User:Solensean/log
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Log of Wikimedia meeting on irc. 27/08/05.
# filename: log.txt
aoû 27 22:01:36 Anthere okay, meeting starting
aoû 27 22:01:42 kim_bruning ORDER ORDER!
aoû 27 22:01:47 * kim_bruning kershushes
aoû 27 22:01:49 the_Epopt Uh-oh, everyone behave....
aoû 27 22:01:50 britty (je comprend
aoû 27 22:01:50 dannyisme who is chairing
aoû 27 22:01:51 Anthere who is taking care of the log ?
aoû 27 22:01:54 * TimShell hates computers
aoû 27 22:01:59 Phroziac Ah, hello.
aoû 27 22:02:02 * the_Epopt hate meetings.
aoû 27 22:02:05 Anthere danny I wish to start chairing
aoû 27 22:02:08 dannyisme ok
aoû 27 22:02:10 britty hi secretory ;)
aoû 27 22:02:12 Anthere and we'll change with topics
aoû 27 22:02:22 Anthere who is taking care of logs ?
aoû 27 22:02:26 the_Epopt Can we throw things at the Chair?
aoû 27 22:02:37 empoor-effe waste
aoû 27 22:02:37 Anthere this meeting is entirely public, anyone is welcome
aoû 27 22:02:43 VampWillow is their an official side-channel for chat, btw?
aoû 27 22:02:46 Anthere but please behave or get kicked out by angela
aoû 27 22:02:49 >Anthere< I'll log the meeting
aoû 27 22:02:55 Anthere thanks
aoû 27 22:03:02 dannyisme i want to suggest a time limit on topics to make sure we dont get bogged down
aoû 27 22:03:03 * the_Epopt puts down the bread roll he was going to throw.
aoû 27 22:03:06 * brion has changed the topic to: MEETING NOW | Open Wikimedia Foundation Meeting | 27 August, 20:00 UTC (see http://tinyurl.com/alsfg) | Agenda: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_agenda#August_week_4
aoû 27 22:03:08 JamesF VampWillow> Yes, #wikimedia.
aoû 27 22:03:14 Anthere second, angela, do we keep the wikinews topic ?
aoû 27 22:03:14 yannf i would like to announce that 16 subdomains were created for wikisource, thanks to brion for creating them
aoû 27 22:03:21 brion woo
aoû 27 22:03:34 mark- no, I made the subdomains!
aoû 27 22:03:37 mark- brion created the wikis ;-)
aoû 27 22:03:51 mark- *will shut up now*
aoû 27 22:03:59 * brion thanks mark- profusely
aoû 27 22:04:05 Anthere issues listed are here : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_agenda#August_week_4
aoû 27 22:04:16 yannf mark-, brion, ok thanks to mark- for creating the subdomains, and to brion for creating the wikis ;)
aoû 27 22:04:17 Anthere note that the log will be publicly posted on meta
aoû 27 22:04:30 Anthere so, say only what you wish to be public
aoû 27 22:04:31 TimShell Ant - we were requested to discuss the Dutch Royal Library issue first
aoû 27 22:04:43 Anthere who requested this ?
aoû 27 22:04:44 soufron yes
aoû 27 22:04:47 empoor-effe i did
aoû 27 22:04:47 GerardM ah
aoû 27 22:04:54 TimShell empoor
aoû 27 22:04:58 Anthere for which reason in one line ?
aoû 27 22:04:58 soufron this was not on the topic?
aoû 27 22:04:59 empoor-effe no, effe
aoû 27 22:05:13 Jtkiefer so what was the issue?
aoû 27 22:05:21 TimShell He bicycled across Holland and is tired
aoû 27 22:05:21 Angela I think the wikinews thing should be discussed. It isn't acceptable for some of them to continue with this confused GFDL thing
aoû 27 22:05:38 Angela and I thought Tim asked to Danny to chair, but I don't mind
aoû 27 22:05:53 Anthere Tim did not tell me
aoû 27 22:06:02 TimShell Anthere can chair if she wants
aoû 27 22:06:16 Anthere effe, why do you ask to change the day ?
aoû 27 22:06:36 empoor-effe i got no day at whitch it should be discussed
aoû 27 22:06:45 Anthere right
aoû 27 22:06:45 Anthere so
aoû 27 22:06:46 Anthere # KB - contacts and cooperation
aoû 27 22:06:46 Anthere # Status of Wikicouncil
aoû 27 22:06:46 Anthere # Wikinews: license and Chinese version
aoû 27 22:06:46 Anthere # seed wiki for potential new projects
aoû 27 22:06:48 empoor-effe in first i thought i couldn't be here
aoû 27 22:06:48 Anthere # Possible wiki closures: Simple, Klingon, Sep11, Others...?
aoû 27 22:06:52 Anthere KB, 5 mn
aoû 27 22:07:04 Anthere wikinews 10 or 15 ?
aoû 27 22:07:09 Anthere seed wiki 5 ?
aoû 27 22:07:12 Phroziac Angela: what is this confused gfdl thing?
aoû 27 22:07:18 Anthere closure 5-10
aoû 27 22:07:22 Anthere rest for wikicouncil
aoû 27 22:07:27 Anthere is that all right ?
aoû 27 22:07:38 Anthere I would suggest we end up with council
aoû 27 22:07:40 * the_Epopt moves to accept the agenda.
aoû 27 22:07:42 soufron yes
aoû 27 22:07:45 dannyisme yes
aoû 27 22:07:52 * Phroziac too
aoû 27 22:07:56 apper yes
aoû 27 22:07:58 soufron I am in romania in the middle of my hollydays
aoû 27 22:08:11 soufron so please...
aoû 27 22:08:12 Anthere angela, tim ?
aoû 27 22:08:22 TimShell Good plan Ant
aoû 27 22:08:24 soufron lets keep up with the agenda first
aoû 27 22:08:27 Angela sure
aoû 27 22:08:29 Anthere KB 5 mn
aoû 27 22:08:41 empoor-effe The KB offered to give us inn the idea of the project " Het geheugen van nederland" 85.000 pics. there is not yet sure with whitch licence or what, bur it might be very well possible that it's gonna be something like
aoû 27 22:08:46 empoor-effe no-commercial
aoû 27 22:08:51 empoor-effe or just-wiki
aoû 27 22:08:57 empoor-effe not sure anything
aoû 27 22:09:10 Angela it's a shame Jimbo isn't here since he wanted to explain why non-commercial wasn't acceptable
aoû 27 22:09:13 soufron well
aoû 27 22:09:14 Anthere so, a bit like NASA stuff
aoû 27 22:09:15 dannyisme would we accept it under those terms
aoû 27 22:09:16 empoor-effe and some requests about the linking to the database
aoû 27 22:09:16 JamesF Hmm. That's bad.
aoû 27 22:09:17 Anthere non commercial only
aoû 27 22:09:27 soufron the thing is that
aoû 27 22:09:31 soufron this content MAY be public domain
aoû 27 22:09:32 MessedRocker i want to donate to wikipedia, but i need the money i have for lunch
aoû 27 22:09:34 apper non-commercial is bad
aoû 27 22:09:44 Jtkiefer Angela, I think non commercial isn't preferential because that would disallow wikimedia from releasing the information on a CD or other media device
aoû 27 22:09:45 soufron then, they would like to license it somehow... but if its PD who cares about the license
aoû 27 22:09:56 JamesF Angela> It's quite simple why it's bad - it stops people (say, us) from selling printed versions of it to fund, say, handing out printed copies to villages in Africa.
aoû 27 22:10:04 Anthere agreed
aoû 27 22:10:05 soufron first of all we need to know the statute of this content
aoû 27 22:10:11 soufron and the kind of license they want to propose
aoû 27 22:10:14 kim_bruning that wins over Anthere :-)
aoû 27 22:10:16 soufron it s pointless to discuss now
aoû 27 22:10:19 the_Epopt non-commercial is bad, and drastically limits our future developments
aoû 27 22:10:19 soufron we know nothing
aoû 27 22:10:22 JamesF Yes.
aoû 27 22:10:30 Anthere who can discuss with them ?
aoû 27 22:10:31 soufron we all agree that NC is not a viable option
aoû 27 22:10:32 JamesF The ban on NC must stay.
aoû 27 22:10:33 kim_bruning just frame limitations for empoor-effe
aoû 27 22:10:40 kim_bruning Anthere, empoor-effe is the contact IIRC
aoû 27 22:10:41 empoor-effe i can discuss with KB
aoû 27 22:10:45 apper wikimedia and wikipedia stand for free content and so we should try to get the pictures as free as possible
aoû 27 22:10:46 dannyisme effe, can you clarify what the status will be?
aoû 27 22:10:48 Angela why is there a dispute on nl about this? Is anyone saying we should accept non-commercial?
aoû 27 22:10:59 kim_bruning Angela, Nl community iirc
aoû 27 22:10:59 soufron empoor-effe can we stay in touch on this one ?
aoû 27 22:11:02 empoor-effe no, not yet
aoû 27 22:11:04 Jtkiefer what would people think of the eventual phasing out of non commercial license choices in terms of users licensing their content
aoû 27 22:11:07 Jtkiefer just an idea
aoû 27 22:11:10 empoor-effe soufron, of cource
aoû 27 22:11:11 VampWillow is there any margin in a non-commercial licence that permits commercial exploitation direct by WM and its projects?
aoû 27 22:11:15 soufron empoor-effe great
aoû 27 22:11:22 Phroziac Jtkiefer: i would agree with that.
aoû 27 22:11:26 soufron empoor-effe then, when could you enter in touch with them ?
aoû 27 22:11:26 kim_bruning VampWillow, not good enough
aoû 27 22:11:37 empoor-effe but
aoû 27 22:11:38 JamesF VampWillow> Only if we were assigned the copyright. And (a) we don't want to do that, and (b) we /really/ don't want to do that.
aoû 27 22:11:41 empoor-effe i have to mention
aoû 27 22:11:41 VampWillow kim_b ... I agree, but I hate to lose content
aoû 27 22:11:43 Jtkiefer Vamp, I think you can give wikimedia certain extra rights but I don't think that follows entirely under the philosophy
aoû 27 22:11:57 empoor-effe that the KB is planning to give a lot more of sourcemateria;l
aoû 27 22:12:02 JamesF VampWillow> Because if, say, the WMF was sued into the ground, the plaintiff would now own the copyright.
aoû 27 22:12:04 empoor-effe if this works out well
aoû 27 22:12:07 kim_bruning VampWillow, free content only, we're going to lose most of the 20th century anyway. let's make sure we don't lose the 21st at least
aoû 27 22:12:10 empoor-effe a lot of books
aoû 27 22:12:21 empoor-effe and more photo=material
aoû 27 22:12:26 * Anthere wonders if we should not write a little something to explain why NC is bad...
aoû 27 22:12:32 JamesF empoor> But it's only going to work out well if it's non-commercial.
aoû 27 22:12:37 MessedRocker What -is- non-commercial?
aoû 27 22:12:40 Anthere to clarify both with editors and externals
aoû 27 22:12:40 soufron stop this
aoû 27 22:12:45 soufron we dont need to talk about NC or stuff
aoû 27 22:12:49 GerardM When we get a major historical resource then we should use it a repository. Not only for ourselves. IT is GFDL or CC-by and how much more would be acceptable.
aoû 27 22:12:52 kim_bruning Angela, nl.wikipedia sometimes has this idea that they should be heard on all wikimedia projects in .nl
aoû 27 22:12:53 Angela MessedRocker: it means the images can't be used for commercial purposes
aoû 27 22:12:54 soufron we just need to know how to get ni touch with kb
aoû 27 22:12:55 JamesF MessedRocker> A licence that prohibits use in commercial situations.
aoû 27 22:12:56 mindspillage HM. There must be somethign somewhere already written as to why NC is bad, if only on mailing list discussion and hidden in a few paragraphs on Meta...
aoû 27 22:12:57 soufron and on what basis
aoû 27 22:13:03 kim_bruning Angela, (rightly or wrongly)
aoû 27 22:13:09 Anthere summary, empoor-effe, you handle this and keep us informed
aoû 27 22:13:10 Anthere okay ?
aoû 27 22:13:16 MessedRocker Apparently Angela, but how does this affect Wikipedia?
aoû 27 22:13:18 Anthere if necessry contact juriwiki-l
aoû 27 22:13:19 GerardM Commercial mirrors are allowed under our license and not allowing them to see these pictures is bad
aoû 27 22:13:30 MessedRocker You're referring to copyrighted images being used under fair use?
aoû 27 22:13:31 britty kim_bruning many wikis do exactly so; without fair use - en wiki is out of standard at this point
aoû 27 22:13:31 kim_bruning mindspillage, don't forget the entire fsf.org :-)
aoû 27 22:13:36 empoor-effe i'll keep ionformed
aoû 27 22:13:41 Anthere good
aoû 27 22:13:44 soufron great
aoû 27 22:13:45 the_Epopt messedrocker, no, this has nothing to do with copyright
aoû 27 22:13:45 Anthere so next point are wikinews
aoû 27 22:13:49 Angela I don't see how he can handle it if the community want to have these images and aren't accepting that they can't be NC
aoû 27 22:13:52 Anthere big mess
aoû 27 22:13:53 empoor-effe is there a contact to inform?
aoû 27 22:13:54 kim_bruning britty, en.wikipedia has fair use, not all others do though
aoû 27 22:14:00 Anthere angela, can you summarize wikinews issues to us ?
aoû 27 22:14:03 Angela we shouldn't just ignore this issue and let the uploads go ahead
aoû 27 22:14:07 kim_bruning britty, or do you mean most wikis don't do fair use?
aoû 27 22:14:08 Jtkiefer Angela, so you'd be in favor of favoring out NC licenses
aoû 27 22:14:15 Ed_Poor I think we should avoid anything that opens up WMF to being 'sued into the ground'. We should also pre-emptively protect against involuntary assignment of copyrights by making SURE everything we need to have GFDL'ed *cannot* be taken over by tricky legal strategems.
aoû 27 22:14:16 Jtkiefer err phasing out
aoû 27 22:14:22 Angela I think we can't have them on Wikimedia projects
aoû 27 22:14:33 britty (nods to kim_bruning
aoû 27 22:14:39 Jtkiefer Ed, what you are talking about would eliminate all free use
aoû 27 22:14:39 Phroziac I agree with Ed_Poor
aoû 27 22:14:44 Jtkiefer which I agree with as well
aoû 27 22:14:45 soufron ???
aoû 27 22:14:46 dannyisme agree with ed poor
aoû 27 22:14:52 kim_bruning britty, wisely imho :-)
aoû 27 22:14:53 Phroziac Jtkiefer: hmm, i don't agree.
aoû 27 22:14:56 JamesF Jtkiefer> Phasing out? We can't phase them out, because we don't accept them right now.
aoû 27 22:14:56 MessedRocker I think for the CD or DVD edition of Wikipedia, we replace all copyrighted images with free-license types
aoû 27 22:15:07 JamesF Ed_Poor> Agreed.
aoû 27 22:15:09 Jtkiefer JamesF, enwiki does, none of the other ones do
aoû 27 22:15:15 Jtkiefer JamesF, should have clarified that
aoû 27 22:15:18 GerardM The thing is the KB sees this as an experiment with Wikipedia. They want an reliable partner. If this material is unusable for many of our own projects I think we fail miserably in the reliable department
aoû 27 22:15:26 Phroziac Jtkiefer: sure, it could get us sued, but fair use should be usable. it's *made* to be used.
aoû 27 22:15:28 Angela is there anyone from nl here who can explain this to those not here so that the uploads do not go ahead?
aoû 27 22:15:30 Ed_Poor JTK, what I am *worried* about would eliminate all free use. We must be pro-active. I think FSF can help with legal wording.
aoû 27 22:15:31 MessedRocker KB being...
aoû 27 22:15:35 kim_bruning But lets negotiate with KB
aoû 27 22:15:45 kim_bruning worst case Nothing Happens [[XYZZY]]
aoû 27 22:15:50 VampWillow en WP has "fair use" images but would be better if it didn't, especially as "fair use" is defined differently in different countries ...
aoû 27 22:15:56 kim_bruning MessedRocker, Koninklijke Bibliotheek (dutch royal library)
aoû 27 22:15:58 Jtkiefer PHroziac, it's not fair use that concerns me it's the fact that people are claiming everything under the sun fair use
aoû 27 22:16:00 soufron Ed_Poor the fact that anyone can edit an article is enough of a legal threat
aoû 27 22:16:02 mindspillage Jtkiefer, enwiki doesn't accept NC images. We just don't speedy on sight but rather list them as copyright problems if they were uploaded before a certain time.
aoû 27 22:16:10 soufron Ed_Poor and only authors and uploaders are liable
aoû 27 22:16:12 dungodung there is no fair use in Serbia
aoû 27 22:16:12 Phroziac What about fair use only on obvious things like logos?
aoû 27 22:16:13 soufron so plise
aoû 27 22:16:17 GerardM When we have organisations like the Koninklijke Bibliotheek (akin to the Library of Congress) you do not want to apear amateurish
aoû 27 22:16:19 JamesF Vamp> I agree, Fair Use imagery is often worse than with-permission.
aoû 27 22:16:27 MessedRocker yeah
aoû 27 22:16:33 Angela we don't have time to discuss fair use today, but can we have some agreement that these NC images are not going to be uploaded?
aoû 27 22:16:33 MessedRocker like making a first impression to the queen of england
aoû 27 22:16:38 MessedRocker if you screw it up, you're screwed
aoû 27 22:16:40 MessedRocker no pun intended
aoû 27 22:16:41 britty en wikiquote avoid free use also, though it can enjoy fair use
aoû 27 22:16:42 Phroziac Angela: i agree
aoû 27 22:16:43 VampWillow far worse, James, as 'fair use' in USA isn't 'fair use' in UK or Germany!
aoû 27 22:16:47 apper Angela: I agree
aoû 27 22:16:52 kim_bruning Angela, we don't know if they'll be NC, they won't be uploaded without further discussion
aoû 27 22:17:02 the_Epopt Yes, NC images are Not Allowed.
aoû 27 22:17:04 Angela right, but if they are, they can't be uploaded?
aoû 27 22:17:10 kim_bruning Angela, errr, yeah
aoû 27 22:17:14 TimShell I think this is settled
aoû 27 22:17:14 kim_bruning Angela, Mu
aoû 27 22:17:18 David59 I have an idea (probably, you have got same idea), i think we do one cd for one portal (one big portal) exemple:one cd mathematics (or sciences) one other transportation (with planes, cars...)
aoû 27 22:17:21 * MessedRocker crowns angela
aoû 27 22:17:23 britty Angela agreed
aoû 27 22:17:27 Angela ok
aoû 27 22:17:30 David59 you have got this idea?
aoû 27 22:17:33 Jtkiefer I move to continue on to wiki closures since this discussion is going nowhere
aoû 27 22:17:36 TimShell Someone will go and get clarifications from the Dutch Royal Library about this
aoû 27 22:17:47 mark- until then there will be no uploads
aoû 27 22:17:48 kim_bruning TimShell, and we'll see where it goes from there!
aoû 27 22:17:55 empoor-effe still KB?
aoû 27 22:18:01 mark- next issue!
aoû 27 22:18:02 empoor-effe or wikinews?
aoû 27 22:18:02 kim_bruning empoor-effe, just closing now
aoû 27 22:18:07 VampWillow Dutch Royal Library need to confirm in writing what they licence us to do with the image
aoû 27 22:18:10 kim_bruning next issue
aoû 27 22:18:19 Ed_Poor I'm deeply concerned about this, because the Encyclopedia Project plans to use (via GFDL) tens of thousands of articles intact; another large group professionally modified (and then, of course, re-released to the world IAW GFDL). They'd hate to spend $$$ and have it on shaky legal ground.
aoû 27 22:18:20 Anthere WE ARE ALREADY 5 MN LATE FOR SOMETHING NOT ON THE SCHEDULE
aoû 27 22:18:21 empoor-effe and the contact
aoû 27 22:18:25 empoor-effe to inform
aoû 27 22:18:49 David59 and i think. It's important to create one other portal (portal:basic encyclopaedia)
aoû 27 22:18:53 * the_Epopt calls for the orders of the day.
aoû 27 22:18:59 kim_bruning ORDER!
aoû 27 22:19:02 britty (counts the number of WN projects - 14
aoû 27 22:19:15 Anthere so, Angela, can you remind us of the two wikinews issues ?
aoû 27 22:19:23 Angela some Wikinewses are GFDL
aoû 27 22:19:35 Austin That's bad.
aoû 27 22:19:43 dungodung e.g.?
aoû 27 22:19:45 britty and other(s) CC-BY
aoû 27 22:19:45 MessedRocker TimStarling?
aoû 27 22:19:46 soufron ?
aoû 27 22:19:50 MessedRocker Where have I heard of TimStarling before...
aoû 27 22:19:56 MessedRocker Probably on Wikipedia
aoû 27 22:20:00 Angela http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikinews-l/2005-August/000286.html - Dariusz writes "The Spanish, Serbian and Romanian editions are all licensed under the GNU FDL, and the Japanese edition is licensed under CC-By."
aoû 27 22:20:01 * Meanos is now known as jd_
aoû 27 22:20:17 soufron well
aoû 27 22:20:18 SonicR others are public domain
aoû 27 22:20:23 TimStarling sorry I was late, it's 6:18am here
aoû 27 22:20:24 kim_bruning some wikinewses are public domain too
aoû 27 22:20:25 Jtkiefer Angela, what is the preferred license
aoû 27 22:20:33 kim_bruning hello TimStarling , good morning
aoû 27 22:20:39 Phroziac Angela: wow, i thought they were all pd
aoû 27 22:20:42 Angela they were supposed to all start as PD
aoû 27 22:20:43 Austin For practical reasons, I'd say PD.
aoû 27 22:20:55 soufron ..
aoû 27 22:20:56 dungodung Angela: who said sr wikinews was GFDL?
aoû 27 22:20:59 soufron wikinews cannot be PD
aoû 27 22:21:01 britty Austin legally impossible
aoû 27 22:21:04 Anthere french is PD
aoû 27 22:21:05 Angela sr.wikinews.org says it
aoû 27 22:21:09 dungodung where?
aoû 27 22:21:13 soufron its impossible in many legislations to renounce your copyright
aoû 27 22:21:15 britty that is why ja has chosen cc-by
aoû 27 22:21:18 TimStarling cc-by should be good enough for any reuser
aoû 27 22:21:21 soufron wikinews using PD are simply illegal
aoû 27 22:21:28 soufron and they made a big mistake
aoû 27 22:21:33 Phroziac soufron: why?
aoû 27 22:21:41 soufron you cant chose your content to be PD in may countries
aoû 27 22:21:42 Jtkiefer soufron, the license it as you much but release all rights
aoû 27 22:21:47 dungodung Упозорење: слањем вести на Викивести се одричете свих ауторских права. Молимо Вас и да не шаљете копије вести из других медија, јер ће то бити кршење ауторских права.
aoû 27 22:21:48 JamesF CC-BY is essentially EU-PD, of course.
aoû 27 22:21:50 Angela and Erik tried to make a page to discuss it, but Dan100 got upset that it was put on meta to be discussed internationally and not only on English Wikinews
aoû 27 22:21:51 soufron and there are no equivalents like there are with fair use
aoû 27 22:22:08 dungodung translated in short: you are denouncing every right
aoû 27 22:22:12 soufron for example, the french wikinews is simply... proprietary !!!!
aoû 27 22:22:13 Austin It needn't be recognized as PD everywhere.
aoû 27 22:22:17 Austin Elsewhere it's simply "free reuse."
aoû 27 22:22:20 soufron because it cannot be PD under french law
aoû 27 22:22:21 Angela http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/License
aoû 27 22:22:29 soufron its better to use a very simple license
aoû 27 22:22:31 kim_bruning soufron, Ouw, broken
aoû 27 22:22:36 Med soufron: it will ... in many years ;)
aoû 27 22:22:38 Jtkiefer soufron, you can still give all rights to reuse
aoû 27 22:22:41 kim_bruning soufron, Okay.
aoû 27 22:22:41 soufron Med exactly
aoû 27 22:22:43 SonicR what happens to the PD contend when another licence will be chosen?
aoû 27 22:22:48 kim_bruning soufron, what do you propose?
aoû 27 22:22:54 soufron Jtkiefer yes, I would call it a very simple and dangerous license
aoû 27 22:23:00 Angela SonicR: content already PD stays PD
aoû 27 22:23:02 cspurrier Dan100 was not upset that it was put on meta, just that it was not also announced on en wikinews
aoû 27 22:23:07 britty austin agreed
aoû 27 22:23:08 Phroziac soufron: kinda like CC-BY?
aoû 27 22:23:10 soufron Jtkiefer but its better than plain said-to-be-PD
aoû 27 22:23:17 kim_bruning CC-PD?
aoû 27 22:23:23 dungodung Све написано на Викивестима је у јавном власништву - everything written here is in public domain
aoû 27 22:23:23 * kim_bruning wonders
aoû 27 22:23:24 VampWillow aiui the problem is that in some places PD doesn't exist so can't carry to a re-user for that content to stay as-near-PD-as-possible
aoû 27 22:23:30 Ed_Poor Can we use American law for "WikiNews in French"?
aoû 27 22:23:30 Austin The practical upshot is the same.
aoû 27 22:23:32 soufron Phroziac yes
aoû 27 22:23:33 Jtkiefer soufron, I agree only if PD is legally not allowed
aoû 27 22:23:33 dungodung Angela: serbian wikinews is PD
aoû 27 22:23:36 JamesF Vamp> Yes.
aoû 27 22:23:37 Angela it was announced on the mailing list, read by hundreds of people who edit en wikinews. It's hardly my fault not a single one of them could be bothered to copy it there
aoû 27 22:23:37 kim_bruning places where PD don't exist seem very sick to me
aoû 27 22:23:40 britty btw i heard some complaints and afraid from ja blogsphere
aoû 27 22:23:41 soufron Ed_Poor thats not possible at all
aoû 27 22:23:44 kim_bruning doesn't exist too
aoû 27 22:23:50 kim_bruning brion, go ahead?
aoû 27 22:23:55 kim_bruning britty, go ahead even
aoû 27 22:23:58 kim_bruning (sorry brion)
aoû 27 22:23:58 britty on the fact JAWN has chosen
aoû 27 22:24:00 JamesF Ed_Poor> We can, but French contributors, say, can't. Which makes it, well, useless.
aoû 27 22:24:01 britty CC_By
aoû 27 22:24:04 Phroziac But if it's put in PD here, why does it matter if it's not else where? We won't sue anyone for anything stupid, will we? What about "licensing" it for those areas, so, "use it, we won't sue"?
aoû 27 22:24:04 Austin Keep in mind that the French are rather backward re Internet publishing.
aoû 27 22:24:06 soufron kim_bruning thats to protect authors
aoû 27 22:24:07 apper dungodung: on every page: "Content is available under GNU Free Documentation License."
aoû 27 22:24:10 britty specially from media people
aoû 27 22:24:11 kim_bruning britty, why is this a problem?
aoû 27 22:24:12 Austin (Everyone knows the recent Yahoo suit, yes?)
aoû 27 22:24:23 britty it would be a possible copyvio
aoû 27 22:24:24 Phroziac No, I don't Austin
aoû 27 22:24:27 kim_bruning soufron, it only does so to an extent though
aoû 27 22:24:31 dungodung apper: then why "accuse" 3 wn's
aoû 27 22:24:34 Angela would it be best to make the poll at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/License_straw_poll more formal and advertised across all projects?
aoû 27 22:24:43 Chiacomo Probably.
aoû 27 22:24:44 soufron kim_bruning no trolls, we dont care about the reasons
aoû 27 22:24:45 britty in case WN articles are summaries of existing other news articles
aoû 27 22:24:51 soufron kim_bruning later
aoû 27 22:24:53 MessedRocker yeah
aoû 27 22:24:55 Phroziac britty: oh.
aoû 27 22:24:56 MessedRocker the neutral summaries
aoû 27 22:24:57 MessedRocker which is love
aoû 27 22:24:58 kim_bruning britty, Oh dear. Are there any .jp copyright lawyers?
aoû 27 22:25:03 Jtkiefer Austin, slightly off topic but we already could be in trouble in France since we don't block them from viewing the articles on Nazism ans cuh
aoû 27 22:25:09 kim_bruning soufron, fair deal, don't intend to troll
aoû 27 22:25:14 brion what?
aoû 27 22:25:19 britty kim_bruning for ja community no
aoû 27 22:25:20 brion oh
aoû 27 22:25:33 Jtkiefer can PD be used in Japan
aoû 27 22:25:38 Jtkiefer or does japanese law not allow it
aoû 27 22:25:39 britty pd can used
aoû 27 22:25:40 soufron Jtkiefer no
aoû 27 22:25:48 Angela acn everyone add their arguments to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/License rather than here, and agree on whether there should be a vote and when?
aoû 27 22:25:50 britty but japanese people can't release their work in PD
aoû 27 22:25:54 Austin Jtk: indeed.
aoû 27 22:25:57 Phroziac Sure Angela
aoû 27 22:26:03 Ed_Poor What's wrong with GFDL for WikiNews? Let people assign the copyright of their donated texts to WMF and then we license anyone to copy or modify it? Why does it HAVE to be public domain?
aoû 27 22:26:05 britty and PD is not the solution here
aoû 27 22:26:06 soufron britty normally you cannot decide to put your work under PD in japan
aoû 27 22:26:07 cspurrier the issues License straw poll have changed so much that a new poll is the only fair thing
aoû 27 22:26:07 dannyisme Angela, can we have a deadline for that?
aoû 27 22:26:15 britty Soufron agreed
aoû 27 22:26:25 soufron wikinews can use PD content
aoû 27 22:26:31 Angela the deadline was August 17. Maybe make it September 17?
aoû 27 22:26:36 the_Epopt Ed, I thought you agreed that WMF shouldn't own any copyrights.
aoû 27 22:26:39 soufron but wikinews authors cannot decide that their own works will be PD... they must chose one or several licenses
aoû 27 22:26:40 SonicR a new poll would be allright
aoû 27 22:26:40 cspurrier Ed_Poor: because GFDL kills Audio Wikinews and the Print Edition
aoû 27 22:26:44 soufron and I srongly suggest
aoû 27 22:26:49 soufron they chose A LOT of licenses
aoû 27 22:26:50 Angela can everyone from Wikinews here go and advertise this on their projects?
aoû 27 22:26:54 soufron massive dual licensing
aoû 27 22:26:55 britty WN summary type article can become a sort of copyright laundering
aoû 27 22:27:03 Angela this - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/License
aoû 27 22:27:04 soufron so that users will be able to pick up the license they want for WN
aoû 27 22:27:16 britty or just considered copyvio from the original news agent
aoû 27 22:27:41 dannyisme Summary: A page will be opened on meta. Each wikinews will advertise the discussion there. A decision will be made on september 17
aoû 27 22:27:41 kim_bruning cspurrier, we still need to talk with Eben Moglen, a lot
aoû 27 22:27:52 kim_bruning cspurrier, maybe we should just pay him
aoû 27 22:27:52 Angela or a vote will start Sept 17?
aoû 27 22:27:56 dannyisme ok
aoû 27 22:27:59 kim_bruning cspurrier, so he can make time free for ys
aoû 27 22:28:02 kim_bruning for us
aoû 27 22:28:08 dannyisme a vote, lasting one week will start on sept 17
aoû 27 22:28:18 Anthere cspurrier, could we have different licenses depending on materials ?
aoû 27 22:28:21 kim_bruning dannyisme, for licence for wikinews?
aoû 27 22:28:23 britty but most of editors aren't aware of this possibility (they are young and lack experience to deal with issues - they haven't even written a paper
aoû 27 22:28:23 VampWillow danny - definition of electorate?
aoû 27 22:28:25 dannyisme yes
aoû 27 22:28:28 soufron kim_bruning I am supposed to talk to Eben
aoû 27 22:28:29 kim_bruning dannyisme, you can't vote on that
aoû 27 22:28:31 soufron kim_bruning soon
aoû 27 22:28:36 kim_bruning soufron, YAY!
aoû 27 22:28:42 britty a clear guideline abount copyright is necessary imo
aoû 27 22:28:45 TimStarling you should have used +zm moderation for this, and enforced some traditional rules of order, an open meeting doesn't have to be a shambles
aoû 27 22:28:46 kim_bruning dannyisme, voting to break the law might be a bad idea
aoû 27 22:28:51 Anthere one week is too short
aoû 27 22:28:57 Austin No kidding.
aoû 27 22:29:04 britty at least 2 weeks
aoû 27 22:29:04 yannf dannyisme, one week is not enough for the vote
aoû 27 22:29:08 dannyisme kim_bruning, if this is a legal issue, then there is no point in discussing it
aoû 27 22:29:09 kim_bruning dannyisme, I suggest consensus finding
aoû 27 22:29:18 kim_bruning dannyisme, it's a legal issue.
aoû 27 22:29:21 kim_bruning dannyisme, next point?
aoû 27 22:29:30 soufron yes, no vote
aoû 27 22:29:34 tsca ppl at PL.wikinews are going to discuss disallowing fair use on the project. It seems many editors are in favour of banning fu. Perhaps also that could be discussed globally ay the same time?
aoû 27 22:29:35 soufron plus we are not in a hurry
aoû 27 22:29:40 soufron they have been using PD for a while...
aoû 27 22:29:40 dannyisme then the legal department will have to report on it
aoû 27 22:29:45 Jtkiefer Tim, I disagree, since this is a meeting between all users not just a Q and A with users and the board
aoû 27 22:29:50 soufron well 1 or 2 more months wont be a big issue now
aoû 27 22:29:51 dannyisme rather than people discussing "what if"
aoû 27 22:29:56 kim_bruning tsca, set up a page on meta for that
aoû 27 22:30:07 Austin Jtk, simply voice one person at a time.
aoû 27 22:30:08 JamesF Jtkiefer> Agreed.
aoû 27 22:30:13 soufron I already wrote several mails on thsi topic
aoû 27 22:30:16 soufron I suggest
aoû 27 22:30:20 soufron to remember me to put them on meta
aoû 27 22:30:24 soufron so that people can comment them
aoû 27 22:30:34 soufron I will advertise these pages to legal people
aoû 27 22:30:36 Jtkiefer anyway, is it time for the next topic?
aoû 27 22:30:36 Austin And for free-for-all discussion, we hav emeta.
aoû 27 22:30:42 soufron on juriwiki-l and for other people I know
aoû 27 22:30:47 soufron would it be ok ?
aoû 27 22:30:48 Anthere chinese wikinews....
aoû 27 22:31:00 Anthere summary, soufron completes the page on meta
aoû 27 22:31:03 dannyisme what is the issue with chinese wikinews
aoû 27 22:31:04 Jtkiefer soufron, yeah, juriwiki should help since they know the respective laws
aoû 27 22:31:07 TimStarling Jtkiefer: I wasn't suggesting otherwise
aoû 27 22:31:09 Anthere and someone tries to start a vote mid sept ?
aoû 27 22:31:12 Anthere againnnnnn
aoû 27 22:31:12 Angela I'm not sure there's much point bringing this up now since Jimmy isn't here
aoû 27 22:31:21 Anthere agreed
aoû 27 22:31:25 Jtkiefer k
aoû 27 22:31:33 soufron ko
aoû 27 22:31:36 dungodung someone call Jimbo ;)
aoû 27 22:31:37 soufron I ll complete the page on meta
aoû 27 22:31:47 soufron and we ll talk about it when people will have contributed
aoû 27 22:31:50 Angela Anthere: postpone that for now?
aoû 27 22:32:02 Anthere agreed
aoû 27 22:32:13 britty Angela already advertised on en and ja
aoû 27 22:32:15 TimStarling postpone chinese wikinews?
aoû 27 22:32:16 Anthere in any cases, we would need some chinese wiki editors
aoû 27 22:32:00 Anthere in any cases, we would need some chinese wiki editors
aoû 27 22:32:00 Anthere to comment
aoû 27 22:32:00 Anthere or a wikicouncil to decide :-)
aoû 27 22:32:00 MessedRocker boy am i going to be excited to talk to jimmy-jimmy when he gets here
aoû 27 22:32:00 dannyisme next topic
aoû 27 22:32:00 MessedRocker that's his birth name? jimmy?
aoû 27 22:33:00 Anthere seed wiki for potential new projects
aoû 27 22:33:00 dori I don't think the individual wikinews should decide the license, it should be by the foundation for all of them, otherwise it's notfair to future wikinewsies
aoû 27 22:33:00 Anthere nota, can you explain this ?
aoû 27 22:33:00 JamesF MessedRocker> Yes. He blames his Southern rootes. :-)
aoû 27 22:33:00 TimStarling from what I understand from Isaac Mao's Wikimania talk, the chinese wiki editors have already decided
aoû 27 22:33:00 Anthere not really
aoû 27 22:33:00 notafish_ Anthere: the seed wiki?
aoû 27 22:33:00 MessedRocker Yeah, because I've never heard of anyone being assigned the name Jimmy
aoû 27 22:33:00 MessedRocker James, yes
aoû 27 22:33:00 Anthere I talked with 5 of them... and it was not obvious
aoû 27 22:33:00 Phroziac I like the idea of a seed wiki..
aoû 27 22:33:00 Angela TimShell: what have they decided?
aoû 27 22:33:00 Angela the vote was completely split the last I heard
aoû 27 22:33:00 Anthere yup
aoû 27 22:33:00 Jtkiefer what is this seed wiki proposal?
aoû 27 22:33:00 TimStarling don't call me TimShell
aoû 27 22:34:00 Anthere :-)
aoû 27 22:34:00 Angela sorry. don't have the name Tim
aoû 27 22:34:00 TimStarling but we can move on to the next topic if you like
aoû 27 22:34:00 Anthere who can explain the seed wiki then ?
aoû 27 22:34:00 dannyisme next topic
aoû 27 22:34:00 notafish_ ok, seed wiki idea is as follows: Have a wiki where one or more projects co-exist to see if there is potential for them
aoû 27 22:34:00 dannyisme this would include new languages
aoû 27 22:34:00 britty shizhao has been busy to prepare zh wikinews though
aoû 27 22:34:00 Angela new projects as well as new languages?
aoû 27 22:34:00 dannyisme NO MORE ZH WIKINEWS
aoû 27 22:35:00 dori dannyisme: sounds bad to me, new languages, if legit, should have new wikis
aoû 27 22:35:00 Jtkiefer notafish, would it be trimmed as the new wikis are accepted or rejected?
aoû 27 22:35:00 yannf dori, the problem is "if legit"
aoû 27 22:35:00 Anthere why are the current ones developing on meta, allowed to develop on meta and not anywhere else ?
aoû 27 22:35:00 dannyisme dori, this gives them a chance to test themselves, without taking up space on meta
aoû 27 22:35:00 dori yannf: not a conlang IMO
aoû 27 22:35:00 notafish_ Jtkiefer: yes, although I suppose we should have a set of policies about who can get on the seed wiki
aoû 27 22:35:00 Angela currently, they don't get a wiki until there are 5 people wanting it. They're more likely to convince people to want it if they've made some test pages in that language
aoû 27 22:35:00 notafish_ who stays, who's out etc.
aoû 27 22:35:00 dannyisme which is already getting crowded and messy
aoû 27 22:36:00 Jtkiefer notafish, yes, otherwise it would grow huge with spam pages
aoû 27 22:36:12 dori can't they start them on wikicities and move them over if approved?
aoû 27 22:36:22 dannyisme i would actually like to hear node's view on a seed wiki, as node is our best known advocate of new languages
aoû 27 22:36:31 the_Epopt dori, it's the definition of "legit" that's causing the pain.
aoû 27 22:36:45 britty dannyisme that is why i objected to test wikis on meta on february
aoû 27 22:36:48 Angela we have a WikiLab at http://scratchpad.wikicities.com but some people want this to be within Wikimedia
aoû 27 22:36:53 mindspillage I like the seed wiki idea; I concur with Angela's comment.
aoû 27 22:36:56 dori the_Epopt: well, the board could establish a baseline
aoû 27 22:37:48 Anthere would anyone think wikiversity could go there ?
aoû 27 22:37:51 Anthere or should it n ot ?
aoû 27 22:37:54 Angela if there is a seed wiki, the board isn't going to have time to approve or not approve every proposal that people want to start there, so there needs to be some policies and a community who can enforce those
aoû 27 22:37:55 dannyisme dori, can you describe what you mean about a baseline
aoû 27 22:37:57 Jtkiefer I also agree that it would be a good idea but only if there are guidelines
aoû 27 22:38:03 Jtkiefer Angela, agreed
aoû 27 22:38:05 yannf dori, imho, it is not for the board to decide that
aoû 27 22:38:06 TimStarling what domain do you want it at?
aoû 27 22:38:15 dannyisme seed.wikimedia.org?
aoû 27 22:38:18 notafish_ seed.wikimedia.org ?
aoû 27 22:38:23 dannyisme lol
aoû 27 22:38:32 dori dannyisme: something along the lines of: 1) have evolved naturally, been spoken x number of people as primary language, etc.
aoû 27 22:38:32 Jtkiefer that would probably work
aoû 27 22:38:40 dannyisme ok
aoû 27 22:38:43 Austin But how will people remember it?
aoû 27 22:38:44 * cspurrier is now known as cspurrier_aw
aoû 27 22:38:46 Angela please don't create it before there are any policies on what can go there
aoû 27 22:38:53 dannyisme if a project doesnt take off, will it be erased?
aoû 27 22:38:58 dori yannf: why not? of course the board would take community opinion into account
aoû 27 22:39:10 TimStarling well, start by creating a seedwiki meta page if there isn't one already
aoû 27 22:39:10 notafish_ ok, I propose that a team of people work on the policies
aoû 27 22:39:15 notafish_ who's interested?
aoû 27 22:39:17 dannyisme me
aoû 27 22:39:23 yannf dori, then i call that a community decision, not a board decision
aoû 27 22:39:29 TimStarling propose some policies, wait a week, if there's no comments, declare them law and ask me or brion to create the wiki
aoû 27 22:39:31 Anthere yannf is correct
aoû 27 22:39:36 dori yannf: not really, ultimately the board will decide
aoû 27 22:39:40 notafish_ TimStarling: good thing
aoû 27 22:39:51 dannyisme can we have a seed wiki committee?
aoû 27 22:39:55 * VampWillow raises hand ...
aoû 27 22:39:56 mindspillage dannyisme: I'd say not erased but moved at least, or given a dump they can put somewhere else.
aoû 27 22:39:57 dannyisme who will join?
aoû 27 22:40:05 JamesF VampWillow> Hmm?
aoû 27 22:40:06 dannyisme good idea, mindspillage
aoû 27 22:40:14 * Angela thinks it will end up being a fork of Wikicities
aoû 27 22:40:18 dannyisme that way they can be revived if there is interest at a later date
aoû 27 22:40:30 JamesF Angela> There is that danger. Pre-approval would aide.
aoû 27 22:40:30 * VampWillow raises hand at danny's request ...
aoû 27 22:40:33 yannf notafish_, i am
aoû 27 22:40:38 notafish_ ok, we have dannyisme, VampWillow, yannf
aoû 27 22:40:40 notafish_ who else
aoû 27 22:40:41 dori Angela: I see no reason not to have seed wiki on wikicities
aoû 27 22:40:42 notafish_ ,
aoû 27 22:40:43 mindspillage Angela, why not suggest projects unltimately not accepted by WM move to Wikicites itself?
aoû 27 22:41:03 TimStarling I'd be happy if it was used for new languages of approved projects only
aoû 27 22:41:03 dannyisme tht could be part of the policy, mindspillage
aoû 27 22:41:07 mindspillage Eventually there comes a point where it's the seed sprouts, so to speak.
aoû 27 22:41:10 VampWillow there is an issue that something that appears on 'offocial' wiki domain will be perceived as 'official' even if test by only a couple of people without control
aoû 27 22:41:22 TimStarling or semi-approved projects like wikiversity
aoû 27 22:41:27 elian VampWillow: can be solved with sitenotice
aoû 27 22:41:37 VampWillow elian> agreed ...
aoû 27 22:41:43 notafish_ VampWillow: that's part of the policy making :)
aoû 27 22:41:47 TimStarling certainly not for those hundreds of crazy proposals on meta
aoû 27 22:41:49 Angela please don't call it seedwiki. That already exists - http://www.seedwiki.com/
aoû 27 22:41:53 TimStarling most of them belong on wikicities
aoû 27 22:41:58 * mindspillage doesn't want the responsibility of being on a committee but will probably comment on the ideas
aoû 27 22:42:02 dannyisme wikubator
aoû 27 22:42:06 JamesF WikiSeeds is nicer.
aoû 27 22:42:07 elian but I strongly favour a preapproval
aoû 27 22:42:21 JamesF More like scattering in soil and watching them to see if they grow, as it were.
aoû 27 22:42:27 notafish_ I don't think we should be discussing the policies now
aoû 27 22:42:27 JamesF elian> Me too.
aoû 27 22:42:31 JamesF Agreed.
aoû 27 22:42:35 dannyisme agreed
aoû 27 22:42:35 notafish_ seed wiki on meta
aoû 27 22:42:37 mindspillage Concur with elian and JamesF.
aoû 27 22:42:39 JamesF Close the topic?
aoû 27 22:42:42 notafish_ the people in the team start something
aoû 27 22:42:43 VampWillow are we almost heading for a wikicities >> wikiseed >> 'real' wiki process?
aoû 27 22:42:44 the_Epopt And not at all like burying them out of sight....
aoû 27 22:42:44 notafish_ advertise
aoû 27 22:42:45 notafish_ etc.
aoû 27 22:42:47 dannyisme yes
aoû 27 22:42:48 notafish_ and then we'll see
aoû 27 22:42:55 TimStarling I don't think the board has to worry about the costs of approval
aoû 27 22:43:00 TimStarling it doesn't take long to say no
aoû 27 22:43:13 dannyisme next topic
aoû 27 22:43:16 dannyisme wikicouncil
aoû 27 22:43:25 Angela I thought possible wiki closures was next
aoû 27 22:43:32 Angela anthere wanted to leave wikicouncil till last
aoû 27 22:43:33 dannyisme oh, sorry
aoû 27 22:43:36 JamesF Yes.
aoû 27 22:43:38 JamesF Closures.
aoû 27 22:43:41 dannyisme closures
aoû 27 22:43:43 the_Epopt Closures! Closures!
aoû 27 22:43:47 Austin Close them all!
aoû 27 22:43:47 dungodung close 'em all
aoû 27 22:43:48 JamesF Close everything! ;-)
aoû 27 22:43:51 dungodung lol
aoû 27 22:43:52 * JamesF laughs.
aoû 27 22:43:57 Angela people are constantly suggesting Simple, Klingon, Sep11, etc are closed, but nothing is ever done about them
aoû 27 22:44:03 * dori flips open sign to closed
aoû 27 22:44:05 britty simple?
aoû 27 22:44:07 VampWillow Q1: what happens to content. locked or deleted?, Q2: justification of why do so ...?
aoû 27 22:44:12 mark- klingon IS closed/locked by brion afaik
aoû 27 22:44:14 Austin I approve wholeheartedly of closing all three.
aoû 27 22:44:15 mindspillage ....Sep11 isn't closed yet?
aoû 27 22:44:15 yannf sanskrit wikipedia should be closed
aoû 27 22:44:18 Austin Klingon is locked.
aoû 27 22:44:21 JamesF mindspillage> Not yet. :-(
aoû 27 22:44:22 Austin Not technically closed.
aoû 27 22:44:25 JamesF yannf> Is it inactive?
aoû 27 22:44:30 dungodung I'd create a trashwiki (a dump for all closed wikis)
aoû 27 22:44:42 the_Epopt wikiwaste?
aoû 27 22:44:44 Angela they could be archived as HTML
aoû 27 22:44:44 JamesF dungodung> Sounds like a value-judgement.
aoû 27 22:44:45 dungodung yeah
aoû 27 22:44:46 JamesF Bad idea.
aoû 27 22:44:49 yannf yes, and no content, except historical works, to be moved to wikisource
aoû 27 22:44:49 Angela rather than being wikis
aoû 27 22:44:50 JamesF Angela> DB dump?
aoû 27 22:44:52 elian make database dumps available for download
aoû 27 22:45:05 VampWillow need some way to recreate if required, do DB dump for preference
aoû 27 22:45:05 Angela but how should it be decided which wikis are closed?
aoû 27 22:45:12 JamesF Yes.
aoû 27 22:45:18 britty vote?
aoû 27 22:45:21 djevrek hii all
aoû 27 22:45:23 VampWillow although I hate the idea of losing data and availability thereof even if not presently active
aoû 27 22:45:27 JamesF Consensus on meta.
aoû 27 22:45:32 Jtkiefer I'd support the closure of several of those wikis
aoû 27 22:45:33 mindspillage Angela: Long, drawn-out, and contentious arguments, same as everythign else.
aoû 27 22:45:38 JamesF Or the wikiseeds committee could have the roles.
aoû 27 22:45:45 JamesF WikiGardeners and all that.
aoû 27 22:45:49 britty VampWillow you can get dump even it is closed
aoû 27 22:45:51 britty or not ?
aoû 27 22:45:53 JamesF Reap as well as sow.
aoû 27 22:45:59 mindspillage JamesF: careful, you're about to get yourself a title.
aoû 27 22:46:03 VampWillow James: in one sense they are two sides of the same coin ... testing the validity of a concept
aoû 27 22:46:09 the_Epopt Lock 'em, and wait a week. If no one notices, delete 'em.
aoû 27 22:46:24 JamesF mindspillage> Bah, I've already got enough angst. :-)
aoû 27 22:46:25 Angela would there be any objection to voting on this, say in 2 months time after discussions on each proposed closure?
aoû 27 22:46:30 JamesF VampWillow> Exactly.
aoû 27 22:46:33 yannf the_Epopt, good point ;)
aoû 27 22:46:34 dungodung I wouldn't just delete someone's hard work
aoû 27 22:46:40 TimStarling sep11 obvioiusly doesn't need to be editable
aoû 27 22:46:45 dungodung but rather collect it to a garbage area
aoû 27 22:46:46 britty 2 months sounds not bad
aoû 27 22:46:50 TimStarling like brion says, it's an archive, not a project
aoû 27 22:46:53 JamesF 2 months is a bit long.
aoû 27 22:46:56 VampWillow Angela: what would process be for someone to suggest a closuyre though, ie prevent frivolous suggestions
aoû 27 22:46:57 Jtkiefer Angela, I suggest a meta page for a vote on this
aoû 27 22:46:58 JamesF Make it one?
aoû 27 22:47:04 TimStarling somewhere to dump the sep11 articles that were created on wp
aoû 27 22:47:28 mindspillage By "closing" we mean removing the content from wikimedia domains entirely?
aoû 27 22:47:31 Angela perhaps the vote would only be on ones the board approved for closure first?
aoû 27 22:47:34 Anthere should we make a policy page just as was done for the creation then ?
aoû 27 22:47:38 Jtkiefer Tim, since that's no longer really a problem why not lock sept11
aoû 27 22:47:40 the_Epopt No one is allowed to vote /against/ closure unless they have edited the wiki they are voting to save.
aoû 27 22:47:45 JamesF Angela> Hmm. Bit too strongly top-down, perhaps.
aoû 27 22:47:51 Anthere let us see a real example
aoû 27 22:47:57 EdPoor Is there an established policy for closing one of our wikis? Do we give people a chance to copy a dump, or something?
aoû 27 22:47:57 JamesF Angela> And becomes Yet More Work For The Board (tm).
aoû 27 22:48:00 Anthere since some of you want the closure of wikispecies
aoû 27 22:48:06 TimStarling Jtkiefer: that's what I'm asking
aoû 27 22:48:06 Anthere how would you perceive asking for it ?
aoû 27 22:48:08 JamesF Ed_Poor> No, no established policy.
aoû 27 22:48:16 Angela for example, we don't want to waste time voting on whether to close English Wikipedia just because a troll lists it there
aoû 27 22:48:17 britty the_Epopt neat
aoû 27 22:48:23 kim_bruning So now we have a Wiki For Deletion process? ;-)
aoû 27 22:48:24 VampWillow I can envisage someone deciding that because "their" project has been deleted they try to push for enWP to go ...
aoû 27 22:48:28 JamesF kim_bruning> Fun.
aoû 27 22:48:36 kim_bruning JamesF, let's not do that ;-)
aoû 27 22:48:38 the_Epopt And then Wikis for Undeletion....
aoû 27 22:48:39 JamesF We shouldn't have a vote. We should try to establish consensus.
aoû 27 22:48:45 mark- pure wiki deletion system...
aoû 27 22:48:52 Anthere JamesF, how do you suggest we do so ?
aoû 27 22:48:58 dungodung pure bureaucracy
aoû 27 22:49:00 Jtkiefer and I meant I'd support immediate locking of Klingon and Sept11 pending a vote on meta
aoû 27 22:49:06 britty Angela "no natural language is the object of this poll"?
aoû 27 22:49:19 the_Epopt I like that, britty.
aoû 27 22:49:20 VampWillow britty ... "simple" though?
aoû 27 22:49:28 britty it is not a natrual langauge
aoû 27 22:49:30 kim_bruning britty, I think that shows the limitations already :-)
aoû 27 22:49:30 JamesF Anthere> Prolonged discussion on meta (a month). Big notice in both English and the target language in the MediaWiki:Sitenotice.
aoû 27 22:49:33 EdPoor My interest is in preserving knowledge. Why delete an entire project like wikispecies, without giving people a few month notice so they can make a copy and/or merge the data into Wikipedia?
aoû 27 22:49:35 mindspillage "simple Egnlish" isn't really a natural language.
aoû 27 22:49:36 Phroziac I support locking klingon. And sept11 maybe. But not simple. I think that would be very useful. it's NOT a conlang!
aoû 27 22:49:55 Phroziac mindspillage: it's not a natlang or a conlang in my opinion ;p
aoû 27 22:49:56 dungodung Simple has many interwikis
aoû 27 22:49:56 Anthere JamesF; what would you suggest for wikispecies ?
aoû 27 22:49:57 TimStarling regarding closure method: zh-tw.wikipedia.org was moved to closed-zh-tw.wikipedia.org so that data could be moved off it, then I think it was eventually switched off entirely
aoû 27 22:49:59 kim_bruning Ed_Poor, good point. Actually keep backup copies around
aoû 27 22:50:02 JamesF Ed_Poor> We don't want Wikispecies's data wiped out. We want the communities merged.
aoû 27 22:50:05 kim_bruning Ed_Poor, people took the time to collect that data
aoû 27 22:50:10 Phroziac Was wikispecies closed? when?
aoû 27 22:50:15 kim_bruning JamesF, wikispecies merges with whom?
aoû 27 22:50:19 Angela shall we aim to have a vote on this at the end of October? we have 2 months to work out the details of how wikis can be nominated etc
aoû 27 22:50:26 Phroziac i would've helped merge that if i knew about it.
aoû 27 22:50:28 elian EdPoor: all wikipedia biologists I know are against it
aoû 27 22:50:31 Phroziac Angela: i agree.
aoû 27 22:50:34 JamesF Anthere> Right now, nothing. When Wikidata comes along, examine it to see if Wikispecies can be made a data-project.
aoû 27 22:50:39 Jtkiefer would it be feasible to have a dump wiki for all the dumped content from closed wikis?
aoû 27 22:50:55 Angela I don't think that needs to be a wiki
aoû 27 22:50:56 dungodung yeah
aoû 27 22:51:02 mindspillage Jtkiefer: not even a dump wiki, just keep it on the dowlnloads page in a section of their own.
aoû 27 22:51:11 Jtkiefer mindspillage, or that
aoû 27 22:51:11 JamesF Anthere> I forsee us having backend and frontend projects quite soon - Commons, Wikisource, and Wikispecies are backends; Wikipedia, Wikitionary, etc. are frontends.
aoû 27 22:51:14 TimStarling you don't need two months for sep11
aoû 27 22:51:18 Phroziac Jtkiefer: isn't that the point of closing them, without deleting for a while?
aoû 27 22:51:26 JamesF Tim> We don't need two minutes.
aoû 27 22:51:29 TimStarling right
aoû 27 22:51:34 Angela TimShell: I was thinking it should avoid the wikinews license vote though
aoû 27 22:51:39 Jtkiefer Phroziac, well we should keep copies of the last dumps just in case
aoû 27 22:51:43 Jtkiefer and have them available somewhere
aoû 27 22:51:45 JamesF Yes.
aoû 27 22:51:48 Angela voter fatigue, so keep them a month apart
aoû 27 22:52:11 TimStarling if Angela or Anthere will say the word, I'll do it now
aoû 27 22:52:16 Phroziac Jtkiefer: absolutely. but that doesn't need a wiki, just keep them on the download page. besides, maybe someone would want to make a wikicity with it, or use the information to make a conworld... ;)
aoû 27 22:52:19 Anthere I won't :-)
aoû 27 22:52:33 Angela me neither
aoû 27 22:52:34 mark- jimbo said the word at wikimania, brion did it
aoû 27 22:52:34 Jtkiefer Phroziac, I'd support that
aoû 27 22:53:00 brion gimme a list of things to lock, i'll lock em
aoû 27 22:53:02 TimStarling can you tell me one reason why you might want sep11 to remain editable?
aoû 27 22:53:03 brion i'm a locking machine
aoû 27 22:53:11 Phroziac when was wikispecies closed?
aoû 27 22:53:15 Phroziac TimStarling: not personally.
aoû 27 22:53:15 Angela it wasn't
aoû 27 22:53:17 * mav-away is now known as mav
aoû 27 22:53:20 JamesF Heya mav.
aoû 27 22:53:24 dungodung Phroziac: it's noy
aoû 27 22:53:24 dannyisme before closing wikispecies may i comment
aoû 27 22:53:25 JamesF Phroziac> It's not.
aoû 27 22:53:25 dungodung *not
aoû 27 22:53:26 mav hi
aoû 27 22:53:37 dannyisme we actually received money for wikispecies
aoû 27 22:53:40 Angela I think there needs to be a period for people to raise objections before just shutting it
aoû 27 22:53:41 EdPoor Tim, there's no reason to keep a *memorial* site open for editing.
aoû 27 22:53:42 mav close wikispecies - yes PLEASE
aoû 27 22:53:48 Austin Oh crap, money.
aoû 27 22:53:50 * the_Epopt is now known as the_Epopt-confused-by-mav
aoû 27 22:53:51 Anthere dannyisme good point
aoû 27 22:54:01 TimStarling there's no sep11 community, there never has been
aoû 27 22:54:05 * dungodung is against closing wikispecies
aoû 27 22:54:12 TimStarling I was one of the people who helped move pages from wikipedia to there
aoû 27 22:54:12 mav close sep11 too
aoû 27 22:54:17 Austin Let's give said money to whoever locks it.
aoû 27 22:54:20 britty close sep11 please
aoû 27 22:54:27 Anthere but does that mean that any group giving us money, sometimes indirectly, should see his pet project be preseerved ?
aoû 27 22:54:28 Angela just locked it doesn't solve the problem
aoû 27 22:54:30 Austin Thus it can be said that the funds went to working on it.
aoû 27 22:54:31 mav it was just a dumping ground for stuff we didn't want in wikipedia
aoû 27 22:54:38 Angela it's still seen as a Wikimedia project and sits there looking bad
aoû 27 22:54:46 mav danny - the experiment failed
aoû 27 22:54:48 * Jtkiefer moves to immediately lock Sept11 wiki
aoû 27 22:54:50 Angela if we're going to close it, I think we should dissociate it from Wikimedia
aoû 27 22:54:50 brion for fuck's sake
aoû 27 22:54:51 JamesF Angela> Indeed.
aoû 27 22:54:52 mav end of story
aoû 27 22:54:56 dannyisme i think that if we made an obligation to develop a project and received money for it, we cannot later vote to close the project
aoû 27 22:54:58 brion its sole purpose is to not be on wikipedia
aoû 27 22:55:04 TimStarling (which gives you some idea of how long it took, that was in 2003)
aoû 27 22:55:05 brion what do we have to do to please people?
aoû 27 22:55:05 * the_Epopt seconds jtkiefer's motion.
aoû 27 22:55:08 JamesF Jtkiefer> Seconded.
aoû 27 22:55:13 VampWillow All projects have two sets of users though ... editors and the general public. How many hits does Sept11 and speciies, etc get actually looking up data rather than editing it ...
aoû 27 22:55:30 britty dannyisme you thinks too narrowly imo
aoû 27 22:55:30 Anthere there are editors on wikispecies
aoû 27 22:55:34 TimStarling but the move to sep11 was completely finished in 2003, it's been idle since then
aoû 27 22:55:39 Jtkiefer brion, I think there's agreement to at least lock Sept11 wiki
aoû 27 22:55:47 dannyisme britty, are we prepared to return that money?
aoû 27 22:55:48 brion lock oh yes
aoû 27 22:55:52 * the_Epopt suggests to the Chair that we consider one wiki at a time for closure.
aoû 27 22:55:53 brion it should have been locked a couple years ago
aoû 27 22:55:57 Anthere brion, hold on....
aoû 27 22:55:58 mark- is there anyone who objects to locking sep11?
aoû 27 22:56:03 JamesF Anthere> Indeed. Let's not rush into things for Wikispecies.
aoû 27 22:56:09 mav dannyisme ; how much money was it?
aoû 27 22:56:13 JamesF mark-> The ayes have it.
aoû 27 22:56:16 Jtkiefer dannyisme, and who from?
aoû 27 22:56:23 dannyisme part of a 40k grant from lounsbery
aoû 27 22:56:29 dori dannyisme: for what?
aoû 27 22:56:36 dannyisme developing wikispecies
aoû 27 22:56:39 Angela I don't want it locked to editing but looking like it is still a wiki. Can you just link to an archive of it instead of keeping the actual pages up?
aoû 27 22:56:55 mav dannyisme ; that was for, and I quote "Operating expenses for the first quarter of 2005"
aoû 27 22:56:56 VampWillow as a semi-aside, what is the *benefit* of closing a project though ...?
aoû 27 22:56:59 EdPoor WikiSpecies might be an example (even a weak one) of a project which originally had a lot of collaborative work, but then "finished". Once a collection of knowledge reaches stability, maybe it doesn't need to remain editable any more.
aoû 27 22:57:02 britty i know it but it is not the whole of their donation objects
aoû 27 22:57:06 mav I saw nothing that was about wikispecies
aoû 27 22:57:11 Jtkiefer Angela, I assume that would mean all pages just being up in html format
aoû 27 22:57:18 dori dannyisme: did it say the info couldn't be in wikipedia?
aoû 27 22:57:25 dannyisme no
aoû 27 22:57:27 Austin Using Wikispecies to sell the project isn't the same thing.
aoû 27 22:57:31 dannyisme it was to get the project off the ground
aoû 27 22:57:35 Anthere or could the info be in wikidata ?
aoû 27 22:57:37 Angela just something that makes it clear it isn't an open project
aoû 27 22:57:44 dannyisme the question i woudl ask, is the info off the ground
aoû 27 22:57:49 JamesF Anthere> Yes, I think it can.
aoû 27 22:57:51 mark- simply changing the layout could work
aoû 27 22:57:53 mark- a bit of CSS work
aoû 27 22:57:55 Austin How about "THIS PROJECT IS CLOSED" in big, friendly letters?
aoû 27 22:57:59 Phroziac Angela: what about a sitenotice that says "This project is closed. Feel free to merge the content elsewhere"?
aoû 27 22:58:00 mark- if we can't provide static html dumps...
aoû 27 22:58:00 mav lock it and then make sure all the data in it is in wikipedia
aoû 27 22:58:01 TimStarling Angela: yes it's possible
aoû 27 22:58:01 Angela Wikispecies could be in Wikidata, but that possibility is still quite a few months off
aoû 27 22:58:05 Phroziac Austin: bah you beat me!
aoû 27 22:58:10 JamesF Anthere> Wikispecies was one of the original pushes towards Wikidata.
aoû 27 22:58:10 TimStarling or you can just use the HTMLDump skin
aoû 27 22:58:17 TimStarling it's got no edit buttons
aoû 27 22:58:18 dannyisme when will wikidata be ready?
aoû 27 22:58:21 Jtkiefer Phroziac, then people would try to merge it back to enwiki
aoû 27 22:58:22 dannyisme any estimate?
aoû 27 22:58:23 brion months/years/decades
aoû 27 22:58:29 Anthere I think just closing that way is NOT acceptable, due to it having editors right now
aoû 27 22:58:33 Jtkiefer Phroziac, which is why sept11 was created in the first palce
aoû 27 22:58:34 Phroziac Jtkiefer: what's wrong with it? i've never been there.
aoû 27 22:58:51 Angela not till next year
aoû 27 22:58:51 Phroziac Jtkiefer: OH. i thought we were talking about species...sorry.
aoû 27 22:58:52 * mav is happy Wikispecies is going away - he almost left wikimedia when it was setup
aoû 27 22:58:54 kim_bruning Ed_Poor, wikispecies can't be finished
aoû 27 22:59:02 Jtkiefer Phroziac, neither have I, but the reasoning behind it, and correct me if I'm wrong, was to get rid of the excess amount of sept11 articles on enwiki
aoû 27 22:59:04 kim_bruning mav, why's that?
aoû 27 22:59:11 mav IT IS A FORK
aoû 27 22:59:13 * the_Epopt really wishes we could talk about one wiki at a time.
aoû 27 22:59:14 Phroziac Jtkiefer: yes, thats what i'm told.
aoû 27 22:59:16 dori I personally don't have anything against wikispecies as long as it doesnt duplicate wikipedia
aoû 27 22:59:18 kim_bruning mav, eh?
aoû 27 22:59:23 mark- people are talking about both sep11 and wikispecies now, which is confusing
aoû 27 22:59:24 Joolzer the_Epopt: seconded :p
aoû 27 22:59:25 kim_bruning dori, AH!
aoû 27 22:59:30 Phroziac So is there anything wrong with merging wikispecies data into wikipedias?
aoû 27 22:59:34 mav the same thing it was doing was being done on wikipedia
aoû 27 22:59:35 Joolzer Deal with sep11 first?
aoû 27 22:59:37 Austin kim, you can see mav repeat this phrase and others many, many times in the mailing list archives. :)
aoû 27 22:59:48 Anthere I think we could set a page for policy for closing of projects or languagees
aoû 27 22:59:48 EdPoor Kim, a project can be suspended or put on hold or simply become "idle". I second Mav's motion to close WikiSpecies to further editing.
aoû 27 22:59:53 Anthere and we could propose sept 11
aoû 27 22:59:54 * Jtkiefer again moves to lock sept11 wiki and place a big notice on the mainpage stating this wiki is closed
aoû 27 22:59:57 Anthere not wikispecies right now
aoû 27 23:00:01 britty sep11 might be the clearest case
aoû 27 23:00:02 Angela is anyone going to make that page?
aoû 27 23:00:07 mav sep11 too
aoû 27 23:00:16 Anthere who feels like making it ?
aoû 27 23:00:27 mark- someone very brave
aoû 27 23:00:36 Anthere bah
aoû 27 23:00:40 mav I'll close it :)
aoû 27 23:00:51 Anthere right
aoû 27 23:00:53 Anthere I'll do it
aoû 27 23:00:57 EdPoor To Meeting Chairman: point of order, which should we talk about first, sep11 or wikispecies?
aoû 27 23:00:57 JamesF Brilliant.
aoû 27 23:00:57 Anthere (not close)
aoû 27 23:00:58 mav we lost the registration of wikispecies.org last month anyway
aoû 27 23:00:59 Anthere the page
aoû 27 23:01:10 JamesF mav> Whoops. To a squatter?
aoû 27 23:01:14 Anthere we settled sept11
aoû 27 23:01:21 Angela did we? I thought we still had wikispecies.org
aoû 27 23:01:21 Anthere I suggest wikispecies waits till we have wikidata
aoû 27 23:01:33 Angela it's still redirecting to http://species.wikipedia.org
aoû 27 23:01:38 MessedRocker i think Sept11 Wiki should be merged with a new Memorial Wiki
aoû 27 23:01:39 * Angela agrees with Anthere
aoû 27 23:01:39 JamesF Anthere> I completely agree.
aoû 27 23:01:44 dori mav: eh, who owns it now?
aoû 27 23:01:47 mav registration lapsed ; the password to the GoDaddy acount was changed so I could not fix that
aoû 27 23:01:50 Jtkiefer Angela, yes, I belived we settled to lock sept11 and put a closed notice up
aoû 27 23:01:52 kim_bruning Anthere, I never thought I'd hear you say that. I agree
aoû 27 23:01:57 Anthere ?
aoû 27 23:02:00 kim_bruning Anthere, :-D
aoû 27 23:02:04 Angela mav: are you sure Jason didn't re-register this?
aoû 27 23:02:04 Anthere right, are we ready for next point ?
aoû 27 23:02:08 TimStarling wikispecies was always meant to wait until there was special software
aoû 27 23:02:16 Joolzer A set of criteria about dealing with dead or moribund wikis seems like a good plan to me.
aoû 27 23:02:18 Anthere (I'll wait for the domain issue to be settled)
aoû 27 23:02:29 kim_bruning next point!
aoû 27 23:02:33 terinjokes 9/11 will be remembered forever
aoû 27 23:02:35 Jtkiefer who's the chairperson here anyway?
aoû 27 23:02:39 britty [[m:Wiki closure policy]]?
aoû 27 23:02:39 Anthere is that okay Angela ?
aoû 27 23:02:44 notafish_ Anthere is
aoû 27 23:02:45 Anthere if so, wikicouncil
aoû 27 23:02:46 TimShell Anthere is chairing
aoû 27 23:02:47 Jtkiefer terinjokes, but not edited forever
aoû 27 23:02:49 mav damn - looks like Jason did re-register it
aoû 27 23:02:52 kim_bruning TimShell, she is?
aoû 27 23:02:58 Anthere did anyone read the proposal written by Angela ?
aoû 27 23:03:03 kim_bruning Okay, else I'd have volunteered
aoû 27 23:03:05 TimStarling I didn't know there was one
aoû 27 23:03:09 kim_bruning Anthere, which proposal (link?)
aoû 27 23:03:12 TimStarling was it announced on the ML?
aoû 27 23:03:17 dori mav: is there a list of all wikimedia domains somewhere?
aoû 27 23:03:18 JamesF mav> Bugger.
aoû 27 23:03:21 Anthere http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikicouncil
aoû 27 23:03:24 mav major bugger
aoû 27 23:03:29 * EdPoor endorses Anthere as chair
aoû 27 23:03:29 Anthere Jimbo did I think
aoû 27 23:03:31 Anthere did he ?
aoû 27 23:03:32 Angela it's not my proposal. this was mostly from an email by Jimbo, especially the tiers bit, which I'm not sure are workable yet.
aoû 27 23:03:32 kim_bruning wikicouncil
aoû 27 23:03:33 kim_bruning roger
aoû 27 23:03:34 Jtkiefer britty, yeah, that's a good idea
aoû 27 23:03:34 kim_bruning I read that
aoû 27 23:03:39 mav dori - yep on meta
aoû 27 23:03:40 Jtkiefer we need a concrete closing policy
aoû 27 23:03:59 kim_bruning waerth wanted to grill folks mercilessly, but seems to have connection problems
aoû 27 23:04:12 Angela http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikicouncil - this still needs a lot of discussion on what the purpose of this council would be. What I wanted to know for now is whether there is any support for the proposal at all. Is it worth developing further?
aoû 27 23:04:28 kim_bruning Angela, what's the point of it?
aoû 27 23:04:32 * kim_bruning listens carefully
aoû 27 23:04:35 JamesF Angela> I slightly tweaked the wording just now, BTW.
aoû 27 23:04:39 kim_bruning I can see that there's a lot of structure
aoû 27 23:04:41 akl_ Angela: it is
aoû 27 23:04:44 mav we help! That's the point :)
aoû 27 23:04:47 britty Angela: it depends - on its purpose imo
aoû 27 23:04:53 mav er, we need help
aoû 27 23:04:54 dori seems like more bureaucracy to me, will this new council really help?
aoû 27 23:05:00 kim_bruning but I'm not entirely sure what the objective is that people try to reach with it
aoû 27 23:05:02 Angela it's a formalisation of what used to be [[m:Wikimedia Embassy]]
aoû 27 23:05:15 kim_bruning Angela, Hmm
aoû 27 23:05:26 Austin I helped write that, and I'm still not sure it's an effective idea. :)
aoû 27 23:05:37 Angela and it's more democratic since people would be voted into their positions
aoû 27 23:05:38 Anthere yeah
aoû 27 23:05:39 mav there are simply too many random people going in and out to run this org
aoû 27 23:05:39 elian bye
aoû 27 23:05:43 akl_ dori: if we grow some more years like we do now we need some kind of bureaucracy
aoû 27 23:05:46 britty embassy is inactive though - i suspect who wants help from embassy actually
aoû 27 23:05:54 Anthere the initial proposal was made by akl, nota, elian and austin if I remember well
aoû 27 23:06:12 notafish_ Anthere: not exactly
aoû 27 23:06:15 EdPoor I prefer stable, committed people like Anthere, Mav and Angela to run things.
aoû 27 23:06:17 dori akl: some kind being the keyword, I suggest it be the smallest kind possible
aoû 27 23:06:18 mav one rep per wiki may not be workable though
aoû 27 23:06:19 Angela the idea is that they would decide stuff people keep expecting the board to decide, and *not* to decide stuff that should be decided by the community, but to represent their communities
aoû 27 23:06:30 Anthere not exactly ?
aoû 27 23:06:36 Anthere I may be mistaken
aoû 27 23:06:39 kim_bruning actually, we can skip the whole numbers of representatives
aoû 27 23:06:40 akl_ Anthere: not at all
aoû 27 23:06:44 kim_bruning since that's only needed for voting
aoû 27 23:06:45 britty Angela: otoh any one can list themselves on embassy - more volunteered than council by vote
aoû 27 23:06:46 Anthere no ?
aoû 27 23:06:49 Anthere please correct
aoû 27 23:06:55 * VampWillow becomes a politician again and says "Proportional Representation"!
aoû 27 23:06:57 Anthere EdPoor, we are too few people
aoû 27 23:06:59 kim_bruning we can request each community to send representatives
aoû 27 23:07:04 Anthere and we should not take all decisions
aoû 27 23:07:08 kim_bruning VampWillow, we have consensual representation!
aoû 27 23:07:14 TimStarling will this wikicouncil vote?
aoû 27 23:07:17 kim_bruning and it doesn't matter how many they send really
aoû 27 23:07:22 JamesF Vamp> No, we actively want disproportionate representation.
aoû 27 23:07:24 TimStarling I don't see this specified anywhere
aoû 27 23:07:25 kim_bruning TimStarling, if they do, I'm opposed!
aoû 27 23:07:31 mav each language should have their own rep
aoû 27 23:07:36 akl_ Anthere: no, we didn't. but we talked a little bit with jimbo about it
aoû 27 23:07:47 Angela I think it would have too many people to manage without votes
aoû 27 23:07:48 * EdPoor reflects that making unilateral decisions is *often* bad for the project - but not *always* ;-)
aoû 27 23:07:48 VampWillow one per project seems a little ... wrong ... somehow ...
aoû 27 23:07:54 mav they would represent all projects in their language
aoû 27 23:08:11 soufron I dont understand a word here
aoû 27 23:08:29 soufron there are too many people talking of too many things
aoû 27 23:08:42 britty mav: elected from a certain but represent all projects?
aoû 27 23:08:42 akl_ soufron: including you ;)
aoû 27 23:08:46 britty or just in their language?
aoû 27 23:08:51 * You are now known as Solensena
aoû 27 23:08:53 JamesF mav> And pan-lingual projects?
aoû 27 23:08:54 * You are now known as Solensean
aoû 27 23:09:01 Anthere okay, let us clarify it
aoû 27 23:09:02 VampWillow en-GB -v- en-US anyone?
aoû 27 23:09:02 TimStarling I don't mean will they sometimes set up a vote on a wiki page somewhere, I mean will they use a formal decision making process
aoû 27 23:09:08 Anthere what will be the goals of this council ?
aoû 27 23:09:09 Angela there would be different reps for different languages
aoû 27 23:09:16 TimStarling will they produce decisions, and will the board take their decisions into account?
aoû 27 23:09:21 mav the German rep would represent the German versions of Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikibooks, etc
aoû 27 23:09:28 Angela TimStarling: hopefully, yes
aoû 27 23:09:41 britty mav thanks for clarification - but i don't like this idea
aoû 27 23:10:01 mav there will be too many reps otherwise
aoû 27 23:10:10 TimStarling well, you might want to have some voting rules specified in their constitution
aoû 27 23:10:12 dannyisme how would reps be chosen?
aoû 27 23:10:14 JamesF VampWillow> Well, indeed.
aoû 27 23:10:20 mav and we will have the same problems as we do now
aoû 27 23:10:27 Angela please remember it's just a proposal. There aren't any answers to these questions yet since nothing has been decided
aoû 27 23:10:27 Anthere why ?
aoû 27 23:10:32 dannyisme and wouldnt wikipedias, which are larger, always outway the interests of smaller projects
aoû 27 23:10:39 dannyisme like wikibooks and wikisource
aoû 27 23:10:51 VampWillow James ... and I've already seen a de-DE -v- de-CH argument too ...
aoû 27 23:10:53 dori TimStarling: constitution? that's really taking it too far, I really don't like all this bureaucracy
aoû 27 23:10:57 mav danny ; each project would have their own rep as well
aoû 27 23:11:05 TimStarling the meta page is the constitution
aoû 27 23:11:09 dungodung dori: word
aoû 27 23:11:17 TimStarling it doesn't have to use legalistic language
aoû 27 23:11:18 mav just one rep for all wikipedias, for example, in addition to language reps
aoû 27 23:11:28 JamesF Vamp> I went to Wikimania. Believe me, they exist.
aoû 27 23:11:37 TimStarling that's all I meant
aoû 27 23:11:54 Angela any projects large enough should have a rep. So, English Wikitionary might have one because it has x number of users, but the other wiktionaries might share a rep
aoû 27 23:12:05 dori I think this wikicouncil could be replaced by a global notice board, it would need software changes, but I think it would be way more efficient
aoû 27 23:12:06 mav otherwise we will have 6 x 3000 reps
aoû 27 23:12:12 VampWillow I mean, I think the proposal has merit, I just can't see it working in practice in terms of reducing hassle for the editorship at large ...
aoû 27 23:12:13 mav 3000 is enough :)
aoû 27 23:12:34 mav er, 3006 :)
aoû 27 23:12:40 dannyisme how about having regional reps instead of project reps
aoû 27 23:12:46 britty Angela or how about 2nd election by reps or just they rotate their roles among reps
aoû 27 23:12:51 TimStarling in any case I'll probably vote against it
aoû 27 23:12:51 notafish_ Angela: if anything of the sort happens, I would vote against it, I would say everyone should have at least one rep, probably unmanageable though
aoû 27 23:12:57 dannyisme it seems silly for basque and spanish to have the same weight
aoû 27 23:12:58 mav danny ; that is also a good idea
aoû 27 23:12:59 TimStarling on principle
aoû 27 23:13:04 dannyisme or luxembourgish and german
aoû 27 23:13:08 Angela I think we need to decide first whether to do this at all, rather than going into the details of how it could be if we do have it
aoû 27 23:13:09 kim_bruning dannyisme, regional reps is BAD
aoû 27 23:13:24 kim_bruning Angela, well, what's the problem with embassy?
aoû 27 23:13:29 * kim_bruning listens carefully
aoû 27 23:13:35 Angela TimStarling: why would you vote against it?
aoû 27 23:13:50 Anthere kim, the problem is simply that it does not work
aoû 27 23:13:51 Angela kim_bruning: it doesn't seem used for anything. Most people aren't aware of it
aoû 27 23:13:54 britty embassy is seldom updated
aoû 27 23:14:03 TimStarling because only 3 out of 33 representatives come from the english wikipedia
aoû 27 23:14:08 Angela people don't know how to get on it or how to get bad people off it
aoû 27 23:14:14 Anthere mostly, I think, it is seen as totally useless, in part due to no power
aoû 27 23:14:18 britty for translation i found frequently embassy members left the project
aoû 27 23:14:18 Phroziac I oppose any legalese language.
aoû 27 23:14:23 dannyisme then the question isnt whether we should have a wikicoucil, but whether embassies should be reinvigorated
aoû 27 23:14:28 britty Anthere power?
aoû 27 23:14:30 dannyisme i wrote a proposal about that a month ago
aoû 27 23:14:40 Anthere power, yes, I think Britty
aoû 27 23:14:42 dannyisme about a year ago
aoû 27 23:14:52 Angela TimStarling: can you suggest alternative ways of deciding how many reps per project then at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikicouncil#How_representation_is_calculated ?
aoû 27 23:15:00 britty hmmm interesting but it hasn't been in its scope or not
aoû 27 23:15:06 dannyisme each project should be told to appoint an ambassador
aoû 27 23:15:08 Anthere it was not
aoû 27 23:15:13 mav how about this ; each chapter has one rep ; that's it
aoû 27 23:15:23 britty mav most of langs has no chapter
aoû 27 23:15:25 Austin Chapter?
aoû 27 23:15:28 Anthere ?
aoû 27 23:15:35 dannyisme not enough chapters yet
aoû 27 23:15:36 mav britty ; then that is motivation for them to get one :)
aoû 27 23:15:53 Anthere mav, this is not really a good idea
aoû 27 23:16:05 Anthere a chapter is a lot of work, it requires a big community
aoû 27 23:16:07 mav each chapter gets one rep and each project gets one too
aoû 27 23:16:14 Anthere and it is NOT the community
aoû 27 23:16:16 Austin Inactive chapters can be worse than no chapters.
aoû 27 23:16:19 mav 6 + the number of chapters
aoû 27 23:16:26 britty austin agreed
aoû 27 23:16:29 JamesF mav> Biased against things without chapters, chapters without pan-project users.
aoû 27 23:16:39 TimShell I suggest working out these details on the wiki
aoû 27 23:16:45 JamesF Anthere> Indeed.
aoû 27 23:16:47 JamesF Yes.
aoû 27 23:17:02 Angela in general, is there any support for a Wikicoucil (not counting specific details that could be worked out later)?
aoû 27 23:17:06 Anthere my problem is more this one
aoû 27 23:17:14 mav I don't want to have any wikicouncil that will have more than 50 reps
aoû 27 23:17:18 britty the current problem is what is the demerit of embassy and the merit of wikicouncil are unclear imo
aoû 27 23:17:21 mav at this time
aoû 27 23:17:22 Anthere if it is only representation, I fear people will no more be interested than in embassy
aoû 27 23:17:35 JamesF mav> Current proposal won't.
aoû 27 23:17:35 mav embassy can be separate
aoû 27 23:17:36 VampWillow Angela> Yes, but I think the makeup of the membership of said council is problematic ..
aoû 27 23:17:42 britty or what kind of issues are expected to be resolved in the council
aoû 27 23:17:43 Anthere my main problem is that editors are not informed about what the board does, and the board have problem to get informed itself
aoû 27 23:17:50 Anthere third problem is work load
aoû 27 23:18:04 * dori brings up global notice board idea
aoû 27 23:18:07 Anthere might the wikicouncil help ?
aoû 27 23:18:17 Anthere such as in making some decisions ?
aoû 27 23:18:18 TimShell the work load problem is not solved by advisory committees but by delegation of authority
aoû 27 23:18:28 Anthere such as banning editors from more than one project ?
aoû 27 23:18:29 JamesF Indeed.
aoû 27 23:18:36 britty it sounds wikicouncil is a proxy or herald of board
aoû 27 23:18:39 Austin Agreed with TimS.
aoû 27 23:18:44 Anthere TimShell, how do we know who to delegate authority ?
aoû 27 23:18:53 Anthere how do we know who is trusted on chinese wikipedia ?
aoû 27 23:18:54 dannyisme also agree with TimShell
aoû 27 23:18:55 mav anthere ; full faith and credit
aoû 27 23:18:57 Anthere editors there know
aoû 27 23:19:00 dori wouldn't stewards be in the same position as council members?
aoû 27 23:19:04 mav that is all that is needed to have pan-bans
aoû 27 23:19:06 Anthere mav, how many chinese editors do you know ?
aoû 27 23:19:15 TimShell I would say we rely heavily on local community consensus
aoû 27 23:19:25 TimStarling I know 3
aoû 27 23:19:27 Anthere so, that means a representative :-)
aoû 27 23:19:27 mav a person is banned in one wiki, the others wikis have the choice to extend the ban to their wiki
aoû 27 23:19:28 soufron yes
aoû 27 23:19:34 TimStarling oh, 4, if you count node ;)
aoû 27 23:19:42 Anthere :-)
aoû 27 23:20:00 dannyisme based on what would they extend the ban
aoû 27 23:20:08 mav no need for more bureaucracy
aoû 27 23:20:15 mav bureaucracy kills communities
aoû 27 23:20:36 TimShell There's a difference between a representative who is meant to convey community opinion and an official who is granted decision-making authority
aoû 27 23:20:36 VampWillow mav> beueaucracy also allows and helps communities to grow ...
aoû 27 23:20:44 JamesF Yeah.
aoû 27 23:20:44 kim_bruning mav, let's not do that
aoû 27 23:20:53 VampWillow Tim ... needs to be a two-way street to *some* extent, agreed
aoû 27 23:20:58 dannyisme at one time, we had people report on the state of their wikis
aoû 27 23:20:58 kim_bruning mav, some wikis ban too quickly
aoû 27 23:21:02 dannyisme coudl we revive that?
aoû 27 23:21:12 kim_bruning dannyisme, that would be good
aoû 27 23:21:19 kim_bruning currently the foundation has no linkage to the wikis
aoû 27 23:21:19 mav Vamp ; not it does not - it just slows things down
aoû 27 23:21:27 JamesF danny> Bit hard. I don't actually think anyone could do that for w:en, for example.
aoû 27 23:21:31 kim_bruning I already proposed old wikipeople and so to sometimes edit on wikis
aoû 27 23:21:32 soufron sure
aoû 27 23:21:33 britty "wikimedia news with other news of milestones"?
aoû 27 23:21:42 dannyisme james, i dont think en is teh problem
aoû 27 23:21:42 kim_bruning to get an impression of what's going on
aoû 27 23:21:47 JamesF danny> However.
aoû 27 23:21:51 dannyisme i would like to knw about a lot of other wiiis
aoû 27 23:21:55 britty the problem i found during WQ experiences
aoû 27 23:22:00 kim_bruning dannyisme, en has a lot of problems dealing with massive growth and massive size
aoû 27 23:22:00 dannyisme i wuld like to know how ukrainian is doing
aoû 27 23:22:01 mav britty ; a page on meta already does that
aoû 27 23:22:07 mav two pages in fact
aoû 27 23:22:10 kim_bruning JamesF, well we have the english signpost
aoû 27 23:22:12 britty mav but it doesn't work
aoû 27 23:23:09 britty i don't think to give power to reps will solve this issue,
aoû 27 23:23:13 mav wikicouncil should grow organically ; based on need and the activity of people already doing things ; we should just then recogize that by giving those people an official title
aoû 27 23:23:19 britty even if it makes this work more attractive
aoû 27 23:23:44 mav so we first need to cultivate things in such as way as to encourage people to particpate
aoû 27 23:23:45 britty communiction between wikis will need such gimick
aoû 27 23:23:51 mav embassy was an idea, but failed
aoû 27 23:24:06 mav we need to find out why it failed and try to revive it
aoû 27 23:24:24 Anthere http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports
aoû 27 23:24:29 soufron yes
aoû 27 23:24:33 dungodung ambasadors don't have any priviledges
aoû 27 23:24:40 dungodung they are just figures
aoû 27 23:24:45 britty no, but its' not the problem
aoû 27 23:24:57 dungodung maybe some priviledges would motivate people
aoû 27 23:25:01 britty its problem is its invisibility and inactivity
aoû 27 23:25:02 dori the reason embassies and the council will fail is due to the number of editors and commitments of those editors in the various wikis, not everyone has/wants to spend as much time on these matters
aoû 27 23:25:06 Angela shall we try this global noticeboard first and if that doesn't work, come back to the council idea?
aoû 27 23:25:17 britty Angela sounds good
aoû 27 23:25:26 britty noticeboard but in which language
aoû 27 23:25:31 dannyisme http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports
aoû 27 23:25:31 Anthere what is exactly the global notice board ?
aoû 27 23:25:44 Angela all languages. Some way of easily translating messages on it
aoû 27 23:25:51 mav dungodung ; then the board should ask ambassadors to participate ; the board should seek out their council ; the ambassadors should be chosen by their comminites.
aoû 27 23:25:54 dori Angela: that would only work if it's a gobal page on every wiki, write-only on meta, read-everywhere
aoû 27 23:25:59 kim_bruning Angela, global noticeboard would be SO COOL!
aoû 27 23:25:59 VampWillow could someone who is a sysop on meta stop an IP going mad creating nonsense pages please (I'm not a sysop there so can't)
aoû 27 23:26:02 kim_bruning who's going to advertise?
aoû 27 23:26:06 britty neat idea but the problem is
aoû 27 23:26:08 britty 1) translation
aoû 27 23:26:35 kim_bruning can we all translate to english and then to local langauges?
aoû 27 23:26:38 britty 2) the information local people want to let others know and the others want to know are frequently different
aoû 27 23:26:39 * kim_bruning listens to britty more
aoû 27 23:26:40 Angela if there are software changes needed for it, can someone make specifications for those on meta?
aoû 27 23:26:47 kim_bruning britty, too true!
aoû 27 23:26:51 kim_bruning so we need wikispies ;-)
aoû 27 23:27:12 kim_bruning Angela, I think a plain set of wikipages will do fine!
aoû 27 23:27:19 Angela really?
aoû 27 23:27:29 Angela how would anyone be notified about messages there?
aoû 27 23:27:29 mav what the heck is the difference between clicking on a link that takes you to a page on meta vs a page on the same subdomain?
aoû 27 23:27:36 mav it is *still* a click
aoû 27 23:27:38 mav one click
aoû 27 23:27:44 dori mav: people won't bother to click
aoû 27 23:27:47 britty so good organizers and a sort of info market is necessary imo
aoû 27 23:27:48 Angela if it was that easy, people would read Wikimedia News, Goings-on etc
aoû 27 23:27:51 kim_bruning Angela, Hmm... good point...
aoû 27 23:27:59 dori it's a different wiki, hence a different universe
aoû 27 23:28:03 Angela but they don't, and they complain they don't know what's going on
aoû 27 23:28:04 kim_bruning Let me ponder on that!
aoû 27 23:28:08 mav dori ; why the hell would they click if it is internal vs on their own wiki?
aoû 27 23:28:09 britty "xx community wants to know on copyright issues on XX"
aoû 27 23:28:10 kim_bruning Angela, Indeed they do!
aoû 27 23:28:18 mav how the hell would they know!!??
aoû 27 23:28:28 kim_bruning 2 ways about it
aoû 27 23:28:29 Angela I'd like some sort of "you have new messages" box appear on any wiki when there are new global noticeboard notices
aoû 27 23:28:34 kim_bruning we can have a human infrastructure
aoû 27 23:28:39 kim_bruning or a software infrastructure
aoû 27 23:28:53 kim_bruning if we're going to start experimentally, it's going to have to be a human infrastructure anyway
aoû 27 23:28:58 dori mav: the local page is part of that community, the meta page is off somewhere else, smaller wikis have enough trouble keeping people interested in that wiki, they're not going to bother with another wiki, and that's what's happened so far
aoû 27 23:29:05 kim_bruning no poijnt writing software if we don't know what it is we should be writing! :-)
aoû 27 23:29:09 kim_bruning no point
aoû 27 23:29:11 Angela if no software changes are needed, we can just keep updating the news section on meta. I don't believe that is enough though
aoû 27 23:29:15 mav dori ; global issues are put on meta
aoû 27 23:29:27 dori mav: yes, and they stay there
aoû 27 23:29:28 kim_bruning Angela, we need to get volunteers to disseminate the information
aoû 27 23:29:31 britty dori true
aoû 27 23:29:34 kim_bruning Angela, let them do this for a couple of weeks
aoû 27 23:29:37 kim_bruning Angela, see what they're doing
aoû 27 23:29:51 kim_bruning Angela, and then maybe have bots assist them
aoû 27 23:29:57 kim_bruning Angela, in a while the infrastructure will evolve :-)
aoû 27 23:30:07 dori kim_bruning: won't work, volunteers come and go, we need to push not to disseminate information
aoû 27 23:30:13 kim_bruning Angela, as long as we strongly encourage for the infrastructure to exist :-)
aoû 27 23:30:22 britty one of problems of meta is it is written in english
aoû 27 23:30:24 mav but I do like the idea of trans-wiki template messages
aoû 27 23:30:32 kim_bruning dori, well yes, that's why we aid them with code as much as possible
aoû 27 23:30:37 mav those could be used for fund drives
aoû 27 23:30:38 britty most of ja people think it "english prj"
aoû 27 23:30:44 kim_bruning britty, we don't have a universal language
aoû 27 23:31:01 kim_bruning britty, I'm quite aware of that problem on nl projects too
aoû 27 23:31:03 dori english is the de facto language of the internet
aoû 27 23:31:08 Angela trans-wiki template messages are possible now. We're using them on Wikicities
aoû 27 23:31:10 kim_bruning dori, sort of
aoû 27 23:31:17 kim_bruning Angela, Oh interesting!
aoû 27 23:31:26 kim_bruning Angela, if we have those templates, let's apply them!
aoû 27 23:31:00 mav we need to ability to switch the languge interface based on adding somthing like &lanag=xx t
aoû 27 23:31:00 britty trans-wiki template solves information problem to some extent
aoû 27 23:31:00 Angela mav: that's possible too
aoû 27 23:32:00 britty like share wikimedia news on every project
aoû 27 23:32:00 cormaggio what about a "Wikimedia news" section for each project below the equivalent of "in the news" on the main page - again by volunteers or bots?
aoû 27 23:32:00 Angela http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&uselang=ar
aoû 27 23:32:00 britty locally they can translate it, if preferable
aoû 27 23:32:00 mav then people who enter from a Japaneses wiki, for example, will see an interface in Japanese *without* have to log-in
aoû 27 23:32:34 kim_bruning I'll hear more about transwiki templates later?
aoû 27 23:32:49 kim_bruning mav, now THAT would be useful, and a minor prob?
aoû 27 23:33:05 britty cormaggio sounds good but partly
aoû 27 23:33:16 britty i heard some complaints even to commons
aoû 27 23:33:20 mav I don't think it would be too hard to setup - since people can already change their language interface in their prefs
aoû 27 23:33:34 kim_bruning submit to bugtracker?
aoû 27 23:33:40 mav we just need a way to trigger it for anons - and for cookies to remember
aoû 27 23:34:12 EdPoor I wrote a script that converts romaji to hiragana, if that helps.
aoû 27 23:34:14 * LeonWP_ is now known as LeonWP
aoû 27 23:34:24 mav Ed :)
aoû 27 23:34:28 Angela it already works for individual pages. It just forgets when you next click on a link - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&uselang=ja
aoû 27 23:34:37 EdPoor I could put it in my monobook.js
aoû 27 23:34:38 mav wow!
aoû 27 23:34:57 mav somebody just needs to do the cookie thing\
aoû 27 23:35:22 Anthere hmmmm
aoû 27 23:35:31 Anthere right, but this will inform poeple only one way
aoû 27 23:35:35 kim_bruning EdPoor, cute, can it also go for kanji?
aoû 27 23:35:53 kim_bruning EdPoor, actually ask TAW maybe, he might already know ways to do that
aoû 27 23:36:18 britty sound neat but i said the problem for ja people are stuffs written in english
aoû 27 23:36:31 kim_bruning britty, we need translators, ne?
aoû 27 23:36:46 mav can we get brion to do the cookie thing? Or do we ask a volunteer?
aoû 27 23:36:49 britty it is impossible to provide all translation of meta or shared project VP discussion
aoû 27 23:37:05 TimStarling so what sort of wikimedia news were you thinking of announcing? just software changes?
aoû 27 23:37:10 britty kim_bruning agreed
aoû 27 23:37:17 mav I think a large part of the problem is that meta is seen as an English thing
aoû 27 23:37:22 brion mav: is that not already done? probably not hard if the url param is there
aoû 27 23:37:25 Anthere well, it is
aoû 27 23:37:36 Angela no, not just software changes
aoû 27 23:37:51 mav brion ; it is done that way alredy - it just needs to remember
aoû 27 23:37:54 mav http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&uselang=ja
aoû 27 23:37:55 brion ok
aoû 27 23:38:10 Anthere how can we mix that with the wikimedia announcement mailing list ?
aoû 27 23:38:20 britty mav and people are happy with translation but few are happy to engage to translate the stuffs they want to read
aoû 27 23:38:20 Anthere and how can we avoid only top down announcement ?
aoû 27 23:38:26 mav another ml?
aoû 27 23:38:47 britty ml woundn't work i'm afraid
aoû 27 23:38:55 TimStarling what exactly does wikimedia do that's worthy of announcement on ja.wikipedia?
aoû 27 23:39:04 mav simple announcements can be done on meta
aoû 27 23:39:23 britty some sort of policy like privacy policy
aoû 27 23:39:26 kim_bruning TimStarling, quite a lot, possibly
aoû 27 23:39:32 mav official announcements can also be done on wmf wiki
aoû 27 23:39:42 britty i read once "privacy policy on meta has no legitimacy to appy on ja
aoû 27 23:39:44 britty apply
aoû 27 23:39:46 Anthere why more interesting on en.wikipedia than on ja.wikipedia tim ???
aoû 27 23:39:59 * kim_bruning kerscrams
aoû 27 23:40:02 kim_bruning laters folks!
aoû 27 23:40:06 akl_ i would prefer a blog for announcements. you know, this kind of software was made for this ;)
aoû 27 23:40:07 TimStarling Anthere, what do you mean?
aoû 27 23:40:07 britty "because it's another wiki"
aoû 27 23:40:08 Anthere let me show you a link I found today
aoû 27 23:40:08 Angela TimStarling: the point is so everyone can know what is going on with the whole project if they want to have that information. Why should only en wikipedia be told that tlh or wikispecies are closing?
aoû 27 23:40:14 Anthere I think it might amuse some of you
aoû 27 23:40:16 Anthere http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_site_feedback#Interface_languages
aoû 27 23:40:35 TimStarling thank you Angela
aoû 27 23:40:59 Anthere Tim, I think that if something Wikimedia do is worthy of announcement on en.wikipedia, then it is equally worth on japanese wikipedia
aoû 27 23:41:02 Anthere or even more
aoû 27 23:41:28 mav hi jason
aoû 27 23:41:29 Angela I think we may as well experiment with the blog idea
aoû 27 23:41:37 kim_bruning would using babelfish help at all?
aoû 27 23:41:39 * kim_bruning ducks
aoû 27 23:41:46 britty kim_bruning almost nothing
aoû 27 23:41:51 kim_bruning right
aoû 27 23:41:51 VampWillow NO NO NO NO!!!!!
aoû 27 23:41:51 kim_bruning how about UW?
aoû 27 23:42:07 akl_ Angela: let's set up blog.wikimedia.org and see what happens
aoû 27 23:42:12 * kim_bruning also was wearing ear-protection so vampwillows cries come through quite muffled
aoû 27 23:42:14 mav kim ; just link to babelfish - do NOT use it to post transaltions that appear official
aoû 27 23:42:24 kim_bruning mav, that's what I was thinking ;-)
aoû 27 23:42:32 Anthere blog open to who ?
aoû 27 23:42:39 kim_bruning babelfish did need mentioning though
aoû 27 23:42:40 mav good idea - when/until a translation is made
aoû 27 23:42:45 akl_ Anthere: trusted people ;)
aoû 27 23:42:46 britty (to reps ?)
aoû 27 23:42:53 kim_bruning long term, omegaT and ultimate wiktionary might be able to help (cue GerardM)
aoû 27 23:42:56 Angela anyone with an account of wikimediafoundation.org ?
aoû 27 23:42:59 kim_bruning but we don't have those yet :-)
aoû 27 23:43:03 kim_bruning Ok, off I go
aoû 27 23:43:04 kim_bruning laters!
aoû 27 23:43:07 Angela bye Kim
aoû 27 23:43:09 Zscout370 Babelfish was somewhat helpful, but I think we could just post the report in English and try to have natives translate them text. Plus, how frequent will these "state of the Wiki" messages be posted?
aoû 27 23:43:11 JamesF Angela> Other than you? :-)
aoû 27 23:43:15 JamesF Bye kim.
aoû 27 23:43:19 mav Speaking of which, we need to get more people editing the foundation wiki
aoû 27 23:43:21 britty (waves to kim
aoû 27 23:43:27 Anthere akl_ few even make the update of the news template :-(
aoû 27 23:43:29 VampWillow au revoir Kim ...
aoû 27 23:43:30 Angela I mean the people allowed to access the blog could be anyone with an account of wikimediafoundation.org
aoû 27 23:43:34 Anthere bye kim
aoû 27 23:43:40 kim_bruning au revoir, ja ne, etc :)
aoû 27 23:43:45 mav why is blog needed?
aoû 27 23:43:50 mav a blog
aoû 27 23:44:03 JamesF mav> The people who edit it have to be rather more trusted than average, though.
aoû 27 23:44:04 britty to exchange information and announcement ?
aoû 27 23:44:15 Angela to give announcements in a format that people can subscribe to and be notified of
aoû 27 23:44:18 akl_ Anthere: yep, perhaps because nobody gets feedback on the posted news. a blog would allow this
aoû 27 23:44:21 mav jamesF ; whoever is on the council should be able to edit
aoû 27 23:44:28 Anthere akl_ good point
aoû 27 23:44:42 britty nods
aoû 27 23:44:55 JamesF mav> Yeah, I suppose.
aoû 27 23:44:58 britty it motivate bloggers
aoû 27 23:45:02 Angela people could add different parts of the blog to their rss readers, so if you only want french server news, you would only see stuff in that category
aoû 27 23:45:21 akl_ Angela: *nod*
aoû 27 23:45:23 JamesF Angela> Cool idea. Not sure if that's possible, though... ?
aoû 27 23:45:26 Angela perhaps this could be automatically syndicated onto the wikis in future
aoû 27 23:45:29 mav this sounds like the bb idea all over again - that didn't go well either
aoû 27 23:45:34 brion as for blogs... we could do an aggregator rather than running our own group blog.
aoû 27 23:45:39 notafish_ JamesF: Wikimedia Deutschland has done it on their front page
aoû 27 23:45:43 JamesF mav> The off-site boards? They were hated.
aoû 27 23:45:51 VampWillow I would much prefer to see something transcluded into the front page though rather than rely on people to sign up to something extra
aoû 27 23:45:52 JamesF notafish> The topic-segmenting?
aoû 27 23:46:04 notafish_ JamesF: no, the blog :)
aoû 27 23:46:09 * Angela likes brion's idea
aoû 27 23:46:11 JamesF VampWillow> Well, SUL will alow the blog to be accessed the same...
aoû 27 23:46:26 JamesF notafish> Oh, right. Yes. OK, cool idea of Wikimedia DE. :-)
aoû 27 23:46:28 TimStarling transclusion doesn't automatically translate things
aoû 27 23:46:33 britty not opinion but observations and announcement
aoû 27 23:46:35 akl_ and if some people prefer mails, we already have a blog->mail wordpress extension in use on wikimedia.de
aoû 27 23:46:47 JamesF brion> Eww. That requires, well, posters to have their own blog.
aoû 27 23:46:47 TimStarling if you want to disseminate information to other languages, it has to be done by translation
aoû 27 23:46:50 britty like announcment already existed on their wiki into other languages
aoû 27 23:46:54 Anthere brion, would it require that people have their onw personal blog to make it work ?
aoû 27 23:46:59 brion JamesF: live effing journal ;)
aoû 27 23:46:59 TimStarling and while you're translating, you may as well move it to another wiki
aoû 27 23:47:01 JamesF brion> Doesn't it? Because needing to have a blog to post is a bit of a pain.
aoû 27 23:47:03 VampWillow but the blog should be included into a section of the front page (or better community portal)
aoû 27 23:47:05 mav TimStarling ; the people on Chinese wikipedia can read Chinese just as well as those on the Chinese Wiktionary
aoû 27 23:47:09 JamesF brion> No-effing-way? ;-)
aoû 27 23:47:16 brion bwahaha
aoû 27 23:47:22 JamesF brion> Why bother getting a personal blog just so that you can edit.
aoû 27 23:47:26 mav no need for separate copies on each wiki
aoû 27 23:47:29 JamesF It's rather antithetical.
aoû 27 23:47:45 brion depends on what this thing is supposed to do
aoû 27 23:47:51 Angela I would just rather we tried *something* instead of discussing it forever. Just go with one idea, for a month, and then see if it worked, rather than trying to guess whether it would
aoû 27 23:47:55 JamesF Disseminate official information.
aoû 27 23:48:01 brion official, eh?
aoû 27 23:48:06 JamesF Quasi-official.
aoû 27 23:48:06 brion well that's a scary matter then.
aoû 27 23:48:20 mav just use meta
aoû 27 23:48:25 JamesF Official by means of being a statement by and with members of the community.
aoû 27 23:48:28 TimStarling we have the quarto too
aoû 27 23:48:29 brion well i'd love an aggregator anyway (like planetgnome and all those)
aoû 27 23:48:29 Anthere blog will have no translation
aoû 27 23:48:32 JamesF With feedback.
aoû 27 23:48:34 Anthere I am not very happy with this
aoû 27 23:48:40 mav once anons see an interface in their own language, then things will be better
aoû 27 23:48:57 brion an announcement feed could be set up to provide translation
aoû 27 23:49:00 brion but that might be more work
aoû 27 23:49:02 Angela Anthere: why couldn't it be translated?
aoû 27 23:49:18 TimStarling we could buy our own instance of systran and use it to translate these messages, if it wasn't for the whole free software only thing
aoû 27 23:49:23 Anthere a blog ???
aoû 27 23:49:27 britty on blogs (like bloggers) you can hve your language interface
aoû 27 23:49:35 Anthere how could we translate a blog ???
aoû 27 23:49:44 JamesF Carefully.
aoû 27 23:49:49 JamesF (Sorry. :-))
aoû 27 23:49:52 Angela in the same way we translate the news section of wikimediafoundation.org
aoû 27 23:49:55 mav why reinvent the wheel? Aren't we a *wiki* community?
aoû 27 23:50:00 Anthere Angela, would you consider translating your own blog in 15 languages ???
aoû 27 23:50:00 VampWillow Anthere> I agree with you - seems the wrong way to go about it to my mind .. overkill!
aoû 27 23:50:05 notafish_ I think we should just stop with the translation thing. If it's not translated, well, too bad, if it is, all the better
aoû 27 23:50:10 Angela is this really so different from a blog? http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:News-en
aoû 27 23:50:16 * Anthere is totally confused
aoû 27 23:50:23 Anthere well, I know on which page to go to translate
aoû 27 23:50:28 Anthere I can not translate your blog
aoû 27 23:50:30 akl_ Anthere: look at the wikimedia news section in different languages. is it really helpful if people that choose another language than english are months behind the current news ?
aoû 27 23:50:32 Angela Anthere: if people want to translate it, they should do so
aoû 27 23:50:32 notafish_ the problem with translation is either you have an army of people whoa re ready to do it at your back and call, or things stay untranslated for ever
aoû 27 23:50:45 notafish_ which is worse than having them in just one language, imvho
aoû 27 23:50:48 JamesF Angela> It's the pointwise-response that we'd like, I think.
aoû 27 23:50:58 JamesF notafish> Yeah.
aoû 27 23:50:59 akl_ Anthere: better one language than more that are not accurate
aoû 27 23:51:00 britty Angela most of editors don't think it is the space they CAN submit something
aoû 27 23:51:12 britty or don't want to
aoû 27 23:51:25 Anthere akl_ I am really unconvinced
aoû 27 23:51:25 notafish_ Angela: look at the german version of the news on wikimediafoundation
aoû 27 23:51:31 Anthere this a lazy opinion
aoû 27 23:51:34 britty or just don't think their info deserves to issue there
aoû 27 23:51:34 notafish_ Angela: i's 4 months old
aoû 27 23:51:46 notafish_ Anthere: no, it's practical
aoû 27 23:51:51 notafish_ not lazy
aoû 27 23:51:53 Anthere the main issue is that on WMF we have few editors
aoû 27 23:51:56 Anthere so it is not translated
aoû 27 23:52:08 mav we need more editors, yes
aoû 27 23:52:09 Angela so if wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:News-en was on meta, it would be more translated?
aoû 27 23:52:13 mav but how to choose them?
aoû 27 23:52:14 Anthere but if the issue is there, I can put all my announcements in french from now on
aoû 27 23:52:14 JamesF How many, BTW?
aoû 27 23:52:34 britty Angela see TR
aoû 27 23:52:42 britty I put en and fr versions on meta
aoû 27 23:52:45 Angela james: 55
aoû 27 23:52:54 britty before two weeks but they haven't been translated
aoû 27 23:53:09 JamesF Angela> I'm surprised there are so many, TBH. I suppose all the chapter people...
aoû 27 23:53:10 Angela so we just need a better organised translation team?
aoû 27 23:53:18 mindspillage Aren't there translators' noticebaord and translators' mailing lists to coordinate efforts like this? Why aren't they doing this, if it is such a great concern (and it is).
aoû 27 23:53:20 britty the place woulnd't be the problem - how to motivate people to translate those things is the problem
aoû 27 23:53:22 britty like embassy
aoû 27 23:53:37 Angela there is a translators mailing list. It's not very often used
aoû 27 23:53:46 dungodung I think that meta and WMF should be merged
aoû 27 23:54:09 dannyisme meta and wmf should not be merged
aoû 27 23:54:15 mav just make embassy official and have the ambassadors elected for terms of one year
aoû 27 23:54:18 Anthere it could be possible with group access
aoû 27 23:54:18 dungodung why not?
aoû 27 23:54:20 britty in concur with danny
aoû 27 23:54:21 notafish_ Angela: we need a paid tranlation team ;)
aoû 27 23:54:30 JamesF dungodung> Hmm. No. meta is the community wiki, WMF is the Foundation's organ.
aoû 27 23:54:38 britty notafish_ that is what i have been thinking
aoû 27 23:54:40 dannyisme because most people cannot edit wmf
aoû 27 23:54:51 akl_ dungodung: we need a dedicated place for official stuff
aoû 27 23:54:52 notafish_ and we need a few "official" languages
aoû 27 23:54:57 VampWillow danny ... no; they have different remits altohugh a lot of cross-over
aoû 27 23:54:57 JamesF notafish> Eurgh. Expensive.
aoû 27 23:55:06 britty payment or some sorts of incentive is necessary imo
aoû 27 23:55:06 mindspillage WMF I see as the "glossy" version of the site. How we present ourselves to the world outside the community.
aoû 27 23:55:08 dungodung then quit bitching about how few people there are on WMF
aoû 27 23:55:09 JamesF notafish> How about "English".? ;-)
aoû 27 23:55:16 TimStarling you could use machine translation on your home computer
aoû 27 23:55:17 notafish_ I am sorryu, but in my opinion, it is completely unrealistic to think we can translate all news in "real time"
aoû 27 23:55:23 TimStarling forget to tell anyone that it's not free software
aoû 27 23:55:25 * JamesF nods.
aoû 27 23:55:26 britty notafish_ agreed
aoû 27 23:55:32 JamesF We just can't do that.
aoû 27 23:55:33 dannyisme agreed
aoû 27 23:55:39 britty but if necessary we can provide several language within some hours
aoû 27 23:55:41 VampWillow JamesF> please refer to earlier comment about en-XX !!
aoû 27 23:55:42 mav my original idea for the foundation wiki was to transclude the whole thing from protected pages on meta
aoû 27 23:55:44 britty like yahoo! news
aoû 27 23:55:50 mav I still think that is the best idea
aoû 27 23:56:01 JamesF VampWillow> en-GB, with .ogg versions spoken in RP. Obviously. :-)
aoû 27 23:56:05 britty over five langs wre provided within a half hour
aoû 27 23:56:14 cormaggio FWIW, I think Sabine Cretella is working on a sort of "LETS" style currency for translators
aoû 27 23:56:15 britty so the motivation is the key
aoû 27 23:56:22 VampWillow JamesF> indeed. no estury (sic) for us!
aoû 27 23:56:24 notafish_ that Quarto, for example, should be translated, is good, and that should definitely be kept
aoû 27 23:56:29 JamesF VampWillow> Innit.
aoû 27 23:56:36 notafish_ but I think that news on wmf website in English are fine
aoû 27 23:56:44 * JamesF fights the urge to shout "respec'".
aoû 27 23:57:01 Anthere :-)
aoû 27 23:57:03 VampWillow JamesF> I should refer you to my LiveJournal rants on the subject of "english" usage earlier in the weel ...
aoû 27 23:57:06 mav don't fight it - let it go :)
aoû 27 23:57:15 Anthere the WMF site is not an english only site
aoû 27 23:57:17 Angela perhaps it would be more useful to arrange a separate meeting to discuss translation issues. I don't think a lot of the people involved with translations are here now, and this meeting has been going on for nearly 2 hours
aoû 27 23:57:22 JamesF Vamp> Looking (even though I don't believe in blogs).
aoû 27 23:57:44 britty "communication meeting" ?
aoû 27 23:57:58 Angela perhaps
aoû 27 23:57:59 mav I agree with Angela - this is a complicated issue that we are not prepared to settle here and now
aoû 27 23:58:01 JamesF Angela> Yeah, I'm getting a little tired.
aoû 27 23:58:16 dungodung should we call it a day?
aoû 27 23:58:19 mav so have we decided *anything* during this meeting?
aoû 27 23:58:20 Anthere anyway, should we try a common blog ?
aoû 27 23:58:24 Anthere would it be beneficial ?
aoû 27 23:58:27 VampWillow tbh, the translation issue is never going to be "settled" anyway (cf. Euro parliament)
aoû 27 23:58:30 mav no blog
aoû 27 23:58:31 akl_ Anthere: yes
aoû 27 23:58:36 Anthere ...
aoû 27 23:58:44 britty it worths to try
aoû 27 23:58:45 notafish_ yes blog
aoû 27 23:58:47 notafish_ :P
aoû 27 23:58:51 dungodung no blog
aoû 27 23:59:02 Anthere et ben
aoû 27 23:59:03 mindspillage I think the common blog will just end up being mostly English anyway and duplicate the content already posted in too many different places. :-/
aoû 27 23:59:04 TimShell 1) No uploads of Dutch library stuff; waiting for more details from them
aoû 27 23:59:09 Anthere it is gonna be easy....
aoû 27 23:59:09 mav again ; what can a blog do that we don't do now but need?
aoû 27 23:59:16 VampWillow no blog ... no benefit over a wiki page
aoû 27 23:59:27 Anthere mav, as akl said, comments on posting
aoû 27 23:59:32 TimShell 2) wikinews needs different licensing; all wikinewsies need to be informed of the issue
aoû 27 23:59:35 Angela shall we say 7 September for the translation meeting?
aoû 27 23:59:37 britty mindspillage for ja editors it is a problem en is too large to crawl
aoû 27 23:59:39 Anthere which is notreally possible on WMF rightnow
aoû 27 23:59:47 TimShell 3) Sep11 wiki to be locked
aoû 27 23:59:51 mav anthere ; ever seen that talk page tab at the top of pages?
aoû 28 00:00:11 britty signpost is oriented to local interest and not helpful for such editors
aoû 28 00:00:16 mav we can have talk page links for *every* post
aoû 28 00:00:19 TimShell 4) wikispecies kept in hold pattern pending wikidata
aoû 28 00:00:26 mindspillage britty: I'm sure it is... I just don't think a blog is the best solution.
aoû 28 00:00:27 akl_ mav: ever tried to click it on the wmf "wiki" while you were not logged in?
aoû 28 00:00:28 Anthere mav, talk page tab on WMF is not so interesting for most readers
aoû 28 00:00:32 Anthere as they can not edit
aoû 28 00:00:32 mav and transclude each post onto one page
aoû 28 00:00:39 TimShell 5) incubator wiki committee to form and debate rules on a wiki somewhere
aoû 28 00:00:51 Angela TimShell: are you going to post notes from this meeting?
aoû 28 00:00:58 Anthere Tim, I disagree on point 3 totally
aoû 28 00:01:02 mav Anthere ; the talk page would be on meta - or on the foundation wiki if that can be done
aoû 28 00:01:12 Anthere we said "make a policy page for closing of wiki, then propose sept 11"
aoû 28 00:01:17 TimShell Ant - what did we decide about that one ?
aoû 28 00:01:22 Anthere mav, we can try this
aoû 28 00:01:22 TimStarling Anthere and Angela seem to be the only ones disagreeing on point 3
aoû 28 00:01:26 TimStarling I'm not sure why
aoû 28 00:01:31 Anthere lol
aoû 28 00:01:36 mav I still like the trans-wiki transclusion idea
aoû 28 00:01:37 notafish_ mav: that's shuttling between two wikis, that won't work
aoû 28 00:01:51 Angela you can just point the talk pages at meta with templates like this - http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Talk:Meetings/August_14%2C_2005
aoû 28 00:01:51 VampWillow Tim ... I'm not sure #3 was a firm decision ... seemed opne still at end of discussion
aoû 28 00:02:01 mav notafish ; ideally all talk pages on the foundatio wiki should be editable
aoû 28 00:02:07 TimStarling well, we'll just leave it to gather spam for another month or two shall we?
aoû 28 00:02:10 mav this is *needed* rather badly, imo
aoû 28 00:02:15 TimStarling and come back next meeting to see if anything's changed?
aoû 28 00:02:22 mindspillage Concur with mav.
aoû 28 00:02:23 TimShell Yes, I'll post brief summary and link to log
aoû 28 00:02:32 britty mav how about redirection to meta
aoû 28 00:02:33 cormaggio Is the incubator wiki committee relating to seed wikis?
aoû 28 00:02:34 Angela mav: they shouldn't. That wiki needs to be kept free from junk
aoû 28 00:02:35 notafish_ mav: yep
aoû 28 00:02:37 Anthere I thought we agreed to set up a policy page for closing wikis ?
aoû 28 00:02:42 TimShell seed = incubator
aoû 28 00:02:47 dannyisme i agree with angela here
aoû 28 00:02:49 Anthere I even think I volunteered and several agreed
aoû 28 00:02:54 Anthere did I understand well ?
aoû 28 00:02:54 Angela yes
aoû 28 00:02:54 TimShell since seedwiki is used by someone else I used term incubator
aoû 28 00:02:57 dannyisme wmf is our face to tyhe world
aoû 28 00:03:08 mav Angela - it is a talk page, each talk page on the foundation wiki could have a disclaimer
aoû 28 00:03:09 dannyisme it should be kept as clean as possible from all spam
aoû 28 00:03:14 cormaggio TimShell: thanks
aoû 28 00:03:21 Angela mav: meta is for talking
aoû 28 00:03:29 JamesF danny> Yeah.
aoû 28 00:03:31 Angela just use {{meeting talk}} and send people to the right wiki
aoû 28 00:03:39 mav Angela ; then have all the news there
aoû 28 00:03:44 VampWillow "incubator" is best terminology I feel
aoû 28 00:03:56 dannyisme wikubator
aoû 28 00:04:02 Angela the news should be transcludable wherever people want to see it
aoû 28 00:04:03 TimShell That's 2+ hours
aoû 28 00:04:06 britty how abut wikicradle
aoû 28 00:04:12 TimShell I move Anthere says "meeting done"
aoû 28 00:04:13 mav then the *only* news on the foundation wiki will be stuff that is *directly* related to the foundation ; such as getting a grant
aoû 28 00:04:15 notafish_ Angela: going from one wiki to another is not an option, in my opinion
aoû 28 00:04:31 Anthere hmmm
aoû 28 00:04:32 Angela that's why you transclude it into the place you want it
aoû 28 00:04:40 mav nota ; then keep the news on meta
aoû 28 00:04:45 Anthere well, if we agree on the conclusion, yes, it can be done
aoû 28 00:04:48 Anthere but now, I feel confused
aoû 28 00:05:09 Anthere oh well
aoû 28 00:05:28 mav did we agree to anything this meeting?
aoû 28 00:05:46 Anthere not to create a wikicouncil for now it seems...
aoû 28 00:05:53 VampWillow "wikibator" sounds like a sex shop should sell it though ... ;-P
aoû 28 00:06:02 notafish_ mav: we need to talk further on this talk page issue ;)
aoû 28 00:06:02 Anthere not to close wikispecies
aoû 28 00:06:05 mav that is a horrible name
aoû 28 00:06:06 soufron ...
aoû 28 00:06:17 Angela we agreed when the wikinews vote would be, and when the translation meeting would be
aoû 28 00:06:23 britty and wikinews in pd won't be in the future
aoû 28 00:06:27 brion winkubator
aoû 28 00:06:33 soufron "wikibator... good vibes for you and us"
aoû 28 00:06:44 mav sounds like masterbator to me
aoû 28 00:06:46 Anthere wikalbator
aoû 28 00:06:57 notafish_ Anthere: LMAO
aoû 28 00:06:58 VampWillow wikimake?
aoû 28 00:07:10 * notafish_ chante..; Albator, Albator, bien plus fort que la mort
aoû 28 00:07:16 Angela why not just demo.wikimedia.org?
aoû 28 00:07:19 mav just have it be a subdomain of wikimedia
aoû 28 00:07:29 Zscout370 so, what is going to happen to Simple English and the Klingon Wikipedias?
aoû 28 00:07:31 mav demo is a great idea
aoû 28 00:07:35 notafish_ Angela: I like demo
aoû 28 00:07:35 britty nods
aoû 28 00:07:37 Angela if you try to give it a flashy name, it's going to appear even more like a new wiki hosting site
aoû 28 00:07:44 VampWillow I don't think anyone has suggested deleting Simple-en ?
aoû 28 00:07:55 Anthere demo speaks to everyone I think
aoû 28 00:07:56 britty but opposed by several
aoû 28 00:07:57 Angela Zscout370: nothing for now
aoû 28 00:07:58 notafish_ and wikiquote? ;)
aoû 28 00:08:01 mav but things don't get put there w/o a process\
aoû 28 00:08:08 VampWillow 'demo' suggests not serious though ...
aoû 28 00:08:14 mav its not
aoû 28 00:08:15 Zscout370 Thanks Angela
aoû 28 00:08:20 Angela it's a demo of serious stuff
aoû 28 00:08:27 Anthere I agree with Angela
aoû 28 00:08:36 Angela wikinews is still called demo, and it doesn't come across as less serious
aoû 28 00:08:39 mav it is just an experiment to see if an idea a set of users want to try may work
aoû 28 00:09:05 Anthere okay, so meeting close
