Requests for comment/Feel persecuted by Danny B.
For the last about half year or even more I feel to be persecuted by user:Danny B. This persecution includes defamation, lying and putting a spoke in my wheels. Danny B. is telling other people publicly and behind my back that I am irresponsible, danger and I am advancing. Instead of presenting his point of view, he presents it as general point of view (=fact), objections, policy violations. But if asked to link polices, which had to be broken or support those "facts" by link, nothing comes.
More and more, instead of contributing to WMF projects and helping Wikimedia community, I am being banished by Wikimedia users. Often, when questioning them, it reveals that Danny B., is staying behind such defamation.
People say, we are in conflict or "you are in conflict with Danny B.", but I don't feel to be in conflict with him. I feel more like to be a victim of Danny B.'s persecution, because I am not acting against Danny. It is Danny B. who is acting against me. Here are some examples:
- (April 2012) Denunciation, that I reveled Danny B.'s identity in Wikipedia. I said to police, that I hadn't done that. This is still ongoing. However Danny B. present it as law violation, for Czech police it is not an offense. But it is still bothersome for me.[More 1]
- (February/March 2012) I got importer rights on cs Wikiversity upon community consensus (The majority of active contributors where in favor (4 from 5). Wv participants, where in favor even after Danny B. came up with his point of view against.), the day after I lost them thanks to steward PeterSymonds. PeterSymonds told us, that Danny B. spoke to him on IRC with some "objections" upon which he acted. But I don't see any objections. I just see Danny B. is presenting his point of view on Czech Wikiversity and 3 people disegree with him waiting (still) for response.[More 2]
- In fact I had already importer rights from 2008 on Czech Wikiversity to help Danny B. with import from incubator. Than I was using them occasionally to help other users. Suddenly at April 11, 2011 steward Mardetanha removed these rights summing up that I don't need them any more. When I asked months later how does it come, he said rights are not for ever as I had retired on the project and as there is a policy on Czech Wiktionary (!). Wierd!
- (December 2011/January 2012) In my request for administrator flag on Czech Wikipedia (as OTRS volunteer I needed to work with deleted pages) Danny B. led defamation campaign presenting some facts (e.g. I am revealing personal data). When asked for proves, he continued with defamation and no proves were given. I think Danny's behavior might damaged my reputation at cs.wp.
- (November/December 2011) OTRS administrator Raimond Spekking closed my OTRS account due to the complains of Danny B. that I had revealed his real name from OTRS. When the fact that there were no real name of Danny B. presented in OTRS, my OTRS account was reopened. At that time Danny B. knew, that as a chair of Wikimedia Czech Republic I had an access to members database and documents, where he using his real name. So yeah, I know his real name from there, but I never revealed it publicly. For more information see October 2011 issue. Later (see April 2012 issue) Danny B. report to Czech police that only board and chair has an access to his real name.
- (October/November 2011) putting a spoke in my wheels at grant request. I requested 15 EUR for mouse highlighter as I was training Wikipedia editing (part of Czech Ambassador program) as I haven't found suitable free software. Danny B. commented "it is useless grant request, because there is a lot of freeware and open source programs" (Czech: Zcela zbytečná investice, když se na internetu dá najít řada freeware či dokonce open source programů…). We asked him to link this software, but even Danny B. was editing elsewhere within the time, it took him 3 weeks, to tell us that "We should use Google" (Czech: Google je mocný nástroj…) and continue putting a spoke in my wheels. I patiently look up first 5 Google pages of Danny B.'s link and found one badly working free software I had seen before.
- (October 2011) Danny B. told to steward Pathoschild, that I revealed his real name. This is not true, I have just inflected his user name. Note that Czech language has a lot of inflection. According Czech police and a person, who knows Czech Personality Protection Act this cant be understand as Danny B.'s real name.
- (April/May 2011) Danny B. intimidate board and chair of WMCZ (in WMCZ only chair is legally responsible) that there were broken some agreements with third parties and we might need to pay almost 130 000 CZK (quite a lot of money in the Czech Republic) for not using a centralnotice (banner). But Danny B. hadn't revealed these agreements to us even asked. He continues with aggressive behavior towards me (humiliating, ridiculating, etc.). Using expressions like obviously there is something rotten in WMCZ (Czech: Zřejmě je cosi shnilého ve sdružení wikimediálním), not organizing an event for which he was responsible, trying to attack my responsibility. After about 5 month of Danny's direct and passive agrressivity (not replying to my questions or with big delays) I resign thinking he will stop (later I am leaving even WMCZ with an idea he would stop to persecute me).
- The last big Danny's attack on my chair responsibility, by not organizing a big event for which he was responsible and trying to intimidate WMCZ board was probably not just his rage burst, but probably prepared action as in April 2011 I got an anonymous message about some almost 130 000 CZK which I should enjoy (Czech: To jsme radi,ze si ji beres. Pro tvoji informaci-v tuto chvili ma hodnotu 127 230 Kc vc.DPH a bude jeste vysi, az bude konecne vyuctovani.Uzij si ji, predsedo.). At that time, I didn't understand whats going on, I have understood everything about month later, when we got an e-mail from Danny B. talking about same 130 000 CZK. I also haven't figured out that sitenotice (banner), we (me and vice-chair) agreed to remove per community protests, someone expeditiously switched on.
I have already tried to discuss this issue with Danny B. several times, but he never responded me on IRC nor to my e-mails nor at wiki. There was even an attempt to underwent mediation with a professional mediator, but Danny didn't show interest. I don't know what to do, if I am willing to be active in Wikimedia. Thus I am asking you for your point of view or proposal for a solution (help).
Statement of Danny B.
Views by users
I have to agree with a big portion of the Juandev's statement. Frankly, this issue is a part of a more complex problem that involves Wikimedia Czech Republic (Juandev is a former chairman of WM CZ and Danny B. a member since its founding in 2008). The relations between: "Danny B. + several people on his side" and "another part of our community (including me, Juandev, practically the whole current board of Wikimedia Czech Republic, many other members)" are deteriorating since cca 2009-2010.
For a long time communication between these two sides proved to be more and more complicated to maintain. As of April 2012, there is hardly any communication at all. Danny B. does not respond to me, many of our members, or our board, to any kind of e-mails or messages sent via other communication channels (IM, Wikipedia talk page, WM CZ internal wiki etc). He does not respond even if several members ask him to do so. Danny B. is however always present on General Assemblys of WM CZ. On these meetings, he is very often suggesting many ideas, proposals or explaining various of his opinions. It is quite hard for any moderator of the GA to lead a discussion he is participating on. GA's of WM CZ usually takes several hours (there were even GA's that took 10 or more). Many of the members of czech Wikipedia community or Wikimedia Chapter simply realized that communication with Danny B. or cooperation on some project is an extremely complicated task; some of them may see it as even something impossible.
For example, on 12th April 2012 there was an official board meeting of Wikimedia Czech Republic (Danny B. was our only guest). Instead of a discussion about our agenda (WM CZ), Danny B. shouted at the board members and expressed that he will accuse them in near future from theft. Most of the members (including our chairman) simply refused then to talk about a certain part of the agenda just because of this behavior. The official etherpad log from this event (written mostly by me and other members of our chapter interested in the session) was no longer available after cca 2 hours after the meeting was over (a backup version was however preserved). It is not available even now (I already tried to solve this issue on #wikimedia-tech but users present didn't show any conclusive evidence, what happened). Several members of our chapter not knowing about the statement of each other accused Danny B. from manipulation with this log.
There is also a long history of a similar situations that goes back to 2009-2010. That time Danny B. negotiated the Mediagrant and Presentation & Outreach grants for Wikimedia Czech Republic. Most of the meetings of the Czech wikipedian or Czech wikimedian community with Danny B. during that time were quite violent (shouting, verbal attacks etc). In sep/oct 2011 there were even some signs of a possible fight face to face between him and one of our members during a wiki meetup in Prague.
This whole situation resulted in a great distrust on each side and a high level of suspicion in our chapter and community. Frankly it was known to all of us in czech Wikipedia and Wikimedia Czech Republic, that this conflict is only going to escalate, but noone would expect that a legal action (as far as I know Danny B. is about to take a legal action against Juandev and he already submitted a proposal to the Czech police) will be taken. I do believe that such a behavior is totally unacceptable for wikipedians willing to solve own problems in a civilized manner. I also believe that there should be no place on any Wikimedia project for people supporting and effectively using this way of solving their problems. Wikipedia and Wikimedia community is a group of people interested in spreading free knowledge, not a legal battlefield. Wikipedia communities and Wikimedia chapters have their own mechanisms (Arbcom for Wikipedia, disciplinary action for a Chapter) how to resolve internal problems. But none of these were used by Danny B. in recent days. Only a proposal mentioned above was submitted. Aktron (talk) 19:30, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
There have already been many strong words in the conflict between Danny B. and Juandev. Im my opinion, they both seem to be somewhat problematic personalities with serious communication problems between each other but also with many more chapter members. Juandev left the chapter and Danny B. seems to have abandoned many of his activities that he had used to work on in the Czech chapter. However, their quarrels shed a bad light on both Czech Wikipedia community and Czech WMF Chapter. Still, I do not understand what the output of this discussion should be (admittedly I do not know the RFC rules that well). I believe that the Czech community should be able to solve the problem on its own. Nevertheless, I will be glad to hear opinions from people "outside the project". --Vojtech.dostal (talk) 20:15, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
I know nothing about the situation, and I might have a number of questions, which I will only (if ever) ask after we hear the opinion of the other side. However, if it is correct that one of the users submitted a case to the police against another user on WMF-related issues, should not this user be immediately banned?--Ymblanter (talk) 20:44, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- Just as you pointed out: firtst hear the other side and then judge, not earlier. Regards. -jkb- 21:47, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- The equivalent of NLT on cs.wikipedia isn't explicit about it and there is some discussion. Some believe, that only those, who uses threats on discussion pages and legal threats at the same time should be banned. Danny B. isn't currently commenting on the whole issue. He edits mostly articles, templates etc. Local admins believe, Juandev should ask Arbcom for help, Juandev started this RFC instead. (Frankly, I don't have any deeper knowledge about this situation neither...) --Pan BMP (talk) 23:04, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- Short explication also from me. I haven't started this RFC because of Danny B. editing actually on Wikipedia. I was working on this RFC for the last few weeks as I was most the time at work and needed also to enjoy my free time (which is not definitely via writing RFC).--Juandev (talk) 23:34, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Danny B is part of a group that has dominated parts of the WMF and IRC, and has generally had an extremely acidic personality. I have tons of logs from IRC chats related to the above, and I was witness to Juandev being treated like crap before as I have had a long interaction with him via my once ability to edit/admin Wikiversity. I doubt anything will ever happen, because no one who really cares has any sway here. The whole place sucks. This is one example. People who are unable to contribute legitimate content, i.e. 99% of people with power or sway, have no right to have any power or sway. We will always be amateurish and awful until that is changed. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:33, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I have to agree with this. I think the most important thing is to have a good information channels between WMCZ and the Foundation. Because they might be interested in this issue (A person trying to take a legal action against another person is in the organizing team of WMF's international activities? Fascinating). --Aktron (talk) 09:15, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- Ottava Rima: you don't understand the language at all, you do not have any infos about the conflict obviously, but you are like to accuse another user and to judge about his behaviour. Your own experience here ot on other projects should tell you that you better slow down. -jkb- 17:50, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
I have no involvement or information regarding this, except for the #wikimedia-tech / etherpad episode. Without knowing anything of the prior situation, I found then and I still found now that the suggestion that root users might have taken down the etherpad intentionally on behalf of this Danny B. guy is ludicrous to say the least. I have really no idea about what's going on here, but when the user was advised that only root could have theorically done so and started repeatedly asking for the list of root users (upper part of the table here) suggesting he wanted to investigate it further, it seemed to me to indicate a certain level of paranoia that was well beyond what would be considered acceptable. Snowolf How can I help? 21:20, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- BTW, I heard about "etherpad episode", but is not connected with me. That etherpad text was a text created on board meeting of Wikimedia Czech Republic. As I am not a member of Wikimedia Czech Republic, I don't have access to such document. Noone outside WMCZ has the access to WMCZ documents.--Juandev (talk) 22:20, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
I can accord with others that Danny B. is extremely acidic man and there where many many problems with him in czech Wikipedia through years, it is a man who is not able to collaborate and communicate with others in any way. For example already at 2007 he had to desysop himself after many conflicts with others and protests. As a little example I can prove that he deleted a subpage of my userpage in test.wiki as a little revenge (even if he never admited it of course) as result of conflicts between us  (in this time he had no more sysop rights in cs.wiki).
It is not possible to write about all problems with hims, it would work for hundreads od pages and hours.
I would like to ask you all here what do you want. A global ban for the User? His expulsion from the cs.wiki? I must say this remember me on another guy from the cs.wiki who had problems over there and started to post here hundreds of kilobytes of accusations, attacks etc. with his problems on the same project. Up to now you can find these stupid texts in the archives - just search for cswiki issues. Did you try to solve the problem in your project? The cs.wiki ist not quite small, you have users who can seach for sollutions. The cs.wiki has an arbcom - so try something there and do not import this to here. Only when it doesn't help you should try something else. But this RfC is not the right way at the moment. My two drachmas. Regards, -jkb- 22:58, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- It has been obvious that there has been disruption that has taken place on Meta, on lists, and the rest, that was discussed to great lengths here while the above user has berated others for posting here about what they experienced. It is hard to see this user as doing anything but furthering the original disruption and this is a major illness in Wikipedia and what will always hold it back. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:29, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Most of the listed problems with Danny B. were not done on Czech Wikipedia and some of them still involve English speaking people (like stewards or OTRS administrators). So that is why I don't understand your recommendations.--Juandev (talk) 05:53, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- I can't do anything but cite another user at your address: "Your statement is extremely incivil and disruptive." —Guy Peters 17:32, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
We should definitely hear the other side too. But I'm not sure whether Danny B. can participate in this RfC since he runs legal actions against Juandev and therefore he has to avoid editing the projects. --egg (talk) 09:24, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Well, that is not an excuse. I would be very pleased for his point of view and feelings. If you tell someone, that you suffer from his behavior and he tells nothing and continue doing what pains you. What is that?--Juandev (talk) 12:24, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Hello. I'm not really implicated in this, but I will comment anyway as I was asked to review this RfC on my user talk page. The only thing I can attest is about the general behaviour of Danny B. I remember I had a conversation with him on IRC and on his cswikiquote talk page, about a site logo I protected. He complained that I used sysop tools there without asking him first, because he was active and available on IRC at the moment I did this. If I write this little story here, it's because I was struck by the impolite way he answered me. I really had the feeling that everything done on cswikiquote had to be reviewed by Danny B., as if he was mastering this wiki.
Anyway, what happened between you and him is the past. What I would advise you is to avoid and ignore him as much as possible. When I read your statement, it seems to me like you feel harassed by him, but he feel harassed by you too. And I think that this RfC you just wrote against him will confirm him in his feeling. That's why ignoring everything seems to me the best solution to pacify the conflict. Best regards, -- Quentinv57 (talk) 06:57, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hi, thank you very much for your point of view and proposed solution. But e.g. if I was defending myself from OTRS administrators, I was not taking care of Danny B. I was just saying and arguing I hadn't done that. Than when I lost importer rights, I was not interested in vilifying Danny, I had to find out why I lost them and it was told us, that Danny B. stayed behind. So I am not sure, it that will help.--Juandev (talk) 18:10, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm not able to comment in general, I just noticed this RfC on Danny's talk and I want to say something about the CentralNotice event I was involved in: it's part of a general disregard of the CentralNotice guidelines by Danny, who at the time didn't log his actions although it was required, but was obviously the one who re-enabled the WM-CZ banners without even replying to my message (if I remember correctly). For the purposes of this RfC, I perceived this as a sense of "ownership" of (non-Wikipedia?) cs projects and maybe WM-CZ, that he seems to have.
Disclaimer: I've never had problems with Danny but I think our (calm) discussions often run in circles, mainly due to my bad communication skills (to use an euphemism), although he disagrees; all in all I don't know whether I'm NPOV here. --Nemo 08:28, 24 July 2012 (UTC) P.s.: This RfC as usual is dormant and leading to no outcome, maybe Juandev should propose some action or maybe just discussing it openly helps improving this sad situation of non-communication which seems to be ruining cs projects (I don't know if it's related, but a Czech friend of mine told me that in his [IMHO not so well informed] opinion cs.wiki is very bad, with broken "management"; I didn't believe him but who knows, maybe wide-spread conflicts are giving this image to the outside world).
- In Czech
- See log for April
- Someone has created an article about Danny B. using the information from the Internet. There was also written a user name of Danny B. Danny B. probably asked steward PeterSymonds to oversight it and then denunciate me and other two Wikipedians on police.
I have revealed this on Czech Wikipedia and Danny B. was asked in the light of NLT to step back, but he doesn't want to stop editing Czech Wikipedia.
- I don't know, what objections led PeterSymonds to act like this. Even I asked him, he haven't released them publicly yet. Those are probably points of Danny's vote against. But on Czech Wikiversity these "points" are understand like Danny B. point of view, because 3 users disagreed, with Danny's arguments. In this discussion, Danny B. was asked to link policies, he was talking about, but he haven't offer such link yet, to prove his statements. I also don't understand, why Danny B. didn't replied in that discussion on Czech Wikiversity, but 14 days after communicated to the steward to remove these rights. See: voting and discussion (in Czech), dialog with PeterSymonds, user rights log.