Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Lombard Wikipedia

From Meta

Contents 1 Proposal for closing Lombard wikipedia 2 Second proposal 2.1 Absence of a Lombard language 2.2 Artificial language used 2.3 Dispotic behaviour 2.4 Absolute anti-italian attitude 2.5 Small size 3 Close 4 Keep 4.1 arbitray sectio nbraek for easier editing 5 Radical proposal 6 Comments 6.1 Some misunderstandings 6.2 I tell you something 6.3 Note by uninvolved user 6.4 Facts, Literature, Useful links, Quotations, etc. 6.5 My thoughts 6.6 Can the Lombardists become good Wiki-citizens? 6.7 Putting things into perspective 6.7.1 Some interesting links to improve the perspective 7 A written tradition 8 I'm sick of this 9 How is the procedure? 10 And while we are talking 11 For those willing to get documented 12 Does a common Lombard language exist? 13 General remarks on minor languages 14 Are the attacking italianists good Wiki-citizens? 15 Brainstorming - Why do we need a Lombard Wikipedia? What are our expectations? 16 Road Map 17 What's gonna happen? 18 Is this a language of education? 19 IHT: In Italy, a winter of discontent 20 More suggested readings 21 Why are the italians destroying the LMO Wiki? 22 Link_FA inflation

[edit] Proposal for closing Lombard wikipedia

What's this? Now someone simply blanked my vote This is deceit.--clamengh 13:42, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

You're right. It was my fault. I restored your vote (BTW, only one vote). Please excuse my bad mistake. --Remulazz 13:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Mmh, please avoid cancel my vote as well--Vladimir1 10:36, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

• To the kind attention of ladies and gentlemen reading this page: please take a look at the user page of the above user: lmo:User:Codice1000.lmo, where reasons for banning him are clear. English translation are available upon request. A vote took place as well.--clamengh 15:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

---

[edit] Second proposal

I ask for the closure of the Lombard Wikipedia. I think it is a strange monster, maintained in an artificial life by a very small group of users that imposes its POV not only on the contents, but even on the language used.

I know that another request like this was made more than one year ago, without success. It was labeled as vandalism, and I still have not understood why. I'm trying to ask again only because I think that conditions are now worse than then, and lmo.wiki has not the requested characteristics for a Wikimedia project.

Arguments in support the closure of Lombard wikipedia (lmo.wiki):

• absolute absence of a Lombard language;
• as a result, artificial language used;
• dispotic behaviour of its administrator;
• absolute anti-italian attitude;
• very small real size.

[edit] Absence of a Lombard language

There are no valid sources stating the existence af a common, unified, standard Lombard language. All linguistic studies about lombard linguistics have always examinated every dialect separately. For example, the Milanese dialect has its own traditions, literature, dictionaries, theater works, and so the Ticinese dialect (spoken in Switzerland), the Brianzöö (Brianza, Brianzolo in Italian), the Bergamasque (the one of the mountains, the one of the city, and the one of the lowland), Brescian, Cremasque, Laghée (used in the upper Como Lake) and so on for all the (at least a dozen) remaining dialect and variants of the Lombard linguistic family, spreaded from upper Valtellina in the extreme northeast to Apennines in the southwest.

Even the western/eastern distinction used on lmo.wiki, at least for the main page (western and eastern), is artificial and doesn't express all the variability in the Lombard dialects. It simplifies too much.

If I remember well, some months ago the Akan edition of Wikipedia was closed because [...]is now considered a family of languages, and not a single language. (List_of_Wikipedias#Deprecated.2C_moved_and_other). Akan is identified with a unique ISO code (ak), like Lombard, but, despite this, is not a single language. And so is Lombard.

[edit] Artificial language used

A wikipedia edition, even the smallest one, needs some service pages; if Lombard is a melting pot of well-identified dialects, which one is to be used? In the beginning of this edition, a particular Western Lombard dialect was used, probably an insubric one (maybe the dialect of Como or of upper Brianza area).

The real masters of the Lombard wikipedia, Clamengh and 10caart, aware of this weakness, decided, emarginating and/or blocking all their oppositors, to create ex novo a strange Koiné Lumbarda (or Koiné Lombarda, I can't remember well), and to adopt it as a kind of lingua franca. (see here)

Clamengh and 10caart are both fans of Catalan and Occitan languages, and so they took the decision to make Lombard converge on them. Since then, all their effort were aiming to create this koiné with lot of Catalan and Occitan influences, on grammar and words. He invented lot of words, never used or heard in any corner of Lombardy or Canton Ticino:

• teratremul instead of teremott (earthquake, in Catalan terratrèmol)
• üsüari instead of uteent or utent (user, in Catalan usuari)
• dia instead of dì or dé (day, in Catalan dia): concerning this word, I can report a brief dialogue [2] between them, in which Clamengh was enthusiastic for having found, in a small poesy written in the dialect of Mantua, dating back to the half of sixteenth century (!!!!!!!), the word dia. Here Clamengh says to 10caart: ...we could use dia instead of dì or dé, to unify the language... What? We could use? One more proof they're inventing a language, there on lmo.wiki.

• Aquest tres mots provenen del llatí, llengua parlada fa uns 2.000 anys a la regió italiana del “latio”:

• • Terratrèmol: del llatí terra-ae: terra, i tremo tremolar.
  • Usuari: del verb llatí utor, d'origen semblant a l'anglès user.
  • Dia: del llatí dies-diei: dia, d'origen semblant a l'anglès day, encara que en aquesta llengua la i (o y) del mig a passat al final, intercanviant la seva posició amb la a.

• No es gens estrany que altres llengües romàniques, inclús aquelles que no ho són, comparteixin mots amb altres llengües romàniques. Inclús es possible que l'origen de moltes llengües europees sigui l'indoeuropeu, una llengua anterior a totes les actuals i que s'hauria parlat a llocs tant distants com la Gran Bretanya i l'Índia, o que per qualque motiu que no coneixem ha emparentat aquests dos llocs per medi de la llengua. Pérez 21:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Clamengh stated once he had the dream of writing a wikipedia in Cisalpine tongue; well, all the dialects and languages of northern Italy are closely related among them and, at the same time, they are quite far from standard Italian. But they are not the same language, neither a standard Cisalpine tongue has never existed. Clamengh aims to this. I think he achieved some results so far, provided that only some days ago he said to an anonymous user [3] to avoid changing in the ortography of an article. No lombard can understand this message, made with 20% a western lombard dialect, 20% an eastern one, 30% Catalan and 30% Occitan. Strange ortography, never seen in the literature. Who is him to invent a way to write a not existing language, and adopt it? Where are we? On the Clamengh wikipedia? Are we writing in Clamenghese language, writing it with the Clamengh standard?

Just have a look at the banner for this fundraising (here). What language is it? I was born in Lombardy, I grew up in Lombardy, and I have never seen such a language. It is so strange that another Lombard user has asked for more information. [4]

I do agree with you on the banner point and I remember asking to change that banner some time ago. I believe in a Lombard Wikipedia and not in a Catalombard Wikipedia (although personally I love both Catalonia and the Catalan language...).--Kemmótar 01:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, nobody but them has never heard speaking or seen writing this "Lombard", and nobody but them has not even heard speaking about its creation. I think to Esperanto, Volapük or even Sindarin or Quenya in Tolkien's world. We are assisting to the creation of a new artificial language, "on air" from Lombard wikipedia. Stay tuned, guys. Stay tuned.

They, together with Belinzona, stated this officially, by creating a category) and a template) in which they say they support the creation of a Lombard koiné. Creation? Of what?

The creation of a common Western+Eastern Lombard koiné is utopic (NB: this does not mean that the Eastern and Western L. are necessarily not mutually intelligible.--Kemmótar 19:33, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Wonderful. But why do you say this only now? They're studying this since fall 2006. --Remulazz 14:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

On Wikipedia projects, original researches about contents are strictly forbidden: so, if possible, more strictly forbidden should be the original researches about the language used to write it.

---

A little updating: here, Clamengh e Belinzona are discussing about the name of the language for the interwiki link (!) and about the word to use for the logo (!). ... la encyclopedia libra + l'encyclopédie livre, par nümm a saress mej, dapress ul puunt da vista diachrònigh, la encyclopédia livra, ch'ij elimina tüti i possibilitaa da conflit tra da nümm (W vs E, encilopedía vs. ensiclopedéa etc.)

Not considering this melting pot of dialects and the plural in s (interwikis), never seen in Lombardy, I would like to point out the words used here:

1. par nümm a saress mej, dapress ul puunt da vista diachrònigh, la encyclopédia livra ==> For us it would be better, from the diachronic point of view, la encyclopedia livra. For us? It would be better? What are they doing there? Livra? Who has ever heard livra to say free?
2. ... ch'ij elimina tüti i possibilitaa da conflit tra da nümm (W vs E, encilopedía vs. ensiclopedéa etc.). ==> ... that eliminates every chance of conflicts among us. Chances of conflict? Then it's true that Lombardy is divided into (at least) two linguistic branches.

One more proof that Lombardy has different languages, with chances of conflicts.

[edit] Dispotic behaviour

Clamengh and 10caart have been keeping a constant, steady behaviour aiming to eliminate every users had a different way to think lmo.wiki.

Have a look at the block log (lmo:Special:Ipblocklist).

Just some examples:

1. His first work, the blocking of user Codice1000. Blocked infinite only because he expressed some critics to this way to manage the languages and inventing new words. I know he committed some small vandalisms, that anyway usually deserve only a short block.

   Not al all. This bloch was decided mainly for racist statement against souther Italian people. Please check user page.

   No, I think you're wrong. Check out better. --Remulazz 15:23, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   Moreover this user began with strong abuses towards other users.

2. Clamengh blocked infinite (accuse: vandalism) the IP 84.222.16.56.84 only because he dared to put, in some unsourced articles, a template stating Quell articol o sezion chì el pò vegh denter ricerch originaj o robb minga cert. Per cortesia jutii Wikipedia mettendegh denter i riferiment. Varda la pagina de discussion per savè. (This article or section can contain original researches or not demonstrated statement. Please help Wikipedia by inserting references. Have a look to the talk page to know how to do.). I still haven't understood where is the vandalism.

   The sources were explicitely stated in the article! This was a disruptive behaviour.--clamengh 13:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   No. You're wrong. There were no sources. A simple look at the page history is enough. --Remulazz 15:23, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

3. Same sad show with the IP 213.140.6.109; two edits, trying to make people understand that there are no certainties about writing in Lombard. Infinite.
4. Again, IP 84.222.8.141

I must say that the only right block is mine. I began my adventure on the Wiki world right on lmo.wiki. Only some months have been enough to realize how false and empty was the project, as organized in that way, and how fragile were its bases. I had a bad reaction to their provocations. Clamengh and 10caart refused to answer to all our questions (our is referred to every people that have expressed doubts about this way to operate, and they are much more than the three users that defended it), and I fell in the trap. No complaints, it was my fault. I have to say, anyway, that I had a behaviour like this only there on lmo.wiki, given the unbreathable atmosphere. I am active on it.wiki, where I have never had a problem and am sysop since November 8.

Congratulations. Probably that's the ritgh place where you can work. You also abused th whole Lombard community as reported at your user page.--clamengh 13:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

You're right. Provided that you are the only Lombard community. And please, don't strike everything. It's not a nice thing. --Remulazz 13:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC) PS This may be considered as vandalism.

[edit] Absolute anti-italian attitude

I really don't know why, but on Lombard wikipedia speaking Italian is strongly deprecated. Even if a user can only speak Italian, he/she is strongly invited to translate his/her post. This doesn't sound very wiki to me. Remember that every native Lombard speaker can speak Italian. Owing to the absence of a real community, this form of racism has penetrated well deep into lmo.wiki.

It is a quite curious thing, given that Clamengh and 10caart both stated that they were born in Italy. Moreover, Clamengh had once a dialogue in a perfect standard Italian at the friulian wikipedia ([5]). Here he apologize to write in Italian, before writing in Italian. Maybe he forgot the language? No... nobody can wholly forget a language... it's like riding a bycicle, once you learned, you can not forget. That's greater than my understanding capability.

Please prove this.--clamengh 13:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

fro, mariorix cjau a tu"cj ma è mai possibile non capire???macché attitudine antitaliana, in quanti chat, gruppi e forum ho partecipato in cui si invita a scrivere o ciattare nella lingua di riferimento. Provatevi a scivere in esperanto nel sito in ido, o usaare un'antra lingua nelle chat esperantiste. Ma non sono posizioni anti o pro, sono l'invito a sfruttare le poche occasioni offerte dal web. chiaro,quello che vedo qui è un atteggiamento di disamore per le lingue, per i popoli, per la creatività e tutto ciò è fatto da nazionalisti italiani e difeso persino da meravigliose persone scandinave. a me non stanno in antipatia gl'italiani, anzi amo ogni angolo d'Italia, ma mi stanno sulle cose i nazionalisti arroganti che qui ci sguazzano.Sono cose che ho già vissuto in Russia e in Spagna contro i popoli minori. Ho dovuto difendere asturiani e aragonesi dagli ipernazionalisti catalani (nonostante che stavo dando la vita per la loro terra). Idem contro i nazionalisti occitani (di Fontan) contro i piemontesi. Dei turchi contro gli armeni, di bulgari contro i turchi, ecc Che cosa devo dire degli italiano di destra e di sinistra contro i Rom solo perché Rom, e nessuno dice niente.Altro che italiani brava gente, per me sono mignottoni come tutti gli altri popoli del mondo e si vede in quella porcheria che sto subendo come Lombardo. (come insubro e come orobico). Quello che state facendo a Clamengh, e spettegolando su ogni parola detta o non detta sul sito friulano sa da chiacchiera di portineria. non da una cosa seria come wiki.Scusarsi perché si deve scrivere in una lingua piutosto che un'altra, l'ho fatto anch'io tantissime volte. Tante volte non ho voluto usare l'italiano,l'inglese (come in questa occasione) per polemica, per provocazione, e allora?Nel mio passato libertario, non mi si dica che sono razzista. E' piuttosto razzista che dice che la mia etnia non esiste. Lo farei per qualsiasi etnia. Così facendo state minando l'esistenza di tutte le lingue ed etnie d'Italia, dal Piemonte alla Sicilia.Che hanno gli stessi problemi (perché tutto il mondo ha gli stessi problemi). Già anche il piemontese ha varietà emolto divergenti. La lingua dell'autore del Fu Mattia Pascal era la linga di Girgenti/Agrigento e ne ha persino scritto una tesi. Diversa evidentemente dalla lingua siciliana. E allora?? Scagliarsi contro il sito Siciliano? Ma veramente, state scherzando?

[edit] Small size

I am well aware that Lombard wikipedia has now more than 100.000 articles, but I must point out that the great majority are only nearly empty, bot generated stubs (check out the Depth value on our list_of_Wikipedias).

lmo.wiki had some period of dramatic boom, like a volcano, during the last spring, summer, and eventually this November, when the total number of articles grew from some thousand to twenty, thirty, fifty, eighty and eventually one hundred thousand. After this, no signs of life different from some interwiki bot.

So, IMHO, very few real damage will come from a closure.

I apologize for mistakes, but I am only en-2. For any communication, please contact me here. Thank you, --Remulazz 16:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Close

Close I have been living in Lombardy, in Milan, for nearly 40 years: I assure you that a unique language called "Lombard" do not exist. Maybe we can start a milanese or bergamasco wikipedia. --DracoRoboter 17:41, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The question is settled by ISO: 639-3 lmo is for LOMBARD LANGUAGE--clamengh 14:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

E se io (in quanto lombardo, per quanto acquisito) me ne fregassi dell'ISO? E sopratutto mi spieghi perché gran parte dei milanesi madre lingua che conosco non capiscono il bergamasco? (o meglio lo capiscono quanto capiscono lo spagnolo) In novecento di Bertolucci la cosa è spiegata benissimo. --DracoRoboter 16:33, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

come ho già detto, i miei nonni di Inzago e i miei attuali parenti pensano che al di là dell'Adda si parli un'altra lingua diversa come il piemontese sta all'insubro, al di là del Sesia. Ma cosa vuol dire. è chiaro che tra orobico, insubro e piemontese d'è un legame culturale, storico e una continuità geografica. Se si vuole cercare di unificare queste lingue così come il limusino e il provenzale. cosa ci sarebbe di così negativo? Sai come è nata la lingua unificata Aragonese? (divisa tra influenze castigliane, catalane e guascone). Scegliendo i vocaboli più divergenti delle ultime due lingue e cercando di non attingere al castigliano. Ebbene ora questa cervellotica koinai viene scritta e parlata. Giornaletti (la Fuella ad es.9 si trova anche nelle edicole di Saragozza!. Ma forse era meglio non dirlo. Poi vi spiegherò come si sono formate lingue come l'Euska batua, così non dormirete di notte. Provate a toccare il sito basco...E l'Azteco (il nahuatl) guardate i neologismi utilizzati nel vocabolario online. La vostra è una battaglia che in Spagna verrebbe presa come nazionalista. el mariorix

Wikipedia non inventa, e non fa battaglie politiche (non in questo senso almeno, in altri sensi sì ma questo discorso ci porterebbe fuori tema) quindi lo so anch'io, pur non essendo un esperto, che tutte le lingue sono in qualche modo un'invenzione. Il punto è wikipedia interviene solo dopo che l'invenzione sia stata fatta. (anche se è dubbio ci riesca: ad esempio "wikificare" probabilmente diventerà prima o poi una parola da dizionario italiano). --DracoRoboter 01:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

1. Strongly support to close I was born in Lombardy (close to Milan) and I work in Bergamo. AFAIK, such a language doesn't exist. Besides, lmo.wiki is deeply involved in politic (they're exploiting an encyclopedia to spread separatist ideas). Jollyroger 19:04, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

   Please prepare to prove your absurd accusations.--clamengh 14:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

2. Strongly support to close I live in Tessin but this Wikipedia is not workable. --Ilario 19:05, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

   No motivations at all: simple racism--clamengh 14:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   For people from Tessin is not workable, I use the dialect of Tessin not other one because I don't know other dialect, is not a position of racism. IMHO this is not my Wikipedia. --Ilario 15:23, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   I also use a variety of 'koiné ticinesa' and I am not confortable with some of the orthographic or lexical solution drawing towards Catalonia, if you see what I mean. -- Although Catalan and Lombard are closer related than Italian and Lombard or Italian and Catalan, for centuries there has benn little cultural contact between the two areas and the languages have evolved their own ways, also ortographically. I have thought many times of the possibility of having a Ticinese Wikipedia instead of a Lombard Wikipedia: this would solve many problems (for example the East-West issue). The standard forms used could be those of the koiné (i.e. the lemmata in the LSI published by CDE in Bellinzona). But is it natural to exclude some varieties on the Italian side of the border that are so close to the koiné of Tessin? Think creatively, reform the Lombard Wikipedia, if necessary even change its name and linguistic content, but don't close it!--Kemmótar 12:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

3. Close I was born in Somma Lombardo (nice, isn't it?) and graduated at the University of Insubria but I would not dare write a single word in a language that I can't recognise as my motherlanguage: that Koinè is not spoken in my county. --Xaura 19:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

   You are welcome to contribute in your dialect, AS EXPLICITELY STATED EVERYWHERE IN LOMBARD WIKIPEDIA. Again racism.

   Racism from lombard people (like me and xaura) to them-self? Are you kiddin' us or what? --DracoRoboter 11:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

4. Close. From "request for new languages" (deleted page), 2 years ago: "[..] even though SIL, ISO and someone else states that Lombard is a language, I, living in Lombardia!, know very well that Lombard doesn't exist; we've Milanese in Milan, Bresciano in Brescia and so on, but not a unique language. So please stop with this nonsense projects! Frieda 10:40, 19 November 2005 (UTC) ". I didn't change my mind. Frieda 19:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

   The question is settled by ISO: 639-3 lmo is for LOMBARD LANGUAGE--clamengh 14:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   Sì? Vorrei una grammatica in lombardo da consultare per controllare quello che scrivete e la corretta sintassi, me la sai indicare? Dimenticavo: se la lingua esiste, come asserisce l'ISO, perché l'enciclopedia è scritta in due lingue diverse? Frieda 14:37, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   If you are genuinely interested, you can use these:

   Lurà, F. 1987, Il dialetto del mendrisiotto, Mendrisio-Chiasso, Ediz. Unione di Banche Svizzere

   Nicoli, F. 1983, Grammatica Milanese, Busto Arsizio, Bramante Editori

   They are a bit difficult to find, but large libraries hould have them.

   They describe specific Western varieties, but practically very close to the Western koiné. In particulr, the first one describes varieties very close to the koiné used in Ticino--Kemmótar 21:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   Uè, barlafus, el mendriot l'é propi istess del milanes... ma di no stupidat. Are grammar of milanese and mendrisiotto not Lombard grammar, please be fair. --DracoRoboter 21:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

5. Close I've always lived in Lombardy (near Monza) and this people, instead of writing an encyclopedia, seem to use lmo.wiki as a stage to spread their political ideas. Ideas that are common in this area (but does not represent the majority of the people, anyway). However, I think that lmo.wiki is trying to spread this message: if this ideas are supported by a Wikipedia, they should be supported by everybody. Really far from any Wikimedia vision. --Giac! - (Tiago is here) 19:31, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

   Prepare to prove your absurde accusations.--clamengh 14:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   I said seem. Anyway, things like

   The idea of 'national territory' is debatable, as it implies that Italy be considered a 'nation'. Italy is surely a sovereign state, but whether it should be considered also a nation or not is a completely different matter. (found here)

   strengthen my opinion. --Giac! - (Tiago is here) 09:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

   I don't think that statement should be understood as sympathising with Lega Nord or something like that, because it was not even written by an Italian or by somebody living in Italy.--Siri68 01:36, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

6. support for closure, looks like the only reason that keeps running this Wikipedia is to pursue a precise political agenda. --Brownout^(msg) 19:37, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
7. Close - the mentioned behaviours are really heavy and this suggests at least a complete reset of the lmo.wiki. I think Wikimedia projects must not be stumentalized by anyone or used to create some kind of new language (no original research please)! --Marcok 19:36, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

   Prepare to prove your absurde accusations about politics. Nobody creates anything, as everyboduìy can simply check directly. Everyone writes in its own dialect, including koinés, if already existing and documented.

8. Strongly support (agree with people in this section). --Fabexplosive The archive man 19:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
9. Support I was born and still live in Somma Lombardo and the dialect here is very used, especially Milanese. "Lombard" does not exist since in this county there are lot of dialects different for pronunciation or common words. I agree with DracoRoboter to start a 'milanese' or someone else related to "lombard dialects" that they will have more sense than "Lombard". HelLViS69 20:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
10. Support. Remulazz's report is really shocking. They can create a Wiki and do what they want with it, but not with Wikipedia...--Jaqen 20:08, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

    The question is settled by ISO: 639-3 LMO is for LOMBARD LANGUAGE.--clamengh 14:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

11. support per Remulazz --.snoopy. AKA dario vet · (talk) 20:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

    Close - there may be a small bit of useful content, but most of it is the show of a small minority of people who try to create a Lombard language from scratch. I'm from Bergamo, but Eigua is not bergamasco at all. Cruccone 20:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)Striking my vote, things are moving and lmo.wiki deserves a chance --Cruccone 12:53, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

    Check Tiraboschi's dictionary. YOU make original research. Ask also 10caart, whi is mother tongue.--clamengh 14:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    On this dictionary ater is translated as aqua (most common form) or àigua. here again you can find aqua as word for water. Eigua is Ligurian, not Bergamasch. Sorry I haven't got Tiraboschi hereCruccone 22:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

12. Close. Quote Remulazz.--Senpai 20:27, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
13. Close In order to support their geopolitical vision they have narrowed the boundaries of the territory in which the Lombard dialect is spoken to make them coincide with Lombardy --Tanarus 20:33, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

    Prepare to prove this accusation and to stand in front of an arbitration commitee. This is simply false--clamengh 14:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    clamengh le minacce falle sulla wiki lombrada please. Chissa perchè nella stessa il trentino non vien incluso nella definizione di lingua lombarda? --Tanarus 19:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

14. Close. lom.wiki is a mountain of waste.. --EdoM 20:37, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
15. Close it please. It's all true. --Cotton 20:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
16. Close Quote Remulazz...azz...azz. :P --DarkAp89 20:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
17. Close I lived in Milan, Como and Varese in several different periods of my life. I am not a Lombard native speaker, but I easily recognised some differences in languages and terms. I was able to retrieve some common words and rules (those cities are far less than 100 km each other), but common words I found, seem very different from ones I saw on present day Lombard wiki.--EH101 21:17, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
18. Close, obviously. --Remulazz 21:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
19. Close for all the reasons well reported by Remulazz. --Paginazero - Ø 21:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC) (born 40+ years ago and living in Lombardy since then)
20. Close I agree with Remulazz. --Archenzo 22:15, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
21. Close if WMF aims to host language-based, collaborative projects only. Please see the site's bilingual home page, alternating daily (click on Lumbaart Ucidentaal / Lombart Oriental for a complete skin change), the bilingual sitenotice and this bug request about duplicating the Portal (an possibly also the Category) namespace. Those are clear statements that lmo.wiki is hosting content in (at least) two fundamentally different, and incompatible languages. Also, this bug request gives some rather scary hints about the largely automated process that created the site as it is now. --Lp 23:08, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
22. Close, repeated attempts to instrumentally use this project for political (separatist) purposes; and, at a formal-technical level, I wholly agree with Lp about his remarks --Gianfranco 23:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
23. Close, do not let them use Wikimedia resources for their own personal project. Ary29 07:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
24. Close - as per Remulazz...--Cometstyles 13:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
25. Close. This wikipedia is a shame. Wiki is cooperation, this one is a despotic oligarchy. Jalo 15:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
26. Close. I entirely quote Lp and Yekrats analysis. --Pap3rinik 16:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
27. Close. --Leoman3000 16:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
28. Close. I can't understand the sense of lmo.wikipedia. Thousands of stubs of municipalities, like Volapuk Wikipedia... What a lombard Wikipedia that hasn't got the article of Lombardy! Rastrojo 16:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    A very good point, but still not a viable reason for closing the Lmo.Wikipedia project!--Kemmótar 18:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    The fact that Lombard does not exist, and lmo.wiki requires at least two main pages, is a viable reason? --Remulazz 20:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

29. Close I think that lmo.wikipedia isn't a real wikipedia because all it's a stubs of municipalities or numbers for example 12.040.000. And I think, do we want this? --Carles 16:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
30. Close - as per Remulazz and Lp. Jacopo 17:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
31. Close --Giovanni 17:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
32. Strongly support to close I have relatives in Lombardy. I agree with DracoRoboter. --valepert 18:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
33. Close --Olando 18:19, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
34. Please, close that disgrace: it is simply absurd that a language based project is written by bots, with a declared goal to build an encyclopedia in many different dialects, passing this off as a unified lombard language. The project itself (and Clamengh above) state that there is no lombard language. Moreover, despite its 100 000+ entries, there are only a few evidences of human activity (most vandalisms and reverts). Is this what we have in our mind? Wikis without community? Wikis written by bots? Wikis based on a original languages, built arbitrarly? If the proposal were made today, it would be rejected with a barrel of laughs. --Tooby 17:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    BTW, I didn't know that United States, in lombard language, is lmo:United States... --Tooby 17:24, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    This morning, while the discussion was in progress, Clamengh's bot created hundreds of pages like this [6]. Is it a joke? --Cotton 20:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    No, it's lmo.wiki everyday life. --Tooby 20:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    Two thousands of five-word-articles, written by a bot, in a language invented there ex-novo by the botmaster (Lombard souradialectal), using an ortography invented by the botmaster (Ortographa ORS) and still not published. Wow!!! lmo.wiki is better than hashish! And it's not illegal! --Remulazz 09:49, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

    BTW, in a serious Wikipedia edition, an user uploading tens of thousands articles like those would be blocked for vandalism. On lmo.wiki, he administrate. --Remulazz 13:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

    What a truth!! This is a heavy reason for close the Lombard Wikipedia. Rastrojo 19:03, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

    This is not necessarily a heavy reason for closing the Lombard Wikipedia, but rather a heavy reason for a radical... hm, I would say perestrojka of the Lombard Wikipedia.--Kemmótar 23:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

35. Close I agree with Remulazz IPork 20:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
36. Close. Looking at the keepers' votes below, I noticed how few lmo.wikipedia users are defending this project. May I presume that such a lack of community is the best proof of Remulazz's statements? As a vec.wiki user I sense this difference: when a language is not easy to put into written form (there are still some problems about this on vec.wiki) first some form of community is needed, then there can be debate, search of consensus and so on. What is slowly moving vec.wikipedia to a solution has never occurred on lmo.wiki. - εΔω 21:24, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
    • P.S. As I wrote also in the first Proposal for closure, I want to clarify that Remulazz's proposal is completely different from Codice1000's one: detailed, meditated (it's no surprise for many people), supported by many other users. - εΔω 21:31, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
37. Close Quoting all the folks that preceded me. -- Sannita 22:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
38. Close --Bramfab 10:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC) I'm agree with all the previous, and I would like to tell briefly a personal experience. At begin of my approach with wiki I was glad to sign myself also in the so called Lombard wiki, after when I realise that the language used was not matching at all what I was used to hear from my grandparents so I pratically left the project. During the August '07 wikipedians meeting in Milano Remulazz told me that I had been blocked in Lombard wiki as suckpuppet of Code1000 (I guess as retalation because I supported and eventually I'll support the proposal of Codice1000 for an insubrian wiki just to have an undestandable wiki to people used to milanes dialect)! I didn't take care of that because I'd already left that version of wiki project, but this is a confirmation of a "very strange" behaviour of "lumbaart" management.
39. Close I completely agree with what Remulazz stated in his analisys (imho that wiki seems like something written in gramelot). --kiado 12:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
40. Close the language used on lmo wiki has nothing to do with what I hear from my father, grandparents, relatives and with that spoken from all previous generations of my "original milanese" family... --Civvi 14:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
41. Close - I don't know Lumbaart language, but I guess this is not Lumbaart. Please note that the "author" of this kind of "articles" is Blamengh (clamengh's bot), the same of the latest 5000 English or empty pages: trashpedia? --Jhc 15:01, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
42. Close, quoting Remulazz and Lp. KS1975 19:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

    00:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)Mariorix°–00:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)Mariorix badly formatted vote.

    Close, quoting Civvi. I haven't looked at the political usage of the lmo wiki, but I can speak from a linguistic point of view. This Votr podeis aidar Wikimedia a canbiar l mond sounds catalan, not Lombard! For example I'm from Milan and I would understand something like ti ta pudariat aiutà Wikimedia a cambià 'l mond. This is not about ortography, it's about lexicon and grammar! Same for 10.000 personnes ann jamò fait donations, where I would say 10.000 gent ann già faa una dunazziun. They are inventing a language. Bon Zeenie Bon Zeenie 08:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC) i'll abstain for now. Bon Zeenie 14:19, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

    I do agree with you (although I support keeping the lmo.wikipedia), and more than once in the past I have criticised those 'catalanising' tendencies, asking to replace those banners with more lombard ones. Once I had to read a banner carefully more than a couple of times before understanding what was actually meant.--Kemmótar 17:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

43. Close, see below --Snowdog 11:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
44. Close, quoting Remulazz and Lp.GJo 10:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
45. Close, non esiste una lingua lombarda... al massimo diversi dialetti... insomma non ha senso... --Torsolo 12:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
46. Close, "lombard language" do not exist... There are only milanese dialect, bergamasco dialect, bresciano dialect and so on--Castagna 16:10, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
47. Close Helios 20:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
48. Close. "Lombard language" does not exist. I live in Bergamo and I assure that the idea of a unique "Lombard" language is simply a 'fakeloric' phenomenon. Statements about the existence of a single language are, at least in Italy, related to political propaganda spread by movements such as the Northern League. I don't know the strange reasons why Catalan people should oppose the closure of this project, but it doesn't matter. I've just read the reasons written below. --Nyo 20:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

    I don't know very much about Italian politics and I am not even an Italian citizen, but I am afraid the Lombard League / Northern League has done a lot of damage to the cause of Lombard varieties. Nevertheless, I believe that the days are gone when those speaking in favour of the preservation of Lombard varieties were implicitly identified as 'leghisti'. Besides, the Northern League has pursued the (utopic) idea of a Padanian rather then a Lombard language!--Kemmótar 23:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

49. This needs to be closed before it damages the Foundation. John Reaves (talk) 21:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

    Why closed and not radically reformed? Why can't the speakers of some Lombard variety have the right to have their Wikipedia -- provided it is a serious project? Lombard is after all rated as an endangered language even by UNESCO! I do agree that lots of things should be changed in the Lombard Wikipedia, but I don't believe closing it is the right way to go.--Kemmótar 23:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

    Do you really believe a radical reformation is possible? Wikipedia isn't UNESCO and isn't here to preserve ( or "conserve" if you wish) every endangered language. And wait a minute, Ethnoloque says there are millions of speakers and SIL says nothing about it (not that I place much merit in them). Where does UNESCO document Lombard? I can't find anything. John Reaves (talk) 22:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

50. Close ("l'è mej sarà sù bottega", told in Milanese, not in the so-called, not-existing "lombard"). --Vermondo 23:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
51. Strong Support to Closing -- I lived for my first twenty years of life in Lombardia, and me and my family are of lombardian descent. "Lombardic languages" are many, and very different; that wiki is un-useful and conceptually wrong (and, as other users, I fear the spoilering of this project for political separatist purposes - in Lombardia is very active a separatist political force, that - in theory - could be very interested in using/"hijacking" this project for their own "political-cultural" purposes). Veneziano 13:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
52. Close -- Lombard is a language family, not a single language, like Akan. MFG 14:46, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

    are you sure? I think that you don't have any idea concerning both, Akan and Lombard- Mariorix

    So are Italian, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Norwegian, etc. Close them too, then? -- Olve 14:56, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

    There is not a unique wikipedia (neolatin? indoeuropean? why not...) when you could write in both those languages. Instead there are dozen of wikipedias where you can write in those languages. I think it's not a complex concept... maybe I better explain it in italian :( DracoRoboter 15:07, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

    That is not correct, actually: The Norwegian Bokmål Wikipedia included articles in both Bokmål and Nynorsk for a long time before the Nynorsk contents were moved to a separate Wikipedia. In the Nynorsk Wikipedia, there is a (small) separate section for the written language Høgnorsk. That a Lombardian Wikipedia may include language forms now that may ending up being split in separate projects later is therefore not unique, and also not necessarily at all a bad thing. -- Olve

    Olve, though there are regional influences on colloquially spoken Italian, they are kept out of written Italian. So, it is a single language for the purpose of writing a wikipedia. Likewise, nobody in their right minds would write a de.wiki article in Bavarian. Bon Zeenie 09:12, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

    Italian is a language with a very strong written tradition and relatively little room for variation within the written language. Norwegian is a language with a lot of variation in both the spoken and written varieties; even within each of the two officially recognised written languages, there is a lot of variation. There is a strong written tradition in both these varieties as well as in, in practice, dozens of other language varieties. The German situation is similar to the Italian one, including the contemporary branching-off of language forms that are different enough from the written tradition that they are conceived by at least some speakers not to be sufficiently reflected in it. Lombard is clearly different from Italian and German here; but it has some striking parallel traits with Norwegian in its variety. -- Olve 13:12, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

53. Close --Kronin▄¦▀ 15:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
54. Close There's no such thing as Lombard! Snowolf 01:25, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
55. Close or split - The fact that Lombard is not a language is quite important, not to mention the inventing of things (e.g., lexicography ortography). I see many Lombards supporting the closure with this very good reasoning in mind. The only thing I currently see in the dissenters is a lot of "they're fascists" arguments (e.g., en:Godwin's law) or arguments without any support (e.g., en:WP:ILIKEIT); not to mention, of course, the single-purpose-accounts. Patstuart 08:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

    Please, could you clarify what you mean by 'lexicography' in this context?--Kemmótar 12:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

    Agree with Kemmótar: This sentence is not easy to understand for those of us who happen to have university training in linguistics and lexicography... -- Olve 13:12, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

    Agree with Kemmótar: This sentence is not easy to understand for those of us who happen to have university training in linguistics and lexicography... -- Olve 13:12, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

    Aggiungo, in italiano, che a me invece è molto chiaro quello che intende. Forse perché questa è wikipedia, ed è fatta da persone che non necessariamente debbono avere un "university trainig" specifico. Se volete "l'accademia della crusca" sarebbe meglio vi spostaste su qualche altro progetto. --DracoRoboter 14:07, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

    I misspoke; I meant ortography. Patstuart 07:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

    Aha! Now I get your point. Well, the whole issue of orthography is rather complicate, and I am well aware that there is no optimal solution. All possible solutions are in some way or another suboptimal (i.e., something has to be sacrified). I respect all serious proposals (i.e. based on reflection and knowledge of the matter one is dealing with) to solve this problem -- or at least some aspect of it --, even if I do not agree. After thinking, learning more about different Lombard varieties, and evaluating this issue for years, I came to a certain conclusion and devised a phonetically based system that I mean could work. This system is just an improvement of the one adopted by CDE in Bellinzona, which again is rooted in the Milanese tradition. Clamengh has made a completely different proposal, based on etymology (=the study of the history of words). I deeply respect his proposal, altough I do not think it could work in practice (incidentally, I do not agree with the introduction of Catalan solutions, as they are completely foreign to Lombard culture (which is a synthetic way to say: to the cultural traditions of Brescia, Bergamo, Milan, Como, the Sottoceneri, the Sopraceneri, the Grisons, the Valchiavenna and Valtellina, etc. etc. etc. etc.)).--Kemmótar 20:52, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

56. Close or split. It's unfortunate that the people opposing this closure are using generic arguments that don't apply to this situation. We're not destroying your dialect, it just doesn't make sense to have an edition in a language family that does not include a standardized, mutually intelligble lexicon. Whether the different dialects warrant their own editions would need to be studied further to see if appropriate reliable sources support it. - Taxman 19:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

    Although there is no strict standard, there is at least some tacit standard about what cannot be done. We can discuss whether [ø] should be written 'oeu' or 'ö', but almostb everybody agrees that a word-final [k] should be written 'ch', and that 'ch' should never be pronounced [tS] as in English... I believe that there is actually much more 'tacit' standardisation than people think...--Kemmótar 20:52, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

57. Close: Actually there is nothing wrong inventing your own language, make it popular, and then start a Wikipedia in your own language. But it seems that the 2 admins were misusing the opportunity of starting a Lombard Wikipedia and invent their own Lombard. Furthermore, recently when I translate the article on the language from English to Malay, I've found that there are West and East, and the difference seems obvious. So at least there should be separated Wikipedias for them.
    

    Furthermore, just now I've found that 2 of the bot created articles have the same content! What's the use!? That is really a trashpedia! Wow, bot creating articles, that's amazing! I wonder how could a robot write! That's not logic. The bots were merely used to create a false illusion that "the Lombard Wikipedia is good because it has a lot of articles". Why must there be so many empty useless pages? Just to put the Wikipedia in high position?
    

    Last time I really wonder how come such a Wikipedia that has only 2 admins can have 5 figures of articles. Now I understand! No wonder a few months ago it was still having less articles than the Malay Wikipedia, and now it has more than 100000! Merely using those s***s (sorry for this word) to raise it so high up... That's patent vanity! --King Edmund of the Woods 18:27, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

58. Close Invented language, invented orthography, dictatorship. I would have many things to say, but I've finished words. I've tried to dialogue, to persuade, to work actively (trying to neglect misunderstandings), to inform Wikimedia, to fight against the manipulation also practised on Italian and English wikipedias: I'm content somebody managed to do something. I hope in well. Codice1000 13:56, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
59. Close: --Accurimbono 13:30, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
60. Close No need to waste Wikipedia resources for this Wikipedia. No ISO code.--Certh 21:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
61. Close, the whole situation is a farce and the admins on Lombard wiki should be ashamed of themselves for allowing it to get to this state. If kept, it needs to have all of the junk swept out (I see a lot of that is being done), and the admins closely supervised to keep this from happening once more. Lankiveil 12:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC).
62. Close. Waste of time. --Node ue 04:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
63. Close. No reason to use a Wikipedia for a language family, where most of the pages are bot-created. Ral315 (talk) 17:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Keep

The formatting had been disrupted. Reformatted by --Kemmótar 00:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC) -- back to the previous subdivision with a 'Keep' section

1. Keep I don't see reasons to close this wikipedia. A language is a language even if is spoken from one people only. Sorry for my bad English.--79.4.185.88 00:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC) I understand the previous comment as a 'Keep', and I have added Keep at the beginning --Kemmótar 00:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
2. Keep The proposal of closing this wikipedia comments itself. However, being civic minded requires to register and vote pro keeping. I suggest the reading of Marx' "The Capital": there are plenty of issues related to the kind of oppression the proponents are trying to put in place. I would like to say that this proposal is complete crap, but fairness prevents me to do that.--Vladimir1 10:34, 2 December 2007 (UTC) PS I noted that the contributions are not time-ordered: feel free to move this one if needed.
3. Keep I vote in favour of keeping the Lombard Wikipedia. It is an already existing project, and if you close it, there will be little chance to re-start it from scratch. The fact that there already is a dedicated team of people (however small, it can be integrated and grow later on) seems to me an asset difficult to reconstruct. We should above all, if we are to do something for our minoritized languages, try not to destroy what we already have. I'd also like to say that I don't agree with some specific reasons that have been put forward in favour of cancellation of the Lombard Wikipedia. Lombardizing modern words like "sociology" is not at all inventing, it is the only way we have to follow the fast progress of knowledge, and actually native speakers do it. What we should fight against is not native speakers' creativity and ability to adapt to changing times, but their tendency to use Italian words instead of already existing Lombard words. So much for that. As far as the lack of standard is concerned, this did not prevent a whole lot of other languages to be accepted. Everyone should make a contribution, using their personal variety and declaring which one it is.
4. Keep Good afternoon, 10caart warned me about the existence of this proposal. On the one hand, I no longer take part in wikimedia projects (no spare time); on the other, I make two exceptions, with pleasure:

   I plan to complete a translation in Bergamasque for Lombard wikipedia

   I vote against this proposal, that cannot be accepted inasmuch based on calumniations, of course unproved.

   Every dialect and every orthography since has been welcome at Lombard wikipedia. Etymological ones are as well: the latter have the obvious advantage of writing different dialects the same way (but they are read differently; but eventually, wikipedia is a written encyclopaedia). There's plenty of reading which could be suggested to those willing to get documented (but the proponents do not seem willing). One among all: G.Hull, The linguistic unity of Northern Italy and Rhaetia.

   I too will conclude with a personal note: probably Remulazz' contributions are not fascist: they rather seem only half-fascist. In my view, the political misuse of wikimedia resource is completely up to the proponents. Thank you--OlBergomi 15:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

   What is half-fascist? --82.48.124.183 18:20, 2 December 2007 (UTC) Ops. --Remulazz 18:21, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

5. Keep The only people making (at pub-like level) original research are the proponents, while talking about the absence of a Lombard language. This question is settled by ISO, in turn relying on plenty of academic sources (see e.g. the English article about the Lombard language). One of the above user isn't even able to say "water" in its own language! Now I am going to make up a synthesis of recent contributions (by me and by my Lombard friends) about this problem:

   The words of these users seem to show that they do not know very well what a language is, nor do they seem to have the faintest idea of the notion of mutual intelligibility. It is not my job to teach this to them, but I can suggest an interesting reading:

   Komarova-Nyogi: Optimising the mutual intelligibility of linguistic agents in a shared world, AI-154,2004, 1-42.

   As to Lombard language, an extended bibliography is provided at English wikipedia, at the end of the homonymous article.

   A further strong motivation is that the external judge of these kind of questions is ISO (compare Wikimedia's No original research policy): and the present ISO's subdivision of the Rhaeto-Cisalpine domain (see G.Hull: The linguistic unity of Northern Italy and Rhaetia, PhD thesis, Sidney, 1982) into LIJ, PMS, LMO, ROH, LLD, VEC, FUR, EML is rather reasonable.

   The proponents seem to ignore that, while there's a linguistic border in the lowlands along the river Adda, western dialects continuosly turn into eastern ones through Valtellina in the Alps, with no precise border.

   All in all, the proponents seem dramatically unaware of their actions: of their own free will or not, they aim at destruction of Lombard tongue, this easily implying the impossibility of spreading knowledge in that language. This fact results in being contrary to the spirit of Wikimedia: Wikimedia projects are not about (conscious or unconcious) politics.

   There are also serious problems about two of the proponents: racist statements made by Codice1000 and Remulazz. The former, with the style everyone by now knows, abused, among others, people from Southern Italy (whom, I dare recall, the material richness of Lombardy is at least in part based, as a matter of fact, upon) calling them terrons within Lombard wikipedia: this seriously damaged the image itself of our community, which, in the spirit of ancient Lombardy, is strongly anti-racist. The latter, who rather seemed a civilized person, once upon a time surprisingly stated something like this: Nature made Bergamasque people different from us. (!!!)

   Summing up:

   There's no reason to breake a well running project;

   LMO.WP is another evidence of the fact that ISO classification is right (if needed: ISO is based in Switzerland!);

   Closing would diminish freedom of expression in any variety of Lombard language, this being contrary to the spirit of wikimedia projects, inasmuch as Lombard language is like any language;

   The proponents ignore (among other things, like respect) the global structure of Lombard tongue: transition between Eastern and Western Lombard is continuous through the Valtellina (Poschiavino is an almost perfect mix) and there are other types of central dialects like Cremonese and Mantuan. So, this request means:

   "Everybody stop speaking (let alone writing) Lombard and turn to another language";

   "If you insist in speaking or writing Lombard, please, this is a joke for amusing serious people".

   It is clear that this is not what Wikimedia projects are about. I dare saying that this is not a completely bona fide request.

   The above users look like children whimming for breaking something. That's why these user should be told they are expected to contribute to LMO wikipedia if they are interested in (their dialect of) Lombard language. I warmly suggest this reading:

   Claude Hagège: Halte à la morte des langues.

   Finally, the above heavy accusation of separatism, must be proved (of course they couldn't) and not voted, unless this would be like a "vote" by Ku-Klux-Klan about coloured people. Regards, --10caart 14:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

   Omen, asen e porch
   se pesen dopo mort. --Codice1000 21:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

   You are the klan, obviously. 10caart, ma tu davvero pensi che qualcuno che ha scritto voci sulla wikipedia in lombardo usando la s per il plurale possa essere preso sul serio quando parla? Volevo farvi notare che fra le accuse che potete ancora rivolgerci manca solo quella di nazicomunismo alla Pol Pot. Potete provare, tentar non nuoce. Per quanto riguarda le prove, non replico perchè è troppo facile. Sai, mica che poi mi dicono che sono fascista. Potrei avermene a male. Confido che tu abbia capito il messaggio, anche se non parli l'italiano ma solo il bergamasco e il lombard souradialectal con il plurale con la s.--Remulazz 07:52, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

6. Keep It's pointless opposing on the base of content: that's a wiki, simply go and change contens. I think that this is a well driven project and will soon have its own community. Please don't forget that, according to recent studies on the matter the rate of analphabetism is 98 percent. This does not prevent the resting 2 percent to act in their own language. The question of dialect vs. language is easily established by any elementary manual of linguistics. I invite everybody to get documented. Finally, a personal note: my father escaped to fascist concentration camps by getting refugee in Switzerland: some of the opponents of our project really do make interventions whose tone recalls ancient kinds of prevarication. I hope that this political misuse of wikimedia resources is going to stop. Salutations, --Belinzona 15:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

   The political misuse of Wikimedia resources is going to stop when you, 10caart and Clamengh stop creating a language and a way to write it for your purposes. And please, I am tired to be labeled as fascist. I'm not fascist, and I think you (and your dear friend Clamengh here below) don't even know who were fascist. A real fascist would have asked for the closure of every regional project. I took dozens of proves against lmo.wiki, and I'm just asking its closure. Just read my report, even if I am well sure you don't need to do it. --Remulazz 15:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

7. Oppose The whole above is fascist delirium. Those who spoke about separatis ideas in Lombard wikipedia should be able to stand in front of an arbitration commitee and prove there accusations. Otherwise they should be banned. The language-or-not issue is the usual unscientific junk. I recall that this is a matter stated by ISO 639-6 --213.140.11.135 13:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC) + Oppose The whole above is fascist delirium. Those who spoke about separatis ideas in Lombard wikipedia should be able to stand in front of an arbitration commitee and prove there accusations. Otherwise they should be banned. The language-or-not issue is the usual unscientific junk. I recall that this is a matter stated by ISO 639-6 --213.140.11.135 13:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC) That's me--clamengh 13:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   For the sake of clarity, if 213.140.11.135 is voting in favour of keeping the Lombard Wikipedia, he/she should use the appropriate template (Keep = 'keep the Lombard Wikipedia', Oppose = 'shut down the Lombard Wikipedia').--Kemmótar 23:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

   What? 213.140.11.135 was Clamengh himself! He told us just two lines before... --Giac! - (Tiago is here) 15:26, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

   Why two votes? --Remulazz 13:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   One vote, of course.--clamengh 13:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   The question language vs not language is stated by ISO: lmo is ths code for the Lombard language.

   Those who speak about political or separatist ideas should prepare to stand in front of an arbitration commitee and prove these accustations.

   The etymological orthography ORS is now published, so IT IS NOT ORIGINAL RESEARCH. --clamengh 14:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   I wold like to stress that my vote has been cancelled twice. Please check the log of this page. This vote looks like, to say at least, suspicious.--clamengh 14:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   Are you sure? I deleted once, and restored three minutes after, when I realized my mistake. I apologized for this. However, your vote is well visible few rows above. --Remulazz 14:55, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   Cancelling others' text? Bad attitude, like this or this or this case... Who was the first to strike others' text in this page? --Giac! - (Tiago is here) 15:35, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   Could you please give some more info about this "etymological orthography ORS"? I cannot find anything but you. Thanks. Frieda 14:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   Hello, thank you for your question. At the moment I can only send you a letter of acceptation by the review which will publish the article (it's copyrighted material). ORS means Ortographa de referença S. The only item to be explained is the capital letter S, referring to the etymological writing of -es for feminine plural. Please e-mail me if you are interested in the copy of the letter of acceptation, I will send you in a few day (I have to go back home to scan it). The article will appear in spring 2008. As you can see, we are people working hard and bona fide. Thank you and best regards,--213.140.11.135 16:31, 28 November 2007 (UTC)--clamengh 16:32, 28 November 2007 (UTC) (not logged in, sorry)

   Does "etymological orthography ORS" refer to Lombard? ..it's a spanish editor, with a site in english, catalan and occitan. Am I wrong if I understand that it's an "opera prima"? Who is the author? May I see some bibliography? I'm not a linguist, I'm just a wikipedian. How can I trust this source? Frieda 16:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   It's suitable for the whole Cisalpine domain. Yes you are, it's the first part of a planned series of articles. The author is me. This kind of source (a scientific journal) is accepted by English wikipedia. But you are not forced to trust this source: you already came to Lombard wikipedia, so you can raise an issue like: Refuse or accept only this kind of orthography etc. (of course this is a Pandora vase, you know well).--clamengh 16:48, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   This article will appear in spring 2008 means only that this article has not yet been published. So, rebus sic stantibus, this is a original research. And when you stated ...The etymological orthography ORS is now published, so IT IS NOT ORIGINAL RESEARCH. you were saying a false thing.

   No lombard dialects have the feminine plural in es. Only western romance languages have. So, why should we apply this to a (not existing) different language?

   You wrote ... As you can see, we are people working hard and bona fide.... We? Who? I say you mean you are part of a group that want to invent an ortography, publish it and adopt it to write a language you invented, given that you have not yet answered the main question: why Lombard Wikipedia has two main pages? We are always talking about an original research.

   --Remulazz 16:48, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

8. Keep Keep the Lombard Wikipedia!!! Some good points have been made by those who want to close the Lombard Wikipeda.

   - The orthographic issue should be settled, and it is true that the Catalan and Occitan influences both in some orthographic solutions and in the lexicon sometimes are too strong. Such influences should be mitigated;

   - Sometimes new words are created, but this is a part of the normal process of corpus expansion.

   These and other issues should be discussed and settled within the Lombard Wikipedian community, but I see no reason to close the project because of this! --Kemmótar 17:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   Kemmotar, you don't understand a thing. We are not discussing about a voice, but about a language used to write it. Such influences should be mitigated???? Mitigated??? One more proof, you're inventing a language. Kemmotar... Lombard does not exist. Simply. It is an invented language (this statement is proved by lot of link, some of which mentioned above), written in an ortography invented by Clamengh (...The author is me..., right above here), dulcis in fundo never published by anyone. Mitigating the influences? ...Sometimes new words are created...? ...process of corpus expansion...?. You admit it so easily... you are working for us. --Remulazz 17:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   I think the tone of this disussion is degenerating, thanks to Remulazz, but anyway: anyone who has taken a basic course in linguistics knows that words are created continuously, in every language!

   Just a quotation from Språknytt 4/2007 (the bulletin of the Norwegian Language Council (http://www.sprakrad.no), page 31: title of the recurring column: "Nyord" -- which in Norwegian means 'New words'. This means that, unlike Remulazz, the linguists working at the Norwegian Language Council are aware of the basic fact that new words enter a language all the time, and have decided to devote a column to this topic in each bulletin...--Kemmótar 21:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   By the way: I do not think that there is something we can call 'Lombard' as a single variety, i.e. in the way that we can write a single grammar of that language as we could write e.g. a grammar of the dialect of Livigno or Lugano... On the other hand, I believe speakers of Lombard varieties could possibly agree on an Eastern Lombard koiné and a Western Lombard koiné (the latter being, for all practical purposes, more or less the same as the so-called 'koiné ticinese). The Catalan-looking and Catalan-sounding language you are thinking of is, of course, a construction (a very interesting for a linguist like me, but not viable in 'real life' or as the standard for a Lombard Wikipedia). You can see here [7] an example of what I mean by "Western koiné" (as I am the author of this text...). I don't think it should look/sound so unfamiliar to you... although you and I would probably pronounce that text with minor differences.--Kemmótar 02:00, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

   Usually invented by a community not by one person. --DracoRoboter 22:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   Yes, but not necessarily. There are many cases of words invented by a small community or a specific person (based on material already present in the language) and later accepted by the larger community. Finnish and Modern Hebrew have many examples. All the examples in the Norwegian article mentioned above are taken from specific authors/newspaper articles and even dated!--Kemmótar 12:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

   Can you show a standard grammar of "lombard" (not milanese, nor mendriosotto nor tessin..), show me which state declare that exist a language known as "lombard". Show which community accepted lombard as standard language. Thank you bagai. --DracoRoboter 14:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

   If somebody would like to invent a new langauge he can do that obviuosly, but not under the umbrella of wikipedia, which is developped not for personal research. Plus I would like to note that the agency creating the new words for Norwegians and similar is adding words to a completely established languages, not to a sort of patchwork plus invention plus automatic bot activity as done here.--Bramfab 15:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

   Here in Norway we have two written Norwegian languages, and lots of dialects. Please, have a look at the Wiki about Ivar Aasen in the English Wikipedia.--Kemmótar 23:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

9. Keep (agree with people in this section). --Cedric31 17:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
10. Opened. The ISO 639-3 stated that Lombard is a language : http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=lmo.

    So Ethnologue : http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lmo.

    So UNESCO : http://www.helsinki.fi/~tasalmin/europe_index.html.

    -- Dragonòt 16:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    If lombard is a language, why lmo.wiki has two different versions? Lombart Oriental and Lumbaart Ucidentaal Frieda 16:29, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    Of course is acceptable that two or more written norms cohexist. Nevertheless we have two distinct wikis: a bokmål wikipedia and a nynorsk wikipedia. Think about a single norwegian wiki with some articles written in bokmål, some written in nynorsk, and a lot of articles written in a mix of bokmål, nynosk, danish and icelandic, and yo get the same situation we have actually on lmo.wiki. --Snowdog 02:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

    Yes, exactly. And that is how the two Norwegian wikipedias started. Later, the Bokmål and Nynorsk versions split when the time was ready. The same will probably happen with the Lombardic one when it gets help to get through the initial quirks. -- Olve 15:04, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

    Dear Frieda, you should ask the question to the ISO, or to the UNESCO, or to Ethnologue. Thanks, -- Dragonòt 10:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

    The main page has two versions for the sake of making up community: people could feel oppressed by one dialect rather than another being privileged and so forth. It's a rather common phenomenon in languages lacking an accepted koiné. (Consider Sardu, for instance). So: we encourage people to write in their dialect with the orthography they prefer. It's libertarian, isn't it? (BTW, LMO.WP is rather an anarchist base, purely by chance :-).

    The huge number of short articles has been made up with the same goal in mind. So if one doesn't like that: come to Lombard wikipedia, ask for an election, ask to ban Clamengh (I hope you won't), and so forth. Best regards,--clamengh 16:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    Ovvero non esistendo una lingua lombarda hai cercato di far convivere le varie lingue che esistono in Lombardia, e dintorni, nella stessa wikipedia, poi l'hai riempita di spazzatura. Qualcuno qui sopra ha affermato che dovresti vergognarti, concordo completamente con lui. --DracoRoboter 16:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    You see, Frieda, here in Norway we have two different written languages: bokmål and nynorsk, and both are considered Norwegian (actually, historically speaking, the minority language (Nynorsk) is 'more Norwegian' than the majority language (Bokmål), evolved from Danish). In many newspapers you can find an article written in one language and one in the other. Some of our laws are written in one language, and some in the other. Children at school have to learn both (one of them as the main language, the other as the secondary langage). Students at university have the right to choose in which language to receive their examination papers and in which language to write their exam. Why couldn't two or more written norms cohexist also in the Lombard-speaking areas?--Kemmótar 02:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

    Norway is a state that decided to use both language. Sorry but for a simple-mided like me is not the same thing. DracoRoboter 10:41, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

    Do you mean that if a variety is not an official language in some part of the world, then it is not a language? Btw., Norway now has two official written langages, but before this the official language was Danish. Do you mean that Norwegian was born on the day Danish ceased to be the official language of the Norwegian administration?--Kemmótar 11:40, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

    (Stante che vorrei che tu mi citassi il punto preciso in cui ti avrei insultato) No, sto dicendo che è ha senso che uno stato, o comunque una entità pubblica, crei una lingua artificiale unificata sulla base delle diverse lingue esistenti sul suo territorio. Non ha invece senso che tale operazione venga portata avanti da un gruppo ristretto di persone sulla base di loro teorie. Wikipedia non è fatta da linguisti: se volete che si usi una lingua questa deve essere riconosciuta come tale da una comunità e non deve essere stata inventata da un gruppetto di persone. DracoRoboter 13:15, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

11. Keep I am shocked to see the claims that Lombard is not a language. Of course it is. It it is well acknowledged among linguists that the "dialects" of Northern Italy are separate languages, and that Italy is one of the richest countries in Europe in terms of linguistic diverslty (cf. Lori Repetti (ed.): Phonological Theory and the Dialects of Italy ISBN 90-272-3719-0). I should know, having used Lombard language data both in my phonology lectures at the university and while examening Master's degree students. There does however not exist any officially recognised orthography of Lombard, and so the language, as most languages of the world, is mainly found in its different oral varieties, just as was the case of Norwegian only 150 years ago. The completely normal situation for a language is exactly this: a bunch of oral varieties that can be grouped together, but that do not have a common orthography that has been approved by a government. Closing the Lombard Wikipedia would be just as justified as closing the Plattdüütsch or the Romani Wikipedias. It would be motivated by politics to a degree that would not be suitable for Wikipedia itself. Jea 18:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    Jea, you should confirm your identity. If not, maybe your vote has to be invalidated. --Remulazz 19:48, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    I don't quite understand how to "confirm my identity". Should I tell you my name or something? Jea 21:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    No, just have a look here. --Remulazz 08:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

    I can confirm Jea's identity.--Kemmótar 23:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

    Conservare (Please, help me with English) Salve, mi chiamo Giuseppe Verdi (sì, proprio come il noto musicista). Vorrei dire la mia, ma non so se è valida come voto, sono solo un lettore: la proposta di chiusura mi sembra il solito attacco fascista alla libertà di espressione. La wikipedia in Lombardo è certamente migliorabile, ma mi sembra ben impostata. Per converso, l'atteggiamento di coloro che qui ne propongono la chiusura ricorda proprio le squadracce del Farinacci. Vergogna. Il mio voto, se valido, è: mantenere ( Keep ). -Giuseppe Verdi 19:06 - Milano 28 Novembre 2007

    The vote here above is not valid, because expressed by an IP. --Remulazz 18:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    Is it possible to make a Check User operation about last posts by Jea and anonimous user signed by "Giuseppe Verdi" (He doesn't exist on it.wiki, neither in en.wiki)? Thank you. --Leoman3000 18:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    Ai fini della votazione è inutile: vengono conteggiati solo i voti provenienti da utenti che sono attivi su qualche progetto wiki con il nome utente usato nella votazione. Ergo un IP è fuori. cfr. --Tooby 18:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    Scrivo in italiano, così il nostro misterioso utente apparso solo adesso capisce. Non vedo attacchi fascisti, ma una normale richiesta di chiusura con una montagna di prove a favore. Le squadracce del Farinacci non sai probabilmente neanche cosa sono, oppure, se lo sai, vuol dire che non sai che cosa è wikipedia e come deve funzionare una sua qualunque edizione. Non mi sembra strano, dal momento che (a quanto sembra) sei comparso adesso. --Remulazz 18:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    Hello again. Perhaps I should add that I do not speak Lombard (or Italian) myself, although I have been in the area as a tourist. :) I work at a university in Norway (but I post this from home). Jea 18:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

12. Lombard is a language as linguistic authorities state. The fact that its dialects have different orthographies is something relatively common in other languages and does not imply that those dialects are separated languages. Therefore, I think that the wiki should not be closed. However, it is true that the other accusations are strong enough to act in this wiki. Maybe the administrators that could have acted despotically should be temporary desysoped while a consensus from the community that really wants to improve this project is searched, both in which users are the most prepared to lead the project (I am not saying that the current sysops are not) and which orthographies have most literary tradition and should be used. In addition, I support the opinion that WMF should not maintain a wiki filled with completely useless bad translated bot stubs and I propose to delete them all (especially those crazy numbers). Maybe this means that most of lmo pages have to be deleted and that this wiki has to almost restart from zero, but the community has to understand that there is no "free knowledge" at all in this kind of work. --SMP (talk page) 18:55, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
13. Keep The ISO 639-3 stated that lmo is the official code for the Lombard language, as an existing language. It would be unfair to close Lombard Wikipedia project for this reason. I vote for maintaining it as it is. TXiKi 19:05, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    Then you can answer. If Lombard is an existing language, why the main page is splitted in two? So far, no answer has come to this questions. --Remulazz 19:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    BTW Like Frieda asked above, I'm looking for a standard Lombard grammar. Can you tell me where I can find one? --Remulazz 19:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

14. Keep It is really disheartening to see this debate. You can't improve the lmo-wp project simply closing it... is this the way to behave? ... or it is a new wikimedia policy? I undoubtedly prefer 1000 vandalistic attaks to our wp project rather than this single attempt to silence the voice of a minority language. Feeling disgust --Flavi 19:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    Yes, Flavi. It is a Wikimedia policy. You have to close a Wikipedia written in a invented language. You're right. --Remulazz 19:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    So... ISO 639-3 is an invented code? --Flavi 19:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

    No, I don't think it's invented. Why did you split in two your main page, if Lombard is a unique language? Why did Clamengh, Belinzona and 10caart say they want to study a Koiné lumbarda? Why did Clamengh try to create two separate namespaces for the same thing? It's quite strange, for a Wikipedia written in a unique language.

    Do you know Akan? ISO 639-3 code is ak. Akan wikipedia has been closed with the motivation ...is now considered a family of languages.... How can you explain this fact? I wrote the link in the report I put above. --