Requests for new languages/Wikipedia American Sign Language 2

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[edit] American Sign Language Wikipedia

←main page Requests for new languages (Wikipedia American Sign Language 2)
Discussion verification final decision
Discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Votes will be ignored when judging the proposal. Please provide arguments or reasons and be prepared to defend them (see the Language proposal policy). (See an unofficial analysis of this request.)

Contents
Proposal summary
Language details:
American Sign Language (ase ISO-639-3)
Users interested in forming an editing community:
Add N beside users that are native speakers, and P beside the original proposers' names.
scottprovost (NP), affiliates of the Center for Sutton Movement Writing; icemandeaf (N)
Relevant pages:
External links:
Please read Meta:Language proposal policy for help using this template correctly.


American Sign Language and it's variants found around the world and is the only language for millions of people. This is not a fictitious language and is a crucial communications link a significant percentage of people on earth. I am proposing we start with translations of English material into the English version of sign language known as American Sign Language. The American sign language True Type font from Gallaudet should provide a good start with a coding system for the specific movements of sign language or Signetts to be added later. —unsigned by Scottprovost 09:15, 15 February 2007.

[edit] Arguments in favour

  • Contrary to popular belief, sign languages are in fact completely separate from spoken languages. They develop in the same way as spoken languages, but are independent of them. For example, American Sign Language is not related to BANZSL family (British, Australian and New Zealand Sign Languages), except perhaps in some loanwords. Similarly, Bolivian Sign Language is a modified form of American Sign Language, signed in Bolivia, where the official languages are Spanish, Quechua and Aymara. ASL is also used in many non-English speaking countries around the world; see [1]. The American Sign Language uses a SOV (subject object verb) word order; English (SVO) "I love you" becomes "I you love". Sign languages also have their own syntax and grammar. In other words, using automatic conversion from English to ASL would be just like using an automatic translator. So, my concusion is, that if there are enough willing contributors to start a Wikipedia in ASL, I'm all for it. Jon Harald Søby 18:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I am very for an ASL Wikipedia. I know that there have been some comments in the past request that ASL in not a written language. That is wrong. ASL has been a written language for a long time, it has just been hushed. One from of written ASL (and I use it daily) is SignWriting. As a Deaf native ASL user who writes in SignWriting daily, I would be more than willing to contribute to an ASL Wikipedia written in SignWriting. And just for clarification, ASL does not use SOV word order. It is OSV. (ie you I love, not I you love.) --Icemandeaf 22:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I am very in favour for Wiki articles to be converted into sign languages so that Deaf people all over the world can have access to information in their own language. I myself am not Deaf but am learning BSL. I'm sure this could be similar to the Spoken Article Wikipedia. I feel that Deaf people should be able to access pages in their own language. For many Deaf people, sign language is their only language. Just because a person is Deaf should not exclude them from accessing information on Wikipedia.--86.30.24.196 23:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
    Not converted; translated. Jon Harald Søby 20:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Support. Pietras1988 19:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
    Read the guidelines; this is not a vote. Jon Harald Søby 20:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I was agiant ASL wiki when it was proposed the first time, but only beacuase there was no information provided about writing system, and videos will not work well for wiki as the main media (poor editability). But now as the writing system seems to be availible, I see no reasons why this language should not have own wikipedia. It is used by at least half a million people, so the should be enoug contributors. It is language on its own, separate from English. V. Volkov / В. Волков (kneiphof) 11:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Support. However, how will do you computerize this wiki? --Yes0song 15:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Read the guidelines; this is not a vote. (The computerization is being discussed below, and a solution with SignWriting seems to be the most reasonable alternative.) Jon Harald Søby 23:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Wikipedia in sign language is strangest thing i'll ever heard. - Dmitry-spb 17:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Es hat eine ISO-Kode. Deutschlehrer 13:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
  • There is a large community that uses ASL (which is a separate language) and since there is a system of writing in ASL, there should be a Wikipedia for it. -- Imperator3733 17:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. Sign Languages are the first language of millions of people aroundthe world. The ASL will be the first to show the way for other Sign Languages to create their own Wikipedias in their own languages. This will be a great add-value for the whole Sign Language community to build and maintain their cultures and languages. --Teemul 19:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Complete Support. I am in favour of an American Sign Language Wikipedia, written in SignWriting. I use British Sign Language myself, and I certainly do hope that BSL its own one in time. I am very aware of how American Sign Language (also British Sign Language) is a separate language, and it is not 'signed English'. There is such a thing as Signed English, but American/British Sign Language is not it. They have completely different grammars from English, and overall I think it would do wonders for the SignWriting community and literacy with SignWriting, of which I am a new user but very impressed with. InnocentOdion 13:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Arguments against

  • ASL as a language has been transformed over the years into a cultural weapon. And the absolutists have used ASL as a weapon at the expense of deaf leaders seeking co-existance with the rest of the society.
  • Users of ASL are deaf not blind, that means that they can read and write in english.
    • Native signers are very different than native speakers. The language center of the brain can be hard wired to either the eyes or the ears. If the language center is hard wired to the eye, then a phonetic writing system makes little sence. A visual writing system allows for literacy to develop. Once literacy has been learned, literacy in a second language is much easier. -Steve
    • Blind people read and write in English quite well, actually. There are many blind people actively involved in Wikimedia projects. But that's beside the point. Of course almost all ASL users are bilingual; such is the case with many languages, for example the Cherokee language. That is not a good reason to not make resources available to deaf people in both English and ASL.--Pharos 19:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
      • Idea of creating ASL Wikipedia is as good as crating AMC Wikipedia (American Morse Code). Propably AMC Wikipedia will be easier to implement becouse only two signs are needed : . and -. Btw how about ChSL (Cherokee Sign Language) and NSL (Navajo Sign Language) editions ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.16.78.126 (talk • contribs) .
        • That comment is just ignorant. Please read the arguments in favour. Also, if there was such a thing as Cherokee or Navajo Sign Languages (which there isn't; they use ASL), and there were people willing to contribute to a Wikipedia in those languages, I see no reason as to why they shouldn't have been created. Jon Harald Søby 12:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
          • Native Americans had developed their own sign languages long time before America was "discovered". Sign languages were used for example during hunting to avoid detection. If you had not heard about that, does not indicates that Cherokee or Navajo sign languages are not exist.
            • Yes, that is probably true. But to my knowledge, those sign languages are not used today. But if they are, and there are enough contributors to start a Wikipedia in either of them, I see no reason why we shouldn't. Jon Harald Søby 14:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
  • There is no ASL literaly language, no books (exept manuals), newspapers etc. Pe7er 10:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
    • That is not necessarily an argument and, it is not true either. GerardM 19:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
  • ASL was not invented for writing, but as an altervative for voice comunication. Pe7er 10:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
    • ASL exists to communicate, it is not an alternative for voice communication. On average fifty percent of the people who use a sign language can hear perfectly well. It is also no argument that is relevant. GerardM 19:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
  • This is not a language, just a mean of comunication. You can spell with your hand every single word in english or any other laguage using handshapes, but for short ther are signs for whole words. Also stantard sentence structure is sometimes different just becouse it is easier to articulate message, not becouse it is other language. Pe7er 10:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
    • It does have a grammar, a syntax and does have an ISO 639 code.. English is also just a means to communicate.. thank you.. GerardM 19:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Yes, it does have a grammar and syntax and all that, but you're forgetting that sign language was, and is still meant for person to person communications. Deaf folk are perfectly capable of, and very often do, read and write using the language they know with letters, not sign language characters. Also, I don't think it'd be practical, as not everyone knows how to write ASL characters in the first place.
        • Nonetheless, ASL is a language of its own, with a large community of users, and what you are forgetting is that English is not a primary, but a secondary language for most of the Deaf community. It is highly offensive and quite ignorant to presuppose that, simply because many Deaf people understand and can write in English, they should not be afforded the option of contributing to and enjoying a resource in their native language. A similar argument could be made that we should do away with the German Wikipedia simply because many Germans speak English. AmiDaniel 17:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Please read the arguments in favour, and don't make statements when you have no knowledge on the subject. Thank you. Jon Harald Søby 14:00, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
  • To be perfectly honest, given that ASL is a purely visual medium, I don't think an ASL-Wiki would be very effective, as it's almost impossible to edit as effectively as with a language that has a written form. Yes, there are tools such as SignWriting, but how many people are as fluent in SignWriting compared to those who consider themselves fluent in ASL? --Micahbrwn 18:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Please read up upon SignWriting.. GerardM 19:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Suspend until SignWriting gets added to Unicode. Hackish ways such as (ab)using the PUA don't seem reliable enough and can easily cause conflicts with software and/or fonts. -- Prince Kassad 10:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

People who speak sign language can understand english.--Arceus fan 20:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

First of all there are many sign languages. Second of all so what ? Does it matter that many people that can write ASL can als write English ? Thanks, GerardM 22:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • There is no need for it. It seems to me that sign languages only exist to suppliment other languages, in this case, English, in spoken contexts for people who are unable to hear those spoken words. Since Wikipedia is not primarily a spoken project, there is no need for it to be provided in sign language. --GW_SimulationsUser Page | Talk 16:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Sign languages have there own terminology and grammar. They are in no way related to the language that is spoken in the environment where the language is signed. What is asked for is a written Wikipedia in ASL. GerardM 21:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Two questions. Firstly, how many people in the world use ASL. Secondly, of those, how many cannot read and write English? --GW_SimulationsUser Page | Talk 22:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

There are in between 100.000 to 500.000 people who use ASL. The question how many of these can read or write English is not a criteria in granting a status to a language. GerardM 23:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Lets put it another way then. How many people use it as a first language. Also, please could you show several examples of documents which are written in ASL. --GW_SimulationsUser Page | Talk 23:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Examples of written ASL are easy to find. You can go to SignWriting.org or SignBank.org. You can read the Deaf Perspective on SignWriting (PDF). You can read Children's Literature including "The Cat in the Hat". You can read parts of the Bible. There are over 30 sign languages that have dictionaries from a couple of hundred signs to several thousand. The list goes on and on. We are making progress; we have been for over 30 years. We are picking up speed. Soon we'll have an ASL Wikipedia that's official or unofficial. Our latest symbol set is the best yet and available under the Open Font License. Our editor is getting better and better. It's a great time to write sign language! -Steve 16:06, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Optimal would having a writing system handled by Unicode. Possibly usable might be one with free fonts. It's simply not feasible, however, to start this project without knowing exactly how the language is going to be written. That's just going to produce an awful message, useful to few.--Prosfilaes 21:10, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
    • We are working on a free SignWriting font that will be available under the Open Font License. The current character encoding model uses 2 octet character codes and is theoretically compatible with Unicode. However, the current allocation of 512 character codes in Unicode for SignWriting is insufficient. Unicode will be a committee process and best handled after we have a working solution. -Steve 17:37, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Written ASL Wiki

Text is a great way to share information. Searching through vast amounts of information is possible when using text. Text does not need complex software, nor vast amounts of processing and bandwidth. With text, you don't always need batteries. When dealing with information, text is mightier than video.

We can write sign language on paper and we can use it on computer. The alpha version of the International SignWriting Alphabet 2008 has been released under the Open Font License. Valerie Sutton is finishing her work on the beta symbol set and Steve Slevinski is working on the new font files. Code is available under the GPL. Valerie Sutton and Steve Slevinski are committed to open standards. 2008 is the year for written sign language to blossom. A PHP, Javascript plugin is planned for MediaWiki, with a demo in Summer 2008. -Steve 21:29 January 24, 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other discussion

There was a large discussion here before. I moved it to the discussion tab. -Steve 21:29 January 24, 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why not an ASL Wikipedia with several different writing methods and modes?

This request is to have a Wikipedia for American Sign Language. We have discussed several ways to do that: Stokoe Notation, Sutton SignWriting, HamNoSys, and even a video section. What's wrong with using all of those to make this Wikipedia the most accessible to all ASL users? I know that Chinese has a simple and traditional. Why not we have something like that? We can talk about what we think works better than something else, and we will never agree. I personally don't see anything wrong with any of these methods. True, it will mean that there has to be someone to do each of these methods to get this Wikipedia going. Somehow, I don't think that will be a problem because everyone has mentioned a favor for one of these methods. And unless I am mistaken, there has not been one comment that has been against the idea of a Wikipedia in ASL. If this is the case, why not let the readers (or viewers) choose which method they wish to read (or view) an ASL Wikipedia. Everyone will have different opinions about how to go about it, but if we agree to have it why not just have each method go for it?--Icemandeaf 20:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

  • I agree. But automatic conversion must be a priority from the start; it would be very unfortunate if we developed a segregated mishmash of ASL articles in different systems that were only intelligible to one segment of the community. I do think, though, that videos should be secondary to written text, just as the spoken article sound recordings on Wikipedia are secondary to the written text. This is because videos, like sound recordings, are fundamentally unwiki-editable (incidentally, this seems to have been the main reason the first ASL Wikipedia proposal was rejected, because it was too video-centric). I do think though, considering that most ASL users are not yet familiar with any of the various writing systems, we could have a "holding pen" for video uploads without text, that could then be transcribed by experienced persons and formally published as articles.--Pharos 21:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
    • "Automatic conversion" what do you mean by this? Automatic conversion of the English Wikipedia to ASL? Not possible. Automatic conversion between SignWriting, Stokoe, and HamNoSys? I am not a programming expert, but the systems are VERY different-- it would be highly doubtful. My personal opinion- the only sriting system for ASL that is fully capable of writing every nuance of the language AND has an ease of reading/learning/writing that will make it useable by a wide community is SignWriting. It is not accepted 100% by all deaf people yet, but it is used by more than any of the other choices, and it is the only one (my opinion remember?) that has a ghost of a chance to become THE writing system for ASL, and any other Sign Language. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.9.24.58 (talk • contribs) .
      • Actually, I know of a project that will be designed to do exactly that ... transfer between various methods of transcribing/writing sign languages. It is still in its conceptual stages at this point, so it is not something that is available right now. When I hear more about that, I can let you know. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thiessenstuart (talk • contribs) .

[edit] ASL video practicalities

In researching methods for representing sign language on video, I discovered MobileASL, a system intended for ASL video compression on mobile phones. It is I think a proprietary system, largely based on giving higher resolution to the face and hands than to the rest of the picture. But one of its developers, Richard Ladner, though he expressed skepticism at the usefulness of sign writing systems, was kind enough to give some general advice on ASL videos and compression. He pointed to their research (PDF), which suggests that 10 frames per second on a 320 x 240 field is a good standard, with their best results at 25kbps. He recommended against using signed avatars as "not up to the task yet". He also recommended H.264 as a compression standard; Wikimedia projects currently use Ogg Theora for videos. To be frank, there is a lot of that paper that's beyond my experience, both in signing and in image compression; I'm sure it would be profitable for others to look at it.

It also strikes me that there are a couple of differences between Wikipedia's goals and that of a mobile phone video system. For one, Wikipedia is not real-time, so we could theoretically use more computationally intensive video compression. Also we can expect our contributors to record videos in a structured way, so that a contributor could consciously "confine" their signing to a smaller space if that would help. And because personal touches are irrelevant for an encyclopedia, we could get way with black-and-white videos if that was necessary.--Pharos 18:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The MobileASL project is a research project that uses the open source x264 implementation of the H.264 standard [2]. The particular suggestions of 10 frames per second, 320 x 240 resolution and 25 kbps are only for current cell phones that have limited bandwidth and computer speed. For broadband, more frames per second, higher resolution, and bit rates would be preferred. We do recommend more bits be allocated for the face because of the subtle facial expressions that are important in sign language. We believe, but have not confirmed, that the hands may need more bits when the signer is finger spelling. --Ladner 04:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The WMF has just put out a press release (see foundation:Wikipedia Invites Users to Take Part in Open, Collaborative Video Experiment) on a project that could finally make collaborative video editing possible. This would be very good news for the video aspect of an ASL Wikipedia, and hopefully for other sign language Wikipedia in future..--Pharos 18:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Format

Hello, some consensus on the format is needed before the wiki can be approved. Here are some points I've thought of while reading through information; hopefully it will help jump start discussion.

  • Video is a poor format as the primary content for a wiki, since it's not easily editable. However, it would be a very good feature alongside another format, like the spoken text project on en-Wikipedia.
  • HamNoSys is not intended for common use, and is not widely used. HamNoSys text is long and difficult to decipher, and is largely unfinished[3].
  • Stokoe notation is linearly arranged and uses Latin characters, which makes it easy to edit on a wiki. However, it is not widely used and cannot show facial expression, which is critical for American Sign Language. It does not provide for relationship between signs, so it is limited to strings of isolated concepts. Inflection is difficult to notate.
  • SignWriting is widely used. It allows complex sentences (are strings of symbols called sentences?), inflection, and facial expression. However, it is complexly arranged— this is both good (since it is easier to interpret) and bad (since it is difficult to represent in a text box).
  • Using multiple primary formats simultaneously may result in disjointed articles, multiple communities, conflicting policies, disputes, and general difficulty.

Based on these points, I think the best format choice would be SignWriting (if a way can be found to edit it easily) with secondary video representations. —{admin} Pathoschild 23:32:10, 08 April 2007 (UTC)

    • You certainly make a good point that we need to have an agreement as to how to have an ASL Wikipedia. I have to agree that SignWriting with secondary video representations seems to be the best way. The other options just don't do our language justice. I am sure that SignText (an online SignWriting text editor) could be easily incorporated into the ASL Wikipedia for easy editing. Just my thoughts. --Icemandeaf 07:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
      • Absolutely, SignWriting with video as a secondary method is the best option at this point. I'm rather encouraged to see evidence of some collaboration (or at least communication) with Valerie Sutton. – Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 23:34, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wiktionary

Why wouldn't we start with an ASL wiktionary? That would be immensely useful, especially since the use of ASL with young children is becoming more common. There has also been progress on an in-wiki video player [4] -Ravedave 02:55, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I would strongly suggest a SignText version of the Wikipedia in SignWriting which would allow a corpus to grow in ASL and other signed languages. The larger the body of text, the more accurate the translation. Only SignWriting is widely used and has the capacity to include facial expressions and iconic location markers and other linguistic markers for which English has no equivalent (tone of expression, rapidity of sign). [Charles Butler, 06:32 11 April 2007 (EDT)]

I'm also in favor of an ASL wiktionary; we're just dealing with individual signs, which can be shown as a video clip, and the corresponding definitions can written in English, or a similiar writing system for ASL. Or, add the ability for users to submit ASL video clips to individual English words in the main Wiktionary. —unsigned by 76.26.53.32 18:54, 24 February 2008.

I agree that an ase.wiktionary would be a great idea, but that's not what this proposal is about. – Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 23:21, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Wouldn't that be asl.wiktionary? Either way, an ASL Wiktionary would be a good idea. -- Imperator3733 17:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
An ASL Wiktionary might be a better "jumping off point" for the general idea of ASL wikis; it would allow the community to test out everything on a site smaller than an encyclopedia, though a dictionary is still sufficiently sizable to provide plenty of opportunities to work the kinks out. EVula // talk // ☯ // 19:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
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