Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Algerian

Algerian Wikipedia

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Requests for new languages (Wikipedia Algerian)

submitted verification final decision This language has been verified as eligible. The language is eligible for a project, which means that the subdomain can be created once there is an active community and a localized interface, as described in the language proposal policy. You can discuss the creation of this language project on this page. (See an unofficial analysis of this request.)

Proposal summary
Language details: Algerian (Jazayri, arq ISO 639-3) Editing community: Ikjan (NP) Great11 (N) ZinoAlgerino (N) Morisco (N) Oldstoneage (N) Clapsus (N) Omar2788 (N) List your user name if you're interested in editing the wiki. Add "N" next to your name if you are a native speaker of this language. Relevant pages: development wiki project (test project) similar previous request (closed) External links: English-Algerian Dictionary - French-Algerian Dictionnary -
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Algerian Arabic, or Darja, is the native language of the majority of the 35 million Algerians, more than 80% of them speak is as their native language, while the remaining 20% speak it as their second language after Berber, it is therefore essential that the Algerians get a wikipedia in their own native language to have an easier access to knowledge and feel that their language is valued and recognised as such.

Algerian Arabic largely differs from formal Arabic, and the difference is certainly as big as between Italian and French, most of its words are of arabic origin but they are changed to a big extent and the berber influence makes half the vowels in the original arabic pronounciation disappear, it has also many new words and many words that are of Berber, Turkish or French origin. However, the difficult History of Algeria (a History of colonisation) did not permit the establishment of an Algerian state that would have institutionalized the Algerian language like it was the case with the European latin languages and their emancipation from formal latin.

Most Algerians can speak and understand formal Arabic, because it is the language used in the media, at school, at work..etc.. but their spoken language remains the Algerian Darja, and those who did not study and learn Arabic or French cannot get easy access to knowledge and information, and our goal here is to grant a direct access to knowledge in their own language to Algerians who do not master, nor know much, of Arabic, French or other languages.

Arguments in favour

• Tout le monde parle le Derja en Algérie. All people speak Derja in Algeria --Great11 04:34, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
• Un nombre assez important de locuteurs. A important number of speakers.--Lakamira 12:54, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
• It is the vehicular language of nearly all Algerians and the native language of a large majority of them. --Ikjan 14:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
• It is the main language used in Algerian films, series, TV shows, songs and in all the cultural life of Algeria. --Ikjan 14:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
• It is largely different from formal Arabic, much more different from it than is Egyptian Arabic or other Middle Eastern varieties of Arabic, and there is a Wikipedia in Egyptian Arabic. --Ikjan 14:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
• It can be understood by many people of Algerian descent, outside Algeria (particularly in France) Halladba 21:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
• The Algerian language is pretty diffrent then Arabic, much more then Egyptian with Arabic and Catala with Castellano. It will afford more people to well understand the contents of wikipedia. Regards --Morisco 20:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
• Support Support--Ramsis II 02:09, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
• Being mainly of arabic origin doesn't make it Arabic , just as Spanish, French or Romanian are not latin and are distinct languages from it, despite being mainly of latin origin.--Ikjan 02:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
• The same words may have different meanings in Algerian and in Arabic. And although their origin is Arabic, their meaning in Algerian has changed from the original.--Oldstoneage 01:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
• Many dictionaries have already been edited for this language, from the 19th century to this day.--Oldstoneage 01:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
• Provide a means of valuing a culture of inestimable wealth, heir of many civilizations of exceptional influence in the world, originating from all around the mediterranean sea. --Oldstoneage 01:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
• It is unfair that many small, local languages and dialects, spoken by a few thousand people, such as Extremaduran, have their own wikipedia, while a language spoken by 35 million people doesn't have its own one.--Ikjan 14:25, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
• Algerian is somehow silimar to Maltese (that is a mix of arabic and latin languages), Algerian is a mix between Arabic (main component), Berber, and latin languages (mainly French) , and Maltese has its own wikipedia even though it is spoken by only half a million people.--Ikjan 14:25, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
• The fact that Algerian Arabic is not used in algerian schools, newspapers or official documents isn't a valid argument, this is only related to the internal policies of Algeria, the fact is that this language is the everyday's language for the majority of Algerians and this is the most important. And about the comment that says "and there is no real motivation among Algerians to write it and make it the official language of the country" , I don't know who wrote this and by which right he speaks on behalf of all Algerians ! This is the opinion of someone and certainly not the opinion of the Algerian people as a whole. Of course there are Algerians who do not want or need an Algerian wikipedia, because they can understand other languages or because they just despise their own language and call it a "vulgar dialect", but we are here for those Algerians who do consider their language a language and want or need a wikipedia in it. --Ikjan 22:08, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
• Support Support: Native speakers of Algerian Arabic are willing to contribute to this project in the long-term, hence this project has the potential to flourish like the other North African language Wikipedia editions such as Egyptian Arabic, Kabyle, Tarifit and Moroccan etc. Therefore the Algerian Arabic language ought to be given the opportunity and priviledge to have its own language edition of Wikipedia. Portions of the Bible have also been translated into Algerian Arabic [1]. --Jose77 22:35, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
• Support Support. --Mahmudmasri 02:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support Support. I am for the algerian (or maghreban) wikipedia, because over 80 millions people speak this language evryday. --— Clap^sus — 15:41, 10 January 2010 (UTC)Clapsus 15:40, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
• Support--Reality006 23:20, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support It will serve a useful purpose and is written in a recognised language. Good luck. --Ghaly 18:21, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
• Support The variants of the Arabic language is fairly beautiful languages, if not wrong major literature or the translation of the Qur'an and films, books in the Arabic variants. Doncsecz^talk 14:07, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support --Vugar 1981 10:36, 15 March 2011 (UTC) İnactive section. --N KOzi^Talk 10:30, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
• Support Support: Since all algerians speak that language, which is very specific, and have really a little in common with classical arabic or orientale arabic. --Omar2788 14:49, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support --Veritas-tr 18:50, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support if some people consider this their language and I do see a small literary tradition in bible portions as early as the 1800s then I support them.Luciferwildcat (talk) 03:17, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Arguments against

• Cite from enwiki: In Algeria, Algerian Arabic or Darija isn't used in schools, television or newspapers, which usually use Arabic or French, but is more likely heard in music like Raï if not just heard in Algerian homes and on the street , and there is no real motivation among Algerians to write it and make of it the official language of the country. That says it all. --Thogo (talk) 15:38, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
• There's already a request for Darija Wikipedia. Although Algerian, Moroccan and Tunisian dialects (Darija) are a little different in pronunciation they are very similiar to each other, creating a wiki for each north african state makes nonsense and will only distract efforts in the future. --Xiquet 20:54, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
• Is there an established literary tradition for this dialect? I doubt it. Without an independent literary tradition, it will end up as another "Arabic Wikipedia", but for Algerian users. Alefbe 21:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
• Same as thrd comment. Robin Hood 1212 13:36, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
• It is more useful to contribute to Arabic wikipedia; no dialect of Arabic has ever been in official use, use on TV is limited to informal or semi-formal discussions and entertainment, writing in an Arabic dialect is as unacceptable as writing in 'jordie' - despite the larger gap between formal and informal arabic - which means most residents of any Arab country are unaccustomed to informal Arabic - as well as these dialects lacking academic terms. Creating wikipedias for every Arabic dialect will not in my opinion seriously affect arabic wikipedia, but they would end up like the egyptian arabic wikipedia and only be edited by those with a clear anti-arabic or ultra-nationalist agenda, hence be read only for humour to see how skillfully the writers can avoid using common arabic words. One could consider seriously a proposal for a wikipedia in darija, the maghreb being a real cultural and linguistic region, but creating wikipedias for every arab country can never result in a serious knowledge bank, rather give a platform for nationalist extremists and distract from improving the Arabic wikipedia which is of much greater benefit and would be taken more seriously if presented to a university for example. I am still appalled as an egyptian that egyptian wikipedia is allowed to exist as a toy for some rich kids (and yes, one can tell because there are variations within a country's dialects, raising the new question of whether we'll have a wikipedia for every region of every country) , and many others feel the same. A more useful discussion would be how to simplify Arabic wikipedia's style.Moemin05 15:39, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
• Strongly Against Creating Wikipedias for every Arabic dialect will not result in any positive development. One must keep in mind that most technical terminology is similar across the Arabic dialects as the terminology is effectively part of the Standard Arabic lexicon. The proposal will only result in duplicate work for Wikipedia contributors who will merely copy text from the ar.wiki to the Algerian one (as with the case of arz.wiki) and change minor grammatical and orthographical details and a few non-technical vocabulary to suit the label "Algerian". Agari 17:26, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
• Very Strongly Against All Algerian users should just use the Standard Arabic wiki. It's like saying a request for Australian English, or Mexican Spanish or African American Vernacular English or the Shanghai dialect of Wu Chinese. Creole languages are separate since they develop on their own, but dialects, no.
• Very Strongly Against I fully agree with the previous comment. There is no such language as Algerian, and furthermore there is no literature or written texts in this dialect. It's strictly part of the Maghreb dialect that also includes Morocco, Libya, Tunisia and Mauritania. Atubeileh 02:35, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
• Against!! --U.Steele 21:27, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Other discussion

• We need more nicknames in "Users interested in forming an editing community" so that our language project will be taken seriously and validated , so please enter your nickname there if you are interested in having an algerian wikipedia and in contributing in it.--Ikjan 05:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• Wouldn't it be better to create just a Maghreban wikipedia? --81.65.131.45 15:43, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

• I have some of the same concerns that I did with respect to Egyptian Arabic and Moroccan Arabic, etc. -- these languages are easily eligible on purely linguistic grounds (i.e. number of speakers, distinctness from other language varieties), but if there's no standardized orthography clearly distinct from the orthography of Classical Arabic, then the usefulness of a Wikipedia for them would be greatly impaired. This is because attempting to write dialectical Arabic with the standard Classical Arabic script, largely using standard Classical Arabic orthographical conventions, will always be a half-baked solution with many drawbacks and unsatisfactory results (negatives which are simply unresolvable within the Classical Arabic orthography system itself). In short, many of the distinctive features of each Arabic dialect will not be able to be written clearly and unambiguously, and it will look like an illiterate unsuccessful failing attempt to write Classical Arabic in the eyes of Classical Arabic purists. I strongly doubt whether an Arabic colloquial wikipedia will really be successful until and unless it adopts some kind of colloquial-specific orthography which is clearly distinct from Classical Arabic orthographic conventions. For an example of such a proposal for one Arabic dialect, see Nizar Habash's "Palestinian Arabic Spelling Standardization Project"... AnonMoos 13:36, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

thanks AnonMoos, the systeme you propose is interresting, i am actually working for a similar job to adapt with algerian spelling that is different from the palestinian one, but some of your propositions can really help.--Oldstoneage 11:49, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

• Test project started, find it here [2].--Oldstoneage 16:15, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
• Talk about the project here [3]--Oldstoneage 15:11, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
• Project is eligible. --Millosh 11:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

---

• Propose of a Maghrebi wikipedia with a written source -- I will support a Maghrebi Arabic/"Darija", north africa (Morocco-Algeria-Tunisia) dialects -they all called darija- are very similiar to each other they are only different in accent, I don't support creating a wiki for each land since it's illogical to claim the dialect recognize national borders and you will find a different accent even among the one land, however they started teaching it in en:Ceuta and en:Melillia as a "new" language.[4][5] I will argue with many other sources if needed cheers. --Xiquet 22:30, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Localisation update

• Currently there is no effort underway to localise the nmost wanted messages at translatewiki.net. This is a requirement before a creation of a new Wikipedia is considered. Please ask at translatewiki.net for support for your language. Thanks, GerardM 09:26, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Northwest African Arabic

Please, take a look at Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Northwest African Arabic and discuss there about the possibility to create Northwest African Arabic (Maghrebi) Wikipedia. --Millosh 23:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)