Requests for new languages/Wiktionary Masry

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Masry Wiktionary[edit]

main page Requests for new languages (Wiktionary Masry)
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Egyptian Arabic (Masry) as a language is spoken by more than 70 million people in Egypt and other countries, it has ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-3 Codes which is arz , Wikipedia Egyptian Arabic would be providing the information to speakers of Egyptian Arabic and Wiktionary Egyptian arabic will be giving definitions to words in Masry (Egyptian Arabic).It should be also providing some information about Pronunciation (Using IPA mostly ), Etymology ,Genders , plurals as well as verbs declention ,synonyms, antonyms and translations and whenever needed pictures are inserted .

Wiktionary Masry also has entries in other languages (Arabic, English, French, Romanian and many more ); but no matter to which language the words belong, This is the Masry Wiktionary that aims at describing all words of all languages using definitions and descriptions in Masry (Egyptian Arabic/arz).

Masry Language is the language of this wiktionary.Ghaly 14:47, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

When I proposed the Masry wikipedia I used the English name Egyptian Arabic so anyone who will read it will know which language I am talking about , Yet most of the Time it was mentioned as Wikipedia Masry and the name Masry became more known in the Meta community ,When I proposed this wiktionary project I put Masry as it is the Native name not the English name , If you notice on Egyptian Arabic wikipedia it is Written Wikipedia Masry (ويكيبيديا مصرى), that is why I proposed it in the name that is going to be used not the English name that is not used much on the wikipedia or the wiktionary.

Description of Masry[edit]

Egyptian Arabic (Ma مصرى) is a variety of the Arabic language of the Semitic branch of the Afro-Asiatic language family [1] .

Arguments in favour[edit]

  • Support During working on the project for wikipedia Masry, it became apparent the need for Wiktionary Masry as this will be of help to anyone speaking Masry to know the translation of the words they use to other languages. Ghaly 13:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Support,standardization of the spelling is an issue that has come up recently when i started editing the Wikipedia Masry. Egyptian is the spoken language of 70,000,000 people and there is a great deal of controversion on how shall we write the language

therefore an Egyptian Masry Wikitionary will give guidelines and set rules for a unified system of writing. --Ramsis1978 20:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Support .By the admission of everyone who is involved in this discussion, Masry is different from Arabic. The opposition say that the main differences are in some grammar and some words, This proposal is meant to give definition to those words. E.g. Table ,Lamp, Telephone, Shrimp, computer, shoe and many more all of them has different name in Masry to the one used in Arabic. A wiktionary is needed to provide meaning of these terms to Masry users in a consistent way, this is what is meant by the word standadization when used in this discussion. --Ghaly 12:49, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
  • I support the project & I'm willing to contribute. Standardization can be through wiktionary, because it would be a tested reference. At least it can standardize the spelling in Wikipedia.--Mahmudmasri 07:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Support --FadyWalker 11:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Support phonetical (Latin) script with Arabic script. --Budelberger 18:42, 10 December 2008 (UTC) (Flag of France.svg).

Arguments against[edit]

  • Ramsis said : * standardization of the spelling is an issue that has come up recently when i started editing the Wikipedia Masry. Egyptian is the spoken language of 70,000,000 people and there is a great deal of controversion on how shall we write the language

therefore an Egyptian Masry Wikitionary will give guidelines and set rules for a unified system of writing.

how did you say that egyptian accent is written language and now you want to standarize it.. is that the task of wikimedia project ... have you created before an organization to put rules for ur artificial language --Chaos 09:26, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

  • I agree with Chaos. Wikimedia projects are for the spreading of Knowledge freely, It is not for making "Standardization", nor it is for making Wikiduplicates. On The Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia, Latin Alphabet have been used to write some articles, they also used what appears to be Greek or Slavic Alphabet, This is Original Research.--Mohammed Ahmed 11:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Also There is a small group of words that could be as "Egyptian Arabic words". 98% of the words in the Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia are just pure Arabic. Egyptian Arabic is a variety of the Arabic language, that is the definition written in the English Wikipedia. But on the Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia it became a separate language of it's own.--Mohammed Ahmed 11:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

  • Please See this example article [2] it is about Tvs : Television. I know it is small and tiny but this is just to explore the features of this "language". This small stub could be read in Arabic normally. It does not contain any word that would indicate that it is written in Egyptian Arabic.--Mohammed Ahmed 18:34, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
  • The example article above has been developed. Now there is one word which make it appear like if it was written in Egyptian Arabic. As said by the supporters themselves "there is a great deal of controversion on how we shall write the "language"" They want to make a standardization via Wikitionary. And I ask what a language of 70 million speakers (as they say) it does not have a standardized writing system until now!!!. I think making this standardization on Wikitioanry is with no doubt Original Research.--Mohammed Ahmed 00:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
  • You can't write a dictionary for a language that has no standards. Also don't say that you will make that standards, because, due all respect, who are you? I mean, this is a wiki, anyone can edit it, without standards (which you will not make it), the whole thing will become a war between two sides each one of them believes he is right and the other is false. Let's see, for instance, Arabic language, it has standards as there is the Academy of the Arabic Language in Cairo and Damascus. They (the academies) make the standards of Arabic language, so if any two editors in Arabic Wikitionary argued about an entry, there is a reference that anyone can refer to and solve the problem. I don't think there is an academy for the Masry Language.
Another thing, not because this supposed language has an ISO code makes it a real language, as it was said above (and below) it's a dialect. If anyone read the Egyptian Constitution, the second subject of it says 'الاسلام دين الدولة، واللغة العربية لغتها الرسمية' or 'Islam is the religion of the country, and Arabic is it's official language'. That's enough for now. --MickeyMouse 15:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
  • On the Wikiduplicate Situation, [Here is an article http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/arz/%D8%A7%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B6_%D8%A8%D8%AA%D8%AA%D9%86%D9%82%D9%84_%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%83%D8%B3] the user who created this article transliterated the word "Sex" instead of using the proper Arabic translation جنس. The word جنس is used in Arabic and Egyptian Arabic (No one can deny that), but this is just an example for things taking place on this 2 wikis. I know that what I said is about the Wikipedia, but I am trying to prove the Kind Of Original Research being done over there. Also the Name of this Wiki should be ويكي قاموس like the Arabic project, but the Supporters do not want that. So they decided to use the transliteration. It is just a variety of Arabic. But the Supporters prefer to call it "Modern Egyptian Language" which is only used be a tiny group of the Egyptian Cultured society, for the irony, Someone over theere suggested that the name should be "New Egyptian Language". What sort of Sources are used to support such claims about the Egyptian Arabic being a language in the first place? By the way if you tried to translate the two previous terms it will be the same in Arabic and Egyptian Arabic. So this Wikitionary was created to "standardize" words for Egyptian Arabic. A wiki to do Standardization!!! What is that? The Creation of Wikipedia for Egyptian Arabic was a mistake. Because it is just a dialect of Arabic. When some wiki users come to do "standardization" on wikis, It is considered Original Research. It is also a surprise that there is no Institution adopting this "language". Because I saw here a Wikipedia request for a Macrolanguage, however it hasv an Institution.--Mohammed Ahmed 23:30, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
  • With all due respect to people who are working on the so-called "masry" projects and trying to issue new editions of more Wikimedia projects after the Wikipedia projects has passed through (and I don't want to get into this now) but making another mistake of a Masry project is simply nonsense, the variation as a language simply doesn't exist, NO formal publication uses it, NO one even in street banners uses it. Everyone and I mean it when I say everyone uses standard Arabic which is currently in use by Ar.wp when they're making a formal event, newspaper, scientific book, study, a government paper and any other clear example of using a proper define language in any country. I'd like to know if, for example, Masry has some kind of grammar or is it like a language by the people! remember, a language is not a wiki --Mido 17:56, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Mido, I really did not get your point, especially in the last few phrases.I can see you are making the same baseless generalizations made by previous opponents. could you please be less self-righteous and more dialectic. Are you one hundred percent sure that there is not a single book published in Egypt in Masry? I really wonder how some people have there eyes wide open yet they cannot see, have their ears and their tongues hearing and talking in Masry and at the same time, denying its mere existence.Did you ever read en:Ahmed Fouad Negm poetry? in what language it is written? is it in classical Arabic or in something else!!thank you anyway for your contribution to the discussion although it was irrelevant to the page that discusses the creatin of a dictionary and focused mainly on trying to refute a self-evident fact , that is the exitence of Masry as a language.--Ramsis II 06:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
To Ramsis, I have to say that The ISO page of Egyptian Arabic is stating the fact that Egyptian Arabic is a spoken language. The call for a Wikitionary to "Standarize". I see that as Original Research. Not to mention the sample articles you made with Latin and greek Alphabet. And Ghaly himself - who proposed the wiki - he said the "Slang of Egypt".--Mohammed Ahmed 11:47, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
  • slang words are listed in most of Modern dictionaries. This is including the English wiktionary and vulgarities.Moreover, here is an example of an offensive Arabic word that is listed in wikiKAMOUS and none of you has called it an original research because as far I know it was never listed in any the classical MOJAMs and not used in formal governmental meeting and obviously not in street banners.--Ramsis II 12:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
You seemed to know about languages. The example you mentioned from the Arabic WikiQamos, the word is mentioned in Lesan Al-Arab, which is known to be a major Arabic dictionary. It is an old dictionary too, written in the 13 Century. The word does not only take the offensive meaning. It is very good that you mentioned the English slang words, well, they are in the English Wikitionary, not in a separate project.--Mohammed Ahmed 16:55, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Slang poetry is not a reliable source you can refer to Ramsis, I did not deny in anyway that that spoken langauge exist and I myself of course talk in it, BUT writing an encyclopedia or writing a dictionary from scratch is a totally different thing. Wikimedia projects are not a sandbox for your trials. you can simply go and make your own wiki and write whatever you want. Attaching those projects with Wikimedia will ruin its creditability. and by the way I see the discussion here itself is irrelevant, you want to standardize a language, simply that's not the place to be. --Mido 19:19, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
    • I couldn't believe that wikimedia agreed to make a wikipedia version of redundant language in Arabic, please stop this wasting of time and effort, please stop this Farce --heshamdiab16
    • I am not sure whether anyone has rasied this point before or not, but anyways, is there Wikiengilish (American accent)/Wiktionary (American accent) and another Wikienglish (British accent)/Wiktionary (British accent), I am afraid the same applies on Wikiarabic (Masri accent) it is an arabic accent, not a language by itself.195.229.241.174 15:06, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I have an example for an article in the Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia: w:arz:تولورانسيه, they have transletrated the word "tolerance" instead of using a simple word, a word that can be said easilly if you speak the dialect. Is not that an Origiana Research? Why did they do that? And let it be acknowledged that the User who proposed the wiki has put some sentences in the welcome message for each user saying that Egyptian Arabic is not a slang, and he says that it is not inadequate nor weak, this comes in contrast with his own words here, look up in this page, finding him saying "Egyptian Slang".--Mohammed Ahmed 17:15, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
  • the Page is all about the creation of Masry Wiktionary not about Masry Wikipedia!!which part exactly in this sentence that you don't understand?!!

--Ramsis II 19:36, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

  • We are speaking about the "language". And this is a proposal for a dictionary to "Standarize" in the wiki. Becuase I am an Egyptian, it is the first time that I hear and see this word تولرانسية, and actually it took a while to know what it means. And the list for things like this goes on. This is really exposing the amount of Original Research in this 2 wikis. And by the way, on working on the Wikitionary of yours, how many Arabic loan words have you counted so far in the Egyptian Arabic dialect?--Mohammed Ahmed 20:09, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
  • the Page is all about the creation of Masry Wiktionary .It is not discussing your personal viewpoints about the Masry language and whether it qualifies as a language or not.It is not discussing Masry Wikipedia either!!which part exactly in this sentence that you don't understand?!!
  • Regarding your quiry about the percentage of Arabic loanwords Please hold your breath and wait for a while as the Masry Wiktionary is growing up every day and the developers are showing an increasing interst to contribute towards its enrichment.--Ramsis II 13:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Ok, search the whole web [3] the word I mentioned "تولورانسيه" it does not exist, you invented it. Is not that an Original Research? As for my viewpoint of Egyptian Arabic, Ghaly who proposed the 2 wikis said it himself "Egyptian Slang" and "Simple Arabic". The example I mentioned has all to do with wikitionary, because you can't use the wiki to invent new words like this, and you can't use it to standarize the slang.--Mohammed Ahmed 21:38, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Still you are snatching words from Masry Wikipedia and trying to use it as an argument against an independent wikiproject i.e. Masry wiktionary.I really wonder if you understand what this page is really all about? I did not really want to refute your argument because it is irrelevant to the page , but on a second thought. I have decided to explain to you why this word was introduced to the wikipedia ( ASSUMING GOOD FAITH from your side.)
  • Tolerance in english or other language is a term that describes certain attitude towards relgious minorities, and it has developed in historical context in Europe due to the church opression and subjugation of all civil activities. 1517, "permission granted by authority, license," from M.Fr. tolération (15c.), from L. tolerationem (nom. toleratio) "a bearing, supporting, enduring," from toleratus, pp. of tolerare "to tolerate, lit. "to bear" (see extol). Meaning "forbearance, sufferance" is from 1582. Religious sense is from Act of Toleration, statute granting freedom of religious worship (with conditions) to dissenting Protestants in England, 1689.
now that you know what Tolerance means, I think it is fair enough not to search for an equivalnt term to translate it and the best translation would be transliteration.Likwise you cann't translate Democracy or Dictatorship or Empire in anything else but ديموقراطيه ، ديكتاتوريه ، امبراطوريه.I hope this time you will try to read and take your time in trying to understand what is written before you give your final Judgment of value and call me bluffing like you did before.--Ramsis II 03:32, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
    • The example mentioned abobe is from the wikipedia not the wiktionary , and the word mentioned is used among educated Masry speakers, however, the article has been changed now to carry the title that more Masry speakers would be familiar with , which is w:arz:استحمال.
  • We may judge those who didn't learn arabic well in schools. The people of wikipedia should see the "language crimes" wikipedia masri did..they can't be palanced at typing and words.second would you like an english dialect to be a"language", and now what? a wikitionary to those who try to bury languages alive..wikipedia should see it with a deep look.. because soon it'll be the "free languages destruction encyclopedia". not mentioning google knob will be more famous for what wikipedia have done.

I am more than happy to answer any comments about the wikipedia , but I thought this proposal was about a wiktionary, Isn't it?!!! ..--Ghaly 12:40, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Our concentration should be on the arabic wikipedia, which wouldn't exist if each group of people decided to commit to their dialect. Wikipedia is best exploited as a platform for knowledge (and not racial or national pride) - and if this effort had been put into the arabic wikipedia it would be much better for everyone. 86.14.106.237 19:39, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

  • Since this "rubbish" is still there. I would like to say that in a very slang Arabic you would not say "الساتت" you will say "السادس" meaning "the six" just like Standard Arabic. But those in this two projects tend to do what ever the can to differentiate their "language" from Arabic.--Mohammed Ahmed 19:59, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose Masry entries should go to the arabic wikitionary. Kanzler31 22:12, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Other discussion[edit]

  • This page is discussing the creation of Masry wiktionary and any argument or comments regarding the Egyptian Wikipedia are irrelevant to this page and should be discussed somewhere else. Standardization of the spelling is an issue that rose due to the fact that Egyptian had been a spoken language for so many centuries and Only recently it has started to be written in form of Poetry, Plays, Short stories and novels. The novelty of writing system is not the same as Novelty of language itself and should not be used as an argument against the existence of any language. There are hundreds , perhaps thousands, of languages that had never known any form of writing system. Most scientists assume that languages have existed long time before their writing systems were ever created or invented. This current situation of the Ehyptian Masry language is not new and would not be the last time you come across a spoken language that has spelling issues. Could any one give a reasonable justification for hundreds of words that are being used in every day life in Egypt and not accounted or documented in any of the available standardized classical Arabic dictionaries.

Masry wiktionary is not a political project and hopes not to be misunderstood as such. The spread of knowledge and documentation as well as spelling standardization of a language all fall in the realm of science and should not be misinterpreted in any other way. We are calling upon any one to contribute to this Wiktionary and view the sample pages that have been already written.

  • User:Mohammed Ahmedhas claimed that 98% of the words in Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia are just pure Arabic, and we can extend his assumption and ask, do you really mean that 98% of the Masry vocabulary is pure Arabic? if you have any statistics in this regard, please put them forward because the exact percentage is not known and might go as low as 30 to 40% [2]. here is a few examples of words that are purly Egyptian تاتا،إديني،جاي،بنها،دمنهور،طوب،امبو،هاتور ،بابة،امشير،شنة و رنة،شوطة،كمان،عنتيل،خربق،طرشق،شلفط،استنا .He as well as, every one who knows Masry is well aware of the fact that Egyptian words of Arabic origin have been dramatically changed in the way they are pronounced, they are placed in sentences (words order)as well as their meanings. The Masry word for Arm (دراع), can be traced back to the Arabic word (ذراع) but:
  • the pronunciation has been changed with the omission of Inter-dental non-Egyptian letter ذ, and using its Masry equivalent د
  • the gender has been changed (masculine in Masry and feminine in Arabic)There are handfull of more examples of the same changes that have been introduced to Arabic words in order to fall within and be assimiliated into the Egyptian(masry). Thank you all for contributing to this dicussion.--Ramsis II 12:23, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
  • User:Mohammed Ahmed was mencing irrelevent statements, claiming that Masri has 98% of pure Arabic, while this is disinformating.--Mahmudmasri 07:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
  • If Anybody wants to know the percentage of Arabic Words in the Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia or Wikitionary, we can examine articles from those two wikis. And you can't make a standardization for any thing via Wikipedia. It might go as 30 to 40% this totally wrong.

Another thing is using a Latin Alphabet system, and some other systems for writing Egyptian Arabic, Is Wikipedia a place to do that kind of experiments?--Mohammed Ahmed 12:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

  • this argument is irrelevant to the Wiktionary discussion, and i am asking all the users to please stick to the subject of this discussion page, which the Wiktionary Masry creation.You have said that 30 to 40% is totally wrong, Please show us what is right in the form of verifiable refrences.I did not say 30-40% is right, what i said was quite clear, There are not enogh data and there is a wide range of assumptions and speculation regarding the exact percentage and the above mentioned refrence was given just to show how far some of these statistcs have gone in their estimation while you said that 98% of the Egyptian vocabulary is pure arabic with absolute unscientific certainity. Thanks--Ramsis II 20:24, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
  • An other argument my be about the usage of English transliterated words in this two wikis. For an example "Wikitionary" was transliterated to "ويكيشناري" instead of translation "ويكي قاموس" like the Arabic name for that project. The Word قاموس Camos means dictionary and when I talk in Arabic or Egyptian Arabic or any other Arabic dialect it will be قاموس as it is.--Mohammed Ahmed 12:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
  • I really wonder what makes you think that WIKIQAMOS is more arabic and more authentic than Wiktionary, Please check the exat etymolgy of the word Qamos here[4] which sheds some light on the Greek origin of the word Qamos.If you think wiktionary is not a proper translation, then i think you should change the name of WikiQamos into WIKIMOAJAM for sake of consistency because the word Moajam is genuinely arabic word and the PURELY arabic translation of Wiktionary.On the other hand, why do you think that (ويكشيناري)is not proper when you have transliterated Wikiepdia into( ويكيبيديا العربية) instead of wikiMawsoaa (ويكي موسوعة)which the proper translation of encylopedia in arabic?..Just a few questions for consistency purposes only. Thanks--Ramsis II 20:24, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
@Ramsis : most of the example words that you have mentioned couldnt be used in encyclopedic contents ... they have been used in lteral works ... moreover you said there is no statistics .. that because ur great language has no dictionary till now ... is it possible for language spoken by more than 70 millions or more that has no dictionary written before ..which language is this ??? and now on Wikimedia you wanna get free forum to establish your first trial to write this dictionary... I will respect ur efforts if you are really serious and you write real dictionary for what you call egyptian ... and by the way ... can you lead me to on news resource on the web written by ur language --Chaos 14:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
  • The words I have mentioned are not intended to be used in the wikipedia, again, This page is all about the Masry wiktionary and not about the Masry wikipedia. peronsally, I tend to believe that any word deserve to be dicionarizedwhether it is a slang or not.Most modern Dictionaries now are listing offensive words and curses in their languages, slang expressions and indioms and No one has the right to choose which word to be listed which to be not in modern dictionaries.I am not only SERIOUS but alos ready and able to contribute to the MASRY wiktionary and i am calling upon all of you to lend us a hand in this regard whether you are native speakers of masry or not.This project is not intended to be against any one and aims at the spread of knowledge in the true spirit of the wikimedia foundation. Regards--Ramsis II 20:24, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep on it Ramsis. See the German Wikiwörterbuch! French Wiktionnaire and the Persian ویکی‌واژه. They are all different from each other. So you decided to make it a transliteration instead of translation, Why did you do that? Is it to differentiate it from Arabic?. Sure, we can use the Term معجم Mo instead of قاموس Qamos. But قاموس is Arabic too. The Word Wikipedia is used by all versions of Wikipedia. It was not translated. An other example might be that you transliterated Links into لينكات instead of using Simple words like روابط or وصلات those two words can be used easily by any Egyptian, they are used in the Arabic Wikipedia. All of this surely indicate that Egyptian Arabic is just a variety of Arabic (a dialect in the Egyptians own words).--Mohammed Ahmed 20:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Languages are dynamic bodies and static ones, There is not such thing as PURE language, each and every human language have borrowed and lended word from and to other languages (loan words), here is an analytical example of loanwords in Modern English language:
  • French language and Norman language, including Old French, Old Norman, Anglo-French and Anglo-Norman: 28.3%
  • Latin, including modern scientific and technical Latin: 28.24%
  • Germanic languages, including Old English language and Middle English: 25%
  • Greek language: 5.32%
  • No etymology given or unknown: 4.03%
  • Derived from proper nouns: 3.28%
  • All other languages contributed less than 1%
These loanwords are enriching the living languages and it is becoming a common feature in our modern times.The same thing applies to Arabic as well as Masry, there always had been and there will always be loanwords continuouly incorporated into these languages.امبيرالية،راديو،مهرجان،قاموس،بستان،استبرق،جهنم،داود،ابراهيم،يوسف،موسيقا are just few examples of foreign words that are considered now fully arabized some are in preIslamic times and some are not known before modern times. It is all about time and only time can tell if a foreign word will be fully integrated in or rejected by living languages.Thanks--Ramsis II 21:31, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Stop bluffing would you. English is a completely different matter.Egyptian Arabic is a variety of Arabic. You people do not seem to accept that (and even if you do) It still a wikiduplicate. I do not really need a statistics to prove my claims, by the way, would translate the word "statistics" into your "language"? It will be إحصائية same as Arabic, and it will be the same with all the Arabic dialects. On the other discussion, Some one tried to compare between Arabic and Latin, (Emglish, French, ... and the dialects of Arabic. I will say get a French man and let him talk to an Italian. To what degree will they be able to understand each other? They won't. Get an Egyptian to talk with a Syrian or an Algerian, those will understand each other. Because they are talking dialects of Arabic.--Mohammed Ahmed 00:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Italians & Spaniards can actually understand each other quite well, especially if they speak slowly. French pronunciation is very different from the other Latin-based languages, which makes it hard to understand. In general, speakers of any Latin-based language can also get a general understanding of texts written in other Latin-based languages (except Romanian). Compare this to someone speaking, say, pure Moroccan to an illiterate Egyptian. Neither would understand each other, and if neither were educated enough to switch to Classical Arabic, it would be very difficult to communicate because the languages have diverged so much in the past 1400 years. --75.153.91.92 09:19, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Upper Egyptian and Saiidi Egyptian[edit]

nice comment from En WP talkpage about Egyptian Arabic --Chaos 19:24, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


nice to see you zerida swapping places, once you were defending egyptian arabic's independence from arabic proper, and now you're facing saidi arabic's independence from both arabic proper and egyptian arabic, you once said yourself that one can't understand upper egyptians talking, and I certainly don't. it's a different language then.
in fact, saidi arabic is alot different from egyptian arabic, they pronounce the ق as g , and pronounce the ج as j ( as in arabic proper ), and they use different words for indicating future intention, like عنجول (aangool) instead of هنئول (han'ool) for egyptian arabic and سنقول (sanaqool) for arabic proper for example, and I guess letter pronounciations differences was one of your reasons for taking the egyptian dialect as a language of its own ! now face that , saidi arabic pronounce letters differently too, they use different vocabulary, wow, that does make it a language on its own too, doesn'it?
and anyway, doesn't saiid (upper egypt) represent egypt proper more than cairo and delta? I mean all your pharaoh ancestry existed in upper egypt, nothing whatsoever related to cairo or delta, egyptian arabic proper should be the saidi one not the cairine one, because cairo is mainly a city established by the arabs, al-fostat city - the new capital of egypt founded by jawhar al-seqely instead of good-old teiba, and al-fostat has since then became the capital of the arab state in egypt, which was later renamed to cairo, remember? or they don't teach this kind of history at your coptic church?
so you should stick more to upper egyptian, that's your true ancestry and all the pharaohic glory and stuff, but hey , they DO pronounce the arabic proper ج as J in upper egypt, sohaj you know is not sohag for example, amazing, how could this be possible when one of your claims for closeness of egyptian arabic more to coptic rather than arabic proper was that ancient egyptians didn't actually know the letter J so they prounounced it G instead? guess what, modern pharaohs in upper egypt DO know what the letter J is, yet the mixure of arabs, kazakhistanis, french, english, persians, lybians, saudis, egyptians proper, moroccans, iraqis, turks, lebanese, syrians, mongols, sudanis, yemenis, nubians, ( what else? can't remember all of them! ) that form the modern day cairo and delta society pronounce G instead of J unlike upper egyptians ( egyptians proper ) !
any way, I know you're a fanatic, and I won't be replying here, just wanted to make stuff clear for those passer bys that read stuff in this page and take it for facts, well, they're not facts, they're just fictions of some group of coptic christian neo-nazis that fantasy modern egypt as a place of their own, and the rest of the egyptian people are filthy invaders that should be kicked away !
good luck, since you read this far, the message is through, it's ok to work your reversion magic now!

41.233.46.9 (talk) 15:58, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

What I can say but this is punsh of randomness!!!! Upper Egypt is the true Egypt!!?? Through all of history Egypt was made by two upper and lowr Egypt

!! The reason why temple are in very south of Egypt was to represent Egypt long control, power and border. Maney more temples were built in lower Egypt but they were destroyed and only few remains; lower Egypt was the side of Egypt that faces the most invasions, the pyramids are in lower Egypt yopu forgot that??? some of its breakes were taken to build structure like mosques but thank god it still exists. you forgot about memphis?? btw, upper Egypt are the worst because many of them are mixed with blacks and nubians; Egyptian origanaly were north african and near eastern. --206.248.130.59 04:47, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Running around in circles[edit]

  • As I took the initiative to put this proposal after it was suggested to me by User:Ramsis II, I would like to express one more time my strong support for wiktionary Masry project.

Most of the arguments that are presented here by the opposition are repetitive , and have been answered before more than once during the discussion on Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Egyptian Arabic , same users saying the same thing over and over again and nothing that is said will make them see the point of view of the users on Wikipedia Masry or wiktionary Masry.

Feel free to repeat yourselves many many times as much as you want , the only descent reply to all what you say is not to relpy to them but to keep on developing the projects in a language that has already been verified as eligible.

If it makes the opposers feel better , please feel free to go on and on and on about why you think and why you want and why you demand and why it should and why it should not , meanwhile, develpment of the projects are going on by volunteers who would like to write in a language they feel comfortable with and their efforts are continuing to enrich the projects. Ghaly 21:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

  • Yes, continue on developing your Wikiduplicate. Make Original Research as much as you like. We (the Opposition) shall repeat ourselves trying to clear things out here. Remember Ghaly, Wikimedia projects are not for making Original Research, what you do is certainly Original Research. You do realize that most if not all the Egyptians say لهجة مصرية Egyptian dialect. Frankly I have not heard anyone saying لغة مصرية Egyptian Language. Wikitionary is a free dictionary, it is not for making standardization for your "language". You do realize that don't you?--Mohammed Ahmed 21:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


Ghali ... I dont care if you want to write in the form or the language you like ... you are free .. we are discussing how to apply wikimedia policies on this proposal .. you couldnt through many discussions to provide us complete work written by your work .. there is no News media prodcasted by your language ..no magazines by it and you just want a wiki to standarize it .. it is better if you really loyal to that languge to publish real books to standarize and distrubute this language ..then you can make a wikimedia wiki for it ... dont be such lazy ..wikimedia projects is not for trial wikis or why we dont give the Siberian language another chance ... or even we can let every city to write its variety .. if you support such change in the policies ... then your proposals make sense --Chaos 19:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikimedia Foundation policies have been applied, as a result an Egyptian Arabic Wiktionary has been granted the eligible status. There is nothing more to discuss. GerardM 18:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Even if the polices are to be changed in favour for creating such versions of Wikipedia. It is still Original Research. On the beautiful Circles, All of you see this page from the Egyptian Arabic Wiki ملاحظات على كتب اللغة المصري باللاتيني which is an article it is about "Remarks on Writing the Egyptian language in Latin". It is extremely Original Research. Someone refers to the way that another User :Mamdouh, He invented on his own a writing system using the Latin Alphabet. They are making language experiments. What is that?--Mohammed Ahmed 18:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikiduplicate[edit]

A Wikiduplicate is a Wiki. It is written in a dialect, the Creators of this wiki will call it a "language". They will have an Article on the Wikiduplicate about their dialect, claiming that it is a "language" of it is own. While all the Other Encyclopaedias call it a dialect or a language variety.--Mohammed Ahmed 21:21, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

  • I wonder Why Mohammed Ahmed wants destruction for Masri Wiktionary project?

Running around in circles 2[edit]

  • Would the opposition please come up with a new argument as all what is mentioned here has been answered more than once during the discussion on Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Egyptian Arabic , as for the insults mentioned by User:Chaos , I think calling anyone the names you mentioned from the comment on wikipedia English is completely unacceptable , Please do not refrain to insults , make your case without that, calling the users on wikipedia and wiktionary these name is not going to get you anywhere and again it is completely unacceptable ,calling me names is not going to get you anywhere either and by the way my name is Ghaly and not as you wrote it , or do you also claim to know the way to write my name better than I do?. Ghaly 23:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


I didnt insult anybody ... that comment that I copied is just explain some problems of considering egyptian as separate language ... and most of these arguments are written by egyptians .. and sorry for calling Gali not Ghaly .. because I really thought that it doesnt matter .. maby it better to call with arabic letters غالي ... is that ok with u ?!!! --Chaos 18:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Running around in circles 3[edit]


in all these extensive discussions you couldnt provide us the name of one compelte published work in egyptian arabic ... and from reading the comments of you and your friend it is obvious that there is no rules for writting your language .. I oppose here just for the violation of the wikimedia policies .. if new policy has agreed to establish wikis for non-written non-standarized languages .. then believe me I would have no problem with creation of wikis for all arabic accents/varieties --Chaos 18:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


if I was in your place , I would work firstly either on writng and publishing real works in egyptian arbic .. or to change wikimedia policies to accept languages without sources ... then you will keep your projects away from the fate of Cyberian wikipedia --Chaos 18:36, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Running around in circles 4[edit]

Even my name written using Arabic Alphabet, the opposition got wrong ; it is (غالى) as written in my passport , as written in my Egyptian ID card, as written in my birth certificate and as written in every Egyptian official document I hold , it is not the way you wrote it. And yes the difference is only in the last letter.

Yes it is important how to write my name using any Alphabet and when writing it using Arabic Alphabet I wrote it the Egyptian way all my life, that is how important writing the Egyptian way is to me and to everyone who is writing on these projects, we are writing in our Native language using the Alphabet we are used to.

There is nothing more to discuss until the opposition comes up with something new , until they stop insulting me and calling me names , until they realise that the wikimedia policies have been implemented correctly, until they give credit to the users on the projects and until they give credit to the language subcommittee members and recognise how hard working and knowledgeable they are.

There is nothing more to discuss’’’. Ghaly 19:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Localisation update[edit]

  • Currently 99.39% of the MediaWiki messages and 88.21% of the messages of the extensions used by the Wikimedia Foundation projects have been localised. Localisation of these messages is a requirement before your request is finally assessed. This is the recent localisation activity for your language. Thanks, GerardM 13:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Thank you GerardM for reminding us of completing the translation and localization. We will work on it and complete it and i hope very soon we will have this requirement met as well.Thanks--Ramsis II 09:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


See also[edit]

References[edit]