CIS-A2K/IRC meeting 2012-04-05
[21:00] <Hmundol> Hi folks
[21:00] <a_r_n> hello everyone :D
[21:00] <Hmundol> Welcome to India Program IRC
[21:01] <Hmundol> This is the fortnightly office hours for India Program.
[21:01] <Hmundol> Here is what we would like to discuss today - which we shall do for the first 45 minutes and then throw it open for 15 minutes for any other topics that anyone wants to discuss related to India Program.
[21:01] <Hmundol> You may have noticed that we are increasing our emphasis on Wikisource. Please see Shiju's post on using simple technology to support digitazation (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Program/Indic_Languages/Digitization_of_books_in_Wikisource_using_DjVu) and Noopur's story of the Gujarati Wikisource (http://blog.wikimedia.in/2012/04/04/realizing-the-dreams-of-communities-3-years-6-users-1000-articles-counting-the-source-of-gujarati-wikisource/)
[21:01] <Hmundol> In addition, Shiju has been engaged with other communities on how to start or accelerate their respective language Wikisources.
[21:01] <Hmundol> Wikisource has some very important characteristics that make it attractive.
[21:01] <Hmundol> It's a (relatively) easier way for newbies to start contributing than the respective Wikipedia
[21:01] <Hmundol> It's a great way to reach out to language lovers - and love for a language is an important motivator for contribution (on this and other projects)
[21:01] <Hmundol> There is a much lower gender gap on Wikisource, and it's easy for a wider age group to contribute
[21:01] <Hmundol> It's more "accessible" as an entry point to newbies because it has less policies than other projects
[21:01] <Hmundol> It's can act as a gateway to other projects
[21:01] <Hmundol> In today's IRC, we'd like to talk through the work that's happening on Wikisource by many communities, discuss best practices and provide a channel of support for anyone interested in joining the project from any language.
[21:01] <Hmundol> Going to give you am in to go through what I just posted and then we can start.
[21:01] <Hmundol> Hi Tanvir
[21:01] <Hmundol> Hi Jyothis
[21:01] <Hmundol> HI Theo10011
[21:01] <Hmundol> Hi YuviPanda
[21:01] <Hmundol> Hi yannf
[21:01] <Shijualex> Good eveving all
[21:03] <Hmundol> ok, I'm hoping you have been able to go through that. We'll start now, and I'll ask Shiju to speak about the stuff that he's been working on specific to Indic Wikisources, and why it's important.
[21:03] <Theo10011> Yes, hello.
[21:03] <Jyothis> Hello Hmundol
[21:03] == bellayet [737f1874@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.8.131.52] has joined #wikimedia-office
[21:03] <Hmundol> Hi bellayet
[21:05] == Ironholds [~f@wikipedia/Ironholds] has joined #wikimedia-office
[21:05] == subha [~firstname.lastname@example.org] has joined #wikimedia-office
[21:05] =-= Topic for #wikimedia-office is “office hours | https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours | Publically logged during office hours.”
[21:05] =-= Topic for #wikimedia-office was set by Ironholds!~f@wikipedia/Ironholds on 24 March 2012 10:47:55 PM
[21:05] [INFO] Conference Mode has been enabled for this view; joins, leaves, quits and nickname changes will be hidden.
[21:05] === #wikimedia-office http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours
[21:05] Shijualex Vyas from Gu wikisource will also join soon
[21:05] subha Hi everyone!
[21:05] Hmundol That's great. We can hear from the gu wikisource folks directly as well
[21:06] a_r_n one gujarati is already here
[21:06] Hmundol …of course, a_r_n!!!
[21:06] Shijualex glad to see many Indic wiki librarains
[21:06] Theo10011 alright who wants voice?
[21:06] =-= Mode #wikimedia-office +v Hmundol by ChanServ
[21:06] Hmundol Shiju and I please, Theo10011
[21:06] =-= Mode #wikimedia-office +v Shijualex by ChanServ
[21:07] Shijualex We have wikisource in 8 Indic languages
[21:07] Hmundol Thanks, Theo10011
[21:07] Theo10011 yw.
[21:07] Shijualex out of which Bengali, Malayalam, and Sanskrit has very active communities
[21:08] Theo10011 Fluffernutter, Ironholds has ops here.
[21:08] Theo10011 oh lawdy.
[21:08] Fluffernutter heh
[21:08] Ironholds Theo10011: of course I do, I use this channel regularly as part of my job.
[21:08] AshLin Hi
[21:08] Theo10011 I know, but I never saw you op.
[21:08] Theo10011 hi AshLin
[21:08] Fluffernutter and no one
[21:08] Hmundol Hi AshLin
[21:08] AshLin Hi Theo
[21:08] Fluffernutter 's been killed in WEEKS
[21:08] Shijualex Gujarathi and Marathi are the two recent additions. and both are very active now
[21:09] AshLin Hi Hisham
[21:09] =-= Mode #wikimedia-office +o Ironholds by ChanServ
[21:09] Ironholds happy?
[21:09] =-= Mode #wikimedia-office -o Ironholds by Ironholds
[21:09] Theo10011 hides
[21:09] Shijualex Recently across various Indic wiki communities users are showing interest in Wikisource and Wiktionary
[21:10] Hmundol One of the hypotheses behind this is that they are relatively "easier" projects for newbies to get involved in
[21:10] Shijualex So I am seeing this as a gateway to gateway to other wiki projects of that langauge
[21:11] subha and there is no complications of citations
[21:11] AshLin I think that WikiSources have different audiences involoved than Wikipedia,people interested in the availability of free literature per se
[21:12] Shijualex that is true. but one thing that keep indic wikipedians together is love for language
[21:12] Hmundol Hi AshLin: It's probably that but also folks who are interested in digitizing literature.
[21:12] AshLin involvements are different from the standard Wikipedia case
[21:12] Shijualex so interest towards wikisource is natural for most indic wikipedians
[21:13] Shijualex one issue in general with wikisource is lack of support from other wikilibrarains
[21:14] Shijualex In Indic wikisources this has been an issue
[21:14] Shijualex slowly we are trying to bring out various knowlege base to help wiki librarains
[21:14] AshLin what do you mean by a wikilibrarian?
[21:15] Shijualex user working in wikisource is called Wikilibrarian
[21:16] Ironholds ...why?
[21:16] Shijualex the recent knowledge base about DjVu digitization was part of that knowledge base
[21:16] Hmundol reference: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Program/Indic_Languages/Digitization_of_books_in_Wikisource_using_DjVu
[21:17] Shijualex but we need more such type of knowledge sharing to support Indic wiki librarains
[21:17] FishTankCleaner err.. hello
[21:17] Theo10011 hi
[21:17] Shijualex One recent issue I noticed that most of Indic wikisources lack support for Proofread extension and associated namespaces
[21:18] a_r_n Hello Dhaval
[21:18] Shijualex also subpages in main namespace is an importanat requirement for wkisource
[21:18] srikanthlogic Shijualex: I think there have been bugs for those
[21:18] Dhaval Hi a_r_n
[21:18] Shijualex so recently Telugu, Bengali, and so on has logged for these
[21:19] Shijualex yes yes. I am helping them to identlify the requirements
[21:19] srikanthlogic Shijualex: If all wikisources need subpages, probably it should go into base configuration
[21:19] FishTankCleaner shijualex, is this proofread extension a mediawiki based issue or external one?
[21:19] srikanthlogic FishTankCleaner: its mw extn
[21:19] Shijualex it is mediawiki based
[21:20] FishTankCleaner oh, I see.
[21:20] Shijualex http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Proofread_Page
[21:20] Hmundol A longer term issue (and I'm hoping is that it is not that long-term) is the lack of an adequate Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software solution that works in Indic languages. So the efforts of wikilibrarians is fairly tough as they have to - quite literally - type out everything. If there is anyone from the FOSS community on here, do let us know if there's anything tin the pipeline. It's sorely needed
[21:20] Shijualex as of now Malayalam, Sanskit, and Gujarati are using it
[21:21] a_r_n from gujarati wikisource Dhaval is still typing out don't know about others using the extension ..
[21:22] Shijualex Proofread extenison is enabled in all wikisources. but associated namespaces are not created. So the bugs we recently logged for this
[21:22] FishTankCleaner even on Hindi, as far as I know, it's solely based on typing.
[21:22] srikanthlogic Hmundol: Indic OCR will take sometime, irrespective of FOSS / non-FOSS I guess
[21:23] Hmundol Hey Dhaval, would be really nice to ask you and the other Gujarati folks this. I understand your motivations in starting Wikisource (http://blog.wikimedia.in/2012/04/04/realizing-the-dreams-of-communities-3-years-6-users-1000-articles-counting-the-source-of-gujarati-wikisource/) but would be interesting to know about the vision that you see for your Wikisource.
[21:23] AshLin okay, will tell the mr dudes about this
[21:23] Shijualex Ahwin, sure
[21:24] Shijualex It will be Gujarati wiikilibrarains can speak about their experince
[21:25] Dhaval a_r_n: can u see this?
[21:26] Shijualex Among Indic wikisources Bangla has the most number of pages. We need to rearraage the pages there once subpage feature is enabled there
[21:26] Dhaval Sorry guys, i can't see u
[21:26] Hmundol We can see what you are typing, Dhaval.
[21:27] Shijualex Yesterday one Malayalam Wikilibrarain created a script from which we were able to know Malayalam wikisource has more than 600 books added to ot
[21:27] Shijualex Planning to run the same for other Indic wikisources also to keep track of the books added to wikisource
[21:28] AshLin One resource I recommend is a catalogue of articles available on each Indic Wikisource
[21:29] Shijualex a_r_n: could you speak littele about your GU wikisource experince?
[21:29] Shijualex AshLin: Yes, we need to make such a resource
[21:29] subha There should be a list of alphabets for easy navigation as well..
[21:30] Shijualex subha: that is available by default
[21:30] AshLin the more the ways to find what you need, the more useful the WikiSource becomes
[21:31] a_r_n Shijualex: frankly speaking I have not at all started working on GU Wikisource, am working on GU WP only till now, issue I had been facing was I didn't have any "Free Material" with me to put on wikisource ..... until I found this http://archive.org/search.php?query=%28language%3Aguj+OR+language%3A%22Gujarati%22%29 from archives, now I can get some number of books from here which are not under copyrights to put on GU Wikisource
[21:32] giri sorry, late. hello, everyone
[21:32] Shijualex a_r_n: defintely you can start with that. I shall help you with converting that to DjVu and move to commons. Then you can start digitizing that
[21:33] Shijualex http://archive.org is a rich resource for most Indic langauges
[21:34] a_r_n Shijualex: sure ...
[21:34] a_r_n and Dhaval is back again ... can you please tell us from where do you get material to put on GU Wikisource ....
[21:35] Shijualex we have lot of source text available in PDF format for most indic langauges, but we need more memebers to start working on some of these
[21:35] Dhaval We simply get the books and type mostly
[21:36] a_r_n ok Shijualex until now I guess Dhaval and others used "Hard Copy" of books to type on GU Wikisource ....
[21:36] Dhaval We had some material available on various blogs, tricky ain't it?
[21:37] giri Dhaval: presumably _all_ the material is out of copyright?
[21:37] Dhaval Giri: of course, that's what we check first
[21:37] Shijualex Infact not. We have PDF version availale. Now after we enabled prrofread exteinsion digitization is much easier
[21:38] Shijualex Public Domain or Free Licensed books can go Wikisource
[21:38] Dhaval We hv been on wiki for 3+ yrs
[21:39] giri Dhaval: that's great. i've been teaching this semester a course using http://www.gutenberg.org extensively. that's really a blessing
[21:39] Shijualex I remmeber a free licesed book which was published in 2010 has been added to Malayalam wikisource recently
[21:39] a_r_n Dhaval: I don't know if you are aware about this or not, but please do check this http://archive.org/search.php?query=%28language%3Aguj+OR+language%3A%22Gujarati%22%29
[21:40] Dhaval I had a question, what if someone wants to publish his/her own work here?
[21:40] giri Dhaval: good question!
[21:40] subha if he/she a notable writer
[21:40] Shijualex Dhaval, in general Wikisource do not alllow that
[21:40] giri subha: what is "notable"?
[21:40] subha then I guess, it's allowed
[21:41] Dhaval subha: i echo giri, what is notable?
[21:41] subha notable enough to have an article on WP
[21:41] srikanthlogic subha: thats vague
[21:41] Shijualex none of the wiki projects (except Wikibooks to some extent) cannot be used as a place for publishing
[21:41] AshLin Please check licenses carefully on archive.org as lack of copyright is not a pre-requisite. Even orphan copyrighted books uncontested may be found
[21:42] AshLin @Dhaval: In such cases, archive.org permits such donation or upload there under a free license
[21:42] a_r_n AshLin: ok, didn't know about that, if Google books says its copyright free, can we use that .... ?
[21:42] Dhaval But as one can upload his own copyrigthed pic on commons, why not work on source?
[21:43] AshLin better check out the provenance carefully
[21:43] AshLin each & every time
[21:43] giri AshLin: good advice
[21:43] Dhaval AshLin:publishing is no isdue, there are several other places where one can publish free
[21:44] AshLin Each WikiSource needs to check the provenace of all its contributions to ceck that people have not uploaded copyrighted material in eagerness
[21:44] Dhaval And these are more popular than source
[21:44] AshLin as such I dont think ther is a ban on wikisource from POV of notable
[21:45] AshLin for example, if I understand it correctly, I write a free textbook or book on any topic, I can upload it to WikiSource
[21:45] Shijualex AshLin: it is mostly license
[21:45] Hmundol Folks, just wanted to say that we are now at the 45 minute mark. This discussion on Wikisource should continue but if there are any other questions on India Program, happy to take them.
[21:45] AshLin yes "free" means free license
[21:46] Shijualex most of the old texts are notable just due to the fact that it is old
[21:46] Dhaval True shiju
[21:46] Shijualex In genral I should say wikisource is a great place to build community for indic wikis.
[21:46] giri Hmundol: thanks for the reminder
[21:46] Shijualex and gender gap doesnot exist there
[21:47] Dhaval I'll defer on gender issue shiju
[21:47] AshLin it is not the business of Wikisource to prevent a text coming onboard because it may not be "notable", however in choosing the priority of books to digitise and upload, this should be one of the major considerations
[21:47] Shijualex In malayalam and sanskrit we have many female wikilibrarains
[21:48] AshLin yep, probably there are more female sanskrit scholars in india now in academica
[21:49] Dhaval I think its about one's interest
[21:49] giri AshLin: really? you mean compared to a generation ago?
[21:49] AshLin i think so, because of the last ten or so people i met who were sanskrit scholars, more than half were women
[21:50] Shijualex AshLin: might be true
[21:50] AshLin we had three women scholars from Bangalore at the WikiConference
[21:50] Shijualex I think as we move forward same will be case with most Indic wikisources
[21:50] Hmundol Another interesting aspect of Wikilibrarians is that, in Kerala, for example, students (below 10th standard) are involved in the project informally
[21:51] giri AshLin: ok. you reckon they have always been around, but now they are more "visible"?
[21:51] Hmundol It's a great place for them to do the class work of typing content in malayalam and community folks now work - in an informal manner - with the teachers and professors to get content from students.
[21:51] AshLin giri:cant really say
[21:52] Hmundol (It of course helps that Wikipedia is taught in the 7th standard, if I am not mistaken. - so it gives sister projects "academic credibility"
[21:52] Hmundol Folks, please feel free to ask any questions that you might have. …on Wikisource or anything else related to India Program.
[21:53] AshLin I cannot emphasise over & over again the need for all Wikisources to check their inventory to ensure everything is copyright-clean, otherwise the task will be beyond control soon
[21:53] Hmundol If for example, you are interested in starting or expanding a Wikisource, and had a doubt or needed support, here's the place to sk.
[21:53] Hmundol place to ask...
[21:54] Hmundol Of course, and i'm adding this line for the purpose of the folks reading this log, do feel free to reach out to email@example.com if you want to carry on this discussion.
[21:54] Dhaval AshLin: we have 100% copyleft public domain material on gusource
[21:55] AshLin Another best practice : as we complete each major book in Wikisource, we should get it "released" in a prominent function
[21:55] AshLin Dhaval: that is good to hear. But on each talk page add a provenavce statement which explains how it is clearly public domain or copyleft
[21:55] Hmundol Hi Folks. wuik time check. We have 5 minutes left.
[21:56] Shijualex AshLin: going forward it might not be feasible . Remmeber Malayalam has 600 books. So community should have organized 600 functions for this
[21:56] AshLin For example, Amol Palekar inaugurated the Mr Wikisource and it drew good crowd & got lot of public support promised to the project
[21:57] giri Shijualex:
[21:57] AshLin Of course, you dont have to do 600, but why not?
[21:57] Dhaval Niceone, we'll start that
[21:57] Dhaval Once again, if a 'notable' writer releases his copyright for us, is there any scope for such works?
[21:57] Shijualex It will be nice to have when we finish digitization of some major books
[21:58] AshLin if there is someone from artists/author's family, or person who has acted in the film based on it or a Gandhiian, we can have a few functions
[21:58] Shijualex Yes Dhaval
[21:58] Dhaval How shiju?
[21:58] AshLin For example, has Gu Wikisource released its first Gandhi compilation?
[21:58] Shijualex So AshLin idea is good to attract more language speakers to wikisource
[21:59] Dhaval Then, doesn't that relate to my earlier question?
[21:59] Shijualex what was that Dhaval?
[21:59] AshLin it is agenuine pressworthy event, and we can make much of it in public function
[22:00] Dhaval Allowing works to be published by the authors
[22:00] Hmundol Hey AshLin: Agree that Wikisource milestones (number of books, or major compilation), etc. can and should be used as opportunities for public events / media coverage. Essentially, the key thing though is that these events will be most useful if we are able to attract new wikilibrarians.
[22:00] Shijualex it depends on the author Dhaval
[22:01] Dhaval When i say publishing, don't mean exclusive publication, but parallel release
[22:01] yannf http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Crafts_Museum,_New_Delhi
[22:01] Hmundol Folks, it's 10pm IST and we're good to close this IRC.
[22:01] Hmundol I'll end the logs now, but do feel free to carry on this discussion.
[22:01] yannf I would like to thank Noopur for organizing this photo session
[22:01] AshLin this can be extended to completion of landmark articles on Indic Wikipedia too
[22:02] Hmundol We'll post the logs up at the usual place. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Program/meetings
[22:02] Hmundol Thanks so much for attending. It's been a really useful discussion.
[22:02] Hmundol Absolutely, AshLin.
[22:03] Hmundol Thanks, folks, once again. Good night.
[22:03] yannf Dhaval, it should have been published elsewhere before
[22:03] RajeshPandey Good night
[22:03] Shijualex Thank you all. Reach out to me firstname.lastname@example.org if you require any support on Indic wikisource
[22:03] subha Goodnight everyone!
[22:04] yannf note that all wikisources do not agree of what constitue a publication
[22:04] yannf I think French and English WS accept a Internet publication, but not the German
[22:04] Dhaval yannf:of course, it must be
[22:05] Dhaval I am not canvasing to convert eikisource to be a blogpost
[22:06] yannf I am very interested by the GLAM programme
[22:07] =-= Mode #wikimedia-office -v Shijualex by ChanServ
[22:07] Shijualex you are welcome Yann. Hope you will be there for next meeting also
[22:08] Dhaval Good night guys
[22:08] AshLin Hi Yann, I had a good visit to Jawaharlal Nehru Museum, Itanagar & got about a hundred images pertaining to tribal objects, dresses, dioramas etc
[22:09] AshLin all for the cost of Rs 20/- ie 40 cents for the camera license
[22:09] AshLin no prohibitions of any kind
[22:09] yannf AshLin, would they allow a tripod?
[22:09] yannf that's a must for good photos
[22:10] AshLin I did not have one so did not think of it, but I think they may not have objected
[22:10] AshLin I do agree but even without that, record shots for Wikipedia taken by hand are quite okay
[22:11] AshLin please check my commons contribs
[22:12] yannf AshLin, for illustrating articles, hand shots are OK, but I aim better than that
[22:12] AshLin the important thing I feel is that to the extent we can we need to take as many images of exhibits (reasonable quality or better) for the sake of culture
[22:12] AshLin yep, definitely not Natgeo quality, lol
[22:14] AshLin they had a diorama of twenty odd tribes which Icould photograph & they provide excellent images to embellish the articles about the peoples
[22:15] AshLin yannf:thanks, nice talking to you, good night all
[22:23] giri g'nite folks
[22:28] yannf anyone could correct a SVG map of MP here?
[22:28] irvin hi everybody out there...... !
[22:29] yannf I asked long ago, no answer
[22:31] Irvincalicut hi..........