Grants talk:Project/Rapid/Gaurav Jhammat/Punjabi Wikipedia Content Policy Toolkit

I am confused

Hello, sorry for my confusion, but since when, policy writing on wiki is considered a paid job? Wikipedia policies are created by community discussions and consensus by volunteers and asking money to write a policy and getting it ratified is totally over my head. Also, why do you need huge amount like for this kind of work? If this money is given, WMF should start paying all wiki editors money for on-wiki works including policy making. Please clear my confusion. -- Bodhisattwa (talk) 10:54, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Dear Bodhisattwa

Thanks for your concern and comment on this project. Basically this project is about working with the Punjabi community and learning from other communities towards policy generation for local wiki content by which we can identify and find problems in our local wiki which we can solve by training local editors as per a guided way. We are discussing with University Research Scholars and language experts regarding manuals of style for the Punjabi language. Also, we are seeking for some technical assistance under this project as we have a need of implication of some technical tools on our local wikipedia.

Our local wiki has around 37K articles in which many thousands are stub and now these stub have their own kind of categories. Some are just one line or four-five word articles. Some are just a form of vandalism. Some are created by people of their own. Some articles are written in full english. Now What should we simply do at first? Delete them? Yes we must but we can't because we don't have any policy yet for speedy deletion or improvisation for such kinds of articles.

Second thing is there is one more situation in which articles are not stub but they are not in 'looking nice' condition. They have some language, style, pattern, length, and reference issues. All these issues we have decided to fix by creating a policy toolkit by which we can standardize our wiki.. We can limit a minimum length for any new article to stay on wiki.

We have had a conversation between community members about it a few years ago but the community has been finding it difficult to coordinate with each other and finalize the policies. The lack of tracking tools also makes it difficult to ensure the quality of the content. So, as part of this project, we will work with our community to finalize the policies and then organize workshops to educate the community about these policies and improvise articles according to those policies. We have started working on it as we already have organized a workshop to train some new editors. But because of the lack of policies we always find difficulties to train new editors.

I will coordinate with the Punjabi community, technical contributors and other Indic communities who already worked on policies or if they have any idea regarding the community enrichment, policies and so on. So, in short, a policy toolkit will have a major impact on this project and this is important for our Wikipedia and community growth. This project is not only about creating a Policy toolkit but it also consists of engaging community members including mentioned above things. I proceed with this project properly, for example, I scheduled a few team meetings to talk about mentioned concerns with my community members as well as a survey is also behind it.

So, please let me know if you have any more questions? Thank you Gaurav Jhammat (talk) 12:56, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply but it is still not clear to me. There are policies for everything you have said in all major wiki's and there is no need to spend money for reinventing the wheel. Policies are not paid work in any wiki and whatever is done around policy making including community engagement is purely a volunteer work. IMHO, asking money for that is unprecedented and starts a bad example. As a volunteer, I am totally against it. Of course the grants committee will best decide if this proposal can be funded but if funded, it may open a Pandora's box which will definitely cite this bad example and ask for money in all policy related works on all wikis, which will.break basic fabric of volunteer community dynamics. -- Bodhisattwa (talk) 13:58, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I am glad to see your concern towards this project and sorry if I couldn't clarify your objections but again I will say this project is not just about making a policy toolkit, it's about coordination of the whole project which includes multiple workshops and training sessions. Policy writing is hectic work as it will consume my full time and labor. A few years ago We started working on policy-making but it didn't completed due to lack of coordination and volunteer's personal commitments. Maybe you are right and this work can be done at a voluntary level by the community but such things as community engagement continued discussion with Punjabi and other indic community members and continued discussion with language experts to improve the toolkit can't be done at the voluntary level by a single person voluntary contribution. If he is giving his full time to it, then he must get a prize for it. Now if you say, do it part-time or collaborate with others, we have already raised this issue at the community level and nobody took an initiative to start it. So, I am taking this as a project so that we can finish this project quickly.--Gaurav Jhammat (talk) 13:08, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

some thoughts

Hello, I too don't understand why you need money to write a policy for style, pattern, length, and reference issues etc. What you described, i do it for free (voluntary) on my wiki, not just me, everyone do same on their wiki. As Bodhisattwa said "Wikipedia policies are created by community discussions and consensus by volunteers".

Here are some:

• "Our local wiki has around 37K articles in which many thousands are stub and now these stub have their own kind of categories. ... Now What should we simply do at first? Delete them? Yes we must but we can't because we don't have any policy yet for speedy deletion or improvisation for such kinds of articles." -- Import Wikipedia:Notability, Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion to your wiki and modify it and then act based on it.
• "We have started working on it as we already have organized a workshop to train some new editors. But because of the lack of policies we always find difficulties to train new editors." -- First try importing these & modify.
• "Also, we are seeking for some technical assistance under this project as we have a need of implication of some technical tools on our local wikipedia." -- Ask on Indic-TechCom
• "The lack of tracking tools also makes it difficult to ensure the quality of the content." -- Did you ever tried https://petscan.wmflabs.org/ ? or https://quarry.wmcloud.org ? or pa:ਖ਼ਾਸ:ਖ਼ਾਸ_ਸਫ਼ੇ?
• "We are discussing with University Research Scholars and language experts regarding manuals of style for the Punjabi language." -- If you don't know manual of style, how are you even contributing in you wiki? I thought it was common knowledge, when i was in school i (we all) learn those there.

Sorry to say that i can't support this proposal. Basically you're asking money for that which others do voluntary on regular basis. If WMF feels generous, they can fund you. --আফতাবুজ্জামান (talk) 16:34, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I must agree in full with the objections raised by Bodhisattwa and Aftab here. Mahir256 (talk) 06:46, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

I have read all your concerns about this project and thanks for sharing these with us. Let it discuss one by one. Your first concern is why it's not voluntary but paid. So my answer is it’s not a task of just a day or week. It will be longer up to months which will include other tasks too. I would not be writing the policy rather facilitating my community around it. My community recognizes the importance of this work as its been many years. Also, educating different community members about the policies and organizing edit-a-thons will be a major responsibility of mine.

Your second concern or suggestion is the deletion of vandalized or stub articles. They are poor just because of lack of proper guidance of wiki-style manual and wikitext. Now as a small community, we have just 37k (around) articles. So it will be more relevant if we improve them rather than delete them all.

We have added a task of technical assistance and support to our projects as we are getting it at a voluntary level. I think there shouldn’t be an issue as we are not paying for this role.

Sorry if we couldn't explain to you the meaning of the language style about which we are discussing. We know the difference between a wiki language and a common language. Perhaps its limited to Punjabi language but I don't think so. There are social media discussions about what Punjabi word for death should be used for an ordinary individual and what word should be used for a Sikh guru. This is one example, there are numerous other instances that should be noted down and require support from language experts. Any new user has their own language style/spelling sense that they bring to the wiki or in which they create their articles. Each user has their own spelling mistakes and it is impossible to give each user so much personal time. For example, we have the word ‘university’ written with different spellings. There are many words or phrases that have to be communicated to the community through a document that this is the right way to use this word or phrase and that it should be used as such. That's why we're preparing a document to avoid the time spent to explain contemporary users one to one or help future users. For the knowledge of these qualitative grammatical nuisances, we have to talk to linguists. Such language comprehension is not taken lightly. This knowledge is gained only through continuous study of language. That's why it shouldn't be ignored by saying it's so easy.

Let me know if you have any more questions or any doubts? Thank you Gaurav Jhammat (talk) 13:16, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

For first part, what you said i have experiences. 4 years ago on bnwiki, we did similar things, i had to do all the behind work (on & offwiki). I still do same thing voluntary (still we don't have every policy, we are working). I know very well it can be done voluntary, even if it is longer than a month. What you described, not just me, everyone do same on their wiki as voluntary. For community coordination and project management, you don't need 2 Lakh INR. Also that too much money. That's basically asking for paid editing like as an employee. Instead, you should ask on CIS-A2K/Requests. They can help you with internet, editathon, workshop etc.

"Sorry if we couldn't explain to you the meaning of the language style.... We know the difference between a wiki language and a common language...." -- You don't need language expert for that. It should be decided by community discussions and consensus by volunteers.

"For example, we have the word ‘university’ written with different spellings...." -- I know, in my language we have same type of issue but again you don't need language expert. In case if you have doubt disagreement, discussion on your wikipedia. An example from my homewiki & no, we didn't ask WMF to give us money so we can ask expert about this. This happens frequently, not just bnwiki & that's normal & part of wikipedia. আফতাবুজ্জামান (talk) 17:55, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

My community feels that someone should help coordinate this process with them and also educate everyone around them. Every community might have different context and different needs. Thank you for your feedback. --Gaurav Jhammat (talk) 10:11, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

WMF staff

The team includes SGill (WMF), a WMF staff as advisor. Does that mean WMF is promoting paid editing on policy making and documentation? Does that imply, WMF will start paying every volunteer from every community who has worked on policies on their wikis? Hope this will be discussed on all relevant mailing lists because this looks like a major shift on how Wikimedia works. If not, what kind of advice is the staff giving to this team? -- Bodhisattwa (talk) 14:30, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

@Bodhisattwa I am advising on this project in my volunteer capacity. My username has been changed to my volunteer account on the proposal itself.

Also, this project is not about writing the policy by one person but rather helping coordinate with the community and experts to co-create various policies. Workshops with other community members to educate them about the policies and organizing further events is a major component of this project. Satdeep Gill (talk) 10:50, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Stub tags

I saw a link to this at w:en:Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#They are asking money for policy writing! (last old id before the topic got archived) I thought I should also mention that there have been several unrelated discussions at the English Wikipedia about deprecating stub tags, because they do not provide any apparent value. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:19, 7 December 2021 (UTC)