No to Wikiversity

From Meta, a Wikimedia project coordination wiki

Hierdie is 'n opstel. Dit gee die mening en idees van enkele gebruikers op Meta-Wiki weer, maar word waarskynlik nie deur almal ondersteun nie. Dit is ook nie 'n amptelike beleid of riglyn op Meta-Wiki nie, maar dit mag wel een op ander Wikimedia-projekte wees. Voel asseblief vry om hierdie bladsy soos nodig by te werk, of gebruik die kletsblad om groot wysigings voor te stel. هذه نصيحة. تعبر عن آراء وأفكار بعض مستخدمي ميتا-ويكي لكن قد لا تكون مدعومة على نطاق واسع. هذه ليست سياسة على ميتا-ويكي، لكنها قد تكون سياسة أو إرشاد في مشاريع ويكيميديا آخرى. لا تتردد في تحديث هذه الصفحة عن الحاجة، أو استخدم صفحة النقاش للتعديلات الجوهرية. Ovo je esej. Sadrži misli i ideje nekih korisnika Meta-Wikija, ali ne mora nužno da bude široko prihvaćen. Ovo nije pravilo na Meta-Wikiju, ali može da budi pravilo ili uputa na drugim projektima Wikipedije. Slobodno promijenite ovu stranu po potrebi ili koristite stranu za razgovor za veće promjene. Açò és un assaig. Expressa les opinions i idees d'alguns usuaris de Wikimedia o del Meta-Wiki però pot ser que no tingui un ampli suport. Això no és una política del Meta-Wiki, però pot ser política o guia d'estil en algun altre projecte Wikimedia. Sentiu-vos lliures d'actualitzar aquesta pàgina quan faci falta o utilitzeu la pàgina de discussió per a proposar-hi canvis d'importància. Dette er et essay. Det udtrykker visse Wikimedia- eller Meta-Wiki-brugeres holdninger og idéer, som ikke nødvendigvis deles af et flertal. Dette udgør ikke en politik på Meta-Wikien, men det kan være en politik eller et regelsæt på et andet Wikimedia-projekt. Du er velkommen til at ændre denne side efter behov, eller til at foreslå større ændringer på diskussionssiden. Dies ist ein Essay. Er drückt die Meinungen und Ideen einiger Meta-Wiki-Benutzer aus und wird eventuell nur von wenigen Benutzern unterstützt. Dies ist keine Richtlinie aus dem Meta-Wiki, kann aber Richtlinie oder Leitsatz in anderen Wikimedia-Projekten sein. Tu dir keinen Zwang an und aktualisiere diese Seite falls nötig, oder benutze die Diskussionsseite, um größere Veränderungen vorzuschlagen. This is an essay. It expresses the opinions and ideas of some wikimedians or Meta-Wiki users but may not have wide support. This is not policy on the Meta-Wiki, but it may be policy or guideline on other Wikimedia projects. Feel free to update this page as needed, or use the discussion page to propose major changes. Esto es un ensayo. Este texto expresa opiniones e ideas de algunos usuarios pero éstas no tienen un amplio consenso. Esto no es una política de Meta pero sí puede serlo en otros proyectos. Sea usted libre de actualizar esta página o use su página de discusión para proponer cambios mayores. Jen eseo. Ĝi esprimas la opiniojn kaj ideojn de iuj Vikipediistoj aŭ uzantoj de Meta-Wiki, sed eble ne havus vastan subtenon. Ĝi ne estas la regularo de Meta-Wiki, sed ĝi eble estas regularo en aliaj projektoj de Wikipedia. Laŭvole ĝisdatigu ĉi tiun paĝon laŭ bezono, aŭ uzu la diskuto-paĝon por proponi grandajn ŝanĝojn. این صفحه یک انشا است. این صفحه نظر و ایدهٔ برخی از کاربران فراویکی را بیان می‌کند اما ممکن است از حمایت گسترده‌ای برخوردار نباشد. این صفحه یک سیاست در فراویکی نیست، اما ممکن است سیاست یا رهنمودی در دیگر پروژه‌های ویکی‌مدیا باشد. آزادانه آن را به روز کنید، و برای تغییرهای بزرگ از صفحهٔ بحث استفاده کنید. Tämä on essee. Se ilmaisee joidenkin wikimedialaisten tai Meta-Wikin käyttäjien mielipiteitä tai ajatuksia, mutta sillä ei välttämättä ole laajaa kannatusta. Tämä ei ole Meta-Wikin käytäntö, mutta saattaa olla käytäntö tai ohje muissa Wikimedia-hankkeissa. Päivitä tätä sivua tarpeen mukaan tai ehdota isoja muutoksia keskustelusivulla. Ceci est un essai. Il exprime les opinions et les idées de certains contributeurs de Meta-Wiki, mais peut ne pas renconter le soutien des autres. Il n'est ni une règle ou une recommandation sur Meta-Wiki, mais peut l'être sur d'autres projets Wikimédia. N'hésitez pas à modifier cette page si besoin est, ou à proposer des changements majeurs sur la la page de discussion. Dit is in essay. It jout mieningen en ideeën wer fan guon meidoggers op Meta-Wiki, mar it is net sein dat eltsenien it der mei iens is. Dit is ek gjin offisjeel belied of rjochtline op Meta-Wiki, al kin dat wol sa wêze op oare Wikimedia-projekten. Fiel jo frij om dizze side wêr't dat nedich is bij te wurkjen of om grutte wizigings út te stellen op de oerlisside. עברית: דף זה הוא מאמר. הדף מבטא את הדעות והרעיונות של חלק מהמשתמשים במיזמי קרן ויקימדיה או במטא־ויקי, אך ייתכן שאין להם תמיכה נרחבת. דף זה הוא לא דף מדיניות במטא־ויקי, אך ייתכן שהוא דף מדיניות או דף הנחיות במיזמי ויקימדיה אחרים. הרגישו חופשיים לעדכן את הדף לפי הצורך, או השתמשו בדף השיחה להצעת שינויים משמעותיים. Ovo je esej. Sadrži mišljenja i ideje nekih korisnika Meta-Wikija, ali ne mora nužno biti široko prihvaćen. Ovo nije pravilo na Meta-Wikiju, ali može biti pravilo ili uputa na drugim Wikimedijinim projektima. Slobodno promijenite ovu stranicu po potrebi ili koristite stranicu za razgovor za predlaganje većih promjena. Ez egy esszé. Néhány Wikimédia- vagy Meta-Wiki-felhasználó véleményét fejezi ki, de lehet, hogy nem kapott széles körű támogatást. Nem irányelv a Meta-Wikin, de irányelv vagy útmutató lehet más Wikimédia-projektekben. Szabadon frissítheted ezt a lapot, ha szükséges, vagy használd a vitalapot, ha nagyobb változtatást szeretnél javasolni. Isto es un essayo. Illo exprime le opiniones e ideas de alcun wikimedianos o usatores de Meta-Wiki, ma pote non esser appoiate per le consenso general. Isto non es un politica del Meta-Wiki, ma pote esser un politica o directiva in altere projectos de Wikimedia. Sia libere de actualisar iste pagina in caso de necessitate, o usa le pagina de discussion pro proponer major alterationes. Ini adalah sebuah esai. Esai ini menyatakan pendapat dan gagasan dari beberapa Wikimediawan atau pengguna Meta-Wiki dan mungkin tidak didukung oleh komunitas secara meluas. Esai ini bukan kebijakan Meta-Wiki, tapi mungkin saja merupakan kebijakan atau pedoman di proyek-proyek Wikimedia lainnya. Silakan memperbarui halaman ini seperlunya, atau gunakan halaman pembicaraan untuk mengusulkan perubahan besar. Questo è un saggio. Esprime le opinioni e le idee di alcuni contributori di Meta-Wiki, ma può non incontrare il sostegno di altri. Non è una raccomandazione o una linea guida su Meta-Wiki, ma lo potrebbe essere su altri progetti Wikimedia. Non esitate a modificare questa pagina se occorre, o a proporre modifiche rilevanti nella sua pagina di discussione. この記事はエッセイです。何人かのメタウィキの利用者の意見と考えを表していますが、幅広い支持を得ているとは限りません。メタウィキの方針ではありませんが、他のウィキメディア・プロジェクトの方針かガイドラインであるかもしれません。必要に応じてこのページを遠慮なく編集し、大きな変更の提案にはこの記事のノートを使用してください。 이 문서는 수필입니다. 이것은 일부 사용자의 의견을 나타낸 것으로, 총의를 얻지 않았을 수 있습니다. 이 문서는 메타위키 정책은 아니지만, 다른 위키미디어 프로젝트에서 정책이나 지침으로 사용하고 있을 수도 있습니다. 이 문서를 편집하거나 주요 내용을 바꿔야 한다면 토론 문서를 이용해 주세요. Ова е есеј. Во него е искажано мислењето и идеите на извесни викимедијанци или корисници на Мета-Вики, но не значи дека тоа ужива широка поддршка. Ова не претставува правило на Мета-Вики, но може да виде правило или напатствие на други проекти на Викимедија. Најслободно менувајте ја страницава, или пак користете ја страницата за разговор ако сакате да предложите некои поголеми промени. हा एक निबंध आहे. यामध्ये काही विकिपीडिया सदस्यांची किंवा मेटा-विकि सदस्यांची मते आणि कल्पना मांडण्यात आल्या आहेत. त्यांना बहुतांशांचा पाठिंबा असेलच असे नाही. हा निबंध मेटा-विकिवरील धोरण मांडत नाही, पण इतर काही विकिमीडिया प्रकल्पांमध्ये हा निबंध धोरण किंवा मार्गदर्शक तत्व म्हणून वापरला जात असणे शक्य आहे. आवश्यक असेल तेव्हा विनासंकोच हे पान संपादित करा किंवा काही मोठे बदल सुचविण्यासाठी चर्चा पानाचा उपयोग करा. Ini adalah sebuah karangan. Ia menyatakan pendapat serta buah fikiran sesetengah ahli wikimedia atau pengguna Meta-Wiki tetapi tidak semestinya mempunyai sokongan yang meluas. Ini bukannya polisi di Meta-Wiki, tetapi ia mungkin merupakan polisi atau garis panduan di projek-projek Wikimedia lain. Silakan mengemaskini laman ini jika perlu, atau gunakan laman perbincangannya untuk mengusulkan perubahan-perubahan yang besar. Dit is een essay. Het geeft de meningen en ideeën van enkele gebruikers op Meta-Wiki weer, maar wordt waarschijnlijk niet door iedereen gesteund. Dit is ook geen officieel beleid of richtlijn op Meta-Wiki, maar dat kan het wel zijn op andere Wikimedia-projecten. Voel u vrij om deze pagina als nodig bij te werken, of om de overlegpagina te gebruiken om grote wijzigingen voor te stellen. Aquò es una redaccion. Exprimís las opinions e las idèas d'unes contributors de MetaWiki, mas pòt rencontrar pas lo sosten dels autres. Es pas una règla o una recomandacion sus MetaWiki, mas o pòt èsser sus d'autres projèctes Wikimèdia. Esitetz pas a modificar aquesta pagina se fa mestièr, o a prepausar de cambiaments màgers sus la la pagina de discussion. Ten artykuł jest esejem. Wyrażone są w nim opinie i pomysły niektórych wikimedian lub użytkowników Meta-Wiki, ale niekoniecznie mają szersze poparcie. Nie jest to zasada obowiązująca na Meta-Wiki, ale może to być zasada lub zalecenie na innych projektach Wikimediów. Możesz aktualizować tę stronę w razie potrzeby lub skorzystaj ze strony dyskusji artykułu aby zaproponować większe zmiany. Isto é um ensaio. Ele expressa as opiniões e idéias de vários wikimedianos ou usuários do Meta-Wiki mas pode não ter grande respaldo. Isto não é uma política no Meta-Wiki, mas pode ser uma política ou orientação em outros projetos da Wikimedia. Sinta-se livre para atualizar esta página quando necessário, ou use a página de discussão para propor alterações maiores. Acesta este un eseu. Aici sînt exprimate opiniile şi ideile unor utilizatori de pe Meta-Wiki, dar este posibil să nu aibă accepţiune majoritară. Aceasta nu are titlu de politică pe Meta-Wiki, dar poate fi politică sau ghid de reguli pe alte proiecte ale Wikipediei. Poţi să îmbunătăţeşti această pagină după cum crezi adecvat, sau să foloseşti pagina de discuţie pentru a propune schimbări majore. Это эссе. Оно выражает мнения и идеи некоторых пользователей Мета-вики, но может не пользоваться широкой поддержкой. Эссе не является правилом Мета-вики, но, вероятно, может быть правилом или руководством в других проектах Викимедиа. Вы можете обновлять эту страницу как считаете нужным или воспользоваться страницей обсуждения, чтобы предложить масштабные изменения. Ово је есеј. Садржи мисли и идеје неких корисника Мета-Викија, али не мора да буде широко прихваћен. Ово није правило на Мета-Викију, али може да буде правило или упутство на другим пројектима Викимедије. Не устручавајте се да промените ову страну по потреби или користите страну за разговор да бисте предложили веће промене. Den här sidan är en essä. Den är inte en av Wikimedias policys eller riktlinjer, och återspeglar kanske endast författarnas åsikter. Uppdatera sidan om det behövs eller diskutera innehållet på diskussionssidan. หน้านี้เป็นข้อเขียน แสดงถึงความคิดหรือไอเดียของผู้ใช้วิกิมีเดียหรือเมต้าวิกิบางคนซึ่งอาจจะยังไม่ได้รับการสนับสนุนกว้างอย่างขวางนัก นี่ไม่ใช่นโยบายบนเมต้าวิกิ, แต่อาจเป็นนโยบายหรือแนวทางของโครงการอื่น ๆ ของวิกิมีเดีย อย่ากังวลในการแก้ไขหน้านี้ตามที่คุณต้องการ หรือใช้หน้าอภิปรายในการเสนอการเปลี่ยนแปลงใหญ่ ๆ Đây là một bài luận. Nó thể hiện ý kiến và ý tưởng của một số thành viên Wikimedia hoặc Meta-Wiki và có thể không được đồng tình một cách rộng rãi. Đây không phải là quy định tại Meta-Wiki, nhưng nó có thể là quy định hoặc hướng dẫn tại các dự án khác của Wikimedia. Xin hãy thoải mái cập nhật trang này nếu cần, hoặc sử dụng trang thảo luận để đề xuất những thay đổi lớn. 这是一篇论述。它只表达了部分维基人或元维基使用者的意见及观点，此等观点可能未获得广泛支持。这不是元维基的政策，但可能是属于其他维基计划的政策或指引。如有需要，欢迎更新本页面，或在讨论页提出修改的建议。 这是一篇论述。它只表达了部分维基人或元维基使用者的意见及观点，此等观点可能未获得广泛支持。这不是元维基的政策，但可能是属于其他维基计划的政策或指引。如有需要，欢迎更新本页面，或在讨论页提出修改的建议。 這是一篇論述. 它只表達了部分維基人或元維基使用者的意見及觀點，此等觀點可能未獲得廣泛支持。 這不是元維基的政策，但可能是屬於其他維基計劃的政策或指引。如有需要，歡迎更新本頁面，或在討論頁提出修改的建議。 [translate]

This page documents problems with the proposal for Wikiversity as a separate Wikimedia wiki project from Wikibooks. The page will:

1. describe how the "Wikiversity" concept came to exist on Wikibooks
2. explain actions against the early Wikibooks:Wikiversity which led to a proposal for a separate Wikiversity project
3. criticise the overlap between Wikibooks and Wikiversity
4. note the lack of differences between Wikibooks and Wikiversity
5. claim the Wikiversity mission is a mission to duplicate Wikibooks
6. propose how "Wikiversity" can remain part of Wikibooks

Authors (add your name here if you edit this page):

1. Kernigh, created page
2. Chick Bowen, added section on the name "Wikiversity"

[edit] History of Wikiversity

The Wikibooks project started with the textbook-l mailing list. The idea was to create free textbooks for classrooms to use. A textbooks wiki started and its name became "Wikibooks" or "WikiBooks".

At some point Daniel Mayer (mav) sent this email proposing to change the name of the project from "WikiBooks" to "Wikiuniversity". Quote: I know that the name "Wikibooks" was thought of and promoted by me, but that was before we really knew where we wanted to go with this project (become an educational resource). Then Sanford Forte wrote a reply suggesting several other names. Though "WikiU" had some popularity, "Wikiversity" became the most common name.

However, when the project, formerly at "textbooks.wikipedia.org", obtained its own domain name, the name used was "wikibooks.org", as shown in the mail announcing the new domain name. Later, non-English content was transwikied away and the Wikibooks project now exists at http://en.wikibooks.org

Meanwhile, someone started a "Wikiversity" module at Wikibooks:Wikiversity. (You can also see the original Wikiversity front page posted by an anonymous user.) This Wikiversity started at 13 November 2004, more than a year after Wikibooks started, and at the Wikibooks wiki for textbooks.

Wikiversity divided itself into schools such as Wikibooks:Wikiversity:School of Philosophy. These schools feature:

• directory of participants like Wikibooks:Wikiversity:who is who in the philosophy department
• lecture material like Wikibooks:Wikiversity:Logic, part of the school of philosophy
• links to Wikimedia and external material like Wikibooks:Wikiversity:philosophy resources

The original goal was apparently to create a complete (accredited or not) university, though the current Wikiversity has the three features above.

[edit] Action against early Wikiversity

There were two actions against Wikiversity.

1. Someone involved with the German branch of Wikimedia started http://de.wikiversity.org. At 29 July 2005, User:Aya made a request for "en.wikiversity.org"; at 31 July 2005 User:Anthere moved the request to Talk:Requests for new languages#Requests for new Wikiversity languages, claiming that this project is not a Wikimedia Foundation project. The Wikibooks:Wikiversity page became protected from editing. At 4 August 2005, Wikibooks:User:Angela protested at Wikibooks:Talk:Wikiversity#Protection because the protected page claimed that the Wikimedia Foundation Board approved the protection, which Angela disputed. It emerged that "protect" meant to protect from deletion, not from editing, so Aya ended the protection from editing.
2. At 11 August 2005, Wikiversity went to Wikibooks:Wikibooks:Votes for deletion; the voting was later moved to Wikibooks:Wikibooks:Votes for deletion/Wikiversity. The argument was that Wikiversity was for original research and other non-textbook material, and should instead be a separate project like http://de.wikiversity.org ... at which point several users worried about loss of their work. Meanwhile the Wikiversity page at Meta became a proposal for a new Wikimedia project.

[edit] Wikiversity overlaps with Wikibooks

So now there was a proposal to create Wikiversity as a separate project. Wikibooks:Wikiversity started behaving as a project separate from Wikibooks. This is consistent with the idea that Wikiversity moves to a separate wiki.

In the case of a new wiki, all Wikibooks:Wikiversity pages would move away from Wikibooks. By convention, Wikimedia projects do not overlap. For example, Wikibooks does not contain a dictionary because Wiktionary has one.

However, it is difficult for one to read the current pages about Wikiversity, and then comprehend how or why Wikiversity is a separate project from Wikibooks. This page will examine quotes that describe Wikiversity, and show the problem of an overlap with Wikibooks.

First, here is how Wikibooks:Wikiversity:About describes the purpose of Wikiversity:

The main goal of Wikiversity is not just to impart knowledge but to facilitate learning.

However, is is not already what Wikibooks does? Textbooks at Wikibooks "impart knowledge" and also "facilitate learning". However, the Wikiversity:About page explains that Wikiversity will help students learn, and concludes its "Goals" section by stating:

Our goal, therefore, is to teach the material to whomever wants to learn it, to the best of our ability and theirs. We set out the materials needed to learn, and set up a framework for collaborative learning and teaching. It is the task of the self selected participants to work towards actual mastery of desired skills sufficient and necessary to pursue personal goals.

Wikibooks can already reach the goal in two ways:

1. Textbook modules have talk pages. A reader, unable to master a text, can use the talk page. The purpose of the talk page is exclusively to improve the text of each module, but any good answer to the reader's question would help improve the text.
2. The Wikibooks:Wikibooks:Forking policy allows forks of books for "different approaches". So if some students need a different approach, this can be handled by creating a separate book for that approach, or even by explaining multiple approaches in the same book. For example in calculus, some students might learn differentiation before integration while some learn integration before differentiation.

Thus, goal of Wikiversity seems to overlap much with Wikibooks. However, the next section on "Differences between Wikiversity and Wikibooks" attempts to resolve the problem of the overlap:

The major difference between the two is the difference between a course and a book. A course combines multiple methods of learning, to increase the chance of a student learning. These methods can include but are not limited to- wikiforums, lectures, homework, collaborative projects, discussions, student journals, etc. A book can be one part of a course. If all you want to do is write a long discourse on the subject matter, that is a book, and belongs on wikibooks. If you wish to do that and provide other methods of learning - that is a course. The book should *still* go on wikibooks, but the rest of the material and the framework for using the wikibook belongs on Wikiversity.

The next section argues that this is insufficient, that in most cases Wikibooks can already host "multiple methods of learning" as textbooks.

[edit] Few differences between Wikibooks and Wikiversity

Consider the list of potential Wikiversity content from Wikibooks:Wikiversity:About:

• Wikiforums/discussions - Wikibooks already allows discussions, but only if they potentially improve the text of the book. (This is a significant limitation.)
• Homework - Not only can textbooks include homework problems and answers, they can include other features like syllabi. There is no need to start a "Wikiversity" to host homework.
• Collaborative projects - The textbooks themselves are collaborative projects. Consider though, that some assigns a project, like "prove some theorem through induction", if everyone worked on this then it would be a textbook module. Whereas if the project was to provide an opinion to "support or refute this statement", the result would conflict with a common Wikimedia policy: "neutral point of view." You can see Jimbo Wales add a reference to "Wikimedia-wide" policy in a Wikibooks policy.
• Lectures - Because the lectures are uploaded to a wiki as text, they resemble textbook modules. Wikibooks:Wikiversity:Logic reads like a textbook module; in some lectures the only unique feature is the use of the word "I". Considering that anyone can edit any page, "I" is only an abstract term for all authors of that page. In short, lectures on a wiki are actually textbook material for Wikibooks.
• Student journals - If a reader of a book, for example Wikibooks:How To Assemble A Desktop PC, wants to comment on their experience, they can post to talk pages, or link to subpages of their user page (like Wikibooks:User:Kernigh/pound). (However, user pages should not be personal web pages or journals. Some Wikibookians want to limit the size of user pages.)

So the difference between a "course" at Wikiversity and a "book" at Wikibooks consists only of forums not for improving a book, and maybe projects which are non-neutral point of view. These are the differences that should be discussed when discussing whether to create a wiki separate from Wikibooks.

The Wikibooks:Wikiversity:About pages does mention a second difference from Wikibooks:

The other major difference is length. On Wikibooks, a how-to on a video game is acceptable material- the walkthrough of GTA:SA is fairly popular. That works as a book. It does not work as a course- there just isn't enough material in any one game to run a course.

At first, the "length" requirement seems arbitrary. Yes, there is a Wikibooks:Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas book. What if someone wanted to discuss the game (without improving the book)? What if someone wants to create an essay osupporting or refuting an argument about this game? Wikiversity, with its "forums" and "collaborative projects", could provide both. If Wikiversity actually requires GTA:SA to be part of a larger "course", then that is actually only a minor difference from Wikibooks.

However, perhaps this paragraph was more revealing. There is currently a debate at Wikibooks:Wikibooks:Game manual guidelines over whether books for games, including video games, are acceptable at Wikibooks. An argument against books like the GTA:SA book is that these books are entertaining, not academic.

Yet Wikibooks (whether or not it includes the GTA:SA book) was originally set up with an academic purpose, to provide textbooks for topics such as "physics" and "organic chemistry". It might be that some user thought that Wikibooks, with its video game strategy guides, was insufficiently academic, and this made necessary the separate Wikiversity project.

[edit] A mission to duplicate Wikibooks

Consider this quote from Wikiversity#Mission:

The development and cataloging of tests, teaching materials that go beyond the scope of Wikibooks such as slides and videos, complete courses, and more. All this information must be presented from a neutral point of view and represent the current state of scientific research.

Most of these materials are not beyond the scope of Wikibooks. Textbooks can describe complete courses. There should not be a reason for Wikibooks to exclude media like slides or videos; Wikipedia and Wikinews feature media (though mostly audio). If Wikiversity enforces "neutral point of view", then that bans some of the ideas for collaborative projects by students. The remaining projects would probably be textbook modules or encyclopedia articles!

The other part of the "Wikiversity Mission" is:

A framework within which members of the community can actually take courses online.

This page interprets this quote to refer to forums and user profiles, which is actually the only feature that Wikiversity would provide, if it discards "collaborative projects". Wikiversity would not actually provide "lectures" or "homework" as that is already in the jurisdiction of Wikibooks.

[edit] If Wikiversity becomes a separate wiki

Suppose that Wikiversity becomes a separate wiki from Wikibooks. In this process, then, would the "lecture" material currently at Wikibooks:Wikiversity move away from Wikibooks? This would be the competition between Wikiversity and Wikibooks: Wikiversity would be developing lecture material, while Wikibooks developed textbook material, with no actual distinction between lectures and textbooks.

Both projects actually make wiki material. Wikis contain texts. In the context of Wikiversity and Wikibooks, these are texts for teaching and learning. They are textbooks, and calling them "lectures" is only a matter of formatting and vocabulary, not content.

Note: The Wikiversity/Modified project proposal attempts to distinguish lectures from textbooks.

[edit] Keeping Wikiversity at Wikibooks

Recall this page had described the existing content of Wikibooks:Wikiversity as such:

• directory of participants like Wikibooks:Wikiversity:who is who in the philosophy department
• lecture material like Wikibooks:Wikiversity:Logic, part of the school of philosophy
• links to Wikimedia and external material like Wikibooks:Wikiversity:philosophy resources

However, lecture material such as the "Logic" module linked here is best described as textbook material.

Wikibooks already includes a "directory of participants" to a limited extent; several of its books have lists of authors, including links to their user pages. Wikibooks could simply in addition maintain lists of readers (who easily become authors by making one minor edit to the book). Wikibooks can certainly include links to Wikimedia and external material; look at Wikibooks:Guide to UNIX/Commands/File System Utilities, which features template-generated boxes of external links, while Wikibooks:Guide to UNIX/Commands links to a Wikipedia article. There are larger external-link projects also, such as Wikibooks:Freeware:Directory and Wikibooks:Internet Server Directory.

[edit] Create Wikiversity anyway?

These seem to be the only features that Wikiversity would provide that Wikibooks does not:

1. a forum for discussion not specifically for improving a textbook module
2. a place for projects of non-neutral point of view, such as essays

Note that this list of two additional features excludes most of what is currently proposed for Wikiversity, because most of what is currently proposed for Wikiversity would compete with Wikibooks.

Of the two goals, goal (1), a forum for discussion, is more interesting. What if, instead of a community of textbook authors in discussion, we wanted a community of students - textbook readers, in discussion? There are some methods, short of creating a new Wikimedia project, for this:

• Open the textbook discussion pages to wider discussion, in contrast to the existing policy at Wikibooks:Wikibooks:What is Wikibooks#Wikibooks is not a soapbox which directs one to "Usenet" or "blog".
• Encourage readers to discuss Wikibooks material using Usenet and blogs.

There is much room on Wikibooks talks pages currently, though they are paired to specific modules, which might inhibit wider discussion (such as collective reading). Obviously neither Usenet nor blogs are located at Wikimedia wikis.

This quote from Robert Scott Horning, in a foundation-l post proposing a separate Wikiversity project, comes to interest:

If approved, a transwiki to en.wikiversity.org from en.wikibooks will begin. This will be a complicated process, and there is going to be some arguing about what parts need to stay on Wikibooks and what parts need to be moved. This may get ugly simply because the distinction really hasn't been in place so far.

Done correctly, this transwiki creates a new "Wikiversity" project, but leaves most of the current Wikibooks:Wikiversity at Wikibooks where it belongs.

[edit] Courses duplicate textbooks

In general, Wikiversity need not contain "courses"; textbooks at Wikibooks can have multiple approaches, can include syllabi and homework. The textbooks at Wikibooks are collaborative projects which one can discuss and improve, thus imparting information to students and facilitating the students' learning.

This seems reasonable, as Wikibooks:Wikiversity is already hosted at Wikibooks, and Wikibooks already contains participants, links, and textbook material (which is similar enough to lecture material).

"Wikiversity" can exist as a second name for Wikibooks, as it was originally intended. "Wikiversity" can provide participants, links, and material to Wikibooks, and to divide Wikibooks material into schools such as "School of Philosophy". (Wikibooks has not much need for a second name, though, which leaves the possibility of transferring the name "Wikiversity" to a new project if that project did not duplicate Wikibooks.) "Wikiversity" participants can read textbooks, discuss them on the talk page, and use the results to improve the textbooks.

If Wikimedia needs a wiki for material that is non-neutral point of view, then one should change the Wikiversity proposal to specify this.

Oppose the creation of a separate Wikimedia project wiki for Wikibooks:Wikiversity.

[edit] Problems with the name "Wikiversity"

Some Wikimedia-project editors, particularly those with an academic background, have expressed concern about the name "Wikiversity" and its similarily to the word "university" (a word that appears frequently on Wikiversity proposals). The word actually has a legal status in the United States (which is where Wikimedia servers are housed. The Office of Degree Authorization for the State of Oregon, which has become the chief authority on unaccredited universities in the US, has this to say about it:

To be authorized to use the term "university," a school must offer bachelor's degrees together with graduate or first professional degrees or be part of an organization that constitutes a formal consortium of schools so authorized. No exceptions are allowed, including religious exemptions.

Non-degree-granting "universities" are generally regarded with a dim view in both academic and government circles. Wikibooks offers much educational material, which is fine and good. But a separate project called "Wikiversity" and using the word "university" in its promotional material might be seen as misleading if not actually illegal.

[edit] Links

• Wikiversity/Modified project proposal
• Some Wikiversity pages that appear not to be textbooks/lectures, nor directories of particpants, nor collections of links:
  • Wikibooks:Wikiversity:Learning
  • Wikibooks:Interventionism in Latin America During the Cold War: US and USSR
  • Shingle and Dean Boudewijnse
• Wikicities:c:Collaboration:Wikiversity another view of Wikiversity
• Proposals for new projects#Wikiversity