Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Western Armenian

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submitted verification final decision

This proposal has been approved.
The Board of Trustees and language committee have deemed that there is sufficient grounds and community to create the new language project.

A committee member provided the following comment:

Congratulations on your approval. See phabricator:T212597. Please be sure someone monitors the phabricator task to make sure that the import from both locations (Armenian Wikipedia and Incubator) is handled correctly. For LangCom: StevenJ81 (talk) 16:17, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code hyw (SIL, Glottolog) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Western Armenian Language name in English
Language name Արեւմտահայերէն Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q180945 - item has currently the following values:
 Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality no indication Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL hyw.wikipedia.org langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name Ուիքիփետիա "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace Ուիքիփետիա usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace Ուիքիփետիայի քննարկում "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads yes Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo File:Wikipedia-logo-v2-hyw.svg This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone UTC (Many major communities in different countries) "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
submit Phabricator task. It will include everything automatically, except additional namespaces/settings. After creating the task, add a link to the comment.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Proposal[edit]

Western Armenian is one of the forms of Modern Armenian language mostly spoken in the Armenian Diaspora in many countries. Since 2014 there have been many pages edited on hy.wiki in Western Armenian which resulted in a two language Wikipedia project, where about 6,000 pages have two different versions (see for example the article of Franz Kafka in Eastern Armenian and Western Armenian). This situation still makes lots of confusion on the Armenian Wikipedia. By that time, Western Armenian did not have an ISO 639-3 code which prevented editors to apply for the project split.

Currently there are about 30 active editors in hy.wiki who edit Western Armenian content. With their help there are now 6,340 pages, 27 templates, and ~500 categories in Western Armenian on the Armenian Wikipedia.

In January 2018, SIL approved the ISO 639-3 proposal for Western Armenian making possible to apply for a Wikipedia project. --Davit Saroyan (WMAM) (talk) (Program Manager at Wikimedia Armenia) and Azniv Stepanian (talk) (Western Armenian project coordinator at Wikimedia Armenia) 12:01, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

Support if only to reduce the number of Wikimedia permanent duplicate pages on the Armenian Wikipedia. Mahir256 (talk) 02:40, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Little Oppose, because I've found a selectbox called "աւանդական" (on the top of wiki page, left of your username) which probably can convert contents between Eastern and Western. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:51, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Evertype and Davit Saroyan (WMAM): do you know about it? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:53, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Liuxinyu970226: From w:en:Armenian orthography reform: It was rejected by the Armenian diaspora, most of which speak Western Armenian, including the Armenian communities in Iran, which also speak Eastern Armenian and still use the classical orthography of the Armenian alphabet. As such the checkbox is not helpful in any capacity for Western Armenian text. Also Google Translate with the check box's hover text gives "display content in traditional spelling"—the differences between Eastern and Western Armenian are more than just spelling changes. Mahir256 (talk) 03:06, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Liuxinyu970226, this is a gadget which changes the Armenian orthography to the classical one. However, Western Armenian is different not only by the usage of classical orthography but, more importantly, by grammar, syntax, and vocabulary.--Davit Saroyan (WMAM) (talk) 10:25, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Logistics to consider[edit]

@Davit Saroyan (WMAM) and Azniv Stepanian: Start considering some logistics that you may want to put in place on hywiki. These items would likely be true (albeit structured slightly differently) whether an hywwiki is created directly or whether things move into Incubator first. For example:

  • For a while, you'll want to place a notice/link on the Main Page.
  • There may be other Project: and Help: namespace pages where you'll want to take this into consideration.
  • On the current duplicated pages: I notice that there are links back and forth. Is that handled by a transcluded template, or by text in each article? Especially if it's handled by a template, I surely wouldn't get rid of the template so fast; there is no reason not to simply change the template to make sure it points to the right (new) place.
    • I think if you change the Western-to-Eastern links now to read [[:hy:xxx]] instead of [[xxx]], then they'll continue to work correctly now—and when the Western content is extracted the links will still work correctly.
    • Once the Western content is extracted, change the Eastern-to-Western links to read [[:hyw:xxx]] instead of [[xxx]].
  • Anything else you can think of that would make it easier for your current community to transition smoothly.

Once this is done, please start thinking about whether there should be two Wiktionaries (and similarly on the other projects), and whether any of them have enough Western content to create free-standing projects, or whether they should spin out to Incubator instead. (It may be that having a single project, especially for WB and WQ, is a better approach. If so, we can set up redirects so that hyw.wiki*.org redirects to hy.wiki*.org.) StevenJ81 (talk) 15:19, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, such migration at least require xml files that include **the history of** those articles. Is there any people who is making/made/plans to make? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 09:11, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@StevenJ81: thanks so much for your valuable comments and recommendations. I opened a discussion on the village pump of Armenian Wikipedia wth the requests to:
  • Place a notice on the sitenotice and other Western Armenian-related projects and help pages.
  • Discuss the link change in the Western-Eastern Armenian templates.
  • Comment on what they'd like from your side to make the transition more smoothly.
  • Think about the need of having a separate Wiktionary for the Western Armenian language. Currently there is almost no content in Western Armenian on hy.wiktionary or other projects. If the Western Armenian community wants to have separates projects, I'll suggest them to open a project on Incubator. I believe there is no need for redirects, as the Armenian Wiktionary is almost completely written in Eastern Armenian. The redirects would make a confusion: the Western Armenian editors would think Wiktionary should also be in Western Armenian and start creating duplicate pages/definitions. This, in turn, will make Wiktionary's case similar to Wikipedia's case which no one wants to happen. --Davit Saroyan (WMAM) (talk) 11:26, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Kareyac, ԱշոտՏՆՂ, Nikki, and Jura1: I heard that on Wikidata, those Western Armenian articles are linked separately in items that says instance of (P31) Wikimedia permanent duplicated page, any ideas on migration on Wikidata? --180.97.68.248 23:23, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I will do all necessary changes on Wikidata with by bot after the creation of Western Armenian Wikipedia.--ԱշոտՏՆՂ (talk) 00:27, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to all above. @Davit Saroyan, I'm going to assume that any other Western Armenian project should be started fresh in Incubator. Note to the community: It would now be reasonable for the [Eastern] Armenian Wiktionary to have entries for Western Armenian words, and vice versa. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:39, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi everyone, I had a look at the Eastern Armenian Wiktionary and if needed I can start copying and translating into Western Armenian if we decide to set up a hyw version.

I'm also thinking "out loud" here but in regards to the side bar for selecting western or eastern can we make sure that both options will be next to each other? Also, should the option be titled Արեւմտահայերէն Western Armenian or Հայերէն (արեւմտեան) Armenian (western)?

I think we need to consider how options such as these are presented and they shouldn't look too different if that makes sense. Especially when in Armenian the two vernaculars are not spelt with capital letters - that's why I think the Հայերէն (արեւմտեան) option should be considered. armeniki (talk) 11:11, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Armeniki: Please, translate interface messages at translatewiki.net. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:59, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Liuxinyu970226: Hi there, I tried to go on the Translatewiki page but my normal Wiki login doesn't work and it's not letting me create an account there? armeniki (talk) 22:58, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Liuxinyu970226: Hi again, OK I figured it out - I needed to go to the main WikiTranslate site to create an account. I didn't need to do that before when translating the Armenian Articles. The site asked me to do some basic/preliminary translations, which I have done, and am now waiting to be "approved" by the translation admin(s). I'll get started once that's done. Cheers. armeniki (talk) 00:24, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Updates as at June 2018[edit]

Hi everyone, I have not seen any activity on this page for quite some time. I have spent a considerable amount of time translating (as have a couple of other people) and I just wanted to get an idea of where we are at? We should aim to set some milestones for this project as well to help keep things moving. armeniki (talk) 03:41, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Armeniki: We're working on language verification now. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:38, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Amire80: Can you please put in good links to those lists of articles? Thanks. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:38, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@StevenJ81: Great, thanks! armeniki (talk) 05:04, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Updates August 2018[edit]

Now that more months have passed by, can we have an updated summary progress report of just where we are now in the process of creating the new Western Armenian Wikipedia at http://hyw.wikipedia.org . What has been achieved till now after initial approval was obtained in January 2018, what is still being worked at till the launch, what needs to be done further for a successful launching. For example why don't we still have any test pages in hyw.wikipedia.org at https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/hyw . Perhaps transferring of already existing Western Armenian articles now in Armenian Wikipedia is problematic and issues need to be tackled. But why can't we be allowed at least to create some test pages for titles not presently existing in Western Armenian sections of the Armenian Wikipedia anyway? To prove viability of the new project, I say let's start creating new materials here directly. I would be ready to produce a 100 or 200 test articles in Western Armenian here after double checking that they don't presently exist in the present Armenian Wikipedia. Surely that could be conntemplated almost immediately and give a needed boost to this new worthwhile project Werldwayd (talk) 14:43, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In principle, I don't have a problem with that, and if you want to start creating content on Incubator at incubator:Wp/hyw, you can. Still, my understanding is that LangCom is currently trying to find an unbiased expert to verify that the content being contemplated for the project is legitimately in Western Armenian. (This is standard procedure for all projects that are the first in a given language.) Once that is complete, the project will be approved, and content will start being moved. Let me see where that is, and I'll respond here. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:01, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My mother tongue is strictly Western Armenian. So my proposed content will definitely be in literary Western Armenian in completely original material articles and not duplications or copies of presently existing articles. But I will respect your official go ahead and refrain from starting creating these test articles (without duplication as I explained) till I receive a clear approval. Frankly I prefer creating them here in Western Armenian Wikipedia in a bid to give boost to this project rather than just adding materials in main page where we already have like 6000 articles in Western Armenian. Werldwayd (talk) 15:36, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi everyone, good to hear that we're moving along. I have mostly been working on translating the GUI stuff (buttons, system prompts, etc) but have also translated a few articles. I am happy to help with vetting any existing Western Armenian articles so that they can be transferred across. I think it's important to do this as I have come across a few articles that were supposedly in Western Armenian but were actually Eastern Armenian, albeit spelled in classical instead of soviet spelling. I will keep working on translating the interface. armeniki (talk) 05:03, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Armeniki: Thank you for working on the interface. That's very important; keep doing it!
@Werldwayd: I have received no further response on the LangCom list about language verification. So as much as I'm not thrilled about it, I'm going to open up the possibility of new pages being created on Incubator. However, in order to prevent total chaos from reigning when we finally create the Western Armenian Wikipedia, I'm going to set some unusual guidelines. My initial thinking is this:
  • That contributors should always check for a Western Armenian version of a page on Armenian Wikipedia first. If such a page exists, contributors should work on the page there, and not create a "competing" version on Incubator.
  • If no such page exists, contributors can freely create pages either within Armenian Wikipedia or on Incubator.
  • When Western Armenian Wikipedia is created, if there are "competing" mainspace pages on a topic, the one in Armenian Wikipedia will be the one moved to the Western Armenian project. (Exception: it is a stub and there is a full-length page at Incubator. But see point one; I hope not to see this happen.)
  • If there are duplicate categories, contents can be merged, certainly.
  • Tricky part will be with templates. I guess if pages in Incubator need templates, you'll create/copy what you need from elsewhere, like anyone else does. But, again, when hywwiki is created, if there are duplicates, the ones at hywiki will be the ones moved. So create as little infrastructure on Incubator as you can.
Any responses to this before I proceed? StevenJ81 (talk) 16:32, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is excellent StevenJ81. The rules are very logical and needed for eventual compatibility. Allowing edits in incubator will move this project forward faster and make launch of Western Armenian Wikipedia more imminent. But the rules need to be reproduced and highlighted in a more visible main area than just on the talk page here. I will start creating Western Armenian pages here. My initial aim is about 100 unique articles here in Incubator. Werldwayd (talk) 19:00, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You are wrong to say that these edits will make the launch of Western Armenian Wikipedia more imminent. That project will be approved when and only when someone verifies that the contents are actually in Western Armenian. But if they're really not, then the project would in fact be far from approval.
In any event, give me one more day to set this up. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:11, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just as a specimen, I have now created two articles in Western Armenian which are not found in Armenian Wikipedia's Western Armenian page. These are https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/hyw/%D5%80%D5%A1%D5%B5_%D4%B1%D6%82%D5%A5%D5%BF%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%A1%D5%AF%D5%A1%D5%B6_%D4%B5%D5%AF%D5%A5%D5%B2%D5%A5%D6%81%D5%AB about the Armenian Evangelical Church (in Western Armenian, as presently it only exists in Eastern Armenian language despite its importance) and https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/hyw/%D4%BA%D5%B8%D6%80%D5%AA_%D5%88%D6%82%D5%A1%D5%BD%D5%BD%D5%B8%D6%82%D6%86 about Syrian Lebanese singer George Wassouf The latter doesn't exist neither in Eastern Armenian nor in Western Armenian. Werldwayd (talk) 22:55, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Werldwayd: Rules have now also been posted at incubator:Wp/hyw. Feel free to add a Western Armenian translation of them. (They can actually be found at incubator:Template:Wp/hyw. If you know wikicode, add an <hr /> after the English version and add your translation. Otherwise, just put in on my talk page (there) and I will add it. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:42, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@StevenJ81: You are doing admirable work and this is very much appreciated. I have now translated for you the rules and regulations of the Western Armenian Wikipedia that you had created on incubator:Template:Wp/hyw Here is my Western Armenian translation of your text that you can use on the same page Check my translation at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Werldwayd/Articles-Test1001 I trust you to post it yourself as this will show your posting data whereas had I posted it myself my user name would have appeared... Werldwayd (talk) 20:24, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Done StevenJ81 (talk) 21:52, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

January 2019[edit]

Hi everyone, I just wanted to say how happy I am that this project has now been approved. Well done everyone! I'm happy to have been a part of this great effort. I look forward to building our new site. Շնորհաւոր: armeniki (talk) 04:35, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

March 2019[edit]

Unfortunately, the process of creating this wiki (or, indeed, any new wiki) has been stalled for a couple of months now, because a crucial maintenance script is broken and needs to be fixed before the wiki can actually be created. Further discussion here will not help that effort, so just Please Stand By and it will eventually happen. - dcljr (talk) 00:45, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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