Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Hmong Daw

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submitted verification final decision

This language has been verified as eligible.
The language is eligible for a project, which means that the subdomain can be created once there is an active community and a localized interface, as described in the language proposal policy. You can discuss the creation of this language project on this page.

Once the criteria are met, the language committee can proceed with the approval and will verify the test project content with a reliable neutral source, such as a professor or expert.

If you think the criteria are met, but the project is still waiting for approval, feel free to notify the committee and ask them to consider its approval.

  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code mww (SIL, Glottolog) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Hmong Daw Language name in English
Language name Hmoob Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q3138829 - item has currently the following values: Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality no indication Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links WWW Hmong Homepage Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL mww.wikipedia.org langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads no Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone Asia/Shanghai "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
submit Phabricator task. It will include everything automatically, except additional namespaces/settings. After creating the task, add a link to the comment.

Proposal

Hmong is spoken by over 4 million people worldwide. There are communities of speakers in Southeast Asia, China, the United States, France, French Guiana, and Australia, among other locations. Increasing numbers are acquiring internet access and literacy; there is a large internet presence of Hmong in the United States, especially young people. A Hmong language Wikipedia would experience great involvement and readership.

Discussion

Arguments in favour

Although the Hmong have many different dialects, there is no difference in the spelling of our words. Our written language was developed by French missionaries in the 60's. We use the US alphabet and while I was taking a Hmong literacy class to read and write a language I fluently speak, there was no difference in spelling for any of the dialects. Our written language utilizes the Hmoob Dawb (White Hmong) dialect which is the most commonly spoken to my knowledge. Again, I reiterate the fact that although there are many different dialects, there are no differences in the spelling of our words. I would like to use an example: The Southerners in the US say words differently than that of the Yankees but it is still spelled the same and has the same meaning. Just because it is pronounced differently doesn't change the meaning of a word or the spelling of a word.

  • Support — for a White Hmong Wikipedia (White Hmong is spoken by most of the Hmong diaspora in the U.S., with the second largest group being the Green Hmongs) Even though Hmong is split into many different dialects, White Hmong definitely does has a well-defined lexicon, (for example, see http://wold.livingsources.org/vocabulary/25) and its own script (the RPA). Creating online materials for different languages is extremely important for language preservation, and Hmong is one of the languages that's at highly at risk. — Stevey7788 23:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arguments against

I think it could be mww – Hmong Daw (White Hmong), it's one of Hmong languages represented in USA. A.M.D.F. 17:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
SIL tends to split languages horribly. If the Hmong speakers can agree on a writing standard that is mutually comprehensible, as the speakers of Arabic and German and Italian and Irish and dozen other languages with divergent dialects have (and Arabic, German and Italian all have multiple codes), then I see no reason not to open up a Hmong (hmn) Wikipedia, even if SIL and ISO 639-3 considers it a metalanguage. The English Wikipedia article says that Green and White Hmong are mutually comprehensible, so I think that would be the better route to go if the Hmong speakers are interested in opening a Hmong Wikipedia.--Prosfilaes 20:32, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Other discussion

There are some written systems of Hmong in China, one is 滇東北苗文 (Northeastern Yunnan Hmong), another is 川黔滇苗文 (Chuanqiandian or Sichuan-Guizhou-Yunnan Hmong). They are modified Latin writings. There is also a written system called 滇東北次方言規範苗文, which is modified from 滇東北老苗文 (aka Pollard script). The Pollard script was created by Samuel Pollard; some letters being similar to Cree syllabics.

The Hmong language is classified into 3 main branches in China, that is 川黔滇方言 (Chuanqiandian), 湘西方言 (Xiangxi or Western Wunan) and 黔東方言 (Qiandong or Eastern Guizhou), and Chuanqiandian is sub-divided into 7 sub-dialects. Both Green Hmong [ISO 639:hnj] and White Hmong [ISO 639:mww] are classified as the 川黔滇次方言 (Chuanqiandian sub-dialect) of the Chuanqiandian dialect of Hmong language. This may be the reason claimed by the proposer of this request, that Green Hmong and White Hmong are mutually comprehensible.

  • Hmong
    • Chuanqiandian Hmong dialect
      • Chuanqiandian Hmong sub-dialect
        • Chuanqiandian cluster Hmong [cqd]
        • White Hmong [mww]
        • Green Hmong [hnj]
      • Northeastern Yunnan Hmong [hmd]
    • Xiangxi Hmong dialect
    • Qiandong Hmong dialect

But since Northeastern Yunnan Hmong [ISO 639:hmd], another sub-dialect of the Chuanqiandian dialect, uses a different writing system in China, it may be that they are hardly mutually comprehensible; nor to say Xiangxi or Qiandong. --✉Hello World! 02:31, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PRC residents often do not have access to Wikipedia. The new Hmong Wikipedia should target the Hmong diaspora in the U.S., Canada, and possibly Thailand. Many of them are White Hmongs, who use the Romanized Popular Alphabet to write their language, Hmong Daw/White Hmong http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=mww
Also, if you look at the stats for Hmong language videos on YouTube, you can see that most viewers are from the U.S., with some from Thailand and Laos. That's because many Hmongs in Southeast Asia primarily live agrarian lifestyles, while those abroad would be highly modernized. — Stevey7788 23:44, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ya, so this is one of the reasons that I suggested a “White Hmong Wikipedia” rather than a “Hmong Wikipedia”. The blockage of Wiki_edia in PRC may lead to a situation that the Wiki_edia of other Hmong languages not to be created, though. Please be aware that there are some Hmong languages that do not belong to either White Hmong or Green Hmong.--✉Hello World! 17:51, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
AFAIK PRC users can access some Wikipedia/Wikimedia pages, but those on controversial issues are blocked. But I believe the bulk of the Hmong Wikipedia base will be from the United States, with some maybe from Thailand, Laos, France, and other places.
I started a thread on the Hmong Studies yahoo group proposing the issue, and a user notified me that this page is locked, so I am working on getting someone to either unlock it or propose a new venue of discussion: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hmongstudies/message/424
WhisperToMe 06:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
User:GerardM wants all contributors to register for accounts first before contributing. WhisperToMe 12:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also I started a listing of articles that could be started after (a) Hmong Wikipedia(s) is/are opened: User:WhisperToMe/ArticlestostartHmongWikipediawith - These articles are of interest to the Hmong community. Feel free to add more to my proposed list. WhisperToMe 07:07, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since there is support for creating a White Hmong (MWW) Wikipedia, shall I ask the Hmong community to begin contributing to incubator.wikimedia.org ? What instructions should I tell the community? WhisperToMe 22:42, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I will change the prefix of pages in incubator to mww. You shall ask Hmong speakers to start contribute in incubator. амдф 13:51, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I'll post another mailing message stating that the incubator is now ready. The incubator is located at http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/mww WhisperToMe 21:40, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The projects is now eligible (as Hmong Daw is a unique language). Please, contact GerardM for setting up language at Translatewiki. --Millosh 04:51, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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