hope to be bothering you again in the future about other possible members. :)

  4. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    25 May 2007 15:35

    Japanese is okay for me. It’s a non-mainstream mindset, and variety is exactly what we need. :-)

  5. Shanel Kalicharan
    26 May 2007 16:12

    Hello all,

    Well, I have found another person to bother you about. :D

    I've asked him to prepare a short bio on himself, so here it is:

    Name: Akash Shah
    Nationality: Indian
    Age: 20
    Languages: English, Gujarati, Hindi
    User name: aksi_great (I have this user-name in almost all the major wikipedias, meta, commons and enwiktionary)

    I primarily edit the English Wikipeda as English is the language I am most comfortable with. I have been editing the English Wikipedia since November 2005 and am an administrator since October 2006. Lately I have also started looking at the Gujarati Wikipedia (guwiki) and I plan to spend more time there if possible.

    I am pursuing my under-graduation in Computer Science. I have interest in almost everything related to the Indian subcontinent (which forms the bulk of my edits an enwiki), but I also read a lot of articles related to computers, history and the world of J. R. R. Tolkien.

    Seeing as we have no members who speak Indian languages, I feel he would be a valuable addition to the subcommittee.

  6. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    27 May 2007 21:04

    Hoi!

    Welcome to Akash Shah from me :-) Shanel, I’ll give you the biggest kiss ever if you can find us a native African speaker. Africa is usually the least connected area in the internet, wmf needs all the insight it can get from natives if we want to be able to enter Africa with at least some minimal chances of success.

  7. Shanel Kalicharan
    27 May 2007 22:01
    • blushes*

    I shall try my best. :D

  8. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    30 May 2007 17:34

    Just read it:

    > Hi:
    > How can we produce a localized interface for a new project?
    > Thanks.

    Do we have a standard localize how-to published anywhere?

  9. Arria Belli (Maria Fanucchi)
    01 June 2007 13:33

    After a bit of poking around in frwiki, I have found a kiswahili speaker (sw-2) whose English level is en-2: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilisateur:Muganga_guillaume He has been active for about a year and a half: http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&dir=prev&target=Muganga+guillaume
    I don't think this is enough to be in the LangCom, though. I will search a bit more now and see what other African-language speakers I can find.

  10. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    01 June 2007 13:57

    Thanks! :-)

  11. Arria Belli (Maria Fanucchi)
    01 June 2007 14:18

    I've been told a regular editor speaks an African language, I don't know how well, so I'll see what I can do when he reconnects to IRC. My first pick, Inisheer, an admin on fr:wp and fr:wikibooks, is too busy with work to really concentrate on another project (she will be in Tanzania for at least 6 months).
    Looking at the list of LangCom members, I see that we could use a speaker of Asian languages (excluding the Indian subcontinent, as Shanel has already found us one - thanks, Shanel!). I know several Japanese speakers (ja-2 or -3, I believe) on frwiki who also speak English very well, and at least one Korean speaker. I'll see what I can do. :-)

  12. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    01 June 2007 18:22

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  13. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    01 June 2007 19:30

    Hoi!

    It makes sense :-)

  14. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    01 June 2007 19:32

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  15. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    01 June 2007 20:32

    Lol sorry :-) we have 39 celsius and hundreds of lightings for the constant evening storms, I have trouble in concentrating :-) I meant Osborn or other equivalent people.

Maria[edit]

Arria Belli (Maria Fanucchi) introduces herself and is welcomed into the subcommittee.

  1. Maria Fanucchi (Arria Belli)
    19 May 2007 17:05
    • taptap* Is this thing on?

    Bonjour. ^^

    My name you already know (if this email got through to you all, anyway). My username is Arria Belli, which I chose after a username change (the previous one having been Marialadouce):
    http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Arria_Belli
    http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilisateur:Arria_Belli (my most active account)

    It comes from this story: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arria or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arria
    I chose this username because it reflects my personality better than sacchariney Marialadouce.

    I was born in Buenos Aires in 1983, but moved constantly between it and New York due to my father's job. My first language is technically Spanish, but in practice I think, dream, hurt and love in three languages: English (the one I am most proficient in, having spent most of my school years in NY), Spanish and French, which I have studied for ten or eleven years now.

    I am also severely hearing-impaired. Profoundly deaf in my left ear, I have about 30% hearing left in my right ear. I can, however, speak normally and hear about 85-90% as well as a non-hearing-impaired person thanks to that wonderful invention, the hearing aid. I lost my hearing at around 3 years old; why, the doctors do not know.

    My work on Wikimedia projects is mostly limited to translations, the vast majority into French. I don't really know why or how I got sucked into fr:wp rather than en:wp (es:wp never really interested me); I just did. I am a member of the ArbCom at fr:wp.

    Right now I am in Barcelona, but I will be in Paris on Friday for a layover of several days before I return to Kourou, French Guiana, where I live with a Frenchman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kourou and http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kourou

    OK, I think I wrote too much. You may now flog me for wasting bandwidth. ^^

  2. Shanel Kalicharan
    19 May 2007 17:12

    Welcome Maria! I won't flog you for wasting bandwidth - for now. :P

  3. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    19 May 2007 17:29

    Hoi!

    Welcome to you personally and to Barslon-a in general, as we call our catalan cousins :-)

  4. Jon Harald Søby
    21 May 2007 08:38

    Welcome aboard! I look forward to working with you, and believe you will be a great resource to us! =)

    (PS! You should catch up on the ASL Wikipedia thread in the archives, it might be of interest to you.)

  5. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    21 May 2007 13:18

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  6. Arria Belli (Maria Fanucchi)
    21 May 2007 14:47

    Thank you for the warm welcome. ^^
    I have taken a look at the ASL Wikipedia section of the request page. I may write about it a little later today.

Akash & Tangotango[edit]

Aksi_great (Akash Shah) and Tangotango join the subcommittee.

  1. Aksi_great (Akash Shah)
    10 June 2007 14:09

    Hello all. I am Akash (username: aksi_great). I am a new member of the langcom. I am a bit unsure as to what exactly I will be doing but I hope I will figure it out soon enough. I look forward to working with everyone else on this committee.

  2. Shanel Kalicharan
    10 June 2007 15:56

    Welcome Akash. I look forward to working with you too. Reading the mailing list archives might be a good way to get an idea of what we've been doing over the last three months or so. :)

  3. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    10 June 2007 17:30

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  4. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    10 June 2007 17:40

    Welcome :-) Don’t worry about being unsure. It will last forever as it’s happening with all of us :-)

  5. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    10 June 2007 17:40

    Welcome :-) Don’t worry about being unsure. It will last forever as it’s happening with all of us :-)

  6. Shanel Kalicharan
    10 June 2007 22:29
    • throws a ball at Tangie*
  7. Arria Belli (Maria Fanucchi)
    10 June 2007 22:40

    Welcome, Akash and Tangotango! I am also a new member of the LangCom, though I joined a few weeks ago. Don't hesitate to ask questions of the other veteran members; they're very nice.
    I may be less active for a while due to frwiki's wikicontest (where we try to make an FA from a stub in a month), but I'll keep up with the new requests, if not actually talk about them.

  8. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    11 June 2007 19:44

    Welcome :)

Wikiversity Italian[edit]

The second request for an Italian Wikiversity was approved and created.

  1. Michal Zlatkovský (Timichal)
    10 May 2007 18:15

    Hello,

    I propose the approval of the Italian Wikiversity [1]. There is a number of people interested in the project, and the project's future content is now hosted on it.wikibooks. I think direct approval would be suitable, as the interface is already translated and a test project is not required.

    As usual, I will implement the decision if there's no opposition or request for a delay in 24 hours.

    [1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikiversity_Italian_2

  2. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    10 May 2007 18:20

    Ok 4 me :)

  3. Jon Harald Søby
    10 May 2007 20:39

    Yup, fine by me too.

Wiktionary Newspeak[edit]

The request for a Newspeak Wiktionary was rejected.

  1. Michal Zlatkovský (Timichal)
    10 May 2007 19:14

    Hello, I propose the rejection of Wiktionary Newspeak[1]. Newspeak is a fictional language and it does not have any real vocabulary or grammar. In addition, Newspeak is probably copyrighted by George Orwell's heirs, as the language first appeared in his book, 1984.

    [1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wiktionary_Newspeak

  2. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    10 May 2007 19:17

    Out :)

  3. Jon Harald Søby
    10 May 2007 20:41

    Hmm, I thought I rogue rejected this one already. Nuke it, burn the rests and bury it on a planet far, far away. ;-)

  4. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    10 May 2007 20:44

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

Wikibooks Javanese & Wikipedia Karelian[edit]

The second request for a Javanese Wikibooks was conditionally approved, and no decision was reached on the second request for Karelian Wikipedia.

  1. Shanel Kalicharan
    14 May 2007 23:55

    Hello all,

    In an effort to be useful, I am going to propose the following conditional approvals.

    ===Wikibooks Javanese===
    I propose the conditional approval of this project. While the language is suitable and there is an interested community, the test project has not been edited since November. Also, all pages in the test project seem to have been created by one user.

    ===Wikipedia Karelian===
    I propose the conditional approval of this project. The language is suitable, there is an interested community, and the test project is active. All that remains is the translation of localization files.

  2. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    15 May 2007 07:32

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  3. Shanel Kalicharan
    15 May 2007 11:52

    Hi Gerard,

    There is actually a test project at http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/krl. This is the test project linked to from the request.

  4. —
    15 May 2007 23:06

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  5. —
    15 May 2007 23:13

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  6. —
    15 May 2007 23:21

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  7. —
    16 May 2007 00:59

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  8. Shanel Kalicharan
    16 May 2007 14:07

    Hello all,

    Just to clarify, the Karelian language should be using the fiu-krl code? Since nobody has objected, I will go ahead and conditionally approve the Javanese Wikibooks later today. GerardM has pointed out to me that the Karelian dialects may be problematic (they have no standard dialect), so I have asked on the request how great the difference is between them. Otherwise, I would go ahead and conditionally approve it as well.

  9. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    16 May 2007 14:18

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  10. Shanel Kalicharan
    16 May 2007 16:02

    Well, I'm confused now. :)

  11. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    16 May 2007 16:14

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  12. —
    16 May 2007 18:18

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  13. Shanel Kalicharan
    16 May 2007 21:03

    Hello,

    I'll leave the code issue to Karen and Gerard, but as I mentioned before I have asked on the request for an explanation of the differences between the dialects. I doubt we'd have an expert in the Karelian language handy, but I don't see why they would allow all four dialects on the test project if they were that different. We'll see what they say I suppose.

    As for not being able to post to wikipedia-l, perhaps the list moderator would know.

  14. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    16 May 2007 21:21

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  15. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    17 May 2007 15:58

    Well… most small communities with poor internet connection and few native speakers are going to be pretty much in this condition. So we have a dilemma: we either allow mish-mash or promote one-man bands (the latter seems to me much worse than original research, since most of the “sect-wikies” we have originated exactly like this: one admin dictating the law to a small community).

    Denying them also originates a contradiction with what we have jut decided about Classical Greek, when we opted to have a mish-mash to avoid resource dispersion. We can choose either way, but I’d really like us to be consistent. Communities are going to notice shifts in our behavior just as I do. I guess it’s time we take a clear stand on this problem and apply it from now on.

  16. Sabine Cretella
    17 May 2007 16:10

    Well: there are several wikis that have to live with multiple languages or dialects on one wiki. Neapolitan is only one of the many examples (where we have anyway a particular situation). The Sardininan wikipedia dealt quite good with it at the beginning - I did not have a look for quite a while, but it is possible.

    People should co-operate in maintaining their various languages that are grouped in one code - they are a bigger community and therefore can help each other to clean vandalisms. The only thing required is that they actually mark each article so that you understand in which language it is written.

    On most of these wikis people will be able to read the other variations/languages since they are very similar. So where is the problem? One code - multiple languages: it is feasible. No, no admin may dictate. The problem in people's minds often is that they look at admins and bureaucrats as if they were little god fathers ... no they are not. They are simply people who know a bit more about a wiki and who can deal with spam and create admins in the case of a bureaucrat. But having these priviledges (??? sometimes I ask myself if they are priviledges and not just a burden ...) does NEVER mean that they have more power than the other users.

    That is what people have to understand before they start a wiki. Being an admin just means to be able to handle certain things - it has nothing to do with giving a direction where a wiki has to go.

    I hope this helps.

  17. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    17 May 2007 16:25

    Hoi!

    > Being an admin just means to be able to handle certain things - it
    > has nothing to do with giving a direction where a wiki has to go.

    Yes, but sometimes we end up in dealing with things like the be-war, or cases in which admins ban each other for personal reasons, or even worse for ideological reasons. This happens (although it's luckily in the ream of "not too frequently"), and the smaller the community, the more we are likely to deal with the problem.

    One of the reasons why I'd like to keep our starting communities within the boundaries of a minimal initial human size is that having a real community from the beginning acts as a limiter to dictatorial trends (if anyone has them in mind).

  18. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    17 May 2007 19:02

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  19. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    17 May 2007 19:22

    Hoi !

    <this text is quoted from a user who has not agreed to public archival.>

    Good for me. Who can we ask? The only direct knowledge I have of the subject is a friend of mine who is Veps (around the Petrrozavodsk area) and claims that all karelian languages are mutually intelligible with Finnish. But I have no way to check that personally.

  20. Shanel Kalicharan
    17 May 2007 20:01

    Hello Gerard,

    Where is it documented or written that they are separate languages? From an admittedly quick google search, I cannot find anything that says they are definitely separate languages. The Wikipedia article says that efforts on a standard dialect are underway. In fact I found this rather cool announcement on the Karelian government's website describing the creation of a uniform Karelian alphabet <http://www.gov.karelia.ru/News/2007/04/0417_06_e.html> . This is the first step in the creation of a standard dialect. Even if they are different languages, it shouldn't be a big deal to ask them to request separate projects or allow only one dialect/language on the test project.

  21. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    17 May 2007 23:06

    *   In fact I found this rather cool announcement on the Karelian
    *   government's website describing the creation of a uniform Karelian
    <http://www.gov.karelia.ru/News/2007/04/0417_06_e.html> alphabet .

    It’s a bit more complicated than that. The russian version of the site reports two different alphabets for Veps and Karelian

    Karelian : http://www.gov.karelia.ru/gov/Photos/photo.html?id=8815

    Veps : http://www.gov.karelia.ru/gov/Photos/photo.html?id=8814

    They have normative value in force of the following legislative decision of the Karelian Government since March 16, 2007

    Text here : http://www.gov.karelia.ru/gov/Legislation/docs/2007/03/37p_1.doc

    Since they are treated as two separeted normative languages at official level I’m afraid that joining them would really make little sense.

    The text gives full normative value to a precedent deliberation called «Confirmation of the Alphabets and Grammar Rules of the Karelian and Veps Languages», that was originally published (but not approved thus far) on Apr 20, 1989. This deliberation had been previously stopped by the statement (law ?) «? ?????? ??????? ??» (about the language of the people belonging in the Russian Federation) that had been voted on the emotional wave following the terrorist act against the Theatre in Moskow. According to that decision of the Russian Parliament all languages in the RF had to use the cyrillic alfabeth (with possible extensions). Now this seems to be gone (or maybe the Karelian government decided to ignore that law since the emotional background that generated it has vanished).

    According to this document http://www.polpred.com/free/tochki/tochki.pdf courses of the three (sic!) Karelain populations (Karelian, Veps plus Ingermanlands, the latter do not appear to have any normative activity on their language, at least, none that I can trace). Teaching activity is reported only for Karelian, since 1990. This seems to make sense with what my friend Veps said, that is, that no real Veps exist anymore, they are all mixed and the language is basically extinct, while Karelian can still be heard. The document says that Karelians live in quite compact groups, so it makes sense to have schools for them. I know there are special laws protecting Veps, so many people now declare themselves Veps to access the special status (for example, a number of reserved places in elite Moskow universities). These rules were made to encourage Veps people to keep and develop their language. Anyway, according to this document http://illh.krc.karelia.ru/sbornik.pdf the number of Veps in 2002 have further decreased to 8.000 units in the 2002 census.

    The good news is that there does not seem to be such a tense political situation around this language as there is around Belorusian. So possibly we could try and contact officers of the Republic of Karelia to ask for an official declaration about the normative situation of the languages (since I can find no published version of the grammars for me to make a comparison). Practical help could come from any finnish native speaker, too. Finland is actively intervening in the cultural policies of the Karelian Republic, and possibly we could find some interesting material in Finnish (but I’m afraid I can’t help you with that).

  22. —
    18 May 2007 01:57

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  23. —
    18 May 2007 01:59

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  24. Shanel Kalicharan
    18 May 2007 04:00

    Awesome. :)

  25. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    19 May 2007 12:13

    <this comment is marked as private.>

Wikipedia Rotuman & Eurofarsi, Wikiversity Turkish[edit]

The request for a Rotuman Wikipedia was conditionally approved, the request for a Eurofarsi Wikipedia was rejected, and no decision was reached on the second request for a Turkish Wikiversity.

  1. Shanel Kalicharan
    19 May 2007 03:16

    Hello,

    I propose the following conditional approvals and rejections.

    ===Rotuman Wikipedia<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Rotuman>===
    I propose the conditional approval of this project. While the test project is not active, the language is suitable and the two proposers are native speakers.

    ===Eurofarsi Wikipedia<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Eurofarsi>===
    I propose the rejection of this request. Eurofarsi is not a different language, but rather romanized Farsi. If anything, this should be integrated into the Farsi Wikipedia.

    ===Turkish Wikiversity<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikiversity_Turkish_2>===
    I propose the conditional approval of this project. The language is suitable, there is an interested community, and localization should not be a problem if not already done so. The beta wikiversity was only created a little while ago, so it currently has no pages. However, there is no shortage of Turkish speakers, so this should not be a problem.

  2. Sabine Cretella
    19 May 2007 06:19

    I am not checking any codes etc. now - but as basics: yes I agree with this.

  3. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    19 May 2007 16:36

    Ok 4 me :-) I haven’t checked the codes, but I’m okay with the underlying philosophy. Eurofarsi should better ask an automatic transliterator to add to farsi, if they are strong enough a community to support it AND and ISO recognized.

  4. Jon Harald Søby
    21 May 2007 08:35

    On 5/19/07, Shanel Kalicharan wrote:
    >
    > Hello,
    >
    > I propose the following conditional approvals and rejections.
    >
    > ===Rotuman Wikipedia<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Rotuman>
    > ===
    > I propose the conditional approval of this project. While the test project
    > is not active, the language is suitable and the two proposers are native
    > speakers.
    >
    > ===Eurofarsi Wikipedia<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Eurofarsi>
    > ===
    > I propose the rejection of this request. Eurofarsi is not a different
    > language, but rather romanized Farsi. If anything, this should be integrated
    > into the Farsi Wikipedia.

    I agree with these, they are good.


    ===Turkish Wikiversity<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikiversity_Turkish_2>
    > ===
    > I propose the conditional approval of this project. The language is
    > suitable, there is an interested community, and localization should not be a
    > problem if not already done so. The beta wikiversity was only created a
    > little while ago, so it currently has no pages. However, there is no
    > shortage of Turkish speakers, so this should not be a problem.

    I'm a bit skeptical here. The number of interested participants is low, and they could soon lose interest if it proves not to be a success. The number of potential speakers is irrelevant – see how the Norwegian Wiktionary, Wikibooks, Wikisource, etc are doing for examples. I think they should start a test project first, and when we see how that goes, we can approve.

  5. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    21 May 2007 09:47

    ?????? ???? :-) ? ??? ????????????????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????????? :-)

  6. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    21 May 2007 12:24

    <this user has not agreed to public archival.>

  7. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    21 May 2007 12:28

    LOLOLOL sorry, it wasn’t obviously meant to come here :-)

  8. Shanel Kalicharan
    21 May 2007 20:52

    Hello all,

    I have conditionally approved the Rotuman Wikipedia and rejected the Eurofarsi Wikipedia. I have taken no action on the Turkish Wikiversity.

  9. Arria Belli (Maria Fanucchi)
    01 June 2007 14:59

    I agree with Jon on the Turkish Wikiversity proposal. There are certainly many Turkish speakers around, but the Turkish-speaking Wikimedia community doesn't seem to be very organised. The Turkish-language Wikipedia is only starting to take off, for example. A test wiki seems like a good idea to see if the users have enough time and enthusiasm for this kind of project in their language.

Wikipedia Hakka[edit]

The second request for a Hakka Wikipedia was approved.

  1. Jon Harald Søby
    22 May 2007 19:42

    I now formally propose the approval of the Hakka Wikipedia. The localization has gone very well, and when setting Hakka to my language on Betawiki, I see very little English. All important messages have been translated, and I'm sure the rest are coming soon as well. I'm mailing Erik about approving it now, and will open a bug requesting it as soon as he replies.

  2. Shanel Kalicharan
    22 May 2007 19:53

    I support the approval of this project.

  3. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    23 May 2007 05:50

    Ok 4 me

Wikipedia Latgalian[edit]

No formal decision was reached on the second request for a Latgalian Wikipedia.

  1. Shanel Kalicharan
    24 May 2007 03:10

    Hello all,

    This request has been open for a few months now. The test project looks to be successful, having over 326 articles. However, the issue of language code has come up again. I personally am all for approving this project; it seems quite unfair to reject a project simply because there is not (yet) an ISO code. What do you think?

  2. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    24 May 2007 06:02

    Hoi!

    No way. If you say yes to one you lose the moral right to say No to anyone else. Besides, it would be ABSOLUTELY unfair to all those who have been denied even access to the incubator, based on their missing a code. Those who gave them access to the incubator DO have the moral responsibility to go and present their formal excuses to the community, though. Policies are there to be read, so those who made fun of people’s time, money and work (as it happened in this case) are now responsible for the results, that amount to a general loss. People wasted their time, wikimedia wasted their public image and all because the incubator space is given away when EVERYONE perfectly knows how it will all end. Yes, everyone.

    I said it before and I will repeat it until forever: Our internal radical-chic mafias think only of themselves. Once they can reach orgasm by saying that “we are free” it doesn’t really matter how this impact on real people. Too bad for the Latglians, next time they will know how little people in wmf should be trusted and maybe they will learn to check the policies, before being deluded into thinking that “everything is possible anyway, just do it”. It is NOT like that.

    Once more, we have to solve this. People cannot be used to play with, as it happened with these guys. They are far from being the last “unfortunate case” and all because someone thinks that “we can always change our mind later”.

    Well, NO. N-O. I’m not going to change my mind EVER. (Pls archive the following in GIANT letters). No code means no project, even if your incubator is bigger and better than en.wiki.

    As per the Latglians
     Yes it is unfair. IMHO we should ask WHO let the Latglians waste their time and let’s have THOSE people personally present their explanations (even just doing nothing to stop them IS a responsibility). I’d punch these people’s faces, if I was a Latglian.

  3. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    24 May 2007 07:49

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  4. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    24 May 2007 08:02

    Hoi!

    Well, it might be either of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latgalian_language

    FMI, why a 639-6 code? I mean, the -6 should be hierarchy oriented, as far as I remember. Does that mean we have another cluster case like Karelian?

  5. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    24 May 2007 08:33

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  6. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    24 May 2007 08:46

    Hoi!

    I did give it a look. What worries me is this:

    http://www.balticsww.com/latgalian.htm

    You know that I will oppose ANY political recognition given by WMF even (or better, especially) when, as in this case, I’d open a bottle to celebrate the day in which they get political recognition. Yet they have a conflict situation that is absolutely typical for many small linguistic entities, and they cannot be allowed any individual special treatment. If we feel that a request for a code by them can be successful I’m very eager to help them in getting one, but until then... rules are rules for everybody, including the ones I like.

    I’m still not clear why it started to appear in the 639-6 set, though. Can anyone explain? Does it mean that 639-6 is in growing mode, while 639-3 is trying to settle down for stability?

  7. —
    24 May 2007 15:43

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  8. —
    24 May 2007 15:41

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  9. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    24 May 2007 16:20

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  10. Shanel Kalicharan
    24 May 2007 17:15

    Yo Berto,

    Which projects have been denied access to the incubator due to lack of a code? I know you believe that we should control access to the incubator, but I have never heard of a language code requirement for starting a test project on the incubator.

    I understand that you have a cynical view of the WMF; however, I do not see how adding an additional layer of bureaucracy will protect new projects from bureaucracy.

  11. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    24 May 2007 18:44

    Hi Shanel,

    We told Romanesco not to even start a project, since they have no ISO code and they will eventually be denied. I explained the requesting guy what the problem was and offered help to get in touch with with it.wiki to get room for them there. It is a bit less “sacred in principle” but it’s MUCH more helpful if what you need is real server space and not a bunch of discussions and theories + a couple of wasted months. Instead of turning them wild because they had been played with like full blown idiots we remained in good personal relations. Is it THAT bad?

    The alternative was getting them to THIS point, in which we may well end up in telling them “sorry, you guys are out” after letting them sweat for months in vain. I mean, based on this you should never put “no parking” signs anywhere. Why should you spoil the fun? You should smile to the poor idiot when he parks his car and later fine him for reasons he could not know. Is this what the “sacred principles” mean? If so, then I’m against them. Ban me if you wish, because I’m absolutely unwilling to become politically correct at the expenses of basic good manners towards the people requesting server space.

    I don’t know whether I’m cynical or not. IMHO, I’m but a normal moron who personally underwent the hassle of starting to cope with the wmf bureaucratic chaos not too long ago. What this obnoxious experience meant in practice is written in a previously archived msg. Maybe it’s cynical, but it’s real life experience. As per why I’ll drop dead against any project lacking an ISO code, the answer is here: http://eng.i-iter.org/what-exactly-language I never had problems in saying what I mean and saying it clear.

    I already made a proposal aiming to TOTALLY get rid of ANY step of approval by examining and pre-judging all existing codes before they even get requested. It would reduce our future role to saying whether an “interface only” linguistic entity can be upgraded to full independence. I mentioned how we can do it and how long it would take. The only (funny) answer I get is that some people (mainly English native speakers) label a “no human intervention” process as “bureaucracy”. Okay, be it, labels come and go, y’know… Maybe someday someone will get tired of political labels and we shall start to draw functional schemes, in instead. So we shall finally be able to simply count the number of logical passages.

    Maybe I’m a monster, but at least anyone can easily forecast how I will vote and why. I’d rather be a simple officer applying a bad clear-cut policy than a Good Prince Charming from whose mood the newbies shall depend. If this is being cynical… then okay, I’m cynical and proud. :-)

  12. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    24 May 2007 18:52

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  13. Arria Belli (Maria Fanucchi)
    01 June 2007 14:45

    I think the Latgalian Wikipedia should be given the green light (there are more than enough interested users who are native speakers and there's enough activity in the incubator, more than on some wikis with an ISO code), but whatever we do, I think it would be nice if we could decide now. If we refuse their request, we'll at least be saving them more months of work for nothing, and if we approve it they can start working on it right away. This is their second request (the first was closed due to reform).

  14. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    01 June 2007 14:49

    Yes, let’s stop them. As said before, we cannot absolutely accept them (although I deeply sympathize with them) and it’s 200% unfair to let them work for nothing. We should have a clear talk with a representant of the community and advise them on how they can move to obtain an ISO code, but in the meantime they should be stopped.

  15. —
    01 June 2007 18:01

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  16. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    01 June 2007 18:07

    Hoi!

    Then we sadly have to refuse them. I'm sorry for them, but no exception means no exception.

  17. Shanel Kalicharan
    02 June 2007 17:51

    Hello,

    Why must we automatically refuse them? The Language Proposal Policy does say that a valid BCP 47 code is acceptable for conditional approval. If Karen can get a variant code for them from IANA, then would this be a satisfactory solution? But if it is not and we *must* reject this project, who volunteers to be "that guy" and tell them they can't have a wiki? .

  18. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    02 June 2007 18:29

    Hoi!

    No, it wouldn’t be a satisfactory solution. We cannot have as many standards as we please. Thus far we have required an ISO 639-3 code or die. If we relax this request for anyone we are
    1) either reopening all previously refused requests OR
    2) making a patent preference for a single request.

    IANA is not acceptable because anyone can have an IANA code simply like that, it’s an almost automated process. Any time someone has a problem with local admins he will simply require an IANA tag and then he’ll come here. At that point we will judge based not on an externally determined objective method, but rather on our own personal “feelings”. This is wikipedia, we have to be as NPOV as possible. Latgalian does have issues with their central government. ISO says the government is right. Now we say it is wrong. Only the Latvian government, BTW, because one month ago we just said that the Belorussian government is right.

    We can do it, obviously we can, we can also call the Klingons back, but then be prepared to get as many as 20-30 requests from Italy, none of which you’ll have formal grounds to deny and all of which will break existing small wikies (like this latgalian one does to latvian). How will you deny them? Based on the fact that they don’t come from Latvia? It doesn’t sound like a reason that anyone in his mind would take seriously. How will you keep your stance to taraskieviz with the belorussians? Once again, just because they are not Latvians? I mean… we do have an history of decisions we made. We cannot go left-right-center like a teenager we smoked too much skunk. If we say yes to IANA for one, then it’s got to be yes for all and it’s got to be in the policy.

    Even about possible future problems we aren’t talking sci-fi at all, as we already have one such open issue, for LMO-ins. More are going to come. What’s the utility in breaking things until they have one real user in 12 wikies? Just to make sure that later on we will have lots of projects to close? All kids know how to use bots, it takes 5 minutes to make 400 articles in LMO-ins, reusing the bots published and already translated for LMO (most of which ARE in insubric already). Once they have their wiki they can forget about it and go make bots for another request. It’s that easy, if you open the gates to the flood. Especially since in Italy it’s election time again and the wikies are considered as a potential political tool (surely not only in Italy, this happens anywhere where you have minorities). I said it and repeat it, it’s all published here: http://eng.i-iter.org/what-exactly-language and sorry, no, I do NOT presume any good or bad faith. I check actual results, and that’s it. Keep politics OUT of here or you’ll be sorry.

    We have a problem that we are going to have many more times. We either remove the ISO filter (in this case do find me a substitute, because I’m not going to remain here and fight the flood, I hate it when it becomes a matter of “do we personally like these guys or not”) or have the guts to tell the people the truth. BTW, it’s time to make sure that we publish the policy we actually use in making a judgment. BCP 47 is not ISO 639, so we must correct either correct the policy or the judgment process.

  19. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    02 June 2007 22:46

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  20. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    03 June 2007 10:54

    Hoi!

    All fine for me, but if go this way we urgently need to modify the published policy, in order to:
    1) define IANA acceptable for GUI only
    2) formally specify the need for an ISO 639 code
    3) define when a provisional ISO code is valid (where it is published, where one can check it, etc)

    I know I’m a boring bastard, but put yourselves in the shoes of those who require a wiki. The worst is when you have the impression of being subject of some arbitrary decision that you cannot understand and that is kept far from your eyes in principle. We can use just any policy, but it’s got to be clearly expressed.

  21. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    03 June 2007 12:46

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  22. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    03 June 2007 17:42

    Okay, then IANA is 100% out. No probs for me, as long as we do define EXACTLY what policy we are using (and we publish it). I’d say it’s time we get to a final formal definition. I’m ready to accept whatever we choose, but it must be clear for users. If codes may be confusing for us, go figure out the effect on someone who did not even know that ISO 639 was there. We need something extremely clear. It may be unfair (all criteria are, to a certain extent) but it must be a clear rule with a wel identified ruler.

    We have two positions :
    1) IANA can be used to define dialects (Karen)
    2) IANA cannot be used at all (Gerard)

    Any alternatives? All are agreeing that a IANA code will not define a language, anyway, I seem to understand.

  23. —
    03 June 2007 21:15

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  24. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    04 June 2007 02:16

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  25. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    04 June 2007 12:39

    Hoi!

    Is there any official statement from the ISO 639-6 Committee (Board, or whatever) endorsing the data published on OmegaWiki? If we have this, then at least we can state an official source to define what a “provisional code” is (let alone deciding whether we should use it).

  26. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    04 June 2007 13:10

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  27. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    04 June 2007 13:23

    Hoi!

    It’s enough for me. If we are to publish a policy that includes “provisional codes” we are also to specify a qualified source for them. This much is enough. Sorry for my annoying “notary stance” but someone must do it if we are to publicly document our decisional process.

    Now, how do we solve the discrepancy in interpretation between you and Karen? You seem to have different sources, one of which says Latgalian is contained in Latvian, the other saying they are pairs. We need a way out of this, since it may well become endemic once we accept to use unpublished entities that may vary at almost no notice. Get me right, I’m just trying to find a practical way to deal with the problem in formal terms, instead of just saying “yes, I like this”. If a process is clear to dumb me, than maybe it’s clear to many more less dumb users.

    Also, what do we do if the code changes under our legs? It is a possibility (let alone this peculiar case) if we use provisional codes. We should define at least a general guideline for such a case.

  28. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    04 June 2007 14:44

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  29. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    04 June 2007 22:28

    Hoi!

    That’s VERY good news. As per contact: I think we can have a template like «a native speaker that can represent the community pls contact LangCon asap» and simply put it in the first page when we need it. What do you think? The second question is: what address can we give? Basically I gather we want these conversations not to happen on a public forum, right? So how do we do it?

  30. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    04 June 2007 23:03

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  31. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    04 June 2007 23:19

    Hoi,

    Ok, I’ll do the same with Karelian, if you agree. They also seem to be nice people, I see no reason why we shouldn’t speak with them directly and ask them to help us sort out the apparent confusion with codes vs russian regulations.

  32. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    04 June 2007 23:26

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  33. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    04 June 2007 23:33

    Ok :-)

  34. Shanel Kalicharan
    05 June 2007 02:19

    Would it also be feasible to invite some of the Latglians to speak with us on the mailing list? That way we can all discuss with them privately (add themselves to the CC box).

  35. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    05 June 2007 05:29

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  36. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    05 June 2007 10:24

    Hoi!

    Yes, they should see and hear only about their own business :-) We can simply revive the old trick ;) Have he “list” of addresses written explicitly in the msg, as we did before this m-list was born. It’s going to be just several messages, not much fuss :-) That is, we don’t address the upcoming latgalian msgs to the list, but to everyone of us, privately. It’s got the same effect but it keeps them out of here.

  37. Shanel Kalicharan
    03 June 2007 13:55

    Hey,

    So, we are actually in agreement then? What I was trying to get at was that we could conditionally approve them, like the policy says we can, but not give them final approval (so no wiki) until they have an ISO 639 code. I'm sure they won't mind continuing to work in the Incubator until that time. If we must modify the policy to make things clearer, then I'm all for it.

  38. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    03 June 2007 13:59

    Hoi !

    Well... there are two open ways :
    1. we do get a code
    2. we don’t

    We are not issueing the code ourselves, so it’s better not to make promises when we do not control the process. What I’d say that we all agree with it’s that it’s time to speak with them and let them know what is going on, telling them what their chances are. If they can get a code, then it’s the best for all. If they cannot, then they must get ready to negotiate for space in the Latvian wiki. I assume we are all willing to support them in both cases, but we do have to involve them directly and make sure they are informed.

  39. —
    03 June 2007 15:44

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  40. Gerard Meijssen (GerardM)
    03 June 2007 17:13

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  41. Bèrto 'd Sèra
    03 June 2007 17:37

    Hoi,

    1) means that if we define something as a "dialect" (as implicit in the absence of an ISO code and the presence of a IANA tag only, if I have got you right) we fall back into an en_uk/en_us situation. We can have different user interfaces, but we can have only one common wiki for all variants.

    I have no answer for the "provisional code".

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