Wikimedia meetings/2011-06-04

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[11:28pm] PeterSymonds: So who's in charge here.
[11:28pm] phoebe_wiki: well
[11:28pm] Beria: topic war!!
[11:28pm] Theo10011: aren't you?
[11:28pm] Theo10011: hi chica
[11:28pm] phoebe_wiki: that, my friend, is a point of long debate
[11:28pm] PeterSymonds: Apart from me.
[11:28pm] Beria: hi my dear
[11:29pm] phoebe_wiki: but I called the meeting, and I am happy to mod if Mono's not here
[11:29pm] effeietsanders: ola beria
[11:29pm] Beria: hi my dear [2]
[11:29pm] PeterSymonds: Okay, well, I'm not really happy about Mono having the power to kick in here, so phoebe it is.
[11:29pm] phoebe_wiki: but: I want some help with the IRC part, if we want anyone to be voiced or devoiced or whatever
[11:29pm] phoebe_wiki was promoted to operator by ChanServ.
[11:29pm] phoebe_wiki: any volunteers?
[11:29pm] Theo10011: Beria: oh my 2 dears?
[11:30pm] Theo10011: phoebe_wiki: you've already got several ops here already.
[11:30pm] DeltaQuad: volunteers for what?
[11:30pm] Beria: phoebe_wiki, /msg ChanServ op #wikimedia <Nick>
[11:30pm] phoebe_wiki: Theo: It's hard to use ops and actively facilitate at the same time, I've found
[11:30pm] effeietsanders: was there an agenda page btw?
[11:30pm] phoebe_wiki: there was: it's here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_meetings#June_4.2C_2011
[11:31pm] phoebe_wiki: add to it, pls
[11:31pm] phoebe_wiki: or modify
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[11:31pm] phoebe_wiki: OK, here's what's going on
[11:31pm] phoebe_wiki: a few months ago I proposed having open community meetings
[11:31pm] phoebe_wiki: roughly once a month
[11:32pm] phoebe_wiki: so that we could have a forum to bring up ideas and issues to each other
[11:32pm] phoebe_wiki: not explicitly focused on WMF staff, like the office hours meeting
[11:32pm] phoebe_wiki: and with occasional board participation
[11:32pm] phoebe_wiki: so we had one in February; then a break of a few months
[11:32pm] geniice: za
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[11:32pm] phoebe_wiki: I proposed a time that was good for Asia, but no one came; and then we skipped a couple months because no one proposed a time
[11:33pm] effeietsanders: phoebe_wiki: would it maybe make sense to start with a short introduction of "the state of the board"? Would be interesting What stuff are you working on nowadays
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[11:33pm] Theo10011: That reminds me, I should inform other channels to attend.
[11:33pm] phoebe_wiki: hi wing2
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[11:33pm] wing2: Hello everyone, sorry I am late
[11:33pm] phoebe_wiki: effietsandsers: sure, if you like; did you put it on the agenda?
[11:33pm] Beria: go spam Theo10011
[11:33pm] effeietsanders: not yet
[11:34pm] phoebe_wiki: OK, I added an item: someone from the elections committee asked me for ideas about publicizing the board election
[11:34pm] phoebe_wiki: they've had pretty low turnout
[11:34pm] ChristineM: Doh! i keep forgetting to vote. *goes to do so*
[11:34pm] phoebe_wiki: there you go
[11:34pm] wing2: even lower as the last two years?
[11:35pm] phoebe_wiki: so far, but we still have a week and a half
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[11:35pm] phoebe_wiki: so let's quickly brainstorm about that, then the state of the board
[11:35pm] wing2: Yes
[11:35pm] Nemo_bis: perhaps everybody is reading all Q&A and so on
[11:35pm] phoebe_wiki: then maybe new editor outreach: a general topic
[11:35pm] Nemo_bis: so many candidates
[11:35pm] phoebe_wiki: then whatever anyone else wants to talk about
[11:35pm] Ironholds: Nemo_bis: that's the ideal
[11:36pm] effeietsanders: (added)
[11:36pm] • apergos lurks
[11:37pm] phoebe_wiki: ideal indeed. what keeps people from voting, do you think?
[11:37pm] effeietsanders: well, the complicated interface
[11:37pm] effeietsanders: for one
[11:37pm] phoebe_wiki: just the amount of reading, or b/c people don't know what the board does, or?
[11:38pm] effeietsanders: i heard several people complain
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[11:38pm] phoebe_wiki: effe: the voting interface itself?
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[11:38pm] effeietsanders: both that and that they have to order everything
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[11:38pm] effeietsanders: but you should be able to test that assumption
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[11:38pm] Nemo_bis: effeietsanders, is it mandatory this year?
[11:38pm] effeietsanders: by measuring the number of visitors
[11:38pm] Ironholds: effeietsanders: you don't have to order everything
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[11:39pm] effeietsanders: Ironholds: I know and you know
[11:39pm] Theo10011: StevenW
[11:39pm] Theo10011: hoi
[11:39pm] StevenW: hey
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[11:39pm] Nemo_bis: some frank discussion about the board and the candidates is needed
[11:39pm] phoebe_wiki: I don't think ordering is mandatory
[11:40pm] phoebe_wiki: so outreach ideas?
[11:40pm] phoebe_wiki: I suggested watchlist notices, etc
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[11:40pm] Theo10011: Guest70461: it's phoebe's open community party, stop lurking.
[11:40pm] phoebe_wiki: nemo_bis, sure; effe asked for a "state of teh board" discussion after this
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[11:41pm] Nemo_bis: both in public and private places; for instance there are some threads in WM-IT private lists (although there are still not that many messages)
[11:41pm] apergos: some frank disscussion about the board and how much/whether they matter, both to the community and to wmf staff, might be good
[11:41pm] Nemo_bis: (still more than on foundation-l, though)
[11:41pm] phoebe_wiki: apergos: where's the best place to do that?
[11:41pm] phoebe_wiki: yeah, why no threads on foundation-l? this is totally puzzling to me
[11:41pm] phoebe_wiki: and unlike past years
[11:42pm] phoebe_wiki: thoughts?
[11:42pm] apergos: that is a tough call. the people likely to be interested are already on the mailing lists
[11:42pm] Ironholds: wrong
[11:42pm] apergos: (although some of them may not be convinced that candidates matter either)
[11:43pm] apergos: but the rest don't know and have no idea why they should care. (should they? )
[11:43pm] Ironholds: the people likely to be interested who can be arsed to eff around with mailing lists, an outdated and crummy format which bombards you with a thousand messages...are already on the mailing lists
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[11:43pm] geniice: I'm not aware of a vast amount of disscussion of the candidates anywhere
[11:43pm] apergos: ah, sorry, I meant "already motivated to go vote etc."
[11:43pm] apergos: so it's no point going to the lists with it
[11:43pm] phoebe_wiki: geniice: me either
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[11:44pm] Ironholds: apergos: ah, gotcha. point.
[11:44pm] apergos: irc channels see only a small number of users compared to the whole
[11:44pm] apergos: so on-wiki it is...
[11:44pm] Theo10011: Ironholds: stop knocking the mailing lists.
[11:44pm] Theo10011: That's where the most governance related stuff happens.
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[11:44pm] effeietsanders: my guess would be that discussion on foundation-l will only increase for a small portion
[11:45pm] effeietsanders: low discussion there is not the cause but an effect
[11:45pm] effeietsanders: (the subscriptees probably have voted already mainly)
[11:45pm] phoebe_wiki: (let's give this topic 5 minutes, then wing & I will attempt to address the "state of the board" item)
[11:46pm] Theo10011: there has been an awful lot of activity on Meta related to the Board elections.
[11:46pm] effeietsanders: will email reminders be sent around?
[11:46pm] apergos: do you know how long it took me to learn there was such a thiing as meta and that I should look at it sometimes?
[11:46pm] apergos: a looong time
[11:47pm] effeietsanders: Theo10011: the problem is, that that activity happens by a small group
[11:47pm] Theo10011: heh it was one of the first wikis I came across.
[11:47pm] apergos: if we want to engage people it's going to need to be in their village pumps or whatever
[11:47pm] effeietsanders: after all, there have been some 900 votes already
[11:47pm] apergos: which really means findind a liason from each active community (ouch)
[11:47pm] Theo10011: effe: at least the most, if not all the candidates are involved.
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[11:47pm] effeietsanders: if you're looking for a cause... i would search for it in the sitenotice
[11:48pm] effeietsanders: two years ago, a site notice was special
[11:48pm] effeietsanders: and likely to be noticed
[11:48pm] phoebe_wiki: we've sent emails before, right? to the qualified voters?
[11:48pm] effeietsanders: nowadays we have many of them, usually with images in it
[11:48pm] apergos: now everybody and his brother has one
[11:48pm] phoebe_wiki: I'd forgotten about that
[11:48pm] apergos: hmm emails... that's possible
[11:48pm] effeietsanders: and this is a sitenotice without image
[11:48pm] effeietsanders: so it doesnt attract attention
[11:48pm] apergos: that's a looot of emails but yeah sure
[11:48pm] apergos: mmm there's the language issue
[11:48pm] apergos: *sigh*
[11:49pm] • effeietsanders thinks gregory maxwell knows how to send those
[11:49pm] geniice: It's ultimately a mix of democracy fatigue and a lack of obvious issues
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[11:49pm] effeietsanders: democracy fatigue?
[11:49pm] effeietsanders: not sure about that
[11:49pm] geniice: and no I'm not suggesting we ask the candidates if they would support a siteban of poetlister
[11:50pm] phoebe_wiki: geniice: lol
[11:50pm] effeietsanders: is there a coordinator around?
[11:50pm] apergos: well to be frank (since we are), I wonder whether board membership really matters much to the way the projects run
[11:50pm] apergos: or the way the foundation runs, either one
[11:50pm] • effeietsanders is wondering if we have visitor stats of the voting pages
[11:50pm] geniice: effeietsanders voting for people outside your monkeysphere requires effort
[11:50pm] geniice: apergos it could
[11:50pm] phoebe_wiki: effietsanders: not sure. But I can pass the email idea and others along to JHS
[11:50pm] geniice: apergos while the board at the moment is pretty hands off it doesn't have to be
[11:50pm] Ironholds: geniice: so, basically, what we need to be saying is "phoebe_wiki, please ensure the board fucks things up dramatically so that people have some incentive to campaign and vote"?
[11:51pm] phoebe_wiki: apergos: sure, that's a fair question. I think it does matter to how the foundation runs, but not the projects necessarily
[11:51pm] geniice: Ironholds no
[11:51pm] effeietsanders: geniice: good point, the board is indeed more distant nowadays
[11:51pm] phoebe_wiki: on the other hand: it *could*
[11:51pm] phoebe_wiki: and there's the rub
[11:51pm] geniice: Ironholds more like something gets fucked up in a way that needs board action to fix
[11:51pm] Ironholds: point
[11:51pm] apergos: I was hoping they might do dramatically fabulous things
[11:52pm] phoebe_wiki: indeed! I am soliciting ideas for how to be dramatically fabulous
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[11:52pm] effeietsanders: Ironholds: ideally one candidate fucks up and another does great
[11:52pm] effeietsanders:
[11:52pm] geniice: for example if people actualy started settling crosswiki disputes with howitzer duels
[11:52pm] apergos:
[11:52pm] phoebe_wiki: I'm serious. There's a tension often between being hands-off and wanting to improve things; and what is appropriate for the board to get involved in
[11:52pm] Ironholds: glitter and unicorns; always a good one
[11:52pm] Ironholds: that tends to be fabulous
[11:53pm] phoebe_wiki: perhaps this is a good time for the board update?
[11:53pm] apergos: the board can always propose, and if the community tells em to go take a hike they don't do it
[11:53pm] geniice: phoebe_wiki killing wikiveristy would be a favorite
[11:53pm] phoebe_wiki: any further ideas about elections?
[11:53pm] effeietsanders: phoebe_wiki: sounds like a great idea
[11:53pm] apergos: geniice: don't you dare
[11:53pm] effeietsanders:
[11:53pm] Ironholds: phoebe_wiki: Tension doesn't suprise me. However, since we never see internal tension, we never really have a reason to pay attention to it
[11:53pm] phoebe_wiki: OK,
[11:53pm] Theo10011: There has been an expectation from the board to shake things up a bit, be a bit more decisive.
[11:53pm] Ironholds: geniice: good idea. That'd get all of en-wiki
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[11:54pm] phoebe_wiki: OK. So effe asked for a "state of the board" update, which Wing2 & I can provide
[11:54pm] phoebe_wiki: (on short notice, so bear with us)
[11:54pm] phoebe_wiki: Wing2, do you want to start, or shall I ?
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[11:54pm] wing2: You did the major work in the past weeks, so please start with your workgroup
[11:54pm] phoebe_wiki: sure. so you saw we published the controversial content resolutions
[11:55pm] Welles: url for those?
[11:55pm] phoebe_wiki: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolutions the first two
[11:55pm] wing2: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Controversial_content
[11:55pm] wing2: and
[11:55pm] wing2: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Images_of_identifiable_people
[11:56pm] phoebe_wiki: I said all this in my letter, but it took a long time -- starting from last year we commissioned a report, talked about it, did a lot of research & thinking, and voted on the resolutions
[11:56pm] geniice: ah the Resolution:Controversial_content. have these people never met adblock+
[11:56pm] phoebe_wiki: incidentally, I found the process interesting --
[11:56pm] phoebe_wiki: as I said at one point, it takes three weeks min to pass a resolution
[11:57pm] phoebe_wiki: and probably longer than that, if it's something tricky (you all know how long on-wiki drafting of policy etc takes)
[11:57pm] phoebe_wiki: and I am proud of the board, for coming to consensus; I think there's important ideas here (but we still respected essential principles)
[11:57pm] wing2: Phoebe led the workgroup and formulated the main idea and text of the resolutions, thank you very much for the hard work.
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[11:58pm] phoebe_wiki: thanks! so that took a fair amount of my time.
[11:58pm] wing2: When we started this all last year I didn't imagine that we can get a result now already
[11:58pm] phoebe_wiki: but we've also had some other serious discussions... maybe wing can talk about those then questions
[11:58pm] wing2: Yes, one of them was the board visitor discussion
[11:58pm] phoebe_wiki: (see http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Board_visitors)
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[11:59pm] wing2: Maybe some of you know that the board had decided to start an experiment on allow a board visitor to take part in the board meetings
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[11:59pm] wing2: The idea is to improve transparency to our major institutional donors and contributors
[12:00am] wing2: There were some discussion inside of the board about this since this is very new for us and we don't know how it would work out
[12:00am] wing2: and if it would affect our work and how we talk to each other on the meetings
[12:00am] geniice: major institutional donors plural?
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[12:01am] geniice: or just the one that people are already worried about?
[12:01am] phoebe_wiki: geniice, not sure what you mean
[12:01am] phoebe_wiki: but major donors plural
[12:01am] geniice: which ones?
[12:02am] wing2: As the resolution stated, we will not have two observers at the same time
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[12:02am] wing2: Our first observer will probably someone from the Sloan Foundation
[12:03am] phoebe_wiki: you'll notice the resolution is stated in general terms: that's intentional. We thought it was important to come up with a good process for this for the future, not just consider it if someone happens to ask.
[12:03am] wing2: since they donated to us three million dollars in the past and will do so again
[12:03am] effeietsanders: wing2: a titre personnel or is the Sloan Foundation the observer?
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[12:03am] wing2: It will be a representative from the institution
[12:03am] wing2: not a private person
[12:04am] wing2: As far as I understand that person acts in behalf of the organization
[12:04am] wing2: At the moment we have no further candidates
[12:04am] wing2: He or she will visite our autumn meeting in October, this is the current plan
[12:05am] Theo10011: I would really like more clarification on this somewhere on-wiki.
[12:05am] phoebe_wiki: also notice it's experimental. If we try it and it doesn't go well, that's the end of it. We've got a year to evaluate. This resolution is pretty technical and detailed, compared to many, as it deals with board procedure and in this case the process is important.
[12:05am] Theo10011: There have been some concerns that this might translate into buying a visitor position.
[12:06am] wing2: Theo10011, I will respond to this
[12:06am] wing2: We are not selling anything
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[12:06am] wing2: Let's say you are the leader of a Foundation and gives another organization a lot of money, you want to be sure that they are trustworthy and efficient and doing a good work
[12:06am] wing2: This is the basic idea of an observer
[12:07am] Theo10011: wing2: I'm thinking about his resolution down the line.
[12:07am] effeietsanders: Theo10011: what would they "get" with this position?
[12:07am] Theo10011: Let's say for the sake of argument, a politically-motivated group made that donation.
[12:07am] wing2: The observer just observes so that he or she can assess if the money you donated are a good decision
[12:07am] effeietsanders: I mean, would they donate just because of the position?
[12:07am] wing2: effe, transparency
[12:07am] phoebe_wiki: btw, in case it wasn't clear: the visitor is of course non-voting; and also not on the board email list, and also they can only attend one meeting. We kept it pretty limited because of debate over just these concerns.
[12:07am] Theo10011: and requested an observer position.
[12:08am] wing2: effe, no, maybe their impression will lead to the decision about if they will also donate in the future
[12:08am] Theo10011: Thanks phoebe_wiki: this is the sort of clarification we want.
[12:08am] phoebe_wiki: it's all in the resolution
[12:08am] phoebe_wiki: like I said, this one is pretty detailed.
[12:08am] Welles: what is the downside to making the board meetings generally transparent to everyone, except for limited closed session for personnel and other privacy-intensive matters? Allowing access only for those who pays the most seems starkly anti-egalitarian
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[12:09am] wing2: welles because such meetings will be awkwardly ineffective
[12:09am] phoebe_wiki: welles, we did debate it
[12:09am] Welles: is there any evidence for that?
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[12:09am] James_F: Is the community meeting still going on?
[12:09am] phoebe_wiki: yep!
[12:10am] phoebe_wiki: we are in the middle of a "state of the board" update
[12:10am] geniice: yes we've entered the paranoid stage
[12:10am] James_F: Ah, cool.
[12:10am] phoebe_wiki: we should probably move on, b/c we've done other things this spring too
[12:10am] wing2: yes, I believe during the discussion a few trustees accounted similar experiences that went utterly ill
[12:10am] phoebe_wiki: (I want to leave time for other topics too)
[12:10am] Welles: I mean, governments are required to be transparent, and they manage to get things done. Why does the Foundation need less transparency than a city council?
[12:11am] wing2: The city council is not the government, the cabinet meeting for example is not public
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[12:11am] Theo10011: Expanding on what Welles said earlier, if the first people to get this position were regular community members......
[12:11am] Theo10011: it might have had different overtures.
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[12:12am] Pharos: I nominate Theo!
[12:12am] wing2: We had some discussion about the Canadian chapter
[12:12am] Theo10011: Pharos!!!
[12:12am] phoebe_wiki: Yes, we've actually approved a couple of chapters lately
[12:12am] phoebe_wiki: Macau & Canada
[12:12am] Theo10011: Bangladesh is also waiting I believe.
[12:12am] phoebe_wiki: (oh Caaaaaanada)
[12:13am] phoebe_wiki: Theo, Bangladesh hasn't come to the board from ChapCom yet ( think)
[12:13am] wing2: The openness resolution was approved shortly after our Berlin meeting
[12:13am] apergos: that was a huge step forward, thanks for putting that front and center
[12:13am] phoebe_wiki: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Openness
[12:13am] phoebe_wiki: thanks!
[12:13am] wing2: SJ is going to Buenos Aires to attend their celebration of Wikipedia-es ten
[12:13am] effeietsanders: Theo10011: several chapters are still in the chapcom pipeline
[12:14am] Theo10011: Phoebe_wiki: they are on their way, I was on their mailing list.
[12:14am] effeietsanders: including bangladesh
[12:14am] wing2: I believe Phoebe is also going to attend some events, Phoebe_
[12:14am] wing2: Phoebe?
[12:14am] phoebe_wiki: wing2: right, he's going to Iberocoop, I think
[12:14am] phoebe_wiki: I'm going to a library conference with Sue -- the American Libraries Association, it's the biggest library conference in the world
[12:14am] wing2: Bishakha is very involved in Indian community events
[12:14am] phoebe_wiki: She is giving the keynote and i'm on a panel
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[12:15am] phoebe_wiki: there will also be some staff tabling for the university initiative there I think
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[12:15am] phoebe_wiki: and Wing2, you're taking a trip too I think?
[12:15am] wing2: I am going to Almaty the week after next week because a major encyclopedia there is going to donate their entire content to us
[12:15am] phoebe_wiki: <- that is so cool
[12:15am] ChristineM: wow!
[12:15am] effeietsanders: Almaty?
[12:15am] Pharos: ah, awesome
[12:15am] wing2: and they asked an official representative from the Foundation
[12:15am] phoebe_wiki: Kazakhstan!
[12:16am] Courcelles: Kazakhstan. Major winter sports area
[12:16am] effeietsanders: ok, nice!
[12:16am] Nemo_bis: phoebe_wiki, bigger than IFLA?
[12:16am] • Theo10011 refrains himself from making Borat references.
[12:16am] StevenW: No Borat jokes please
[12:16am] Theo10011: lol
[12:16am] phoebe_wiki: nemo_bis: in numbers, yes, though not as international
[12:16am] effeietsanders: boarat
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[12:16am] Theo10011: StevenW: you have figured me out.
[12:16am] Ironholds: StevenW; what if it's a POSITIVE borat reference?
[12:17am] Ironholds: "they're donating all their content" "VERRR NAICE!"
[12:17am] wing2: Oh yes, and we are still working on the annual plan for our next fiscal year
[12:17am] StevenW: LOL Ironholds
[12:17am] wing2: That's I believe the current state of the board
[12:18am] phoebe_wiki: the annual plan will come to us for review later on this month; Sue and her team have been working hard on it
[12:18am] wing2: And effe I am going to Den Bosch
[12:18am] phoebe_wiki: that's the budget for the next year, the WMF's programs, etc
[12:18am] wing2: one day after I come back from Almaty
[12:18am] wing2: as promised
[12:18am] phoebe_wiki: Ok, so that took a long time but we've been busy!
[12:18am] effeietsanders: wonderful to hear!
[12:18am] effeietsanders:
[12:19am] phoebe_wiki: next on the agenda is new editor recruitment, or if people aren't interested in that we could talk about something else
[12:19am] phoebe_wiki: (or questions, I suppose, but I don't want to dominate the whole meeting)
[12:19am] effeietsanders: of course we are!
[12:19am] phoebe_wiki: any other announcements or projects?
[12:19am] phoebe_wiki: I certainly *hope* we're interested in it
[12:19am] effeietsanders: new editor persuation is very important :d
[12:20am] effeietsanders: my main challange is... how to persuade people to be nicer to newcomers
[12:20am] effeietsanders: (and not block on first sight etc)
[12:20am] Theo10011: persuation or retention?
[12:21am] effeietsanders: well, if you're nicer to newcomers, aren't they more likely to stick around?
[12:21am] StevenW: I think one of the barriers is that, because they deal with this huge firehose of new people and pages, it's hard to convince many experienced folks that newcomers are worth retaining at all.
[12:21am] Theo10011: *persuasion
[12:21am] Ironholds: effeietsanders: the line I'm looking at is "how do we prepare new users adequately so that they don't wander into the HERE BE DRAGONS, ARR bits without any kind of education".
[12:21am] wing2: What I am doing on zh-wp is try to do more myself. Not only just put on a {{wikify}}, but try to wikify by myself and place a notice on the user's talk page
[12:21am] Ironholds: so, for example, killing the entire help interface and replacing it with something readable should help
[12:22am] effeietsanders: wing2: however, you have the same problem as brion
[12:22am] effeietsanders: you don't scale
[12:23am] wing2: that's right, but the idea is that other people will follow you
[12:23am] Ironholds: ah, lead-by-example
[12:23am] effeietsanders: giving the right example is a good start though
[12:24am] wing2: And by admin-election ask: Give me a few examples where you helped other users
[12:24am] Welles: has anyone given any thought to the possibility that the declining number of admins means each admin has less time to devote to each newcomer, making it more likely that they just pull the block trigger and move on?
[12:24am] StevenW: That is more than just a possibility I think.
[12:25am] effeietsanders: Welles: yeah, have considered that too yes - very likely
[12:25am] effeietsanders: makes it an ever-lasting cycle
[12:25am] Theo10011: Welles not really the case for en.wp.
[12:26am] effeietsanders: but definitely for nlwiki
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[12:26am] wing2: Personally I also think that people should take a more leasure attitude. Hey, it's a hobby, not war
[12:26am] effeietsanders: it is not just about too little people, but also about too little /new/ people
[12:26am] wing2: I often observe people who think if they are one day not on wiki the whole project would die
[12:26am] effeietsanders: not enough people who actively remember how their first edit was like
[12:26am] Ironholds: effeietsanders: exactly
[12:27am] Ironholds: when you have a community mostly made up of veterans it's hard to internally assess whether we're all dicks to newbies
[12:27am] Ironholds: why? because we don't remember being newbies
[12:27am] effeietsanders: did we ever consider mystery shoppers?
[12:27am] Ironholds: and thus empathy is rather difficult
[12:27am] Ironholds: effeietsanders: we tried it on en-wiki
[12:28am] Ironholds: it's great, if you (to take the metaphor further) want your sales staff to quit in a huff at being deceived
[12:28am] effeietsanders: as in, people who's judgement the community trusts, but never edited. And actually tries out the processes anonymously and writes about it?
[12:28am] Ironholds: ooh, external people. gotcha.
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[12:28am] effeietsanders: yes, because they truely dont know
[12:28am] geniice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Newbie_treatment_at_Criteria_for_speedy_deletion
[12:28am] • Ironholds realises he's been dominating the conversation and stfus
[12:29am] Theo10011: You go girl.
[12:30am] phoebe_wiki:
[12:30am] apergos: admins should be helping new users? what aobu tthe rest of the editing community? shouldn't they be pitching in?
[12:30am] apergos: *about the
[12:30am] phoebe_wiki: apergos: indeed
[12:30am] apergos: and there are (usually) a lot more of them
[12:30am] wing2: apergos, they should, and make this to a criteria for admins has two effects:
[12:30am] Ironholds: if there aren't we really ARE in a retention crisis
[12:31am] Theo10011: en wiki has an extremely small number of admins compared to the number of editors.
[12:31am] wing2: First of all for a lot of users who are not admin to become an admin is sort of a recognition.
[12:31am] wing2: In the past the main criteria (on zh-wp) was did you help to administrate the website
[12:32am] phoebe_wiki: there are a lot of different community leaders: admins, people who have been around for a long time, project leaders... all should demonstrate helpfulness, and help others be helpful (ideally)
[12:32am] wing2: The idea is that people who want to be admin and are working on this realize that helping new users is a criteria
[12:32am] phoebe_wiki: yes
[12:32am] Theo10011: the problem with en.wp, and you could do a quick poll in any wikipedia channel is its RfA process.
[12:32am] apergos: how about the rest who either don't want to be admins or are not likely to be approved (and have some awareness of that)?
[12:33am] apergos: how might they be encouraged to mentor or be helpful or run interference or whatever?
[12:33am] wing2: We need to convince them too, sure
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[12:34am] apergos: I mean realistically on en pedia that's most folks, since as was just pointed out... only a few people make the hurdle any more
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[12:34am] • mindspillage comes back from rehearsal, sees people are still discussing; wow.
[12:34am] Ironholds: Theo10011: *a* problem. there are lots of problems
[12:34am] phoebe_wiki: so folks: this is a great discussion and I in no way want to cut it off. But we are at the end of the "official" open meeting time, such as it is But please keep chatting. I will need to go soon... I have proposed the first saturday in July as the next meeting time. If you want to figure out a good time, or add agenda items or ideas, please do so http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_meeting
[12:34am] phoebe_wiki: s#July_2.2C_2011
[12:34am] Theo10011: hiya mindspillage
[12:34am] phoebe_wiki: argh, that url is http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_meetings#July_2.2C_2011
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[12:35am] apergos: hello mindspillage
[12:35am] phoebe_wiki: hey mind! we had a nice "state of the board" update
[12:35am] Courcelles: Mindspillage, don't you know by now Wikimedians are nothing if not opinionated?
[12:35am] Theo10011: Ironholds you'd agree one of the most prominent ones is the RfA process itself .
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[12:35am] Ironholds: Courcelles: I forget, is 100 wikipedians 200 or 300 opinions? I can never decide
[12:35am] mindspillage: Courcelles: yes, but I also know Wikimedians are prone to going off on tangents and moving dicussion somewhere else.
[12:35am] Ironholds: Theo10011: s/prominent/most hotly debated, sure
[12:35am] StevenW: Thanks for the update phoebe_wiki and wing2
[12:35am] Ironholds: I wouldn't say it's the biggest problem, but I'd say it's the most glaring one
[12:36am] wing2: No problem, thank you for the discussions
[12:36am] Theo10011: mindspillage how was the rehersal? <-------(see, tangent)
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[12:37am] Seahorse_ is now known as Seahorse.
[12:37am] mindspillage: Theo10011: not full of too many different opinions, except about rhythm.
[12:37am] wing2: I am going to do dinner cookings. Leave me a message any time you want, I am in most times here and if not will see the message and respond later
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[12:38am] Theo10011: thanks wing2
[12:38am] apergos: phoebe_wiki: ?
[12:38am] DeltaQuad left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[12:38am] phoebe_wiki: yes?
[12:41am] Theo10011: Is the meeting over?
[12:42am] effeietsanders: it seems
[12:42am] Theo10011: no one has said anything for several minutes.
[12:42am] effeietsanders: thanks all for being here
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[12:42am] Theo10011: Ya thanks Phoebe.