Wikimedia Australia/Meeting 3/Log

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This is a log of Wikimedia Australia/Meeting 3, June 10 2006. Times are EST.

There is a summary of this log at Wikimedia Australia/Meeting 3/Summary.

[21:13] <Angela> Anyway, shall we start? The first point on the agenda is where to incorporate.
[21:14] <Angela> thanks to cartman02au for starting the page at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Australia/Organisation_Group - we now have some figures on what it would cost in each state. We don't really know if we need an audit, but if we do, the costs are pretty much the same in both VIC and NSW
[21:15] <Angela> Hopefully under $1200 either way.
[21:15] <cartman02au> generally auditing would not be required when we start out as we would be too small
[21:15] <cartman02au> in Victoria it is only when we are a "prescribed association" (I cant remember the figure) that we need to be audited. By that time I would encourage us to beocme a company
[21:16] <Angela> We could cover 1200 with only 30 members if we assume a membership fee of $40, which seems to be not too far off what the other chapters charge.
[21:16] <enochlau> "In addition, audits are required if we are to fundraise from the general public."
[21:16] <enochlau> what about that?
[21:16] <cartman02au> My belief is the state we have the most members in at startup should be where we incorporate
[21:16] <Angela> I think we do want to fundraise.
[21:16] <cartman02au> thanks for that, yes it would be required - BUT if our fundraising comes form members then it is different again
[21:16] <cartman02au> *from
[21:16] <enochlau> i see
[21:17] <Angela> This should probably be a major focus, to get money for the chapter and Foundation whilst raising awareness of the projects.
[21:17] <cartman02au> indeed
[21:17] <Angela> the members would hopefully cover the fees, but for any special projects we want to do, we need to find grants and fundraise (and fundraising is easier than getting grants)
[21:17] <cartman02au> the other issue is that we are going to have problems much like some of the European guys in sending money to the US
[21:18] <cartman02au> well in that case we probably need to be audited
[21:18] <Angela> Yes.
[21:18] <cartman02au> That has been my issue all along - where our income comes form will determine what form we take
[21:19] <enochlau> do we have any ballpark figures for where the money is coming from then?
[21:19] <enochlau> what can we expect?
[21:19] <Angela> not really yet. Is anyone experienced at making budgets?
[21:19] <cartman02au> a little
[21:20] <Angela> I can't think I've seen any budgets from the other chapters, but I'll have a look for those after the meeting and try and get some ideas.
[21:20] <cartman02au> I know the financial statements are available
[21:20] <enochlau> i've always wondered - what is the awareness of wikipedia in australian society?
[21:20] <enochlau> how many people know about us, and how many of those think of us favourably enough to donate?
[21:21] <cartman02au> I am not sure to be honest
[21:21] <cartman02au> I know within the NSW education system we arent very highly thought of
[21:21] <Angela> Awareness is not high enough. there's relatively little press, which is something the chapter could really change.
[21:21] <cartman02au> that was my primary motivation in being involved in this
[21:22] <Angela> is there anything other than the fees that make anyone think we should go with either Victoria or NSW?
[21:22] <enochlau> there was the issue of which state has more members
[21:22] <enochlau> (gah, where's everyone else?)
[21:23] <cartman02au> Angela: There are a stack of chapter budgets on internal
[21:23] <cartman02au> I think wherever the most members are should be where we incorporate
[21:23] <Angela> victoria has far more votes at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Australia/Base
[21:23] <Angela> But perhaps that poll hasn't been promoted enough yet.
[21:24] <cartman02au> My reason for that is it is fair to expect that the state with the most members would have at least one person on the governing committee
[21:24] <cartman02au> said person needs to be the public officer for dealing with the public
[21:24] <Angela> I wonder if it might be useful to say we will have at least 1 person from each state on the committee.
[21:24] <enochlau> i think so
[21:25] <enochlau> but from memory, in past meetings, we have said that the state we register in is merely paperwork
[21:25] <enochlau> we can have branches everywhere
[21:25] <enochlau> that are of equal standing
[21:25] <Angela> If there isn't anyone who wants to put in a big time committment, we could at least have someone in an advisory role from each state.
[21:25] <cartman02au> I'd agree with having advisors/reps if we go for branches
[21:26] <enochlau> where's most of the media contingent?
[21:26] <enochlau> sydney/melb?
[21:26] <cartman02au> I dont think it is fair for us to say there needs to be one member from each state on the committee, my vision of the committee is something that is democratically elected
[21:26] <Angela> in the early days, those branches should be informal. no need for too bureaucracy just yet :)
[21:26] <cartman02au> exactly
[21:26] <cartman02au> If we are dealing with a small number of members then there is no need for the extra work in that regard
[21:27] <cartman02au> enoch: I dont follow that
[21:27] <enochlau> even if we don't say that there needs to be one member from each state, i would expect that there will be anyway
[21:27] <enochlau> oh, i'm just asking where would be the best place to be if we want to interact with the media
[21:27] <Angela> Cartman02au: yes, that makes sense. I was just wondering if we could be representative while still having elections, but there may not be enough people involved to do that yet.
[21:28] <enochlau> if there is such a preference
[21:28] <cartman02au> I dont think there is to be honest
[21:28] <enochlau> o
[21:28] <Angela> The official base doesn't need to be where the media are. the press officer doesn't need to be in the state the chapter is based in.
[21:28] <enochlau> *ok
[21:28] <cartman02au> Angela: I think if we are having a smallish committee then elections arent really a problem
[21:29] <cartman02au> at the same time, I believe that we are intelligent enough to select the best person for each position
[21:29] <Angela> does anyone have thought on what size the committee should be?
[21:29] <cartman02au> around 5
[21:29] <Angela> As far as I know, the french didn't have a limit, so all supported people were on it, and then they elected a smaller exec from that.
[21:29] <Angela> It's a good way of making more people feel involved.
[21:29] <cartman02au> the committee is generally the exec
[21:29] <cartman02au> there is nothing stopping us having sub-committees
[21:30] <enochlau> at university, clubs get around limited execs by having sub committees
[21:30] <cartman02au> basically in an association the governing committee is like the board of directors
[21:30] <enochlau> that way, everyone gets a go
[21:31] <Angela> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim%C3%A9dia_France has 9
[21:31] <Angela> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Deutschland/Vorstand has 10
[21:31] <BrianNewZealand> Do you plan to have a way for impreachment to be done against a committee member?
[21:31] <cartman02au> from how many members?
[21:31] <enochlau> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Australia/Draft_Constitution
[21:31] <cartman02au> Brian: Generally there would be a grievance procedure
[21:31] <cartman02au> Brian: generally "impeachment" would need to be done via a special resolution by members
[21:32] <Angela> UK and Poland have 5.
[21:32] <enochlau> i dont think it's a major issue at the moent
[21:32] <enochlau> the impeachment thing
[21:32] <cartman02au> Smaller committees (in my opinion) work better
[21:32] <enochlau> i agree with the smaller committees, and each committee member has a subcommittee to help
[21:32] <cartman02au> at the same time they need to be representative of the members, hence where the number of members comes in
[21:32] <Angela> Swiss have 7. I can't find numbers for the others.
[21:33] <enochlau> i dont necessary think that more members ==> bigger exec
[21:33] <BrianNewZealand> agreed
[21:33] <cartman02au> probably not
[21:33] <Angela> Not necessarily, no. maybe more sub-committees.
[21:33] <cartman02au> again depends on our structure
[21:33] <enochlau> we'll need to make some final decisions soon
[21:33] <cartman02au> even though it can be a bit of a hassle, these things can be changed if we outgrow them
[21:34] <cartman02au> I know
[21:34] <enochlau> great work done so far, but we can't really proceed if it all boils down to "depends on structure" etc :)
[21:34] <cartman02au> I would love to be setup by Software freedom day
[21:34] <cartman02au> From the outset do we want formal branches?
[21:34] <enochlau> i think we do
[21:34] <cartman02au> why?
[21:34] <Angela> No, I think informal for now. there's hardly enough people to form a chapter, let alone official branches.
[21:34] <enochlau> i have a feeling that wikipedians in nsw would feel rather disenfranchised if there wasnt some structure in place in nsw, if we incorporated in vic
[21:34] <enochlau> and vice versa
[21:35] <cartman02au> I think we can take care of that informally
[21:35] <enochlau> alright
[21:35] <Angela> Keep it informal. the incorporation doesn't mean people in other states can't be involved, nor does it mean all meetings need to be in that state.
[21:35] <cartman02au> that is why we apply for registration as a national body
[21:35] <cartman02au> so we can operate in every state
[21:35] <cartman02au> I anticipate alot of our meetings will be here
[21:36] <cartman02au> We are promoting something that is online, I feel we should try to work online as much as possible
[21:36] <Angela> Depending on how often real life meetings will be, it would nice to have those in different places each time to make sure people are aware this is the Australian Chapter, not the Victorian Chapter.
[21:36] <BrianNewZealand> Does Aussie allow E-Meetings?
[21:36] <cartman02au> I know NSW associations and companies do
[21:37] <cartman02au> Given that the associations act is similar in each state I would say that if the rules allow it, it's allowed
[21:37] <enochlau> i think doing stuff online for people already involved with wikipedia would not be a problem with them
[21:37] <enochlau> it's more about the outreach and getting new members
[21:37] <Angela> I think victoria does, but I don't rememer who told me that, so it does need checking.
[21:37] <enochlau> having new members come to an online meeting is problematic =)
[21:37] <cartman02au> The problem is Australia is a damn big country
[21:37] <cartman02au> The nearest practical place for me to attend a meeting is 2-3hrs away and I cant do it :)
[21:38] <cartman02au> I couldnt say hey people come to Bathurst for a meeting (even though that would be cool)
[21:38] <BrianNewZealand> Come in the midde of the V8 :)
[21:38] <cartman02au> Brian: bring your own tent LOL
[21:39] <cartman02au> I think if we have branch meetings they are fine in person, whole of WMA meetings need to be able to involve people who can and cant attend in person
[21:39] <Angela> but those could be meetups like we already have, rather than formal "branch meetings"
[21:39] <cartman02au> Pretty much meetups are fine as they work now
[21:39] <cartman02au> LOL
[21:40] <cartman02au> that is beginning to scare me, repeating each other
[21:40] <enochlau> hmm the may sydney meet didn't quite materialise >.<
[21:41] <BrianNewZealand> Speaking about meetings, Auckland, New Zealand, is having a meetup in a couple of weeks,
[21:41] * cartman02au wishes he could travel
[21:41] <cartman02au> I'd be there for sure
[21:41] <Angela> The melbourne one hasn't happened recently either.
[21:41] <Angela> the next thing on the agenda was "Issues about the committee."
[21:41] <Angela> are there any?
[21:41] <cartman02au> The one thing I want to do is get more newsies involved in this too, although I dont believe there are that many aussies
[21:42] <cartman02au> well, are we going to have subcommittees?
[21:42] <enochlau> there some quite active ones, like dysprosia
[21:42] <enochlau> i'm always nicely surprised how much aust news gets on there
[21:42] <cartman02au> on Wikinews?
[21:42] <Angela> cartman02au: do we need to decide that in advance? Or make them as the need arises?
[21:42] <enochlau> yes
[21:42] <enochlau> perhaps have some predefined ones
[21:42] <enochlau> ones that we will definietly need
[21:42] <enochlau> like PR etc
[21:43] <cartman02au> Geez, I dont think I have seen dysprosia around, that scares me. It seems to be Elliot K, Borofkin and I that I see LOL
[21:43] <enochlau> but have the ability to create special ones as the need arises
[21:43] <Angela> Yes, PR or press makes sense, right from the start. I'm not sure of any others that we need immediately.
[21:43] <enochlau> cartman02au: dysprosia often reports from canberra with political news
[21:43] <Angela> Though since there's quite a lot of interest in education, perhaps a group could form to deal with those issues.
[21:44] <cartman02au> I think the ability should be there from the start but if we are saying that a committee member is responsible for a subcommittee we might want a rough idea
[21:44] <cartman02au> Angela: The problem with education is the lack of support within the primary and secondary sectors (or at least in NSW)
[21:44] <enochlau> then that's even more a reason to have a subcommittee!
[21:45] <cartman02au> DET is kinda pissed that noone can edit on wikipedia, at the same time it is too "unreliable"
[21:45] <enochlau> oh, editing is blocked from schools?
[21:45] <cartman02au> The tertiary sector is kind of divided
[21:45] <cartman02au> enoch: Yep, I cant edit from work, all NSW DET IPs have been blocked
[21:45] <enochlau> i just had my first uni course that referred us to wikipedia articles, i'm kinda happy
[21:45] <Angela> Outreach into the tertiary sector is something we should do.
[21:45] <cartman02au> enoch: If I get the edit fix from work I have to use my mobile LOL
[21:46] <Angela> are there any other groups we need right now other than press and education?
[21:46] <enochlau> they're blocked for persistent vandalism i suppose?
[21:46] <cartman02au> I agree, I will be (luckily) involved in tertiary education again soon, I am going back to do a GradDip in adult education and doing a prac in a VET organisation
[21:46] <cartman02au> I think so
[21:46] <enochlau> at universities, clubs for students are always possible
[21:47] <enochlau> connecting with academics might be a little harder
[21:47] <cartman02au> actually that surprises me
[21:47] <cartman02au> you would be surprised with academics
[21:47] <enochlau> they're busy enough as it is
[21:47] <enochlau> i know a few who use wikipedia as a quick reference
[21:47] <cartman02au> I got quite a bit of help form some recently with an article on Wikinews. Monash and unimelb kick ass
[21:47] <enochlau> they often comment to me that they dont have time to contribute
[21:48] <enochlau> sure, i think they might be ok with the one off help, but continual interaction might be pushing it
[21:48] <enochlau> at the same time, i think it would be feasible to interact with university departments as a whole
[21:48] <cartman02au> I was surprised I even got acknowledged!
[21:48] <cartman02au> The NSW Libs and Greens are damn good at replying too
[21:49] <cartman02au> Unfortunately the NSW ALP only replied two weeks after I contacted them and when the article was published to abuse me
[21:49] <enochlau> what article is this?
[21:49] <cartman02au> I did one on the NSW government rebuilding a local high school with private funding
[21:50] <cartman02au> I used to support the ALP but they have lost their way IMHO
[21:50] <Angela> I made a page at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Australia/Committees for signing up for committees
[21:50] <Angela> Or for showing interest in them at least.
[21:50] <enochlau> alright, what else do we need to do/discuss before we can hop off to the government and register ourselves?
[21:51] <cartman02au> My favourite wikinews moment was getting a lecture off the legendary Richard Stallman via email :)
[21:51] <Angela> will they want names of board members before we incorporate or can that be done afterwards?
[21:51] <enochlau> i think you need people beforehand...
[21:51] <cartman02au> generally they will want names of the first committee and a list of members
[21:52] <Angela> One thing we need soon then is membership forms.
[21:52] <cartman02au> yep or at least some process for becoming a member
[21:52] <enochlau> but it's confusing - what are we joining if it hasn't been formed yet?
[21:53] <enochlau> it seems like a paradox, we need members before registering, but before registering, there is nothing to join?!
[21:53] <Angela> I suppose you're pledging you will join once it exists.
[21:53] <cartman02au> there kind of is an informal organisation there
[21:53] <bainer> the association exists before it gets incorporated
[21:53] <bainer> it's just a regular association
[21:53] <Angela> we also need election procedures (the French IRC voting method worked very well. I was an election official for one of those)
[21:53] <cartman02au> at the moment we could be seen as an unincorporated association
[21:53] <Angela> And we need an agreement with the Foundation over logo use.
[21:53] <cartman02au> How did it work?
[21:53] * cartman02au giggles
[21:54] <cartman02au> do not start me on trademark agreements
[21:54] <Angela> Two election officials go in a channel, people register their nick and state on the wiki it's really them, then one at a time, they go in the channel and vote.
[21:54] <cartman02au> really cool :)
[21:55] <Angela> So, it's private except to the 2 independant officials, who aren't part of the chapter.
[21:55] <bainer> that's quite clever
[21:55] <cartman02au> extremely
[21:55] <cartman02au> the French chapter rocks
[21:55] <enochlau> speaking of the logo, what's happening with that?
[21:56] <enochlau> i noted that there was something about fonts on the meta page a while back
[21:56] <cartman02au> as long as we conform to the visual identity guidelines its generally ok, but we need to enter into a trademark agreement with the foundation
[21:56] <cartman02au> the second is the problem for the moment
[21:56] <bainer> enochlau: the font used is Gill Sans, someone who has that just needs to write "Wikimedia Australia" below the foundation logo
[21:56] <enochlau> i have that font - is that not standard on windows computers?
[21:56] <cartman02au> In the correct size
[21:56] <enochlau> or is just that you guys dont use windows? :)
[21:57] <Angela> I use windows, just not MS office usually.
[21:57] <cartman02au> I use windows 60%, MacOS X the rest of the time
[21:57] * cartman02au goes and cuddles his mac
[21:58] <enochlau> we had that green stylised australia, or was that just a joke?
[21:58] <cartman02au> I use office because I get it for free!
[21:58] <cartman02au> Ideally we need to conform to the rest of the foundation
[21:58] <Angela> yeah, they get pretty grumpy if you don't :)
[21:58] <cartman02au> Given that the trademarks are the only real assets it owns we need not to dilute them
[21:59] <Angela> We should also decide if we want to be called Wikimedia Australia, or have a separate name and trade as that.
[21:59] <Angela> like Wiki Educational Resources are only trading as Wikimedia UK.
[21:59] <Angela> The advantage is that if there are later trademark disputes between us and the Foundation, we can just drop the name rather than having to lose our incorporated status. It also makes it clear to people wanting to sue the Foundation that there's no point sueing us.
[21:59] <cartman02au> We send emails to people asking them to conform lol
[21:59] <enochlau> that's interesting
[21:59] <cartman02au> that is something that would need to be looked into in more detail
[22:00] <enochlau> are there any disadvantages with doing it like that?
[22:00] <cartman02au> also remember that WMUK isnt an official chapter as such
[22:00] <Angela> There's some dispute as to what is an official chapter, and actually, whether any of them are.
[22:00] <enochlau> legally, what is a "chapter"?
[22:00] <cartman02au> My view is that if there is an trademark agreement then they are official
[22:00] <cartman02au> I could be wrong
[22:01] <enochlau> (digging out law dictionary)
[22:01] <Angela> This is perhaps something for the chapters committee to talk about. we should assume there won't be any problem with us getting this agreement.
[22:01] <enochlau> (no such entry)
[22:01] <cartman02au> Wikimedia Chapter: local groups chartered to further the goals of the projects with a special regard for their local impact.
[22:02] <cartman02au> There wont be any problem with WMA getting an agreement when the issues and communication paths within the foundation are sorted
[22:02] <Angela> Perhaps we could have a discussion on the mailing list about what the official name should be. internally, people are going to call us Wikimedia Australia regardless.
[22:02] <cartman02au> Basically, from a WMA point of view - we send a request to the ChapCom
[22:02] <cartman02au> to get a trademark agreement
[22:03] <Angela> they want to see the bylaws before that though won't they?
[22:03] <cartman02au> this normally happens after incorporation, prior to incorporation we send all our founding documents off to ChapCom
[22:03] <cartman02au> ^^^
[22:03] <Angela> yes, so we should focus on finalising http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Australia#Draft_Documents this month
[22:04] <Angela> shall we move on with the agenda, to "Things to do with the financial year"?
[22:04] <cartman02au> agreed
[22:04] <cartman02au> what things?
[22:04] <Angela> the agenda just says "Raising money. What to do with money."
[22:05] <cartman02au> I guess where is the $$$ coming from, what are we going to spend it on
[22:05] <cartman02au> Did anyone here ever see Webster's CD-ROMs on Australian topics
[22:06] <jhawtin_> hi
[22:06] * jhawtin_ is now known as lucychili
[22:06] <enochlau> it has been a long time since i've touched a non-internet encycloedpia
[22:06] <lucychili> i missed the meet hey
[22:07] <Angela> hi lucychili. it's still going on :)
[22:07] <lucychili> ok =)
[22:07] <Angela> initially, the money will be from membership fees and spent on the legal fees for registration etc - maybe we could have a vote on-wiki about whether $40 (with reductions for concessions) seems reasonable?
[22:07] <cartman02au> I'd like to see us try and create some "offline" Australian educational resources
[22:07] <cartman02au> I think that could push Wikipedia into education
[22:08] <Angela> like wikireaders?
[22:08] <cartman02au> kind of
[22:08] <cartman02au> a little more extensive
[22:08] <cartman02au> Websters used to have an Australian encyclopedia, Australian birds, Australian mammals, etc
[22:08] <cartman02au> They were really cool :)
[22:08] <lucychili> youll need to pay for public liability insurance to have any events - im tripping over that with another organisation
[22:09] <Angela> The next point on the agenda was "Putting Wikimedia into schools for the start of the new semester" which fits in well with this idea, since it would be legally easier to put something smaller and edited into schools than the whole legally-problematic Wikipedia.
[22:09] <cartman02au> unless the venue has its own from memory
[22:09] <cartman02au> that's the idea
[22:09] <lucychili> most councils wont let you hire a room unless youre covered yourself
[22:09] <lucychili> well thats the case in sa
[22:10] <cartman02au> the other idea is that if the schools being to trust what we are producing offline they may be encouraged to look at 'pedia
[22:10] <cartman02au> thats the case in most places, universities, schools and some clubs are different though
[22:10] <bainer> so something like a selection of important Australian articles?
[22:10] <cartman02au> I think so yes
[22:10] <Angela> perhaps the education committee could look into the offline resources idea - please add your name at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Australia/Committees if you're interested in being part of that
[22:10] <bainer> there's a decent amount of material at the Australian Portal
[22:11] <enochlau> there would need to be a compelling reason why someone would want to buy somthing they can get for free
[22:11] <Angela> Something like that would also be useful in fundraising if we could sell print copies of it.
[22:11] <cartman02au> exactly, when was the last time you saw a decent australian encyclopedia on cd/dvd
[22:11] <lucychili> making it specifically relevant to a school is one idea
[22:11] <lucychili> eg like a yearbook
[22:11] <cartman02au> enoch: it works in germany
[22:11] <bainer> enochlau: I think the idea is that we could give it to schools
[22:11] <lucychili> or a portfolio for a drama class
[22:11] <cartman02au> enoch: it will worik in poland
[22:11] <cartman02au> I would probably give it to schools and maybe charge a modest fee for it
[22:11] <Angela> Pfctdayelise also suggested using Australian images as rewards for donors during fundraising - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Australian_Wikipedians%27_notice_board#Australia-related_FPs
[22:11] <cartman02au> for everyone else
[22:12] <enochlau> i can see that it will work, but if there is such pessimism in DET about the online stuff, is tehre any reason they would see the offline stuff any differently?
[22:12] <enochlau> it's still not written by so-called "experts"
[22:12] <cartman02au> it would be checked
[22:12] <lucychili> teachers like things that students do
[22:12] <cartman02au> the problem in DET is that anyone can edit it
[22:13] <cartman02au> and the fact it's uncensored
[22:13] <lucychili> make it content that students deliver via wiki as a medium then there is no expert issue
[22:13] <Angela> Promoting the idea that wikis (including private ones) can be useful in the classroom might help them stop feeling so scared about it.
[22:13] <bainer> we should also be looking at getting wiki software into schools along with the content, and getting information to the teachers too - they're going to be the important ones
[22:13] <cartman02au> Where I work has their own internal wiki (on modified code) actually
[22:14] <enochlau> hmm perhaps even an internal staff wiki would be useful
[22:14] <Angela> the blog at http://weblogg-ed.com/ often has suggestions for using wikis in education, so this is something we could try to get across to these schools. if they become familiar with wikis as a tool, they're more likely to look at Wikipedia rather than dismissing it on the basis of some negative news reports
[22:14] <cartman02au> Wikis work great with interactive whiteboards which NSW schools are pushing at the moment
[22:15] <cartman02au> 'pedia looks great on a huge screen
[22:16] <cartman02au> I am trying to con the principal at work to let me do some professional development with teachers and wikis
[22:17] <lucychili> is it realistic to have a wiki site which is eventually burned to cd as a finished product that they can take away as a resume type of thing, prrof of project? do they work ok as a burned product?
[22:17] <cartman02au> I am unsire of that
[22:17] <cartman02au> *unsurw
[22:17] * enochlau is testing this out
[22:17] <lucychili> ok
[22:17] <cartman02au> I know the german chapter has a company produce the german wikipedia on dvd for them
[22:18] <cartman02au> Poland is in the process of it
[22:18] <lucychili> nice
[22:18] <enochlau> there are tools out there that will convert wiki markup into just about any format you like
[22:18] <enochlau> they arent integrated into mediawiki tho
[22:18] <lucychili> even getting some copies of those for gernan language students etc might be nifty?
[22:18] <Angela> Working with a pulisher (especially one willing to take the liability for it) makes things a lot easier.
[22:18] <cartman02au> I might have to begin looking into that
[22:18] <cartman02au> it sure does
[22:19] <bainer> DE got Directmedia for their DVD release
[22:19] <cartman02au> yep, Poland is in the process of getting theirs off the ground i believe
[22:19] <enochlau> how much of the stuff on wikipedia can we dump onto dvd right now?
[22:19] <enochlau> would we need a lot of work to bring it up to scratch?
[22:20] <Angela> You'd need to check everything for copyright violations.
[22:20] <cartman02au> I dont know, because I font even know how it would be done LOL
[22:20] <lucychili> What about getting schools to work on the section of the site which is their local area
[22:20] <enochlau> just looking at the case law material on wikipedia, it's growing quite nicely =) stuff law students like
[22:20] <cartman02au> I should do law actually
[22:20] <cartman02au> at least it has no exams :)
[22:21] <enochlau> no exams?
[22:21] <bainer> I have a three hour exam on Friday
[22:21] <cartman02au> not at postgrad level at ANU, CSU, Monash
[22:21] <bainer> don't tell me there's no exams
[22:21] <enochlau> i have a 3 hour exam the following friday
[22:21] <cartman02au> or unimelb
[22:21] <cartman02au> I looked into it only 2 weeks ago, none of those have exams for postgrad law coursews
[22:21] <cartman02au> *courses
[22:22] <cartman02au> unfortunately none have mid-year intake either
[22:22] <enochlau> cartman02au: are you sure they are LLB? or masters? if it's stuff after bachelors, it's quite reasoanble that there wont be exams
[22:22] <cartman02au> it came down to law, jouranlism or adult education - given that I am sort of employed in the third
[22:22] <cartman02au> it's postgrad so either masters or graddip
[22:22] <enochlau> lucychili: getting students to write for wikipedia is always a risk, may or may not work
[22:23] <lucychili> true
[22:23] <lucychili> but it makes the teachers the experts which might get them accidentally onside
[22:24] <enochlau> i remember some afd discussion a while back about a class that added stuff to wikipedia
[22:24] <enochlau> it was horrible to integrate with the rest of the encyclopedia, from memory
[22:24] <lucychili> i see
[22:24] <lucychili> so it would need to be done as a workshop with folks from wm team facilitating markup or something
[22:25] <lucychili> or done on a beta server and good stuff ported across
[22:25] <lucychili> schools server
[22:25] <lucychili> m
[22:25] <bainer> a wiki would be good for a class research project - that would be a good first step to get people familiar with wikis in general before shuffling them into Wikimedia
[22:25] <enochlau> yes it would have to be done locally, and migrated in a controlled manner
[22:25] <bainer> a schools server run by us is a good idea
[22:25] <cartman02au> try getting teachers to use something new
[22:25] <lucychili> yep
[22:25] <cartman02au> i agree
[22:25] <enochlau> or at least for groupwork
[22:26] <cartman02au> teachers require a lot of training to do new tasks
[22:26] <lucychili> most people with a lot on their plate do
[22:26] <bainer> talk to IT teachers first
[22:26] <cartman02au> true
[22:27] <lucychili> making a wiki a forum for a creative writing project might be ok?
[22:27] <cartman02au> what pisses me off (excuse the language) is that google video is acceptable to the DET, but wikipedia isnt
[22:27] <enochlau> hilarious
[22:27] <enochlau> but then again, google video is filtered by google staff isnt it?
[22:27] <enochlau> it's not like youtube
[22:28] <BrianNewZealand> hi werdna
[22:28] <Werdna> hi BrianNewZealand.
[22:28] <cartman02au> i dont think it is that filtered, I am not too sure
[22:28] <cartman02au> youtube is ok too LOL
[22:29] <lucychili> are you all eastern states folks? any sa?
[22:29] <cartman02au> I remember walking into a big argument last week about a child opening up a movie with a person eaten by a shark in the middle of class on the whiteboard
[22:29] <cartman02au> did not go down well - google video to the rescue lol
[22:29] <enochlau> how do you get video onto the whiteboard? they're electronic? or was this a projector
[22:30] <cartman02au> interactive whiteboards
[22:31] <cartman02au> they have a front mounted projector (can be rear but they cost $17500) and you can walk up and touch them like a touch screen
[22:31] <BrianNewZealand> They are just starting to come in to public schools here
[22:31] <enochlau> oh wow, that's so cool
[22:31] <cartman02au> it is
[22:32] <cartman02au> they are a cow of a thing to install, especially in demountables
[22:32] <bainer> because who needs to pay for things like teachers
[22:32] <Angela> maybe we should move on to the next agenda point and leave this to a later discussion by the education committee - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Australia/Committees
[22:32] <Angela> The next thing is"Appropriate media placements" but I don't actually know what that means.
[22:32] <cartman02au> 'pedia looks great on them
[22:32] <cartman02au> neither do i lol
[22:32] <bainer> publicity I think
[22:32] <enochlau> infiltrating news corporation with wikimedia spies?
[22:32] <enochlau> dunno
[22:32] <enochlau> haha
[22:33] <Angela> We need more press, but I don't know what there is to discuss about that.
[22:33] <cartman02au> I think part of that is required in the setup
[22:33] <enochlau> or was that meant to mean we should take out ads in the media?
[22:33] <cartman02au> We need to exist to publicise stuff, we need to build relationships with the media
[22:33] <enochlau> when we start up, should we advertise in any way to bring in members?
[22:33] <Angela> Only on the projects, I think.
[22:33] <cartman02au> I think we can do that without the media
[22:33] <cartman02au> again, build relationships with other organisations
[22:34] <lucychili> perhaps in teachers journals, wm a tool for collaborative writing and research talk to ... for support and training workshop
[22:34] * Werdna should have been looking in this channel.
[22:34] <Werdna> hi, Angela.
[22:34] <cartman02au> I especially like the idea of working with U3A
[22:34] <Angela> Hi Werdna.
[22:34] <bainer> we can do things like getting TimStarling to talk to some technology writers
[22:34] * Werdna would read the above discussion, but has tired eyes from 6 hours of coding.
[22:35] <Angela> Yes, and since he's not paying attention, he can't object to that idea.
[22:35] <cartman02au> Werdna: It will be posted online anyways
[22:35] <bainer> there must be some tech types out there who are interested in how on earth Wikimedia keeps running
[22:35] <Werdna> there's a meeting now?
[22:35] <cartman02au> I am LOL
[22:35] <Werdna> i guess there must be. THis is the most active I've *ever* seent his channel./
[22:36] <Angela> the next agenda point is "Looking for grants one or two" but it seems a bit premature to be looking for those before we incorporate. perhaps for now we could just list ideas of who we might approach for grants at a later stage (we also need to work out what we want grants for)
[22:36] <Werdna> yeah, what are we going to *do*
[22:36] <enochlau> does the federal DEST dish out money gratuitously to people like us?
[22:36] <cartman02au> we need to know what we want grants for to apply for them anyway
[22:37] <Werdna> what cartman02au said.
[22:37] <Angela> perhaps discuss it at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Australia or on the mailing list?
[22:37] <enochlau> we should also look at grants that aren't attached to particular projects - perhaps there are schemes for helping out community groups/education groups per se
[22:37] <lucychili> think of the wiki as a tool and apply if for purposes that attract funding eg creative writing for arts, local history for history trusts, coordinating local business for reginonal devt or something
[22:37] <cartman02au> agreed
[22:38] <Angela> the next thing is that Bronwyn wanted to know "Who will go on the Churchill Fellowship for 2007?" I guess from the lack of responses at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Australia#Churchill_Fellowship:_February_2007 no one is both interested and able to go?
[22:38] <cartman02au> what's next?
[22:39] <cartman02au> I am interested but unable to go
[22:39] <cartman02au> I think it would be nice for someone to get a feel for Wikimedia globally
[22:39] <Angela> I'm not eligible since I'm not Australian.
[22:39] <enochlau> angela already has i think =)
[22:40] <Werdna> bahaha
[22:40] <cartman02au> true lol
[22:40] <Werdna> why are you in aus then?
[22:40] <lucychili> im available and up for it but new to the community
[22:40] <cartman02au> some new blood :)
[22:40] <Angela> Werdna: because of TimStarling.
[22:40] <lucychili> =)
[22:40] <Werdna> Angela, TimStarling?
[22:40] <Werdna> I know he lives in melbourne
[22:40] <enochlau> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Angela
[22:40] <Werdna> but what's that got to do with you?
[22:41] <Angela> read the page enochlau linked to :)
[22:41] <Werdna> ah.
[22:41] <cartman02au> Wiki love :)
[22:41] <Werdna> I'm trying to figure out who you look like :P
[22:42] <cartman02au> I have been for months but gave up
[22:42] <enochlau> why do you need to figure out what she looks like? there's a photo
[22:42] <Angela> I came to first Melbourne Wikipedia meetup and ended up staying :)
[22:42] <enochlau> :P
[22:42] <cartman02au> nah who
[22:42] <Werdna> enochlau, WHO she looks like.
[22:43] <Werdna> Angela, is there a sydney meetup coming up?
[22:43] <cartman02au> she looks like someone and I am stuffed if I can remember
[22:43] <enochlau> there was meant to be one in may
[22:43] <enochlau> didn't materialise
[22:43] <enochlau> probably because Ta bu shi da yu recently married
[22:43] <enochlau> so the BBQ at his place was a little out of the question
[22:43] <Angela> Werdna: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Sydney#Future_meetings
[22:44] <Angela> the next thing on the agenda isn't really an agenda point - "A little Wikimedia for Australia - piggybacking on Linux User Groups" unless anyone has any comments on that...
[22:44] <cartman02au> nope
[22:44] <cartman02au> that's the last one too isnt it?
[22:44] * cartman02au yawns
[22:44] <enochlau> werdna: if you're in sydney, please feel free to add your name somewhere there so we know that you're interested
[22:44] * enochlau would like to yawn, but is drinking stuff with caffiene
[22:45] <cartman02au> I cant drink caffiene lol
[22:45] <Werdna> enochlau, where?
[22:45] <enochlau> werdna: under the participants header
[22:45] <jasabella> hi
[22:45] <enochlau> hello =)
[22:45] <cartman02au> greetings
[22:45] <BrianNewZealand> Hi Jas :)
[22:45] <Werdna> ah, I see.
[22:45] <Werdna> hi jasabella, you're aussie?
[22:45] <jasabella> i'm late!
[22:46] <enochlau> werdna: also consider registering yourself in the category for sydney ppl too
[22:46] <jasabella> i'm in sydney, yes
[22:46] <cartman02au> is there anything else we need to discuss?
[22:46] <bainer> enochlau: that's quite funny actually, now TBSDY's married he can't do crazy things in his bachelor pad like meetups with other internet geeks
[22:46] * cartman02au cuddles jasabella - another newsie!
[22:46] <lucychili> Angela what does that mean - doing wikimedia talks at lugs?
[22:46] <Werdna> that page is out of date.
[22:46] * jasabella *huggles* :)
[22:46] <Angela> Lucychili: I'm not sure. I didn't add it.
[22:47] <jasabella> i thought he was only engaged?
[22:47] <Werdna> it puts May 2006 as a future meetup, but I don't know enough about it to update.
[22:47] * cartman02au is excited now, he felt alone as a newsie in WMA :P
[22:47] <Angela> the next thing was "Maybe we can go to the New Zealand wikimeet?" This 25 June, but I don't know if there's anything to discuss since it's not something the chapter can fund yet, so it's up to individuals if they want to go. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Auckland for details
[22:47] <jasabella> it's june 2006 already
[22:47] <enochlau> yarr, we could probably meet in july
[22:47] <enochlau> after all the uni exams
[22:47] <cartman02au> It would be great if someone could go, but I doubt it is possivle
[22:47] <lucychili> would be great to hear about what happens at the meet
[22:47] <cartman02au> *possible
[22:48] <jasabella> i'll be busy if meetup is on work day :(
[22:48] <cartman02au> I want to see WMA and WMNZ work closely
[22:48] <Angela> Yes, me too.
[22:48] * Werdna is broke after breaking his phone and spending $250 sending it to Houston, Texas to fix it.
[22:48] <Angela> But it's very expensive to be there in person.
[22:48] * bainer wonders if WMNZ should be a sub-chapter of WMA
[22:48] <enochlau> lol
[22:48] <lucychili> yep the linuxau conf in newzealand was great - was nice to do something nz and au flavoured
[22:48] <BrianNewZealand> The main topic of the meetup is about a possable WMNZ
[22:48] <jasabella> haha NZ: the 7th state
[22:48] <enochlau> the nz bashing starts now...
[22:49] <lucychili> try partners instead
[22:49] <Angela> BrianNewZealand: how many people are you expecting there?
[22:49] <BrianNewZealand> about 12
[22:49] <enochlau> that's quite impressive
[22:50] <BrianNewZealand> we have booked a centre that caters for 20, well a pub :)
[22:50] <Werdna> out of interest, where in sydney was the last meetup?
[22:50] <enochlau> CBD!
[22:51] <enochlau> we had lunch in chinatown, then we went to darling harbour to finish off chatting
[22:51] <Werdna> and that was late may?
[22:51] * jasabella is sick of chinese food :P
[22:51] <enochlau> 5 february 2006
[22:51] <Angela> The final agenda point is "What can we do now?" since not everything has to wait until we're officially incorporated.
[22:51] <Angela> I suggested on the meeting page that we could be trying to get press attention for Wikimedia projects in Australia and one idea I added from pfctdayelise was offering Australian images for donors during the fundraising drive. Are there any ideas?
[22:51] <Werdna> oh, I thought there was supposed to be one in may?
[22:51] <enochlau> it didnt happen
[22:51] <Werdna> Angela, that sounds good.
[22:52] <Werdna> enochlau, well put me down as interested, assuming I can convince my parents.
[22:52] <enochlau> what do you mean by austalian images?
[22:52] <enochlau> sending them postcards or something?
[22:52] <enochlau> werdna: you've put yourself down on that meetup page, so it should be ok =)
[22:52] <Werdna> enochlau, okay.
[22:52] <Werdna> is there anything planned?
[22:53] <Angela> enochlau: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Australian_Wikipedians%27_notice_board#Australia-related_FPs
[22:53] <Angela> Just gathering them up and offering them to people by email or something I think.
[22:53] <enochlau> oooh wallpaper pack
[22:53] <enochlau> i love wikipedia pictures as wallpaper
[22:53] <cartman02au> I really need to check the notice board more
[22:53] <cartman02au> I just never get time for pedia these days
[22:53] <lucychili> Is there some way we should flag that we are part of wikimedia-au when doing small local wikis to help get the wider org known?
[22:53] <cartman02au> Plus I am trying to win IWWC2 LOL
[22:54] <enochlau> perhaps everyone could link to the meta page from their user pages for a start
[22:54] <enochlau> cartman02au: the noticeboard is useful, but there's just too much stuff that doesnt interest me so i stopped reading it =)
[22:54] <cartman02au> LOL
[22:55] * Werdna watchlists a number of pages.
[22:55] <cartman02au> well guys, Im going to head off, I look forward to seeing you all again soon :)
[22:55] <BrianNewZealand> 1am here, I'm off as well
[22:55] <enochlau> nice hearing from you again
[22:55] <enochlau> bye
[22:55] <lucychili> ouch brian cya
[22:55] <bainer> see you later guys
[22:55] <enochlau> pfft, 1am is nothing
[22:56] * cartman02au is a bit disappointed Brianna isnt here :)
[22:56] <cartman02au> nice hearing from everyone again and nice to see some new faces
[22:56] <BrianNewZealand> Got to go to Auckland at 5am (5 hr drive from were i am) :)
[22:56] <enochlau> that's not gonna work
[22:56] <enochlau> :P
[22:56] <cartman02au> go to sleep you bugger lol
[22:56] <cartman02au> nite all
[22:57] <enochlau> then he'll have even less time to get to auckland
[22:57] <enochlau> anyway i should go, and do some of this stuff called study
[22:57] <enochlau> cya
[22:57] <bainer> bye
[22:57] <enochlau> note to whoever is posting up logs: delete my failed message to nickserv, and forgot you ever saw it
[22:57] <enochlau> cheers
[22:57] <Angela> I'll post the log.
[22:58] <Angela> should we have the next meeting in about a month from now?
[22:58] <BrianNewZealand> sounds good
[22:58] <bainer> that sounds about right
[22:59] <lucychili> yep
[22:59] <lucychili> thanks for the meeting
[23:00] <Angela> thanks everyone for coming :)