Talk:India Program/Office Location

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Just thought to start some input discussions from the community. Kindly be civil in the discussions and the purpose of this is to help the foundation in making a decision and not lobbying for a place :) Please share your thoughts and inputs effectively. -- Tinu Cherian - 10:12, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for starting this Tinu. As I filled it in, I was struck by the relative merits of multiple cities and I think it is important to map the relative importance of each of these merits to the India Programs' importance of each. Might make it easier to process. Gkjohn 14:16, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bengaluru[edit]

(+) Plus points : A vibrant and well established Wiki community and presence of Wikipedians from multiple languages. Good relations with media houses. Seat of Wikimedia India chapter. Cost of setting up an office may be comparatively lower than other metros. (-) Minus Points : Not centrally located , Governmental haven't been much supportive. Possible operational conflicts with chapter office being at the same location. -- Tinu Cherian - 10:29, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

However Bengaluru provide a good presense of wiki community but this place is most costlier in comparison to other metro cities, travel expense and all such kind of expenses will be more, so cost is a weakest point for this place.Another weak point is attention of Govt and media.--Mayur (talkEmail) 11:22, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I havent stayed in other metros, so I cannot really comment on this. Bangalore is costly, but my impression was that it is cheaper than other cities like Mumbai / Delhi with respect to office space cost and accomodations. Media has been very supportive in Bangalore and most of the Wikipedia India news stories were driven from Bangalore. Yes Non-governmental support is a huge minus. It isn't better as of now in other cities. But Delhi may pose better interactions with the central government there. Bangalore community was non-existent till 2 years ago...It was built from scratch and this can be replicated elsewhere with the help of handful of passionate Wikipedians -- Tinu Cherian - 13:05, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bengaluru has an active multilingual Wikimedia & open source community and equally accessible for South Indians. All the South Indian languages have shown great growth in Wikimedia movement. Having the chapter here shouldn't be a problem. Over emphasis should not be given to media and Government access as ultimately we have to have a holistic plan. I think, you can find a good place in any city according to our budget. Numerous international software companies have their office here. So, that should discount the worries about logistics.--Ravidreams 16:45, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Plus point: Very good community base, probably the best in the country. Minus point:The community has predominantly people from an IT background, it is not preferable to have an admin office tagging along with the IT section, I believe they should be separate. Further, with the society registered here I think it would be better to have the office setup in another place, so we automatically have 2 setups in the country. In a country as large as ours this is will be a boon. AroundTheGlobe 05:11, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bengaluru has a very active community and the support of wonderful organizations that have supported and encouraged the Wikimedia mission in India. That alone should make it an attractive choice. On the down side, the governmental framework and support is less than ideal. Secondly, it isn't a 'central' location and if interfacing with the Government of India is important, then Bangalore might not be the ideal choice. Gkjohn 14:16, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the plus points above, particularly on the community strength, the presence of a wider FOSS community and the potential for Bangalore to be a good centre for an engineering team, if we go that route. Downside for me is the risk that we over-invest in South India (where we are relatively stronger today) and fail to invest in other regions of the country --Bnewstead 18:39, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Chennai[edit]

Community is just baby stepping here. Lack of presence of multiple language Wikipedians -- Tinu Cherian - 10:29, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No active communities and NO attention of media and Govt. circle also reflects its weakness--Mayur (talkEmail) 11:25, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Mayur, Tamil Wikimedia projects have a good growth rate among Indian Wikimedia projects. The Tamilnadu Government conducted a state wide Wikipedia essay contest for college students in 2010. It also donated technical glossaries to Tamil Wiktionary. We are still in loop with the officials in Government and if we can present a viable plan, they are always open to support the movement by all possible means. The Wikimedia community is spread state wide. Chennai has a budding Wikimedia community which can be grown like the Bengalure community. Chennai is also a hot destination for numerous software companies so most of the logistics is taken care of. --Ravidreams 16:45, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please see the community activities in Chennai.

So, the community is very good in Chennai. --Surya Prakash.S.A. 11:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hyderabad[edit]

Wikicommunity is not effectively connected as of now. -- Tinu Cherian - 10:29, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No active communities and NO attention of media and Govt. circle also reflects its weakness--Mayur (talkEmail) 11:26, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kolkata[edit]

Wikicommunity is getting active. Location is located east( Possibly accessibility issues) -- Tinu Cherian - 10:29, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No active communities and NO attention of media and Govt. circle also reflects its weakness, also as per tinu Accessibilty may be a issue--Mayur (talkEmail) 11:27, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
good copypaste comments. Thanks.Jayantanth 11:50, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mumbai[edit]

Strategically located and possibility of growth of community. Location is more central. -- Tinu Cherian - 10:29, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This place will be very costlier and possibaly here will be lack of Govt attentions--Mayur (talkEmail) 11:28, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Bangalore or Mumbai would be my choice. With Bangalore already having a wiki setup (registered office) I would tilt towards Mumbai. Would support growth of community within Mumbai, strategic location, i.e. financial capital of a country that is the 6th largest contributor to Wikimedia in terms of donations, being Corporate India's (and their philanthropic arms) biggest base, we could push for a lot more donations. I dont think cost is much of an issue, you need to choose the right location within the city and it would be comparable to other metros in India, it gets expensive when you want an office in say BKC or Nariman Point! There are lesser expensive locations like Fort (where a lot of banks have their main branch within Mumbai), Andheri (where a lot of corporates are increasingly based) among others, but that is a secondary situation once we decide on a city - my point is that Mumbai does not need to be discounted due to cost, you need to choose the the right location within the city, and I am sure this will stand for all our choices. A good mix among present community, people from varied backgrounds (though I personally feel the community is at a very nascent stage here - even though we have had large turnouts at some recent events, there is massive scope for expansion). The community needs support for this expansion and an office here would be just the right spark for that. AroundTheGlobe 05:23, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As a strategic location, Mumbai is an important one - especially for reasons of fundraising and it terms of its sheer size. Gkjohn 14:16, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Politically sensitive, high cost of real estate, has a history of physical coercion and violence against media houses. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 04:36, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Sir Nicholas. We have been advised by attorneys that authorities in Mumbai are the most active on issues of politically sensitive content. --Bnewstead 18:39, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
With regards to political sensitivity, I would tend to agree that in India as a whole political parties are more violent than in the west, more so in Mumbai, given the regional power structure. However, I have questions on the town location scores and their calculation.
  • Potential Community - why would you say Mumbai being the countrys most populous country has lesser expansion potential than other cities?
  • Proximity to Government - Why have cities such as Mumbai, Bangalore, Trivandum and Chennai, state capitals been rated similar to inner cities?
  • Proximity to Major Partners - Wouldnt you say Bangalore tops the table in this aspect?
  • Proximity to Major Media - Southern cities like Chennai (Tamil) are the heart of their local language media - if its a question of "Major" media not "National" media, surely they should score higher?
  • Open Source Community - Kerala is an open source state (even the government uses open source) - why have they been scored lower than the maximum?
  • Travel Connect - Mumbai/Delhi command about 60% of air traffic in India together - shouldnt they be rated on par?
  • Cost Efficiancy - What has been taken into A/c whiles calculating this? As I mentioned above - depends which part of the city. It is a notion that Mumbai on the whole is expensive, in fact its just a few areas. If you choose the right area the prices compare with other cities.

If they is a little more clarity on the above points maybe I will understand the reasoning behind the scores. Cheers, AroundTheGlobe 08:47, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Potential Community refers to whether it is possible to build a new community. To that extend, Mumbai already has a bigger and more active community than Delhi. Of course, there is potential to build a much bigger community in Mumbai - but the starting point for Delhi is so much lower than Mumbai.
  • Proximity to Government: refers primarily to the Central Government - and specifically entities like the HRD Ministry or the National Knowledge Commission. These can help create policy changes that could benefit the Wikimedia Movement. Having said this, the weightage for this factor has been reduced to 1.
  • Proximity to Major Media: You're absolutely right that for a Tamil Nadu, the Tamil media houses in Chennai would be regarded as major media. However, from a national perspective, places like Delhi would be able to cover all major media - including regional languages - because everyone would have some kind of bureau presence in Delhi.
  • Proximity to Partners: Actually, there appears to be a reasonable spread of potential partners between Delhi and Bengaluru. For example, Google (corporate, not software engineering) and SFLC have set ups in Delhi, and organisations like CIS have set ups in Bengaluru.
  • Open Source Community: You're absolutely right on Kerala's open source heritage. However, it's relative to the numbers of open source professionals in the city. This is borne out by the fact that someone like Red Hat is based out Pune and (I think I am right on this) Infosys in Bengaluru has one of the largest corporate open source teams.
  • Travel Connect: Mumbai & Delhi do command the majority of air traffic in India, but Delhi would be advantageous purely from being (relatively) more centrally located for travel across the country.
  • Cost Efficiency: Yes, its true that parts of Mumbai / Navi Mumbai have places that are relatively cost effective. However, on a whole, other cities tend to have much more options that are cost efficient. It's all relative. There are places in Delhi and Bangalore, for instance, which are really expensive too.Hmundol 09:47, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your prompt reply Hisham. Im still a bit iffy about this whole process of marking without taking actuals in mind. Dont you think it may have been better to give each community a set of questions, asking them to fill in the blank with actuals and then making a comparison. (eg. Media present answer would be a list of media houses having offices in the city, cost efficiency would mean having to give actual prices backed up by some real estate broker or firm etc.). AroundTheGlobe 04:49, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your suggestion, AroundTheGlobe. I think the endeavor has been to capture the important decision criteria, give them appropriate weightages and score each location as objectively as possible. These have been done using both data and judgement - as relevant for that criterion.Hmundol 10:45, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

New Delhi[edit]

Community is not very strong in Delhi as of now but ease of working with appropriate Government authorities. Delhi is strategically located and we can get lots of visibility and attention from government and media bodies. -- Tinu Cherian - 10:15, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delhi will not only be cost effective but also draws attention of media and Govt.Places near by delhi like Noida and gurgaon may also serve this purpose in more Cost effective sense.NCR is also a Central place and Good Wiki community presense here also give advantage for smooth running of foundation activities.Large presence of colleges and other educational institutions like JNU and DU also reflects importance of this place--Mayur (talkEmail) 11:15, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Community isn't yet very strong but it would be remiss to point out the possibilities of collaboration with Government. Gkjohn 14:16, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

An asset for Delhi or Gurgaon is that it is a strong hub for global Internet companies. Google has a strong presence there and we have already benefited from access to their communications and legal people (who have been supportive of Wikimedia). Also, I'd imagine that Delhi is the best location for travel, given it is the capital and geographically central. Challenge is that I'm told that the FOSS community is weak/struggling and we haven't seen our own community catch fire yet. Personally, I don't really value proximity to the GoI that highly, as I worry that our team would spend too much time in meetings with officials that don't really drive impact rather than out with the community. A reason why Gurgaon might be better than in the heart of Delhi. --Bnewstead 18:39, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I also shared the same veiw that a place in gurgaon or noida may be better than delhi.--Mayur (talkEmail) 02:02, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Weather Conditions also need to be counted in ranking for Travel Connectivity.Delhi have most unpredictable weather & flight/Train delays in India. As you pointed. i am not counting GOI proximity as an important thing the work of WMF. Unlike other metros, potential Community keeps on changing in Delhi. It will be a big challenge to retain the community from my experience in working with FOSS community in Delhi. --AniVar 09:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Pune[edit]

Wikicommunity is now very active. Large presence of colleges and other educational institutions (?) and Open source communities. Cost of setting up an office may be comparatively lower than other metro cities. -- Tinu Cherian - 10:29, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of wikicommunities and also not so cost effective and no support of media and govt.--Mayur (talkEmail) 11:17, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Would possibly be a great place for the technical mission to be set up. Gkjohn 14:16, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We have a small, but mighty community in Pune and there is lots of potential with the large number of students in town. Also, the FOSS community is strong in Pune. Agree that it could be a great place for an Engineering centre. It would be cost effective. --Bnewstead 18:39, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Question: Would we have issues with possible political sensitivities around our projects in Pune in a similar way to Mumbai, since it is in Maharashtra? --Bnewstead 18:42, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thiruvananthapuram[edit]

Active wiki community. Good support from Government and Academic institutions. Good support from media. Large presence of FOSS developers. Cost of setting up is very low. FOSS and Wikipedia is part of school Syllabus, so big student base. Minus point is it is located south of the country and not a metro city. --Santhosh.thottingal 03:04, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cochin[edit]

Same as Thiruvananthapuram. Active wiki community. Good support from Government and Academic institutions. Good support from media. Large presence of FOSS developers. Cost of setting up is very low. FOSS and Wikipedia is part of school Syllabus, so big student base. Minus point is it is located south of the country. --Santhosh.thottingal 03:04, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]