Natural point of view

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Hierdie is 'n opstel. Dit gee die mening en idees van enkele gebruikers op Meta-Wiki weer, maar word waarskynlik nie deur almal ondersteun nie. Dit is ook nie 'n amptelike beleid of riglyn op Meta-Wiki nie, maar dit mag wel een op ander Wikimedia-projekte wees. Voel asseblief vry om hierdie bladsy soos nodig by te werk, of gebruik die kletsblad om groot wysigings voor te stel.

هذه نصيحة. تعبر عن آراء وأفكار بعض مستخدمي ميتا-ويكي لكن قد لا تكون مدعومة على نطاق واسع. هذه ليست سياسة على ميتا-ويكي، لكنها قد تكون سياسة أو إرشاد في مشاريع ويكيميديا آخرى. لا تتردد في تحديث هذه الصفحة عن الحاجة، أو استخدم صفحة النقاش للتعديلات الجوهرية.

Ovo je esej. Sadrži misli i ideje nekih korisnika Meta-Wikija, ali ne mora nužno da bude široko prihvaćen. Ovo nije pravilo na Meta-Wikiju, ali može da budi pravilo ili uputa na drugim projektima Wikipedije. Slobodno promijenite ovu stranu po potrebi ili koristite stranu za razgovor za veće promjene.

Açò és un assaig. Expressa les opinions i idees d'alguns usuaris de Wikimedia o del Meta-Wiki però pot ser que no tingui un ampli suport. Això no és una política del Meta-Wiki, però pot ser política o guia d'estil en algun altre projecte Wikimedia. Sentiu-vos lliures d'actualitzar aquesta pàgina quan faci falta o utilitzeu la pàgina de discussió per a proposar-hi canvis d'importància.

Dette er et essay. Det udtrykker visse Wikimedia- eller Meta-Wiki-brugeres holdninger og idéer, som ikke nødvendigvis deles af et flertal. Dette udgør ikke en politik på Meta-Wikien, men det kan være en politik eller et regelsæt på et andet Wikimedia-projekt. Du er velkommen til at ændre denne side efter behov, eller til at foreslå større ændringer på diskussionssiden.

Dies ist ein Essay. Er drückt die Meinungen und Ideen einiger Meta-Wiki-Benutzer aus und wird eventuell nur von wenigen Benutzern unterstützt. Dies ist keine Richtlinie aus dem Meta-Wiki, kann aber Richtlinie oder Leitsatz in anderen Wikimedia-Projekten sein. Tu dir keinen Zwang an und aktualisiere diese Seite falls nötig, oder benutze die Diskussionsseite, um größere Veränderungen vorzuschlagen.

This is an essay. It expresses the opinions and ideas of some wikimedians or Meta-Wiki users but may not have wide support. This is not policy on the Meta-Wiki, but it may be policy or guideline on other Wikimedia projects. Feel free to update this page as needed, or use the discussion page to propose major changes.

Esto es un ensayo. Este texto expresa opiniones e ideas de algunos usuarios pero éstas no tienen un amplio consenso. Esto no es una política de Meta pero sí puede serlo en otros proyectos. Sea usted libre de actualizar esta página o use su página de discusión para proponer cambios mayores.

Jen eseo. Ĝi esprimas la opiniojn kaj ideojn de iuj Vikipediistoj aŭ uzantoj de Meta-Wiki, sed eble ne havus vastan subtenon. Ĝi ne estas la regularo de Meta-Wiki, sed ĝi eble estas regularo en aliaj projektoj de Wikipedia. Laŭvole ĝisdatigu ĉi tiun paĝon laŭ bezono, aŭ uzu la diskuto-paĝon por proponi grandajn ŝanĝojn.

این صفحه یک انشا است. این صفحه نظر و ایدهٔ برخی از کاربران فراویکی را بیان می‌کند اما ممکن است از حمایت گسترده‌ای برخوردار نباشد. این صفحه یک سیاست در فراویکی نیست، اما ممکن است سیاست یا رهنمودی در دیگر پروژه‌های ویکی‌مدیا باشد. آزادانه آن را به روز کنید، و برای تغییرهای بزرگ از صفحهٔ بحث استفاده کنید.

Tämä on essee. Se ilmaisee joidenkin wikimedialaisten tai Meta-Wikin käyttäjien mielipiteitä tai ajatuksia, mutta sillä ei välttämättä ole laajaa kannatusta. Tämä ei ole Meta-Wikin käytäntö, mutta saattaa olla käytäntö tai ohje muissa Wikimedia-hankkeissa. Päivitä tätä sivua tarpeen mukaan tai ehdota isoja muutoksia keskustelusivulla.

Ceci est un essai. Il exprime les opinions et les idées de certains contributeurs de Meta-Wiki, mais peut ne pas renconter le soutien des autres. Il n'est ni une règle ou une recommandation sur Meta-Wiki, mais peut l'être sur d'autres projets Wikimédia. N'hésitez pas à modifier cette page si besoin est, ou à proposer des changements majeurs sur la la page de discussion.

Dit is in essay. It jout mieningen en ideeën wer fan guon meidoggers op Meta-Wiki, mar it is net sein dat eltsenien it der mei iens is. Dit is ek gjin offisjeel belied of rjochtline op Meta-Wiki, al kin dat wol sa wêze op oare Wikimedia-projekten. Fiel jo frij om dizze side wêr't dat nedich is bij te wurkjen of om grutte wizigings út te stellen op de oerlisside.

עברית: דף זה הוא מאמר. הדף מבטא את הדעות והרעיונות של חלק מהמשתמשים במיזמי קרן ויקימדיה או במטא־ויקי, אך ייתכן שאין להם תמיכה נרחבת. דף זה הוא לא דף מדיניות במטא־ויקי, אך ייתכן שהוא דף מדיניות או דף הנחיות במיזמי ויקימדיה אחרים. הרגישו חופשיים לעדכן את הדף לפי הצורך, או השתמשו בדף השיחה להצעת שינויים משמעותיים.

Ovo je esej. Sadrži mišljenja i ideje nekih korisnika Meta-Wikija, ali ne mora nužno biti široko prihvaćen. Ovo nije pravilo na Meta-Wikiju, ali može biti pravilo ili uputa na drugim Wikimedijinim projektima. Slobodno promijenite ovu stranicu po potrebi ili koristite stranicu za razgovor za predlaganje većih promjena.

Ez egy esszé. Néhány Wikimédia- vagy Meta-Wiki-felhasználó véleményét fejezi ki, de lehet, hogy nem kapott széles körű támogatást. Nem irányelv a Meta-Wikin, de irányelv vagy útmutató lehet más Wikimédia-projektekben. Szabadon frissítheted ezt a lapot, ha szükséges, vagy használd a vitalapot, ha nagyobb változtatást szeretnél javasolni.

Isto es un essayo. Illo exprime le opiniones e ideas de alcun wikimedianos o usatores de Meta-Wiki, ma pote non esser appoiate per le consenso general. Isto non es un politica del Meta-Wiki, ma pote esser un politica o directiva in altere projectos de Wikimedia. Sia libere de actualisar iste pagina in caso de necessitate, o usa le pagina de discussion pro proponer major alterationes.

Ini adalah sebuah esai. Esai ini menyatakan pendapat dan gagasan dari beberapa Wikimediawan atau pengguna Meta-Wiki dan mungkin tidak didukung oleh komunitas secara meluas. Esai ini bukan kebijakan Meta-Wiki, tapi mungkin saja merupakan kebijakan atau pedoman di proyek-proyek Wikimedia lainnya. Silakan memperbarui halaman ini seperlunya, atau gunakan halaman pembicaraan untuk mengusulkan perubahan besar.

Questo è un saggio. Esprime le opinioni e le idee di alcuni contributori di Meta-Wiki, ma può non incontrare il sostegno di altri. Non è una raccomandazione o una linea guida su Meta-Wiki, ma lo potrebbe essere su altri progetti Wikimedia. Non esitate a modificare questa pagina se occorre, o a proporre modifiche rilevanti nella sua pagina di discussione.

この記事はエッセイです。何人かのメタウィキの利用者の意見と考えを表していますが、幅広い支持を得ているとは限りません。メタウィキの方針ではありませんが、他のウィキメディア・プロジェクトの方針かガイドラインであるかもしれません。必要に応じてこのページを遠慮なく編集し、大きな変更の提案にはこの記事のノートを使用してください。

이 문서는 수필입니다. 이것은 일부 사용자의 의견을 나타낸 것으로, 총의를 얻지 않았을 수 있습니다. 이 문서는 메타위키 정책은 아니지만, 다른 위키미디어 프로젝트에서 정책이나 지침으로 사용하고 있을 수도 있습니다. 이 문서를 편집하거나 주요 내용을 바꿔야 한다면 토론 문서를 이용해 주세요.

Ова е есеј. Во него е искажано мислењето и идеите на извесни викимедијанци или корисници на Мета-Вики, но не значи дека тоа ужива широка поддршка. Ова не претставува правило на Мета-Вики, но може да виде правило или напатствие на други проекти на Викимедија. Најслободно менувајте ја страницава, или пак користете ја страницата за разговор ако сакате да предложите некои поголеми промени.

हा एक निबंध आहे. यामध्ये काही विकिपीडिया सदस्यांची किंवा मेटा-विकि सदस्यांची मते आणि कल्पना मांडण्यात आल्या आहेत. त्यांना बहुतांशांचा पाठिंबा असेलच असे नाही. हा निबंध मेटा-विकिवरील धोरण मांडत नाही, पण इतर काही विकिमीडिया प्रकल्पांमध्ये हा निबंध धोरण किंवा मार्गदर्शक तत्व म्हणून वापरला जात असणे शक्य आहे. आवश्यक असेल तेव्हा विनासंकोच हे पान संपादित करा किंवा काही मोठे बदल सुचविण्यासाठी चर्चा पानाचा उपयोग करा.

Ini adalah sebuah karangan. Ia menyatakan pendapat serta buah fikiran sesetengah ahli wikimedia atau pengguna Meta-Wiki tetapi tidak semestinya mempunyai sokongan yang meluas. Ini bukannya polisi di Meta-Wiki, tetapi ia mungkin merupakan polisi atau garis panduan di projek-projek Wikimedia lain. Silakan mengemaskini laman ini jika perlu, atau gunakan laman perbincangannya untuk mengusulkan perubahan-perubahan yang besar.

Dit is een essay. Het geeft de meningen en ideeën van enkele gebruikers op Meta-Wiki weer, maar wordt waarschijnlijk niet door iedereen gesteund. Dit is ook geen officieel beleid of richtlijn op Meta-Wiki, maar dat kan het wel zijn op andere Wikimedia-projecten. Voel u vrij om deze pagina als nodig bij te werken, of om de overlegpagina te gebruiken om grote wijzigingen voor te stellen.

Aquò es una redaccion. Exprimís las opinions e las idèas d'unes contributors de MetaWiki, mas pòt rencontrar pas lo sosten dels autres. Es pas una règla o una recomandacion sus MetaWiki, mas o pòt èsser sus d'autres projèctes Wikimèdia. Esitetz pas a modificar aquesta pagina se fa mestièr, o a prepausar de cambiaments màgers sus la la pagina de discussion.

Ten artykuł jest esejem. Wyrażone są w nim opinie i pomysły niektórych wikimedian lub użytkowników Meta-Wiki, ale niekoniecznie mają szersze poparcie. Nie jest to zasada obowiązująca na Meta-Wiki, ale może to być zasada lub zalecenie na innych projektach Wikimediów. Możesz aktualizować tę stronę w razie potrzeby lub skorzystaj ze strony dyskusji artykułu aby zaproponować większe zmiany.

Isto é um ensaio. Ele expressa as opiniões e idéias de vários wikimedianos ou usuários do Meta-Wiki mas pode não ter grande respaldo. Isto não é uma política no Meta-Wiki, mas pode ser uma política ou orientação em outros projetos da Wikimedia. Sinta-se livre para atualizar esta página quando necessário, ou use a página de discussão para propor alterações maiores.

Acesta este un eseu. Aici sînt exprimate opiniile şi ideile unor utilizatori de pe Meta-Wiki, dar este posibil să nu aibă accepţiune majoritară. Aceasta nu are titlu de politică pe Meta-Wiki, dar poate fi politică sau ghid de reguli pe alte proiecte ale Wikipediei. Poţi să îmbunătăţeşti această pagină după cum crezi adecvat, sau să foloseşti pagina de discuţie pentru a propune schimbări majore.

Это эссе. Оно выражает мнения и идеи некоторых пользователей Мета-вики, но может не пользоваться широкой поддержкой. Эссе не является правилом Мета-вики, но, вероятно, может быть правилом или руководством в других проектах Викимедиа. Вы можете обновлять эту страницу как считаете нужным или воспользоваться страницей обсуждения, чтобы предложить масштабные изменения.

Ово је есеј. Садржи мисли и идеје неких корисника Мета-Викија, али не мора да буде широко прихваћен. Ово није правило на Мета-Викију, али може да буде правило или упутство на другим пројектима Викимедије. Не устручавајте се да промените ову страну по потреби или користите страну за разговор да бисте предложили веће промене.

Den här sidan är en essä. Den är inte en av Wikimedias policys eller riktlinjer, och återspeglar kanske endast författarnas åsikter. Uppdatera sidan om det behövs eller diskutera innehållet på diskussionssidan.

หน้านี้เป็นข้อเขียน แสดงถึงความคิดหรือไอเดียของผู้ใช้วิกิมีเดียหรือเมต้าวิกิบางคนซึ่งอาจจะยังไม่ได้รับการสนับสนุนกว้างอย่างขวางนัก นี่ไม่ใช่นโยบายบนเมต้าวิกิ, แต่อาจเป็นนโยบายหรือแนวทางของโครงการอื่น ๆ ของวิกิมีเดีย อย่ากังวลในการแก้ไขหน้านี้ตามที่คุณต้องการ หรือใช้หน้าอภิปรายในการเสนอการเปลี่ยนแปลงใหญ่ ๆ

Đây là một bài luận. Nó thể hiện ý kiến và ý tưởng của một số thành viên Wikimedia hoặc Meta-Wiki và có thể không được đồng tình một cách rộng rãi. Đây không phải là quy định tại Meta-Wiki, nhưng nó có thể là quy định hoặc hướng dẫn tại các dự án khác của Wikimedia. Xin hãy thoải mái cập nhật trang này nếu cần, hoặc sử dụng trang thảo luận để đề xuất những thay đổi lớn.

这是一篇论述。它只表达了部分维基人或元维基使用者的意见及观点，此等观点可能未获得广泛支持。这不是元维基的政策，但可能是属于其他维基计划的政策或指引。如有需要，欢迎更新本页面，或在讨论页提出修改的建议。

这是一篇论述。它只表达了部分维基人或元维基使用者的意见及观点，此等观点可能未获得广泛支持。这不是元维基的政策，但可能是属于其他维基计划的政策或指引。如有需要，欢迎更新本页面，或在讨论页提出修改的建议。

這是一篇論述. 它只表達了部分維基人或元維基使用者的意見及觀點，此等觀點可能未獲得廣泛支持。 這不是元維基的政策，但可能是屬於其他維基計劃的政策或指引。如有需要，歡迎更新本頁面，或在討論頁提出修改的建議。

Is there a natural point of view that is even less biased than the neutral point of view? Some argue that there is, and that over time the neutral view tends to the natural view, as empirical evidence displaces dogma and long-held beliefs.

The natural point of view is better known as an "embodied" or "body within ecology" point of view — the word "natural" is however evocative of, and easier to contrast with, views from the Enlightenment era.

Contents

[edit] What's "natural"?

One interpretation of that argument is that science has conquered religion, or more generally, that reason conquered faith. This view is generally associated with w:The Enlightenment and has led to theories of w:natural law which influenced w:Evolution of societies especially in the scientific era. It has been very influential, especially at increasing human physical comfort, increasing tolerance between followers of various religious dogmas, and at the creation of spectacular w:weapons of mass destruction.

These examples highlight why we might choose to avoid a "natural" point of view in favor of a "neutral" view de-escalating inter-human conflict. Or, alternatively, why we might choose to pursue and extend a "natural" point of view very deeply so as to cast light on the dangers of strict moral neutrality. The debate is unlikely to be resolved in the lifetime of anyone reading this. Some believe that it can only be summarized after the fact, as were w:The Renassiance and w:The Enlightenment, by a history of what some are already calling w:The Embodiment.

[edit] The "old neutral"?

We English-speaking internet users are by definition privileged people compared to others in the world. Those of us who write for others to read have some obligation to reach "out and down" to those less priveleged, and whose traditional world-views are in danger of being threatened by our work compiling what purports to be "useful knowledge" from a "neutral point of view". Most of us would view, in line with this history, a sort of progress through w:The Renaissance and w:The Enlightenment leading to what we think of as objective unbiased thinking. But in all previous eras of history, dominant cultures believed this, no matter how wrong they were.

[edit] An alternate take

An idea somewhat common among technical people: We speak for ourselves .... if other cultures are too lazy or incapable of publishing their thoughts then we help them publish or wire for broadcast but it is their responsbility to then use the resources provided to engage others with alternate world views with regard to their own. The awesome power of the internet; and the wikipedia or its derivatives; is that when the 3 Billionth or ten thousandth user arrives ..... they can make appropriate tweaks for themselves. We only have to approximate neutral presentation of various cases the best we can, each new consensus should improve the approximation. user:mirwin

[edit] The "new natural"?

Today, w:cognitive science and w:anthropology appear to be challenging a w:foundation ontology, based on physics and the w:scientific method, that was also inherited from w:The Enlightenment. Some dismiss this challenge as postmodern hogwash. Others take it very seriously and point to advances towards a w:cognitive science of mathematics, the w:anti-globalization movement, and even the rise of w:Green Parties, as evidence that even such commonly-held notions as mathematical proofs and the hard sciences may gain most of their reality from human observers whose hominid body is part of an evolving ecology. This view is popular among those who challenge w:Eurocentrism and mind-sets inherited from an era of w:colonization. It is also popular among those who see humans simply as arrogant w:Hominidae and perhaps identify more with the plight of the w:Great apes they extinct.

These are tough political questions, challenging our most basic sense of ourselves, and they will not be resolved by a few entries on w:primatology.

Like the "old natural" point of view that characterized w:The Enlightenment, the "new natural" point of view is in opposition to certain established norms and philosophies.

[edit] Criticism

Everyone obviously has a body, humans are obviously more like apes than like robots, and obviously we all need to breathe air and drink water etc. - what's the controversy? Things which contradict this just are not real, no matter how many papers have been written about them.

That's a fair statement of the natural point of view. But note that it makes an issue out of contradiction, new technologies that many seem as benevolent, and the animal nature of human beings. And seems to require academe to clear its conclusions with w:ecologists or w:cognitive scientists or w:biologists, which many would see as contradicting w:academic freedom.

It is important to note that there is a continuing controversy regarding the "neutral" versus "natural" point of view, and that w:wikipedia itself seeks to avoid controversy and track the current social idea of neutrality, whether or not it is moving in favor of the "natural" or away from it. If you tend to the "natural point of view", be careful not to impose it on others, nor to add more than a few lines to correct articles that seem to come from a strongly anti-natural bias. Although one could claim that any rewrite "towards the natural" is also "more neutral", that dodges the question of audience and the political necessity of compromises.

[edit] Ongoing controversy and editing wars

Multiple views should be expressed as fairly as possible and labeled as such so that any remaining bias or predisposition is available to the next viewer, user, or editor attempting to use the wikipedia. user:mirwin

[edit] Enthusiast vs. expert knowledge

I am writing articles on scientific facts and models that are not generally known outside professional circles, and which are highly politically charged. What can I do to ensure NPOV, and reduce the number of clowns who are simply destroying my articles every time they read one?

You can't do much about careless editors. The wikipedia model does allow pretty much anyone to remove key facts, take ideological issue with a piece of what you consider to be valid science, or just remove an article. A degrading of dialogue to this point will mean warring update-bots, so we must be careful not to annoy each other quite to that point. It's a community. So in addition to bringing forth counter-arguments, you must make a case for a natural point of view by subtly highlighting consequences of defying it in favor of a "more neutral" but "less natural" view.

There is almost always a negotiation, and almost always a hidden consensus. Even the most staunch faith groups and pure humanists, those who regard the human being as placed on Earth direct from Heaven, unable to comprehend the implications of a body or an ecology, must be accepting compromises sometimes.

A simple example: if someone was removing E=MC2 from physics articles, you might make note of the controversy that surrounded this theory and the lack of experimental evidence validating it until recently - and then link that evidence. You might make note of the controversy that has surrounded nuclear weapons and nuclear power since their beginnings. Acknowledging these bits of history might reduce the chances that someone censors science.

[edit] Resolution

That isn't working. Isn't there any bottom line or sense of closure?

Well, yes. Our modern scientific medicine tells us that if it works on a closely related primate, it's likely to work on us. Our psychology tells us that if it works on a child, it's likely to work on us until we get wise.

A Neutral Point of View might refer directly to medicine or cognitive psychology, or even developmental psychology. But it would be hard to prove. Another way to look at this is to imagine, beyond Neutral, that our own Natural Point of View is that of a wild body applying its own senses in a natural ecology.

This suggests a test: If you can explain it to a four year old human child, or an ape, in a garden, using only the limited 3000-4000 word vocabulary common to such persons, you can safely assume you have achieved the neutral point of view. If not, not. Your ethical judgement is therefore required.

[edit] Sensitivity to other views

So, politics or ethical judgements are actually assumed in all words?

Yes. Therefore, you are required by custom to be careful not only with your own political view, neutral, natural or otherwise, but also with those of others who may be offended by your view, apparent goals, or others who they see as sharing those goals and perhaps as some kind of a 'threat'.

Most subjects here are somewhat more complicated than the natural perspective and will assume things about body and ecology that are determined by a context (social, cultural, or otherwise). Don't be too concerned with this.

Politics is necessary to categorization. Even choosing the names of articles is somewhat political - especially insofar as you are excluding other views, and choosing to highlight some features of a subject and simply ignore others.

However necessary politics is, ideology is not necessary to categorization, if one is careful about detecting one's own inner conflicts and personal ethic. Start with your body. Move on to breathing, drinking water, food. You're not only building up a body, you're building up a view of an environment surrounding you, which includes both ecology - and other people.

[edit] Objectivity

I don't have time for all that. What else can I do to get neutral?

If there are multiple points of view starkly defined, then, lay them all out, especially on those points where they are most starkly opposed. Think like a journalist: you may not like Usama bin Laden but you'd interview him anyway.

That example highlights the political and moral nature of the controversy: Depending on who you are, and who or what you perceive your subject to be, you might like to shove a rifle or a microphone in their face. We all have likes and dislikes, moral judgements, and preferred methods of dealing that have worked for us in the past. To put yourself in a neutral state of mind, and comprehend your own natural bias, you may need to visualize something quite contrary to your own moral judgement, offending your own natural bias.

For instance, imagine you find a dead fish on a riverbank, crawling with maggots and swarming with flies. You might initially, naturally, be inclined to vomit or depart. Imagine, however, fighting that urge and sitting down somewhat upwind so the smell isn't overwhelming. Concentrate on the flies. You can deliberately decide that they are loving mothers taking care of their maggot-children in a fish-nursery. You can deliberately decide to perceive them as something normal, natural, even caring. You may be puking up your lunch even as you read this. But you are capable of it. You just did it...!

[edit] Perspective

OK, fine, I puked but I did it. I now understand what you're talking about, and I also see why the "natural" view is tough on people, and why they avoid it in favor of the "neutral". Why is this relevant to the wikipedia?

Well, we've all got our politics. And we've all got our own lives, which are lived out with a certain set of loyalties in a certain locality on the Earth. w:Hominidae all share a certain set of emotions, attitudes, desires, one of which is to have some control over their environment and of course their own body. Things which threaten that, like bacteria or warfare, are naturally going to inhibit us from thinking and writing things neutrally.

Personally, when I think hard about the money spent on nuclear weapons or particle accelerators, or technologies that threaten to wipe out all animal life and creativity on this planet, I feel much worse than I do thinking about the fly-mothers. I'd like to simply remove a great many articles that attract attention and possibly human talent to these very destructive fields.

The point is, we all feel that way about something. And understanding why someone devotes their life to nuclear weapons yields or the w:particle physics zoo or new ways to do w:biological warfare is essential to your ability to see and write the truth. Someone out there thinks its valuable.

The natural point of view doesn't let you avoid that. You have to face it, tough as that might be.

[edit] See also

[edit] External links

Retrieved from "http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Natural_point_of_view"