Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Classical Mongolian

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[edit] Classical Mongolian Wikipedia

←main page Requests for new languages (Wikipedia Classical Mongolian)
Discussion verification final decision
Discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Votes will be ignored when judging the proposal. Please provide arguments or reasons and be prepared to defend them (see the Language proposal policy).

Contents
Proposal summary
Language details:
Mongolian (ᠮᠣᠩᠭᠣᠯ, ISO 639-3: mvf)
Users interested in forming an editing community:
Add N beside users that are native speakers, and P beside the original proposers' names.
Temur (N)
Relevant pages:
External links:
Please read Meta:Language proposal policy for help using this template correctly.
  • Speakers: 3,381,000 in China (1982). Population includes 4,806,849 Buriat and Tuvin (1990 census). 299,000 Chakhar, 317,000 Bairin, 1,347,000 Khorain, 593,00 Karachin, 123,000 Ordos, 34,000 Ejine (1982 census).
  • Regions spoken: Inner Mongolia, Liaoning, Jilin, and Heilongjiang provinces, Urumchi to Hailar. Also spoken in Mongolia.

[edit] Comments

How about adding a tab, like they do in w:kk, there they have one Kazakh Wikipedia, and a tab for Cyrillic, and a tab for Arabic, and a tab for Latin scripts??--Jdavid2008 09:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

That's a good idea. But I think having their Wikipedia hidden behind the Cyrillic one is a bit disappointing for almost 4 mil. mongolians in Inner Mongolia. Then there arises the question as to which one should be "behind". Temur 06:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion about the terminology here. Classical Mongolian is an extinct language. This proposal, however, is about (a dialect of) modern Mongolian, which happens to be written in the traditional Mongolian script. The Chahar dialect (I assume this is what is meant) only has relatively minor variations to the Khalkha dialect that mnwiki currently writes in cyrillic. Because of that, it would make sense to place the two on one site with tabs. Of course, this assumes that those tabs can support switching between pages with horizontal and vertical script... Btw., is there an incubator project yet? --Latebird 13:11, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Middle Mongolian gets a code xng, Classical Mongolian gets a code cmg. mvf is a code for south-eastern Nei Mongol language. (Other languages for Nei Mongol includes Bargu Buriat (bxu, north-eastern Nei Mongol) and Oirat (xal, western Nei Mongol)). Which language do the proposer suggest? -✉Hello World! 04:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] In favour

  • Es ist möglich ein Project zu machen mit <div>-Funktionen. Deutschlehrer 13:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
  • ᠠᠨᠵᡠ It's possible to write so and put links in it. --OosWesThoesBes 16:59, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Look, People

If you want to keep your diversity to mainstream western languages/culture and few other asian languages and be closed to Mongolian language/culture on your site, please go ahead. Internet is a diverse place, and we- Mongolians will have our space in it with or without Wiki.

I don't see the problem of keeping Mongolian language on Wiki.

We are open to hear your points of view. Are you ready to hear our points of view?

As far as technical difficulties go modern mainstream Mongolian language uses cyrillic alphabet few letters different from Russian alphabet.

Alta

No, please don't go ahead :) There should be a version of Wikipedia that Mongolians in Inner Mongolia can write and read.--Htgns 20:56, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Many languages original languages are being extinct in this wery moment. Classical Mongolian could be one of them and i think it is more mongolians that wants a classical mongolian wiki and i also think classic would be more successful than than cyrillic mongolian (I think that the mongolian alphabet is being extinct).

NilWil Nisse VII 17:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Certainly if the internet refuses to support the classical Mongolian script there is a chance for that. Besides, there are more Mongolians in China who use the classical script than there are Mongolians in Mongolia who use the cyrillic script.--Htgns 20:56, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Written Inner Mongolian and written Outer Mongolian are not mutually intelligible. If the Wiki software editors were able to make Wiki work for RTL languages they should be able to make it work for vertical languages, and it should be a priority to get that working. Inner Mongolian now works with Micorosft Vista, and Word--and so is a viable computer language. If a tab in the Mongolian wiki would be set up I think that would be okay--but it is not being set up, and likely never will be. Because of this I think that Inner Mongolians should have their own wiki, and if such a tab is ever made, the two can merge.

Perhaps Inner Mongolians out there should start a incubator project for now though...until things get set up.--Alfredie 06:18, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

It looks like something needs to be written to make use of the css filters for vertical script on IE, and for generating svg's on other browsers. Is this possible?--Smyrtaeg 19:40, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree. Our software has to support the vertical script. It is necessary for Inner Mongolian's, (and probably will be used some in outer Mongolia as well) and is also necessary for wiki's in Xinjiang Oirat, Xibe, Manchu, and Daur languages. There is no reason these great languages (Inner Mongolian included) should be left behind in the digital information era just because they're writing isn't horizontal. It also is no reason why these peoples should give up there excellent alphabets in favour of a Latin or Cyrillic one.--Htgns 20:53, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Windows Vista has fairly good support for Mongolian wiriting with Classical Alphabet (including vertical positioning in IE8). I find almost no mongolian encoded in Unicode on the Internet. Such a proposal would enable better communication for Mongolians. Mandel. 24 June 2009

[edit] Against

The code mvf is NOT the ISO code for "Classical Mongolian". What is the intention of this project ? GerardM 02:22, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

See Meta talk:Language proposal policy#Question: Classical Mongolian. It appears that the proposal is for the w:Mongolian language written in the w:Mongolian alphabet as used in Inner Mongolia in the People's Republic of China, as opposed to the Mongolian language written in the Cyrillic alphabet as used in the Republic of Mongolia. There may also be some small dialectal differences, but you'd have to ask them for details. I believe that is what the term "Peripheral Mongolian" used in the ISO refers to.--Pharos 04:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

GerardM, if you asking the intention of starting Classical Mongolian Wikipedia, then it is just the same as any other Wikipedia. Four million mongolians in Inner Mongolia do not read Cyrillic, and their language has own peculiarities. Temur 22:31, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

  • As long as the language itself is considered a single linguistic entity (albeit with regional differences), a single multi-script Wikipedia should absolutely be the first choice. I expect the Mongolian on-line community to be a relatively small one. Here, the force lies in unity, rather than division. The goal should not be to have yet another microproject, not to establish yet another online community, but to build a viable Encyclopaedia, which is a highly ambitious goal that most existing Wikipedia editions have yet to achieve. This should be the focus of attention, not catering regional or national sentiments. Wikipedia editions are not owned or governed by states. Neither is the current Cyrillic Mongolian edition a property of the Mongolian government, neither would a Classical Mongolian edition be subject to Chinese law. The Kazakh and Serbian examples have shown that multi-script Wikipedias do work. Which alphabeth comes first (for unregistered users and users who don't understand how to set their prefs) - well that's such a childish argument. I should even be technically possible to switch that automatically on a daily basis. Cyrillic on odd, Classical Mongolian script on even dates, since this involves no more than switching a boolean variable. --Johannes Rohr 12:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, I completely agree in principle that Wikipedias should not be multiplied beyond necessity. In this particular case, I wonder whether a multiple-script solution is possible. Writing in the Mongolian alphabet vs. writing Mongolian in Cyrillic script use very different spelling, as opposed to Serbian, for instance, where there is basically a one-letter-to-one-letter correspondence. Do we have software which will recognise whole Mongolian words and re-spell them? There might also be important differences in vocabulary; I don't know.—Nat Krause 15:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
"where there is basically a one-letter-to-one-letter correspondence": wrong:
Inner Mongolian：Vikipediya.　 čilügetü　 nebterkei　toli　bičig　bolai..
Outer Mongolian：Vikipedia,　　chölööt　 nevterkhii　toly　bichig boloi.
"Do we have software which will recognise whole Mongolian words and re-spell them?"
If we had, we would it before this talk.
It's even impossible to convert Unicode traditional Mongolian to mostly-used traditional Mongolian!

--虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 07:28, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Wait a second. From what I have heard, it seems the Mongolian script is always written vertically, as was Chinese in the days of yore. This writing direction is uncompatible with our software. If it can be done at all, it will take extensive efforts to make such a Wikipedia possible. I simply don't see how this could be accomplished. Steinbach (formerly Caesarion) 16:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Note: [1] --OosWesThoesBes 16:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
If extensive efforts are needed, extensive effort should be given.--Htgns 20:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Other

Related project: Wikipedia Mongol, Question: Classical Mongolian. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 06:50, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

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