Aug 03 19:03:36 * seanw sets mode +m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:03:41 * seanw bangs the gavel.
Aug 03 19:04:04 <seanw> Good evening all: ladies, gentlemen, and those of you joining us from wikinews ;)
Aug 03 19:04:25 <seanw> Let me explain a little about this is going to work.
Aug 03 19:04:41 <seanw> We have *a lot* of people, far more than expected, so I will briefly re-explain the moderation plan we have ready.
Aug 03 19:04:47 * ^demon (i=c7f4d63b@wikipedia/insertdemon) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:04:50 * Mentifisto (i=Loki@wikipedia/Mentifisto) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:05:03 * seanw gives voice to kibble
Aug 03 19:05:12 * Olivier_Bommel (i=52ab876f@gateway/web/freenode/x-yqyluzbvocgeombh) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:05:15 <seanw> As we move to each topic of the meeting, we'll moderate the channel, so that only the group contacts and anyone relevent to the discussion can speak.
Aug 03 19:05:15 * Olivier_Bommel (i=52ab876f@gateway/web/freenode/x-yqyluzbvocgeombh) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:05:21 * Vito (n=Vito@unaffiliated/vito) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:05:34 <seanw> All your messages will still reach me however as chair, so if you feel you agve something to add, say it even when the channel is moderated and I'll see it.
Aug 03 19:05:55 <seanw> But throughout the meeting please try to restrict what you want to say to important stuff to prevent drowning.
Aug 03 19:06:13 * JamieS93 (n=JamieS93@wikipedia/JamieS93) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:06:18 <seanw> We'll unmoderate to allow general discussion on each topic
Aug 03 19:06:19 * Vito_away (n=Vito@unaffiliated/vito) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:06:25 <seanw> Please say something if this is unclear to you :)
Aug 03 19:06:33 * JamieS93 has quit (Client Quit)
Aug 03 19:06:50 * _jem_ (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:06:53 * Dragonfly6-7 (email@example.com) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:07:03 * I_am_Keegan (n=chatzill@Wikipedia/Keegan) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:07:17 * Olivier_Bommel (i=52ab876f@gateway/web/freenode/x-yqyluzbvocgeombh) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:07:17 <seanw> Okay then. So briefly, the purpose of the meeting: to allow IRC discussion when hopefully everyone/almost everyone who has a stake in IRC or the power to change it is around.
Aug 03 19:07:35 * Olivier_Bommel (i=52ab876f@gateway/web/freenode/x-yqyluzbvocgeombh) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:07:46 <seanw> Please do chip in, and I'll try my best to let everyone speak.
Aug 03 19:08:00 <seanw> With that, let's waste no more time and get started on this.
Aug 03 19:08:08 <seanw> Oh
Aug 03 19:08:15 * Topic for #wikimedia-irc-meetings is: IRC Group Contacts meeting here on Monday August 3rd @ 1900Z, tell your friends | Sign up and post topics for discussion at <http://tinyurl.com/l6lfd9>; all general interest Wikimedia IRC topics welcome | Meeting will be logged and posted to Meta
Aug 03 19:08:15 * Topic for #wikimedia-irc-meetings set by Rjd0060 at Sun Aug 2 15:47:29 2009
Aug 03 19:08:27 <seanw> Thanks kibble - the agenda is at http: //bit.ly/GCmeet :)
Aug 03 19:08:34 <seanw> I'll be following that, you can add things to the end if you like.
Aug 03 19:08:57 * MuZemike (n=chatzill@wikimedia/MuZemike) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:09:11 <seanw> [19:10:23] <FastLizard4> I have a question - who is doing the logging, i.e., when the channel is moderated, will the log also contain the messages of devoiced people?
Aug 03 19:09:29 <seanw> Answer: the GCs will post the logs, it probably won't contain devoiced messages.
Aug 03 19:09:41 <seanw> Right then let us get going with our first topic.
Aug 03 19:09:48 <seanw> This is the channel #wikimedia-ops
Aug 03 19:09:55 * szwedzki (n=szwedzki@wikipedia/szwedzki) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:10:39 <seanw> The GCs have been working hard lately to try and and get all ops into #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:10:56 * worby (i=4a67a84a@wikimedia/Cbrown1023) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:10:56 * ChanServ gives voice to worby
Aug 03 19:10:59 <Rjd0060> * #wikimedia-ops, rather
Aug 03 19:11:00 <seanw> er
Aug 03 19:11:02 <seanw> #wikimedia-ops
Aug 03 19:11:31 * Japsu (i=santtu@wikipedia/Japsu) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:11:40 <seanw> Those of you who use -ops, is it useful?
Aug 03 19:11:48 <seanw> Is it a constructive place for ops to discuss, what could be improved?
Aug 03 19:12:20 <seanw> Before we open to the floor, cubs197 asks what #wikimedia-ops is
Aug 03 19:12:34 <seanw> It's a channel which our chan ops are encouraged to join to co-ordinate op action and instill a sense of teamwork into the job.
Aug 03 19:12:36 * Marco27 (n=Marco27@wikipedia/Marco27) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:12:43 <seanw> With that, let's see what people haev to say,.
Aug 03 19:12:46 * seanw sets mode -m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:12:51 <cubs197> bout time
Aug 03 19:12:55 <cubs197> :)
Aug 03 19:13:05 <domas> I hereby declare that #wikimedia-tech doesn't need coordinated op actions %)
Aug 03 19:13:05 <worby> and also, it's a channel for banned or kicked users to poke for help (or anyone, really)
Aug 03 19:13:19 <paxcoder> Vito: discussion pages older than X years should cease to exsit. (important votes might be remain in archives somewhere tho)
Aug 03 19:13:23 <harej> I brought this up with Sean and the Group Contacts recently. I don't really find there to be a use for a "global" ops channel considering that each channel is its own community. For example, #wikipedia-en-admins-ops exists to service #wikipedia-en-admins
Aug 03 19:13:43 <Martinp23> fortunately wiki channels tend to be relatively drama free. However, when drama does come up it's important to talk in the channel to coordinate the response and so on. For example, wikipedia was down for a while last week. -ops was used a little, but it would perhaps have been helpful for it to be used to properly ensure that the ops of channels knew what was going on, so they could tell their users.
Aug 03 19:13:52 <OlEnglish> there's been criticism that IRC encourages cabal-like behaviour
Aug 03 19:13:57 * Nishkid64 (i=c40327d1@wikipedia/nishkid64) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:14:03 <[MarkW]> I don't agree with harej,the advantage is for cross-channel abuse and to reach out for other-channel admins in an easy way
Aug 03 19:14:05 <Mike_lifeguard> paxcoder: That's not the topic we're discussing. Please try to stay on-topic. Thanks.
Aug 03 19:14:10 <Martinp23> (and so perhaps -tech could coordinate in that way, considering their block message tells people to join irc for more info, and then no one tells us what's going on!)
Aug 03 19:14:11 <seanw> harej, this is true. It is mainly used for #wikipedia, media and -en
Aug 03 19:14:13 <[MarkW]> and it good be used for global notifications as well
Aug 03 19:14:15 <paxcoder> Mike_lifeguard: what's the topic?
Aug 03 19:14:17 <Martinp23> (we're lucky now to have werdna)
Aug 03 19:14:26 <Dragonfly6-7> OlEnglish - as shown by Parkinson's Law, this cannot be avoided, no matter what medium of communication is used
Aug 03 19:14:34 <OlEnglish> mhmm
Aug 03 19:14:34 <saper> [MarkW]: I think that cross channel abuse is to be handled by server operators, not channel operators
Aug 03 19:14:42 <Prodego> not always
Aug 03 19:14:42 <cubs197> the wikipedia down situation was chaos, either wa you look at it
Aug 03 19:14:53 <Dragonfly6-7> cubs197 - you mean the planned outage the other day?
Aug 03 19:14:53 <Prodego> only network abuse is handled by ircops
Aug 03 19:14:56 <MuZemike> I agree with OlEnglish. Many users don't like the usage of IRC for communication because it's not well-documented like everything is on-wiki.
Aug 03 19:15:06 <charitwo> Prodego: freenode doesn't have ircops, it has staff
Aug 03 19:15:06 <cubs197> Dragonfly6-7 yes
Aug 03 19:15:11 <[MarkW]> saper: Not if the abuse is limited to e.g. wp-en and wp-nl
Aug 03 19:15:14 <paxcoder> MuZemike: o.O
Aug 03 19:15:15 <Prodego> charitwo: they are the same thing
Aug 03 19:15:18 <^demon> I'm with most other people here, I don't see a huge utility in a specific cross-project ops chan. Most channels handle their own ops pretty well, and cross-channel issues are usually handled by freenode effectively.
Aug 03 19:15:20 <harej> The question is: is there a more logical way of coordinating ops without redundancy? Should we have a system where #wikiquote-zh is serviced by the same ops channel as #wikipedia-en ?
Aug 03 19:15:20 <DaBPunkt> cross-channel-vandalism is very rarely, so another-channel for is is over-do IMHO
Aug 03 19:15:22 <charitwo> Prodego: freenode is not like other networks
Aug 03 19:15:23 * paxcoder gets bored and leaves
Aug 03 19:15:25 * paxcoder (n=paxcoder@unaffiliated/paxcoder) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings ("")free("")
Aug 03 19:15:29 <saper> Prodego: well, somebody was once joining and leaving many wikimedia channels at once, ops couldn't do much
Aug 03 19:15:36 <kibble> ^demon, we've had a cross-project ops channel for years :-)
Aug 03 19:15:39 <Mike_lifeguard> MuZemike: I've suggested we discuss logging as it's own topic later because I think it is quite important.
Aug 03 19:15:45 <[MarkW]> saper: That wasn't the abuse I was talking about :P
Aug 03 19:15:46 <Prodego> if I were in #freenode I would call them that, but I am using terms people are more likely to be familiar with
Aug 03 19:15:57 * Fleetflame (n=Fleetfla@wikipedia/Fleetflame) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:15:58 * cubs197 can't read all the flying text
Aug 03 19:16:01 <saper> [MarkW]: but that was the only real example I encountered :)
Aug 03 19:16:02 <MuZemike> Mike_lifeguard: great. We can wait.
Aug 03 19:16:03 <[MarkW]> saper: I was more talking about the abuse where a user is nagging different channels because he/she wants a unblock or something
Aug 03 19:16:14 <seanw> It is worth mentioing the other purpose of -ops
Aug 03 19:16:15 * Gurumasa (i=Gurumasa@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe8cfb00-221.dhcp.inet.fi) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:16:16 <OlEnglish> what were we talking about again?
Aug 03 19:16:16 <Mike_lifeguard> harej: I doubt you'll find it useful to have people as ops in a channel where they don't know the community or the language
Aug 03 19:16:21 <Rjd0060> The way I see #wikimedia-ops, is like Meta. If you're banned from a small channel (#wikiquote-zh for example), where would you go? Not everybody knows how to check access lists and what not, so we have #wikimedia-ops which is fairly well known
Aug 03 19:16:30 <saper> the issue is more that channel ops are very often unavailable
Aug 03 19:16:33 <Rjd0060> It's a support channel, like #freenode if you will, for wikimedia related channels
Aug 03 19:16:35 * mpeel|Poland (n=mpeel@wikipedia/Mike-Peel) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:16:37 <Martinp23> DaBPunkt: it's quite common actually, but more so across english language channels i think.
Aug 03 19:16:48 <^demon> kibble: I know we already have it, I'm just saying I'm not sure it's useful :)
Aug 03 19:16:53 <Mike_lifeguard> saper: Indeed, that's why the GCs have been putting so much effort into getting channel contacts to join #wikimedia-ops
Aug 03 19:17:00 <saper> are channel op responsibilities to be shared accross wiki-channels?
Aug 03 19:17:06 * krls-ca|absent (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/krls-ca) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:17:09 <seanw> For me, who started it origianlly, something I've always wanted to have with -ops is a way of standerdising our ops in terms of their respect of civility and assuming good faith etc.
Aug 03 19:17:18 <Mike_lifeguard> As well, it serves a purpose similar to #wikimedia-admin in that it can be a resource for ops who aren't 100% familiar with all the op tools
Aug 03 19:17:25 <seanw> Ops vary a lot. We can nudge people in better direcitons and seek out ops for the big channels if we get to know them in -ops.
Aug 03 19:17:28 * AzaToth (n=azatoth@wikipedia/AzaToth) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:17:29 <saper> Mike_lifeguard: well but if I need help on channel X and the same happends on channel Y ops from #Y won't be able to help me on #X
Aug 03 19:17:41 <Prodego> saper: and that happens a lot
Aug 03 19:17:50 <[MarkW]> So if I read this correct, -ops is just a general contact channel for users with problems on/with a channel?
Aug 03 19:17:59 <Prodego> a wikimedia channel
Aug 03 19:18:00 <kibble> saper, but there are also a lot of people who have ops in multiple channels
Aug 03 19:18:00 <Prodego> yea
Aug 03 19:18:03 <Rjd0060> Pretty much, [MarkW]
Aug 03 19:18:04 <seanw> Let us try to slim down the purposes of -ops
Aug 03 19:18:15 <saper> Prodego: if you don't have "shared ops" on many channels, then it's of little use
Aug 03 19:18:16 <OlEnglish> i thought chanbot handles problems
Aug 03 19:18:22 <OlEnglish> or chanserv
Aug 03 19:18:24 <Avruch> has there been a problem with the use of wikimedia-ops lately?
Aug 03 19:18:25 <OlEnglish> whatever
Aug 03 19:18:26 <kmccoy> #wikimedia-ops really functions in different ways depending on the channel(s) involved. For the big channels related to Wikimedia in general, or for the big channels related to the English Wikipedia, it's a place where many ops hang out and issues can be addressed and resolved outside of the channels, and things can be coordinated.
Aug 03 19:18:28 <seanw> OlEnglish, he is human controlled.
Aug 03 19:18:47 <OlEnglish> 3well ya
Aug 03 19:18:52 <seanw> Anything missing from this: 1) co-ordination in situations where multiple channels are affected 2) standardising op behaviour/procedure 3) place for appeals/help from usres, like #freenode
Aug 03 19:18:53 <OlEnglish> but automated
Aug 03 19:18:59 * Pathoschild (i=Jesse@wikimedia/Pathoschild) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:19:01 <seanw> OlEnglish, no, chanserv is entirely manual.
Aug 03 19:19:02 <kmccoy> For the other channels, users can be helped to find a proper contact to help them with their concern.
Aug 03 19:19:05 <kibble> OlEnglish, he responds to prompts by operators, see /msg chanserv help
Aug 03 19:19:14 * Stepro (n=Stepro@wikimedia/stepro) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:19:15 <Martinp23> she.
Aug 03 19:19:16 <OlEnglish> oh hrm
Aug 03 19:19:18 <Mike_lifeguard> seanw: No, that sums it up in my mind.
Aug 03 19:19:22 <OlEnglish> so it's not like other networks
Aug 03 19:19:27 <Mike_lifeguard> and yes, Martinp23 is right, ChanServ is a she
Aug 03 19:19:35 * Lademord (firstname.lastname@example.org) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings ("Leaving")
Aug 03 19:19:42 <charitwo> http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/User:ChanServ
Aug 03 19:19:45 <kmccoy> Has there been some problem with -ops lately?
Aug 03 19:19:47 <seanw> So, what the group contacts have been doing is encouraging ops to join -ops. Is this a worthwhile use of our time?
Aug 03 19:19:53 <Mike_lifeguard> OlEnglish: freenode is different from other networks in many ways. Feel free to read freenode.net
Aug 03 19:19:53 * Chabacano has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Aug 03 19:19:58 <FastLizard4> seanw: Definitely
Aug 03 19:20:00 <OlEnglish> yep
Aug 03 19:20:03 <charitwo> yes
Aug 03 19:20:05 <seanw> kmccoy, no, I brought it up becuse we've been fodscussing our time on it
Aug 03 19:20:07 <FastLizard4> But, perhaps -ops should be logged because of the stuff that goes on in there
Aug 03 19:20:08 <DaBPunkt> no
Aug 03 19:20:09 <saper> seanw: 2 & 3 are cabal functions, therefore optional, 1 requires shared op privileges to be really functional
Aug 03 19:20:12 <Until_It_Sleeps> She? No no no, Chanserv is a he.
Aug 03 19:20:13 <[MarkW]> seanw: Only if there's a way to ping users if a certain channel is involved
Aug 03 19:20:24 <seanw> [MarkW], what do you mean?
Aug 03 19:20:41 <OlEnglish> chanserv is asexual
Aug 03 19:20:49 <[MarkW]> I don't check the -ops channel every few minutes, and if I need - say - a #wikipedia-de op, I'd love if I could give a ping
Aug 03 19:20:54 <seanw> Let's put aside chanserv's gender guys :)
Aug 03 19:20:56 <[MarkW]> a bit like !sysop or something like that
Aug 03 19:21:04 <Dragonfly6-7> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanded_orgasm
Aug 03 19:21:08 <cubs197> What ARE we talking about? Chanserv's ability to -ops at the sex change wikipedia-admins channel? Really come one!
Aug 03 19:21:12 <Martinp23> there should be an invitiation to contacts to get their ops to do so. however, certain communities like -tech and #mediawiki tend to perhaps have a greater preference towards total autonomy so would refuse. What more can you do?
Aug 03 19:21:23 <AzaToth> though you need to separate onwiki ops and irc ops
Aug 03 19:21:23 <Mike_lifeguard> [MarkW]: that's easy to do, just stalk !.op@project - certainly something we can write up and implement
Aug 03 19:21:28 <^demon> Martinp23: Exactly.
Aug 03 19:21:32 <seanw> Hmm
Aug 03 19:21:33 <charitwo> Dragonfly6-7: that's not appropriate or on topic
Aug 03 19:21:45 <seanw> Could we perhaps have a bot that builds a database and pings based on !op-channel ro something in -ops ?
Aug 03 19:21:45 <[MarkW]> Mike_lifeguard: Exactly :-) As long as the stalkwords are monitored by a bot, not by all users individually
Aug 03 19:21:46 <Until_It_Sleeps> Dragonfly6-7...
Aug 03 19:21:47 <Mike_lifeguard> AzaToth: For the purposes of this channel, yes. There are channels where access is coordinated
Aug 03 19:21:50 <Fleetflame> Dragonfly6-7: ;-]
Aug 03 19:21:50 <kmccoy> -ops serves as a useful general goto channel for all wikimedia-related channels, because many ops from the more popular channels hang out there, and even for the channels which do not have representatives there, we generally have more skill with chanserv and such than the users who are experiencing problems.
Aug 03 19:21:51 <saper> seanw: maybe the problem could be solved easier if channel operator where there with their @, as other networks do, then it is obvious
Aug 03 19:21:54 <seanw> And then perhaps pings active users in the channel?
Aug 03 19:21:58 <Dragonfly6-7> I find it grotesquely interestnig
Aug 03 19:22:04 <^demon> Martinp23: It's not that I (or other ops) in those channels refuse necessarily...it's that -ops is of little utility to us
Aug 03 19:22:18 <Mike_lifeguard> [MarkW]: I'm not sure why that'd be necessary. Could be implemented, but most !.op calls aren't monitored by bot and serve us just fine.
Aug 03 19:22:25 <Prodego> saper: that is discouraged by freenode itself
Aug 03 19:22:30 <wimt> ASM has a per channel stalk list along those lines, though something better could be implemented.
Aug 03 19:22:33 <charitwo> seanw: AntiSpamMeta work in that fashion
Aug 03 19:22:33 <FastLizard4> seanw: Well, I just stalk [!]op and related keywords
Aug 03 19:22:37 <seanw> saper, it tends to be the case that they just arne't around at all.
Aug 03 19:22:38 <Mike_lifeguard> saper: ops are generally voiced in -ops, yes
Aug 03 19:22:39 <kibble> ^demon, except when people are banned from #wikimedia-tech for asking why the server is down and have no idea what's going on
Aug 03 19:22:44 <saper> kmccoy: but then it's a kind of -help function
Aug 03 19:22:47 <seanw> If we could automate this fully it would be great
Aug 03 19:22:54 <^demon> +kibble: Heh, true :P
Aug 03 19:22:56 <domas> kibble: examples?
Aug 03 19:22:58 <Prodego> ^demon: or for using !log which has no access list
Aug 03 19:22:59 <OlEnglish> just make it like efnet complete anarachy
Aug 03 19:23:00 <domas> I ban people only when they're annoying
Aug 03 19:23:04 <seanw> So, you go !op-project-language or whatever, and it automatically works out which ops are online, and pings them
Aug 03 19:23:06 <OlEnglish> anarchy
Aug 03 19:23:06 <Until_It_Sleeps> I have a question. Does anyone have, say, an estimate as to when the cloak requesting system will be back up?
Aug 03 19:23:10 <seanw> Anyone willing to code this for us? :)
Aug 03 19:23:12 <saper> Prodego: this is the blanket channel policy, we should be able to have our own for the purpose of handling e.g. large channels
Aug 03 19:23:17 <^demon> domas: Best ban policy ever.
Aug 03 19:23:17 <seanw> Until_It_Sleeps, off-topic, but in theory 5th August.
Aug 03 19:23:31 <kibble> domas, when you have a bunch of people joining and all asking the same question, I can see how that would be annoying.
Aug 03 19:23:36 <Mike_lifeguard> seanw: that'd be nice, but not critical... I can theoretically do it
Aug 03 19:23:39 <domas> *shrug*, usually we have +m then
Aug 03 19:23:40 <kmccoy> saper, yes, it serves a help function.
Aug 03 19:23:48 <domas> I don't remember when I banned someone for asking the question why anything is wrong
Aug 03 19:23:51 <Prodego> #wikimedia-tech is not well run
Aug 03 19:23:58 <Prodego> but lets put that aside
Aug 03 19:24:00 * seanw sets mode +m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:24:06 <seanw> Okay guys, I think we should move on.
Aug 03 19:24:12 <seanw> We've got some useful stuff out of that.
Aug 03 19:24:26 <seanw> The GCs will look into the useful bits.
Aug 03 19:24:34 <seanw> But that swas an extremely vague topic and I apologise :)
Aug 03 19:24:50 <seanw> Secondly then we have "Success (or otherwise) of lines of communication to contacts (irc-contacts[-owner]@ being main one at present)" <-- this is a *lot* more concrete
Aug 03 19:25:04 <dungodung> and the magnitude of messages was overwhelming, at least for me
Aug 03 19:25:05 * Japsu (i=santtu@wikipedia/Japsu) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:25:19 <seanw> I shall explain this.
Aug 03 19:25:27 * Prodego has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
Aug 03 19:25:48 <seanw> At the moment, the main adversitsed method to contact us is to either PM us on IRC or to e-mail email@example.com
Aug 03 19:25:52 * Prodebot (n=epsy@wikipedia/Prodego) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:26:05 <seanw> Is this good enough? Does anyone have any alternative suggestions?
Aug 03 19:26:15 <dungodung> maybe OTRS queue?
Aug 03 19:26:25 <seanw> Before we unmdoerate for this one, Martinp23 has asked about hwo many users have contacted us through this method.
Aug 03 19:26:42 * Fleetflame has quit (Client Quit)
Aug 03 19:26:48 <seanw> The answer is basically about three, iirc, I can search my inbox after meeting if more information is required.
Aug 03 19:27:14 <seanw> And secondly, please try to keep more on-topic this time, let's try to get more done :)
Aug 03 19:27:21 <seanw> [19:28:22] <[MarkW]> seanw: irc-contacts is for all ops or just for you, Rjd0060, kibble, etc?
Aug 03 19:27:24 * martinp23_ (i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:27:43 <seanw> irc-contacts points at a list full of lots of channel contacts plus the GCs, irc-contacts-owner comes to just kibble dungodung Rjd0060 and I
Aug 03 19:27:47 <seanw> Okay then, here we go.
Aug 03 19:27:49 * seanw sets mode -m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:27:50 * Prodebot is now known as elapse
Aug 03 19:27:51 <^demon> seanw: My question to you from this is: do you see people not getting helped who could have been helped if there was a better (doesn't matter what) method of communicating with the contacts?
Aug 03 19:27:56 <Mike_lifeguard> I really don't think there is enough volume to warrant a whole OTRS queue. As well, that'd be a rapprochement of the IRC community and the Foundation, which has always been an explicitly-stated non-goal
Aug 03 19:27:59 * Prodego (n=Prodego@wikipedia/Prodego) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:28:00 <cubs197> and here it goes
Aug 03 19:28:02 <Rjd0060> I agree with Mike_lifeguard
Aug 03 19:28:07 <^demon> Same
Aug 03 19:28:17 <elapse> me too
Aug 03 19:28:18 <Rjd0060> Informal is best and the mailing list works
Aug 03 19:28:19 <martinp23_> yes
Aug 03 19:28:26 <martinp23_> irc should be the main point of contact really anyway
Aug 03 19:28:26 <[MarkW]> Mike_lifeguard: apart from that, I don't think it's worth the effort to create all those otrs-accounts :P
Aug 03 19:28:31 <martinp23_> given as you are irc group contacts ;)
Aug 03 19:28:44 <kmccoy> The only response I see is "that's an issue for the channel contacts".
Aug 03 19:28:45 <seanw> ^demon, no, otherwise we'd just go and help them - the thing is, we don't know about everyone, which is why we're asking everyone.
Aug 03 19:28:52 <charitwo> IRC is the best method imo, use of wiki, email, etc aren't ideal for this kind of thing
Aug 03 19:28:53 <dungodung> martinp23_: but irc is synchronous.
Aug 03 19:28:56 <Mike_lifeguard> I'm not sure there is much problem with communication these days, now that we have more & more active GCs
Aug 03 19:28:56 <kibble> [MarkW], we all already have OTRS accounts :-)
Aug 03 19:29:07 * cubs197 is now known as c197|away
Aug 03 19:29:08 <Avruch> as long as you have GCs who are regularly available, then there should be no reason to entangle IRC with OTRS
Aug 03 19:29:24 <[MarkW]> kibble: If you're sure: Great!
Aug 03 19:29:25 <seanw> Basically what we're asking is: does anyone feel that they, or others they know, have had difficulty getting help from us?
Aug 03 19:29:27 <FastLizard4> Should there be a mailing lists for all ops in general?
Aug 03 19:29:30 <seanw> [MarkW], confirmed, we all do.
Aug 03 19:29:32 <FastLizard4> In addition to the GC list?
Aug 03 19:29:42 <AzaToth> I think the problem basically lies in which, if not all channels are/should be handled by you/them
Aug 03 19:29:49 <[MarkW]> seanw: Good, so the only question is if there's an advantage to a general ML? I don't think so
Aug 03 19:29:54 <Avruch> Since the new GCs were added, the ability to get ahold of one has much improved
Aug 03 19:30:01 <[MarkW]> in a maillist everybody receives e-mail, in OTRS some people might not
Aug 03 19:30:22 <elapse> seanw: well now it is much better then before
Aug 03 19:30:22 <dungodung> by OTRS, I was aiming at archive-ability, not formality
Aug 03 19:30:22 <seanw> I think internally, speaking as one of the people on the other end, the mailing list setup we have now works very well for us.
Aug 03 19:30:33 <elapse> I'm not sure that is due to the mailing list though
Aug 03 19:30:35 <AzaToth> an user on #wikipedia might be unable to directly figure out that you should search for wikimedia to get in contact
Aug 03 19:30:42 <Mike_lifeguard> seanw: until the new GCs were in place, the answer was a huge red blinking "YES"... better these days
Aug 03 19:30:51 <seanw> Mike_lifeguard, *nods*
Aug 03 19:31:11 <elapse> I think Mike_lifeguard summarizes it well
Aug 03 19:31:11 * palnatoke (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:31:11 <AzaToth> thus an otrs queue would be preferable as it allready have an network setup around the projects
Aug 03 19:31:14 <I_am_Keegan> Agreed, after two years I got my cloak fixed
Aug 03 19:31:24 <seanw> AzaToth, how is it different from the POV of a user?
Aug 03 19:31:33 <Rjd0060> I_am_Keegan: ;)
Aug 03 19:31:35 <seanw> OTRS == mailing list for them, it's just an e-mail address they send stuff to.
Aug 03 19:31:39 * Tiptoety is now known as Tiptoety|busy
Aug 03 19:31:40 * I_am_Keegan tips cap
Aug 03 19:32:05 <[MarkW]> seanw: I'm not sure if ops of low-traffic channels will check the otrs-queue as often as they'll check their own inbox :P
Aug 03 19:32:11 <FastLizard4> Well, what about an OTRS queue for all ops?
Aug 03 19:32:17 <AzaToth> seanw: the user might dig via the normal contact information on the local wiki
Aug 03 19:32:19 <elapse> [MarkW]: this if for the group contacts
Aug 03 19:32:21 <kibble> [MarkW], we're not talking about ops
Aug 03 19:32:27 <seanw> AzaToth, OTRS has a forward button!
Aug 03 19:32:28 <[MarkW]> gees
Aug 03 19:32:30 <lyzzy> seanw: it's not that there are difficulties to reach you. The difficulty is that only a few people know that you (GC) exist
Aug 03 19:32:39 <seanw> lyzzy, right. How can we fix that?
Aug 03 19:32:44 <kibble> channel and group contacts, because you're right: ops shouldn't have to check an OTRRS queue or their inboxes for that
Aug 03 19:32:54 <Mike_lifeguard> FastLizard4: OTRS isn't for that kind of thing, really. It's generally a bad idea.
Aug 03 19:32:58 <elapse> that's ok though, because the GCs don't do much but cloaks
Aug 03 19:32:59 <[MarkW]> kibble: I was thinking it was strange all ops had otrs access :P
Aug 03 19:33:02 <AzaToth> seanw: yea, meant that a person might not look for an mailing list address to find contact info
Aug 03 19:33:05 <elapse> if they are getting involved it is a special case
Aug 03 19:33:13 <kibble> [MarkW], :D
Aug 03 19:33:31 <kibble> elapse, we try to leave channel management to the ops/contacts, yes
Aug 03 19:33:33 <AzaToth> erm, are we just talking about cloak contacts? or contacts in general?
Aug 03 19:33:35 <seanw> Okay, so it seems among the IRC regulars in here, people find us contatable.
Aug 03 19:33:38 <seanw> How can we spread this to everyone else?
Aug 03 19:33:38 <Vito_away> an otrs queue for ops?
Aug 03 19:33:47 <guillom> not needed
Aug 03 19:33:47 <kibble> AzaToth, they're the same people, aren't they?
Aug 03 19:33:49 * Darren23 (email@example.com) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:33:49 <seanw> AzaToth, primarily group contacts and how contactable they are.
Aug 03 19:33:52 <elapse> kibble: exactly what I am saying :)
Aug 03 19:33:55 <AzaToth> ok
Aug 03 19:34:00 <Mike_lifeguard> Vito_away: numerous problems with that, generally a bad idea
Aug 03 19:34:08 <kibble> elapse, just reiterating it so no one thinks we're going to take over their channel ;-)
Aug 03 19:34:12 <Vito_away> Mike_lifeguard: indeed
Aug 03 19:34:16 <Vito_away> Mike_lifeguard: better a wiki
Aug 03 19:34:19 <AzaToth> kibble: there are the same people on #mediawiki and #wikimedia-tech ...
Aug 03 19:34:34 <kmccoy> seanw, that's what #wikimedia-ops is for. If people are having a problem, they should be told to go to #wikimedia-ops, and one of the things they can be told there is how to contact people if that's what they need to do.
Aug 03 19:34:36 <Avruch> if the problem is publicity for a way to contact GCs/ops, and folks not knowing about the mailing list, then OTRS won't help - publicity solutions should be easy to identify
Aug 03 19:34:41 <lyzzy> seanw: with a little introduction of you and your work on foundation-l perhaps
Aug 03 19:34:42 <kibble> AzaToth, ah, I see what you're saying. channel contacts vs. group contacts
Aug 03 19:34:50 <AzaToth> yea
Aug 03 19:34:55 <I_am_Keegan> Oo, a wiki, I like that idea
Aug 03 19:34:58 <[MarkW]> So, correct that we want an OTRS queue+mailaddress for GC's and to broadcast their existense more?
Aug 03 19:35:03 <Prodego> Avruch: 99% of people don't need the group contacts
Aug 03 19:35:12 <kibble> [MarkW], nope, we decided mailign list is fine
Aug 03 19:35:17 <Mike_lifeguard> [MarkW]: no, we do not want an OTRS queue
Aug 03 19:35:21 <seanw> lyzzy, I post GC stuff to that list every few months, do you think it is just incomprehensible to most?
Aug 03 19:35:26 <Vito_away> Mike_lifeguard: otrs needs peope to be identified, too much traffic...naaaaaaaaa
Aug 03 19:35:27 <DaBPunkt> Prodego: nod
Aug 03 19:35:28 <[MarkW]> Why am I missing all this :P
Aug 03 19:35:32 * seanw sets mode +m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:35:38 <seanw> Right guys stop fo ra sec.
Aug 03 19:35:44 <seanw> Let me put to rest a few things that are circulating :)
Aug 03 19:35:51 * gdonato (n=GDonato@wikimedia/GDonato) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:36:19 <seanw> The GCs decided a good while ago that OTRS is not the way to go for contacting us because of the issue of keeping IRC and Wikimedia seperate.
Aug 03 19:36:38 <seanw> We have a mailing list for contacting us. The question we are now discussing is a) do we need to make more people aware we exist? b) if so, how?
Aug 03 19:36:46 <seanw> Right go for it.
Aug 03 19:36:48 * seanw sets mode -m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:36:54 <Prodego> why do people need to know you exist?
Aug 03 19:36:57 * harej (n=chatzill@wikipedia/MessedRocker) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:37:03 <kmccoy> seanw, #wikimedia-ops can do most of the awareness-creating for those few users who need it.
Aug 03 19:37:05 <OlEnglish> how? watchlist announcements
Aug 03 19:37:06 <Prodego> if they need help, they can go to -ops
Aug 03 19:37:07 * OverlordQ (i=ZOMG@wikipedia/OverlordQ) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:37:09 <Avruch> for most reasons, people don't really need the GCs
Aug 03 19:37:09 <Prodego> and those people know
Aug 03 19:37:19 <kibble> Prodego has a really good point, btw
Aug 03 19:37:25 <^demon> seanw: Keep it well advertised to those who need it, but don't encourage people to send to it for every single IRC question they have.
Aug 03 19:37:30 <kibble> for most issues, -ops is all you need
Aug 03 19:37:31 <Avruch> if you want to publicize your existence more, periodic notices in the topic or channel would work
Aug 03 19:37:31 * Vito_away is now known as Vito
Aug 03 19:37:35 <martinp23_> (continuing from what i was saying before the +m) and then let ops/cc s sprea the word as it becomes necessary for people to contact you
Aug 03 19:37:39 <werdan7> The average user shouldn't, and probably doesn't, care
Aug 03 19:37:45 <Avruch> or put it in the topic in -ops
Aug 03 19:37:54 <I_am_Keegan> agree with werdan7
Aug 03 19:38:03 <martinp23_> really people should indeed be speaking to the ops/channel contacts about issues
Aug 03 19:38:08 <martinp23_> they're the ones then escalating it to you
Aug 03 19:38:17 <martinp23_> the only time you probably talk to new users is for cloaks!
Aug 03 19:38:21 <Mike_lifeguard> ^demon: exactly - users almost never need the GCs (with the exception of cloaks, which are handled separately)
Aug 03 19:38:26 <seanw> I personally agree with this view, was just exploring lyzzy's point some more.
Aug 03 19:38:26 <martinp23_> (or some unsolvable dispute)
Aug 03 19:38:40 <seanw> To me, as long as all of our ops are good at escalating when appropriate, we're good.
Aug 03 19:38:46 <OlEnglish> sorry, what are cloaks?
Aug 03 19:38:51 <Mike_lifeguard> I don't think it's terribly important that this be plastered all over the place. #wikimedia-ops is probably way more helpful to most users than actually contacting the GCs
Aug 03 19:38:54 <seanw> OlEnglish, see IRC cloaks
Aug 03 19:39:08 <seanw> So maybe we need to advertise #wikimedia-ops more Mike_lifeguard?
Aug 03 19:39:12 <Rjd0060> And really, we don't want to be involved in everything on a channel level. :)
Aug 03 19:39:28 <Mike_lifeguard> Sure, that's reasonable.
Aug 03 19:39:29 <OlEnglish> oh hostmask
Aug 03 19:39:33 * OverlordQ (i=ZOMG@wikipedia/OverlordQ) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:39:35 <Rjd0060> That would just cause issues and we trust that the channel contacts and ops are handing things appropriately
Aug 03 19:39:41 <Avruch> advertising -ops more makes sense, if its to be useful as an appeal venue
Aug 03 19:39:51 * mpeel|Poland (n=mpeel@wikipedia/Mike-Peel) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:40:03 <seanw> Okay - perhaps we should try to blast #wikimedia-ops to the top of all our IRC pages as the IRC help channel, and perhaps write to foundation-l about it as lyzzy suggests.
Aug 03 19:40:04 <Mike_lifeguard> Yep, /topic and/or entrymsg would be good ad space, where appropriate
Aug 03 19:40:15 <AzaToth> I think #wikimedia-ops should be renamed to #wikimedia-irc to make it more identifiable that it's IRC and not WIKI
Aug 03 19:40:27 <seanw> Oh dear AzaToth hahaha
Aug 03 19:40:29 <charitwo> i disagree
Aug 03 19:40:30 <dungodung> -irc forwards to -ops
Aug 03 19:40:30 <Prodego> well that isn't a bad idea
Aug 03 19:40:31 <seanw> We recently shutdown -irc :)
Aug 03 19:40:40 <Rjd0060> I actually agree with Az1568
Aug 03 19:40:40 <AzaToth> :-P
Aug 03 19:40:41 <kibble> Mike_lifeguard, it's that way already for a lot of the "bigger channels", iirc
Aug 03 19:40:42 <Rjd0060> * AzaToth
Aug 03 19:40:45 <Prodego> I actually think -irc is a better name
Aug 03 19:40:46 <^demon> I figured using an IRC client was a givaway :P
Aug 03 19:40:47 <Mike_lifeguard> Well, we clearly want only one or the other. The name isn't particularly important in my view
Aug 03 19:40:50 <Prodego> it isn't juts for ops
Aug 03 19:40:52 <kmccoy> #wikimedia-ops should be the first point of contact for all meta issues regarding IRC. I think AzaToth's point is a good one, too, that maybe it should be -irc.
Aug 03 19:40:53 * Willking1979 (n=williamc@wikipedia/willking1979) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:40:53 <Prodego> just*
Aug 03 19:40:54 <Rjd0060> It would eliminate the confusion, forst off
Aug 03 19:40:56 <Rjd0060> *first
Aug 03 19:41:04 <AzaToth> yea
Aug 03 19:41:06 <seanw> Personally, I like -ops because it is a standard name across freenode for an IRC meta-channel
Aug 03 19:41:10 <martinp23_> I disagree with AzaToth I'm afraid.
Aug 03 19:41:12 * kibble agrees with seanw
Aug 03 19:41:18 <charitwo> i third that
Aug 03 19:41:19 <Rjd0060> We can forward the other way, seanw
Aug 03 19:41:21 <martinp23_> The standard is indeed -ops and people with any irc experience expect to see it.
Aug 03 19:41:23 <Rjd0060> so that's not the issue
Aug 03 19:41:26 <AzaToth> seanw: but for wiki people, and ops is rather ambigious
Aug 03 19:41:27 <Prodego> 1) less people thinking it is for wiki ops 2) it is clear it is not just for ops
Aug 03 19:41:33 <Fabexplosive> I think -ops is better than -irc
Aug 03 19:41:40 <Avruch> if there isn't much carryover between the wikimedia community and the freenode community, we don't really need to follow the freenode custom do we?
Aug 03 19:41:42 <martinp23_> similarly people who are on irc and read the topic of -ops should really know what it is for.
Aug 03 19:41:43 <AzaToth> -irc-ops then?
Aug 03 19:41:45 <saper> martinp23_: not really, there is no such thing on IRCnet for example
Aug 03 19:41:47 <Fabexplosive> and, I agree with sean
Aug 03 19:42:03 <martinp23_> (and people who don't know that will still join -ops and be forwarded to -irc and not realise and still ask the inane questions)
Aug 03 19:42:04 <DaBPunkt> AzaToth: the name is allready way to long...
Aug 03 19:42:07 <saper> AzaToth: suggests "ircops" == server operators
Aug 03 19:42:08 <seanw> Okay - is this important, given that they are both forwarded?
Aug 03 19:42:08 * kibble isn't thinking this is exactly on-topic guys
Aug 03 19:42:11 <Dragonfly6-7> it will be impossible
Aug 03 19:42:22 <seanw> There is no clear consensus either way, you can get to the channel with both names, so let's leave it.
Aug 03 19:42:23 <Avruch> seanw: no ;p
Aug 03 19:42:29 <martinp23_> saper: yeah sorry, I'm speaking rather too broadly there.
Aug 03 19:42:33 <Avruch> er, no it isn't important, sure lets leave it
Aug 03 19:42:46 <seanw> So I think we hsould move on unless anyone else has closing comments.
Aug 03 19:42:48 <AzaToth> kibble: for people to understand which channel to join for irc related issues are on topic imo
Aug 03 19:42:54 <saper> martinp23_: frankly I don't believe lots of users are really into freenode policies and customes
Aug 03 19:42:57 <Prodego> by all means, lets finish this
Aug 03 19:42:59 <seanw> Again, I feel we've got something out of this topic, suggestions to work with.
Aug 03 19:43:13 * seanw sets mode +m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:43:16 * seanw sets mode -m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:43:19 <kmccoy> Either way, the metaIRC channel should be the first point of contact for all concerns. Maybe we need to put an email address in the topic as an alternative point of contact.
Aug 03 19:43:21 <seanw> [19:44:37] <saper> seanw: I have a suggestio
Aug 03 19:43:23 <seanw> Shoot saper :)
Aug 03 19:43:41 <Prodego> kmccoy: channel ops would be the first point of contact
Aug 03 19:43:50 <Vito> +1
Aug 03 19:43:53 <seanw> kmccoy, yes and no, we don't want to end up with masses of mail to that address as then we end up being ops everywhere.
Aug 03 19:44:06 <saper> I think that it would help to have a sample issues on the agenda, i.e. the problems we are trying to solve. For example, many "cross-wiki" issues are really en-language issues, etc. so maybe we generalize a bit
Aug 03 19:44:20 <AzaToth> actually first time I heard about #wikimedia-ops I thought it was a meta channel for ops from all wikis
Aug 03 19:44:29 <seanw> AzaToth, which is what it is.
Aug 03 19:44:38 <AzaToth> seanw: wiki ops
Aug 03 19:44:40 <Prodego> except he means ops as admins
Aug 03 19:44:42 <dungodung> sysops
Aug 03 19:44:42 <OlEnglish> for administrators only?
Aug 03 19:44:45 <saper> and inane user speaking some strange language will not get any help on an en-speaking -ops channel
Aug 03 19:44:46 <Prodego> its a common mistake
Aug 03 19:44:47 <kibble> saper, people have come to the channel after they were banned from, say #wikipedia-nl
Aug 03 19:44:47 <seanw> oic
Aug 03 19:44:49 * Plushy has quit (Connection timed out)
Aug 03 19:44:50 <kibble> and they have no idea what to do
Aug 03 19:45:01 <Mentifisto> I never heard sysops called ops on wp
Aug 03 19:45:12 <AzaToth> sys-ops
Aug 03 19:45:14 <seanw> Languages for us are a *major* problem as contacts.
Aug 03 19:45:14 * GrooveDog (n=GrooveDo@wnpgmb1308w-ad04-53-12.dynamic.mts.net) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:45:14 <dungodung> maybe in some communities they are
Aug 03 19:45:15 <kibble> Mentifisto, it depends on the language and the cultural background
Aug 03 19:45:24 <saper> kibble: shouldn't wiki page explain who is the nl contact?
Aug 03 19:45:26 * Willking1979 (n=williamc@wikipedia/willking1979) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:45:26 <Mike_lifeguard> Mentifisto: old-school people do use "ops" and I facepalm every time
Aug 03 19:45:28 <seanw> We basically have no contact with, for example, the japanese wikipedia irc community.
Aug 03 19:45:30 <kibble> saper, and I wuldn't say that #wikimedia-ops is an en-speaking channel
Aug 03 19:45:41 <Prodego> it isn't always
Aug 03 19:45:42 <martinp23_> the topic of -ops is fairly clear to me. Perhaps it could be made more clear that it is about IRC, not wiki.
Aug 03 19:45:42 <OlEnglish> there needs to be a better distinction between wikimedia admins and IRC ops
Aug 03 19:45:43 <seanw> The only way to deal with this is to try to get more people in there, I guess.
Aug 03 19:45:46 <martinp23_> (as this seems to be the issue?)
Aug 03 19:45:53 <domas> in my lingo -ops means 'operations'
Aug 03 19:45:54 <kibble> saper, why would there be a wiki page? it's irc, they just do /msg chanserv info #wikipedia-nl
Aug 03 19:46:01 <Prodego> the issue is that people don't read the topic
Aug 03 19:46:02 <kmccoy> saper, users who come into -ops speaking a strange language will get as much help as we can possibly give them. Users speaking other languages aren't simply brushed off, we do whatever we can to direct them to the right place or to find a translator or whatever.
Aug 03 19:46:05 <domas> which is where site-admins would discuss site uptime and such
Aug 03 19:46:07 * jeblad (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:46:08 <saper> kibble: hell if I know that command ...
Aug 03 19:46:23 * seanw sets mode +m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:46:23 <kibble> kmccoy, yes and there's also quite a few people in those channels who speak other languages
Aug 03 19:46:25 <Rjd0060> saper: thats why you go to #wikimedia-ops and ask for help
Aug 03 19:46:27 <Rjd0060> :)
Aug 03 19:46:28 <seanw> Okay guys we really do need to move on.
Aug 03 19:46:37 <seanw> That was useful.
Aug 03 19:46:49 <seanw> The next item is from harej, so I will invite him to introduce it to us.
Aug 03 19:46:58 <seanw> er
Aug 03 19:46:59 <seanw> Where'd he go, sec
Aug 03 19:47:15 <kibble> he signed off
Aug 03 19:47:21 <seanw> Oh okay.
Aug 03 19:47:30 <kibble> no, he changed his nick and left this channel. sorry :-)
Aug 03 19:47:34 <seanw> We can bring him back later.
Aug 03 19:47:36 <seanw> Let's move on for now.
Aug 03 19:47:54 <seanw> I am going to rearrange the topic order to get rid of quick stuff first.
Aug 03 19:48:10 <seanw> Someone has asked about developer cloaks, I presume they refer to mediawiki/ cloaks
Aug 03 19:48:10 <dungodung> I suggest "..."
Aug 03 19:48:27 <kibble> :)
Aug 03 19:48:32 <seanw> The only reason these are not active is the cloak system not supporting them.
Aug 03 19:48:53 <seanw> It is being rewritten, and we are going to add functionality to verify someone's SVN commit access to see if they should get a mediawiki/ cloak.
Aug 03 19:48:55 <Rjd0060> ^demon: if you're not looking ^
Aug 03 19:49:00 * emijrp has quit (Client Quit)
Aug 03 19:49:25 <seanw> So, does anyone have anytning to say or can we put this aside as "being sorted"?
Aug 03 19:49:26 * Isha has quit (Client Quit)
Aug 03 19:49:30 <seanw> Speak up if you do, I will see you.
Aug 03 19:49:36 * seanw gives voice to ^demon
Aug 03 19:49:49 <seanw> [19:51:00] <Avruch> is there a functional difference between the cloaks, or a regular need to identify developers on IRC?
Aug 03 19:50:03 <seanw> No there isn't, it's just that some develoeprs have asked us for them, and we don't see why they can't have them.
Aug 03 19:50:09 <kibble> Avruch, afaik, it's just because they prefer to be associated with mediawiki :-)
Aug 03 19:50:13 * enhydra has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Aug 03 19:50:22 <^demon> Automating checking of commit access is touchy, since not all commit access people commit their USERINFO file (which would be easier way to verify). Simply checking with any active dev should be enough to verify :)
Aug 03 19:50:30 * enhydra (i=kalan@wikimedia/Kalan) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:50:34 <Rjd0060> similar to how you want to be identified as "unaffiliated", Avruch
Aug 03 19:50:50 <Rjd0060> No real "need" for it. :)
Aug 03 19:50:58 <seanw> Or any of our claoks really.
Aug 03 19:51:05 <seanw> Okay guys this was a minor point.
Aug 03 19:51:13 <seanw> There are logistics to work out, but it is ocming, so let'#s move on.
Aug 03 19:51:20 * seanw removes voice from ^demon
Aug 03 19:51:37 * ChanServ removes voice from worby
Aug 03 19:51:41 <Rjd0060> seanw:
Aug 03 19:51:48 <Rjd0060> never mind - go ahead
Aug 03 19:51:56 <seanw> Our next topic, then, is from kmccoy regarding good procedures for emergencies.
Aug 03 19:51:58 * seanw gives voice to kibble
Aug 03 19:52:02 * seanw gives voice to kmccoy
Aug 03 19:52:11 <seanw> It would be good if you could introduce this please kmccoy
Aug 03 19:52:13 <kmccoy> Ooh, hey.
Aug 03 19:52:33 <kmccoy> Okay, well, it seems to me that when the projects go down, there's sort of a mass chaos through the various channels...
Aug 03 19:52:40 <kmccoy> At least, the channels that I'm in.
Aug 03 19:53:15 <kmccoy> And it gets frustrating for everyone, because some people are directed to #wikipedia, some naturally go to -en or their various language channels, some go to -tech, etc.
Aug 03 19:53:34 <kmccoy> -tech starts to get an influx of people who don't bother to read the topic, so they ask the same questions or report the same errors.
Aug 03 19:54:06 <kmccoy> Which then irritates some of the hard-working developers in -tech.
Aug 03 19:54:35 <dungodung> I think -tech was moderated a few times back in the day
Aug 03 19:54:40 <kmccoy> I think a nicer system is for the people who know what's going on (the devs in -tech) to let us (channel operators) know what's going on... which they do, generally, by talking about it in ops.
Aug 03 19:54:42 * seanw gives voice to domas
Aug 03 19:54:47 <seanw> 19:55:58] <domas> what people don't get about -tech, is that it is 'working room', not a chatter place
Aug 03 19:54:59 <seanw> Let#'s have input from our resident dev
Aug 03 19:55:04 <kmccoy> And then channel ops can alter our topics as appropriate to let the bulk of users know what's going on.
Aug 03 19:55:17 <domas> we moderate -tech to sustain a proper flow of information there
Aug 03 19:55:20 <kmccoy> So then, ideally, we can weed out the noise from -tech for the devs.
Aug 03 19:55:26 <kmccoy> Sure, thanks. :)
Aug 03 19:55:28 <domas> and...
Aug 03 19:55:30 <Rjd0060> Yeah, domas - you're right. Especially when wikis are down. But somebody needs to be able to share that info with them - so perhaps +m and regular notices so that people know what's going on would be beneficial
Aug 03 19:55:41 <kibble> kmccoy, we could have a special !word :) !omgwikidown, and ops can stalk that
Aug 03 19:55:42 <dungodung> or regular topic updates
Aug 03 19:55:43 <domas> we're reporting stuff regularly, via !log messages especially
Aug 03 19:55:58 <domas> and... we actually read bot notices on that channel
Aug 03 19:56:03 <seanw> [19:57:13] <martinp23_> As exciting as it is for all of us when it happens, can I simply suggest that the devs remove the reference to #wikipedia from the "the sites are down" message? And instead do the work themselves of creating a status page that they keep up to date (make and irc bot to do it or something)
Aug 03 19:56:05 <Rjd0060> (not a notice from you, or a tech, as you're busy - of course)
Aug 03 19:56:34 <domas> we still have #wikipedia references? they probably shouldn't be there, thats true
Aug 03 19:56:44 <seanw> domas, perhaps you could put that on your todo list :)
Aug 03 19:56:51 <domas> perhaps!
Aug 03 19:56:55 <Rjd0060> Yeah, they're there - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/& even
Aug 03 19:56:57 <kibble> domas, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/&
Aug 03 19:57:00 <kibble> Rjd0060, jinx
Aug 03 19:57:03 * seanw should perhaps file a bug report
Aug 03 19:57:09 <domas> yup, please do
Aug 03 19:57:26 * seanw didn't know about that amp thing
Aug 03 19:57:31 <kmccoy> I think that directing people to #wikipedia is not a bad thing. It's a good way of distributing real-time information, and when it gets crazy, it's easy enough to +m. I'd just like to see the ops of #wikipedia be able to give clearer information to the horde of users.
Aug 03 19:57:34 <seanw> Okay then, I shall add that bug to my todo list :)
Aug 03 19:57:44 <seanw> Let's open this one up. Please try to stay on-topic.
Aug 03 19:57:48 * seanw sets mode -m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:57:53 * TommyG (email@example.com) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 19:58:02 <domas> one of issues is simply that once we know what is happening, we may be already fixing that
Aug 03 19:58:08 <kibble> kmccoy, we've also gotten better
Aug 03 19:58:08 <GrooveDog> Would setting an ENTRYMSG through ChanServ on -tech be helpful in anyway?
Aug 03 19:58:11 <I_am_Keegan> I_am_Keegan> The issue is that when a wiki goes down, it points them to IRC. There are then a vast number of non-users of IRC who are either casual readers or regular editors that pop into the channel
Aug 03 19:58:12 <Romaine> perhaps each language can direct to their on chat?
Aug 03 19:58:13 <Prodego> kmccoy: how would you propose making the ops give clearer information?
Aug 03 19:58:14 <Mentifisto> incidentally, enwiki seems down right now
Aug 03 19:58:16 <Mike_lifeguard> kmccoy: Remember how we run more than just Wikipedia projects?
Aug 03 19:58:16 <kibble> the ops has been known to just ban people
Aug 03 19:58:18 <Prodego> kmccoy: they can only say what they know
Aug 03 19:58:20 <Aqwis> #wikimedia-downtime?
Aug 03 19:58:21 <saper> kmccoy: they we do it on wikipedia-pl that more savvy people sit on -tech and calm users on the regular channel if needed
Aug 03 19:58:22 <kibble> GrooveDog, I don't think so, people don't really read it
Aug 03 19:58:22 <Brownout> iirc someone opened a bug request, closed as wontfix
Aug 03 19:58:34 <kibble> Romaine, a few already do that
Aug 03 19:58:36 <AzaToth> perhaps a way for techies to get out information to all wikimedia channels topic in one command?
Aug 03 19:58:38 <Until_It_Sleeps> Perhaps it could direct to a specific downtime channel or something?
Aug 03 19:58:45 <Until_It_Sleeps> Like Aqwis's suggestion.
Aug 03 19:58:46 <seanw> AzaToth, makes a good suggestion
Aug 03 19:58:48 <GrooveDog> kibble: Yeah, but an ENTRYMSG will at least get more attention then a topic.
Aug 03 19:58:48 <kmccoy> saper, indeed, that's how I do it when I'm around for -en.
Aug 03 19:58:49 <Mike_lifeguard> I suspect a central channel for such things would be better handled than the current hodge-podge ("hodge-podge" a word I've never really had the opportunity to use before)
Aug 03 19:58:53 <I_am_Keegan> Someone write emergencybot to autoreply to keywords would be my suggestion.
Aug 03 19:58:57 <kmccoy> Prodego, just like saper said.
Aug 03 19:59:01 <Dragonfly6-7> AzaToth - that won't stop people from creating new channels at will
Aug 03 19:59:02 <Prodego> seanw: that sort of bot would be useful to other bots
Aug 03 19:59:04 <kibble> GrooveDog, personally, I ignore entry messages :-)
Aug 03 19:59:04 <saper> kmccoy: so there's not much you can do except for +m
Aug 03 19:59:10 <Prodego> err, useful for other things
Aug 03 19:59:10 <Mike_lifeguard> saper: Yes, I generally try to do that for channels I'm in
Aug 03 19:59:10 <AzaToth> Dragonfly6-7: uh?
Aug 03 19:59:20 <GrooveDog> kibble: Awe. In that case, probably not helpful. ;-D
Aug 03 19:59:22 * Until_It_Sleeps will be right back.
Aug 03 19:59:23 <Mike_lifeguard> saper: That's specifically what I meant by discouraging users from going to -tech
Aug 03 19:59:26 * Until_It_Sleeps is now known as UIS|Away
Aug 03 19:59:33 <domas> saper: you can follow tech talk
Aug 03 19:59:40 <kmccoy> saper, I mostly just wanted this to be said outloud.
Aug 03 19:59:41 <domas> if it is on +m, it means we're actively working on problem :)
Aug 03 19:59:51 <OlEnglish> motd
Aug 03 19:59:54 <seanw> It feels to me as if we need a channel that is basically for moaning about the downtime.
Aug 03 20:00:06 <seanw> Thus stopping that moaning getting in anyone else's way.
Aug 03 20:00:07 <OlEnglish> when joining the server
Aug 03 20:00:14 <OlEnglish> i dunno
Aug 03 20:00:14 <Rjd0060> domas: is there a reason you cant voice (while channel is +m) a couple users who know what is going on to explain to mention what the issue is once in a while?
Aug 03 20:00:15 <Prodego> no we don't, look at #wikipedia, it is quiet all the time
Aug 03 20:00:16 <OlEnglish> i 'm leaving
Aug 03 20:00:20 <AzaToth> domas: perhaps have naglios-wm mute the channel if more than X entries per time has been made
Aug 03 20:00:22 <saper> domas: yes, I usually don't have anything clueful to say on -tech when stuff is down
Aug 03 20:00:23 <domas> rjd0060: sometimes we do
Aug 03 20:00:26 <martinp23_> Things would really be easier to explain and coordinate were it not for the fact that we get 300-odd new users appearing wanting answers when it goes down, due to that message that appeasr. Seeing as that's going to be removed, we'd just have the usual 50-150 users moaning and it's far far easier then for the ops to communicate.
Aug 03 20:00:27 <kmccoy> seanw, I disagree. #wikipedia should be that. Even if there's a -downtime channel, it'll still happen in #wikipedia.
Aug 03 20:00:33 <martinp23_> so i think it could become a non-issue
Aug 03 20:00:38 <Rjd0060> domas: Ah, I haven't noticed - that's probably a good idea
Aug 03 20:00:38 <domas> saper: there's general chatter about nothing then, thats why +m happens
Aug 03 20:00:52 <kibble> AzaToth, but does that help if no one's paying attention? ;-)
Aug 03 20:00:59 <saper> domas: so what I say is that +m is the right way to deal with it
Aug 03 20:01:01 <martinp23_> IRC is probably not the best place to point people when a server goes down either. As much as I hate to say it, twitter would be better.
Aug 03 20:01:02 <Romaine> a part of the users use IRC, perhaps other users who do not use IRC can have more information as well, in the blue screen maybe possible?
Aug 03 20:01:02 <seanw> So do we want to instead shepherd all the complainers off IRC?
Aug 03 20:01:13 <Rjd0060> seanw: I dont think so.
Aug 03 20:01:14 <AzaToth> kibble: it will reduce the chatter in -tech
Aug 03 20:01:15 * tchor (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:01:19 <Prodego> people are always going to ask if there is a problem
Aug 03 20:01:25 <^demon> Well, 400 people going "Zomg wiki down" isn't helpful to anyone.
Aug 03 20:01:26 <Mike_lifeguard> seanw: Not off IRC, no. IRC is great for such realtime communication.
Aug 03 20:01:29 <seanw> Rjd0060, I mean the people who wouldn't be on IRC anyway.
Aug 03 20:01:33 <seanw> Mike_lifeguard, but to say what?
Aug 03 20:01:34 <Rjd0060> seanw: I know
Aug 03 20:01:35 <saper> martinp23_: IRC is _the_ source, see log messages and monitoring bots
Aug 03 20:01:36 <Rjd0060> disagree
Aug 03 20:01:37 <Avruch> Don't point them to IRC, to reduce the flood, and continue to use +m in -tech
Aug 03 20:01:37 <Rjd0060> :)
Aug 03 20:01:39 <seanw> Those who really care are already here.
Aug 03 20:01:43 <Mike_lifeguard> seanw: the same thing we do now obviously
Aug 03 20:01:44 <Dragonfly6-7> what I meant is that, even if we come up with some master list of channels to send messages to at once, there can always be more channels created
Aug 03 20:01:47 <Dragonfly6-7> and already are
Aug 03 20:01:52 <domas> again, let me reiterate, 'tech' channels are where people work
Aug 03 20:01:58 <kmccoy> domas, the devs do a fine job, and *usually* I can follow along with what's going on. My point is simply that those of us from other channels should try to keep down the noise level in -tech by keeping users in our channels and giving them information there.
Aug 03 20:02:05 <saper> there could be a solution
Aug 03 20:02:11 <Prodego> I don't think +m in -tech is needed as much as it is made out to be
Aug 03 20:02:16 <martinp23_> saper: It is _the_ source for the people working on the problem, sure. For the users affected, the log messages mean nothing.
Aug 03 20:02:19 <Mike_lifeguard> seanw: give people information in a useful manner that doesn't get in the way of #wikimedia-tech being a workspace and other channels (specifically #wikipedia) being a cesspool of pure noise
Aug 03 20:02:20 <AzaToth> Dragonfly6-7: easy, all #wiki-channels with seanw in access list
Aug 03 20:02:25 <^demon> Prodgeo: Were you there the other day? :p
Aug 03 20:02:35 <domas> Prodego: shut up, already, ok? :)
Aug 03 20:02:39 <Prodego> ^demon: sleeping
Aug 03 20:02:41 <martinp23_> saper: all they want to see is "hi folks, the servers are having some problems (due to a broken server) and we're working hard to fix it. eta 10 mins".
Aug 03 20:02:46 <saper> there could be another channel, say "tech-chat" where willing people translate tech talk to general user talk, but I am not sure if we get enough people for this
Aug 03 20:02:48 * LeBron (n=LeBron@vau75-12-88-181-4-78.fbx.proxad.net) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings ("Konversation terminated!")
Aug 03 20:02:50 <martinp23_> saper: indeed, all they want to know is that we know about the problem
Aug 03 20:02:50 <kmccoy> domas, the only suggestion I'd have for the devs in -tech is to realize that some channel ops are sitting there gathering information for their channels and sometimes mention things like "hey guys, the system is stable again".
Aug 03 20:02:53 <seanw> Mike_lifeguard, which, evidenced by last week, we failed at.
Aug 03 20:02:57 <Mike_lifeguard> Yes.
Aug 03 20:02:58 <AzaToth> Dragonfly6-7: but probably only the normal channels need update
Aug 03 20:02:59 <^demon> saper: Well that's put in the /topic, that nobody reads
Aug 03 20:03:00 <Mike_lifeguard> Miserably.
Aug 03 20:03:00 <domas> kmccoy: thats what we tend to do
Aug 03 20:03:00 <martinp23_> having them in #wikipedia they feel compelled to make noise
Aug 03 20:03:03 <domas> kmccoy: at least me
Aug 03 20:03:16 <Mike_lifeguard> seanw: Thus we change things along the lines already suggested
Aug 03 20:03:25 <seanw> Mike_lifeguard, perhaps you can summarise>?
Aug 03 20:03:32 <domas> if people want to lurk and learn, we'll sure inform a bit
Aug 03 20:03:41 <I_am_Keegan> ^demon: right, nobody reads /topics. Actually, better put, the only people that read topics are the ones that don't need to
Aug 03 20:03:41 <kmccoy> domas, because sometimes I can't tell if there's a continuing issue that is being worked on, or if the system is just recovering from a downtime, or if there's a new set of errors coming in.
Aug 03 20:03:42 <domas> (and !log sometimes carries expecially important bits)
Aug 03 20:04:02 <Aqwis> the tech team needs a PR guy
Aug 03 20:04:02 <saper> domas: topic is usually 3 words
Aug 03 20:04:15 <seanw> We could with /wallops access that only goes to Wikimedia users :)
Aug 03 20:04:15 <^demon> domas: Important yes, but far too techy for the people wanting answers most of the time.
Aug 03 20:04:21 <seanw> That would be ideal.
Aug 03 20:04:29 <Prodego> but that doesn't exist, does it
Aug 03 20:04:31 <AzaToth> seanw: mm
Aug 03 20:04:40 <seanw> Prodego, no, but I'm wondering if anyone can come up with something close.
Aug 03 20:04:40 <Prodego> if we had our own network it could and would
Aug 03 20:04:42 <Rjd0060> well, explaining to everybody what's wrong can't be a priority (from a sysadmins PoV)
Aug 03 20:04:43 <domas> ^demon: see, some say we're not verbose enough, some say we're too verbose :)
Aug 03 20:04:45 <saper> and do not forget about some real issues that get reported from time to time for example by bot owners. it's not always "wikimedia down or up", sometimes there is a huge issue on a running system that's not easy to catch
Aug 03 20:04:49 <Mike_lifeguard> Sure, the problem is that #wikipedia and #wikimedia-tech to a lesser extent become too noisy to be useful for anyone (the regular users of the channels or the people requesting info on downtime) -- instead, we should have #wikimedia-downtime where we can have a large group of ops manage the traffic and ensure there is a good & centralized flow of information to appease the masses while keeping them out of the hair of people
Aug 03 20:04:49 <Mike_lifeguard> who need non-noisy workspaces
Aug 03 20:04:53 <seanw> Prodego, ... which would go down along with the websites!
Aug 03 20:04:54 <domas> there's one very simple thing
Aug 03 20:05:00 <domas> when we don't know what is happening, we don't know what is happening
Aug 03 20:05:01 <kmccoy> I think that the idea of moving "downtime" discussion out of #wikipedia is silly. If #wikipedia isn't for discussion of important realtime information about the operating status of Wikipedia, what is it for?
Aug 03 20:05:02 <Prodego> seanw: a bot in every channel (gms like) would be interesting, but I just don't think it would happen
Aug 03 20:05:10 <domas> thats usually when +m hits, so we can concentrate
Aug 03 20:05:12 <domas> :)
Aug 03 20:05:23 <domas> when we know what is happening, we can remove the +m and go into answering questions
Aug 03 20:05:25 <Prodego> kmccoy: +1
Aug 03 20:05:26 <^demon> domas: I'm not talking about verbosity, I'm talking about how techy it is. "Swapping s1 master" means nothing to Joe User who logins to #wikimedia-tech looking for answers why enwiki is down
Aug 03 20:06:00 * c197|away has quit ()
Aug 03 20:06:01 <domas> though, speaking of recent problems, none of diagnosis you'd get on #wikimedia-tech would be accurate anyway
Aug 03 20:06:01 <martinp23_> kmccoy: what exactly is the discussion?
Aug 03 20:06:09 <DaBPunkt> ^demon: -tech is not the channel for joe-user to find out why wp is down
Aug 03 20:06:12 <martinp23_> as far as i see, there is no discussion at all.
Aug 03 20:06:15 <saper> domas: sadly true
Aug 03 20:06:22 * MikkoM (n=a@wikipedia/fr/MikkoM) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:06:32 <^demon> DaBPunkt: I know it's not, but tell that to everyone who logs on and tries to get answers from it :)
Aug 03 20:06:43 <kmccoy> I know that the incoming horde of users into #wikipedia disrupts our usual flow of discussion of cats and PC vs Macs, but we'll just have to keep that for later and use #wikipedia to relay information about the status of Wikipedia to the users who are joining.
Aug 03 20:06:43 <Prodego> DaBPunkt: so what IS?
Aug 03 20:06:58 <AzaToth> kmccoy: wikipedia != wikimedia
Aug 03 20:07:05 <seanw> Okay guys, we need to move on if we're not going to get much more out of this.
Aug 03 20:07:08 <Prodego> DaBPunkt: if it is #wikipedia, then the ops have to know, and how to they know, they ask in -tech, and if they can't do that then no one knows and everyone complains
Aug 03 20:07:11 <DaBPunkt> Prodego: a working channel for the techs. There are nice and let us read, what the do
Aug 03 20:07:12 <kmccoy> AzaToth... yes?
Aug 03 20:07:13 <saper> well think positively - a horde of users asking is a positive and motivating singal how important your work is
Aug 03 20:07:15 <domas> anyway, every incident is different
Aug 03 20:07:22 <AzaToth> kmccoy: sorry, lag
Aug 03 20:07:38 <seanw> So: any new suggestiosn are welcome, otherwise let's move on.
Aug 03 20:07:43 <domas> and, by the way, being snarky during the incident can lead to same reaction, as you'd get in any incident management team
Aug 03 20:07:44 <domas> :)
Aug 03 20:07:53 <martinp23_> kmccoy: the only feasible way to do that is to +m the channel though - if it's not +m there's so much noise that the message doesn't get across.
Aug 03 20:07:56 <seanw> I feel this is something it might be worth discussing more permanently on meta.
Aug 03 20:08:03 <seanw> Or one of the mailing lists.
Aug 03 20:08:06 <kmccoy> martinp23_, sure.
Aug 03 20:08:09 <I_am_Keegan> OTRS system went down. No panic, because it's not open. I popped in the channel, domas fixed, no big deal
Aug 03 20:08:10 <^demon> domas: Also, demanding shell access so you can "help fix it" will lead to a +b ;-)
Aug 03 20:08:12 <AzaToth> yea
Aug 03 20:08:15 <Prodego> a wikimedia bot is an interesting idea for the future
Aug 03 20:08:20 <I_am_Keegan> Wikipedia is a different issue
Aug 03 20:08:22 <domas> ^demon: not really
Aug 03 20:08:30 * seanw sets mode +m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:08:34 * seanw removes voice from ^demon
Aug 03 20:08:38 <kmccoy> Sometimes all users need is a reassurance that other people are experiencing the same problem and that it's being worked on.
Aug 03 20:08:39 * seanw removes voice from kmccoy domas
Aug 03 20:08:57 <seanw> Okay then guys, we're goingin circles.
Aug 03 20:09:00 <seanw> Let us move on due to lack of time.
Aug 03 20:09:06 * Martinp23 has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Aug 03 20:09:16 * Martinp23 (i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:09:19 * Jaqen has quit (Nick collision from services.)
Aug 03 20:09:25 * Jaquen (n=jaqen@Wikipedia/Jaqen) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:09:28 <seanw> Our next topic is lovely and chunky.
Aug 03 20:09:30 * schiste (email@example.com) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:09:31 * seanw gives voice to Mike_lifeguard
Aug 03 20:09:37 <seanw> It is the issue, of course, of public logging.
Aug 03 20:09:39 <seanw> Background:
Aug 03 20:10:35 <seanw> For a long time public logging has been disallowed in all Wikimedia channels. The arguments for are that it means IRC becomes less formal and people are more free to express themselves, it also stops IRC from being used as 'evidence' on-wiki etc. The arguments against concern its unenforcability, primarily.
Aug 03 20:10:54 <seanw> There was a discussion about a year (?) ago to see if there was any consensus to change this. There wasn't.
Aug 03 20:11:06 <seanw> While we have everyone here, we could revisit it.
Aug 03 20:11:11 <Mike_lifeguard> Was that discussion specific to certain channels?
Aug 03 20:11:13 <seanw> Mike_lifeguard proposed this, anything to say?
Aug 03 20:11:15 * SudoKing (n=geek@wikipedia/PseudoOne) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:11:19 <seanw> No, it was global.
Aug 03 20:11:31 <Rjd0060> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/Guidelines/Public_logging
Aug 03 20:11:40 <Rjd0060> Thats the discussion from last August
Aug 03 20:11:53 <Mike_lifeguard> OK. Well, my view is essentially that talking in public IRC channels is somewhat analagous to talking in a public park, or a room anyone may enter
Aug 03 20:11:55 <kibble> "EDIT: Just to note, I am talking here specifically about #wikipedia, and perhaps also #wikipedia-en."
Aug 03 20:12:21 <Mike_lifeguard> There should be no expectation of privacy, and thus I have little issue with public logging provided it is noted in the entrymsg or /topic and the channel users agree to it
Aug 03 20:12:27 * yannf (n=yannf@wikipedia/yannf) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:12:28 * Andy_taoke has quit (Client Quit)
Aug 03 20:12:30 * tchor (firstname.lastname@example.org) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:12:48 <seanw> Please stop talking until I -m!
Aug 03 20:12:49 <Mike_lifeguard> For private channels, I would take an entirely different view. Logging #wikimedia-checkuser is a bad idea for obvious reasons
Aug 03 20:12:55 <seanw> I can't read it all, let Mike finish.
Aug 03 20:13:15 * martinp25 (i=4e2018a1@gateway/web/freenode/x-bodtaiwmnwgpdqge) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:13:17 <Mike_lifeguard> So, I guess I'd advocate a per-channel decision (for public channels)
Aug 03 20:13:23 * Mike_lifeguard 's done ^_^
Aug 03 20:13:31 <seanw> Okay then.
Aug 03 20:13:33 <Rjd0060> There should be a default though, thoughts?
Aug 03 20:13:34 <seanw> Let's open it up!
Aug 03 20:13:37 <dungodung> fwiw, I agree with mike
Aug 03 20:13:41 <kibble> Mike_lifeguard, personally, I agree with the 'let the channels decide" but there'd be a "opt-out" type of thing (they have to decide to publicly log)
Aug 03 20:13:46 <seanw> This is really mad, so, let's REALLY TRY TO STAY ON-TOPIC.
Aug 03 20:13:47 * seanw sets mode -m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:13:48 <Prodego> I was going to say: Freenode says no public logging by default, if channels want to allow it, fine, if they don't fine, what's the issue? This is more of a channel issue IMO.
Aug 03 20:13:49 <Rjd0060> I.e.: "No public logging unless otherwise stated"
Aug 03 20:13:49 <^demon> IMHO, we need to get over the "zomg no logging" rule. Only in places where actual private data (ie: checkuser, oversight) is being discussed is it really needed (again, it's totally unenforceable).
Aug 03 20:13:53 <OlEnglish> huh? mirc allows logging anything that comes across my screen
Aug 03 20:13:55 <schiste> By the way, what's forbidden is publishing the logs
Aug 03 20:13:59 <SudoKing> woah..
Aug 03 20:14:02 <Prodego> this isn't a GC issue, it is a per channel issue
Aug 03 20:14:05 <Rjd0060> OlEnglish: *Public* logging
Aug 03 20:14:08 <enhydra> I would like to say that there should be “forks”
Aug 03 20:14:15 <enhydra> that is, #wikipedia-logged, #wikimedia-irc-logged
Aug 03 20:14:16 <Astemd> private logging maybe is good idea
Aug 03 20:14:21 <enhydra> that are _explititly_ logged publicly
Aug 03 20:14:31 <GrooveDog> I agree with Mike. Public logging should be allowed in any public channels. Channels which do have +m turned on, or are invite-only, or secret, should have it prohibited.
Aug 03 20:14:32 <enhydra> and then, if people want to share what they say, they talk in -logged
Aug 03 20:14:34 <kibble> ^demon, #mediawiki and #wikimedia-toolserver are already logged publicly, I think
Aug 03 20:14:36 <Avruch> this was discussed on wikipedia-en the other day, btw, and views were about evenly mixed - arriving at a "consensus" is likely to be as difficult now as it was last year
Aug 03 20:14:38 <Prodego> Astemd: anyone can privately log as much as they want, so long as they don't distribute
Aug 03 20:14:45 <Mike_lifeguard> ^demon: one other consideration might be the likelihood of stuff you don't want logged... in #wikimedia-stewards for example, I would *not* want public logging because there is too much sensitive stuff that goes on.
Aug 03 20:14:51 <saper> I feel guilty whenever a send privately someone a copy of a logfile
Aug 03 20:15:00 <Mike_lifeguard> Avruch: luckily we're not talking about enwiki only :D
Aug 03 20:15:07 <domas> #wikimedia-tech is not against any kind of logging \o/
Aug 03 20:15:09 <Astemd> saper: me also
Aug 03 20:15:11 * guillom has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Aug 03 20:15:15 <martinp25> We had a big discussion about this a few months ago, and there consensus was probably non-existant on irc, perhaps on the side of not logging.
Aug 03 20:15:17 <^demon> kibble: I know #mediawiki is.
Aug 03 20:15:20 <kmccoy> I will once again say that we have spent way too much effort on this public logging nonsense. Waving our hands and making so much noise about no public logging only harms us, by A) encouraging people to do it (as in WP:BEANS) and B) giving users a false sense of privacy. We should simply stop mentioning public logging at all.
Aug 03 20:15:27 * seanw sets mode +m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:15:32 <seanw> Okay let me clarify something that just came up.
Aug 03 20:15:45 * Captain-tucker has quit (Client Quit)
Aug 03 20:15:53 <seanw> It is a GC issue because we as GCs have historically been charged with enforcing the piolicy
Aug 03 20:16:05 * seanw gives voice to martinp25
Aug 03 20:16:29 <seanw> We have, I believe, attmeped to globally ban people from IRC over it.
Aug 03 20:16:34 <seanw> Enforcement has never been easy.
Aug 03 20:16:35 * illyism (n=Vista@126.96.36.199) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:16:52 <Rjd0060> (and never will be)
Aug 03 20:16:53 <seanw> But it has always been a GC thing because it is a global rule - if we want to change that, sure, but that is the status quo.
Aug 03 20:16:56 * seanw sets mode -m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:17:05 * seanw sets mode +m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:17:12 <seanw> And let me define public logging for a few of you :)
Aug 03 20:17:28 <seanw> Public logging means publishing logs so that they are generally available with a web browser or whatever
Aug 03 20:17:46 <seanw> There is absolutely no prohibution on logging privately, or sharing logs with selected individuals.
Aug 03 20:17:46 <kibble> ie. http://toolserver.org/~bryan/TsLogBot/
Aug 03 20:17:53 <seanw> For example there are logging bots that a few ops have access to.
Aug 03 20:18:06 <seanw> And I have extensive logs of almost every minute of all the Wikimedia channels I am in since 2006
Aug 03 20:18:14 <seanw> With that, let us continue
Aug 03 20:18:15 * seanw sets mode -m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:18:16 * UIS|Away is now known as Until_It_Sleeps
Aug 03 20:18:17 <Prodego> I'd disagree that it is a global rule. Each channel should be responsible for creating and enforcing their rules, within reason.
Aug 03 20:18:30 <martinp25> Seanw's voiced me because a few months ago, when I was #wikipedia/-en contact, I ran a discussion about public logging. It followed from a more long-running discussion onwiki. I took it as a channel issue then. The discussion onwiki perhaps sided towards (slightly) public logging. The irc discussion, however, was the opposite and though it was probably no consensus tended slightly against public logging.
Aug 03 20:18:51 <^demon> Mike_lifeguard: Like I said, in places where we need to be discreet we should be. IMHO there is absolutely 0 reason to "disallow" logging of #wikipedia-en
Aug 03 20:19:02 <Mike_lifeguard> Agreed.
Aug 03 20:19:06 <egg> does public logging mean revealing some information retreived from IRC into wiki?
Aug 03 20:19:16 <charitwo> or other means
Aug 03 20:19:18 * GrooveDog is now known as GrooveDog|away
Aug 03 20:19:29 <kibble> egg, what do you mean?
Aug 03 20:19:30 * Whisker (n=Maximr@wikipedia/Maxim) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:19:32 * Gurumasa has quit ("Lähdössä")
Aug 03 20:19:48 <FastLizard4> I think -ops should definitely be logged, if for no other reason that preservation of ban rationales
Aug 03 20:19:50 <saper> we've had a case of a guy who did channel activity stats
Aug 03 20:19:51 <Mentifisto> seanw: ban people from irc? what, all the networks? :P
Aug 03 20:19:52 <OlEnglish> personally i prefer IRC to be informal
Aug 03 20:19:56 <egg> kibble: something private, for example that X and Y are sex partners :)
Aug 03 20:20:13 <Until_It_Sleeps> Mentifisto: You mean a k-line?
Aug 03 20:20:13 <saper> funny enough the same kind of stats did not turmoil on -tech, but on -pl people felt offended
Aug 03 20:20:22 <Mike_lifeguard> Another issue is that if we're going to be logging things publicly, we need a mechanism whereby that is done in a semi-reliable manner. A central bot to log all logged Wikimedia channels operated on the toolserver would be a good idea, rather than the current disorganized mess
Aug 03 20:20:24 <martinp25> fastlizard4: dircbot remembers.
Aug 03 20:20:31 <kibble> egg, ah :-) well, if public logging were enabled then yes, anyone could access that and bring it up on wiki
Aug 03 20:20:39 * Whisker is now known as Maximr
Aug 03 20:20:41 <martinp25> (and contacts and various ops probalby keep their own logs)
Aug 03 20:20:41 <Prodego> FastLizard4: I think publicly logging -ops would remove the discussion of bans from -ops
Aug 03 20:20:44 * martinp25 (i=4e2018a1@gateway/web/freenode/x-bodtaiwmnwgpdqge) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings ("rejoining. . .")
Aug 03 20:20:44 * martinp25 (i=4e2018a1@gateway/web/freenode/x-bodtaiwmnwgpdqge) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:20:45 <saper> There is a reasonable argument against "public logging" -> not everyone is aware of that
Aug 03 20:20:48 * Hermione_Granger has quit (Connection timed out)
Aug 03 20:20:51 <^demon> Mike_lifeguard: That could be cool. Have a TS bot that will log any WMF chan that people want to opt-in
Aug 03 20:21:13 <Mike_lifeguard> kibble, FastLizard4: note that most bans have nothing to do with dircbot because it's really only used in a handful of channels
Aug 03 20:21:14 <kibble> ^demon, that was also an option in the #wikipedia/-en discussion that was mentioned
Aug 03 20:21:14 * Aqwis (n=Aqwis@188.8.131.52.tmi.telenormobil.no) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings ("Forlater kanalen")
Aug 03 20:21:16 * Danny_B (n=Danny_B@wikimedia/Danny-B.) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:21:18 <Avruch> maybe if you allow public logging, there should be a bot that publishes the logs somewhere automatically - sort of the "official record" to avoid problems with competing, different logs
Aug 03 20:21:18 <saper> Mike_lifeguard: I think tthis is going a bit too far
Aug 03 20:21:34 <Danny_B> hello everybody
Aug 03 20:21:35 <OlEnglish> hrm, mixing Wikipedia and IRC is not a good idea imo
Aug 03 20:21:35 <Mike_lifeguard> saper: in what way?
Aug 03 20:21:37 <Prodego> Mike_lifeguard: a central bot would be cool for other reasons as well
Aug 03 20:21:43 <FastLizard4> Prodego: Well, that's just the thing
Aug 03 20:21:49 <FastLizard4> I think that the ban discussions should be publically logged
Aug 03 20:21:54 <Astemd> wiki needs all the help it can get
Aug 03 20:21:58 <saper> Mike_lifeguard: well while ad-hoc or whatever personal logs occassionally published are fine
Aug 03 20:21:59 <egg> kibble: i mean... no "log" is published as a log, but just the infrormation. the people consider it private but say it on channel. and someone goes to wiki and reveals it. should he get banned?
Aug 03 20:22:03 <Prodego> FastLizard4: I don't think that is going to happen
Aug 03 20:22:04 <^demon> Prodego: Makes them centrally searchable, too :)
Aug 03 20:22:08 <saper> such an institution is an overkill
Aug 03 20:22:14 <str4nd> Should search engines be able to index and archive those logs?
Aug 03 20:22:16 <Mike_lifeguard> no, it really isn't
Aug 03 20:22:25 <kibble> egg, it's up to the local community I'm sure, but how can you justify banning someone who posted information made public?
Aug 03 20:22:33 <^demon> str4nd: Depends on if we open said logs to the crawlers.
Aug 03 20:22:47 <DaBPunkt> kibble: I did.
Aug 03 20:22:58 <martinp23_> should something said in a moment of lightheadedness on IRC be allowed to sink someone's RfA?
Aug 03 20:22:58 <kmccoy> If you don't, someone else will repost the logs in a searchable form.
Aug 03 20:22:59 <kibble> egg, it would depend on a lot of things and the local community as well :-)
Aug 03 20:23:02 <Dragonfly6-7> even if we log the information and make it public
Aug 03 20:23:06 <Mike_lifeguard> There probably wouldn't be any need; there'd likely be a web interface to search things anyways
Aug 03 20:23:12 <Dragonfly6-7> people will devise private modes of communication
Aug 03 20:23:16 <Prodego> Martinp23: regardless of should, it did
Aug 03 20:23:27 <martinp23_> more than once i think
Aug 03 20:23:28 <Romaine> is there a need at all to have logs public?
Aug 03 20:23:32 <Mike_lifeguard> Dragonfly6-7: note we're not talking about logging private channels (and not even logging all public channels)
Aug 03 20:23:45 <^demon> martinp23_: That's up to an individual wiki how much weight they put on IRC chats.
Aug 03 20:23:53 <martinp23_> Anyway, can I suggest that logging vs no logging isn't a discussion for this meeting?
Aug 03 20:23:54 <egg> kibble: because the 'no public logging' policy, some people rely on that what is said on channel, is only for people that are present.
Aug 03 20:23:56 <Mike_lifeguard> martinp23_: Yes, it should. Just as an edit made on-wiki should.
Aug 03 20:24:01 <martinp23_> It affects far more than the 85 people in here
Aug 03 20:24:06 <Mike_lifeguard> martinp23_: If you're speaking in public, you should expect to be heard
Aug 03 20:24:21 <Dragonfly6-7> Mike_lifeguard - the point is that even if a channel is logged, people will still devise private channels if they decide they don't want something logged
Aug 03 20:24:23 <seanw> martinp23_, but this is a place to start discussions.
Aug 03 20:24:37 <Mike_lifeguard> martinp23_: I think the suggestion is actually that we allow individual channels decide - no worries about us forcing this upon anyone
Aug 03 20:24:53 <Rjd0060> I agree with Martinp23 - this would need to be like the last discussion and on-wiki for best results.
Aug 03 20:24:56 <Mike_lifeguard> Dragonfly6-7: Sure, but we should do what we can to foster openness
Aug 03 20:24:57 * schiste doesn't want what it says to be republished
Aug 03 20:25:00 * harej (n=chatzill@wikipedia/MessedRocker) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:25:00 <Brownout> (I'd expect that supporters of public logging will continue to bring this up ad nauseam)
Aug 03 20:25:04 <Rjd0060> Mike_lifeguard: that seems to be the case already (#mediawiki for example)
Aug 03 20:25:05 <Romaine> if a channel is logged, people go elsewhere, and to eye sees them, while on public chat someone can see something about it
Aug 03 20:25:07 <kibble> egg, if that policy was changed, it wouldn't affect things people said in the past
Aug 03 20:25:08 <harej> right, so i go to lunch and now i'm the most wanted man
Aug 03 20:25:11 <Prodego> seanw: harej is back
Aug 03 20:25:15 * Martinp23 has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Aug 03 20:25:19 <martinp23_> seanw: Sure, this topic in this meeting could outline the parameters for how you'd do it (like whether individual channels decide or what), but it's going down a line now that's pretty much pointless
Aug 03 20:25:23 <Astemd> as every wiki has it's rules, every irc channel shuold decide for itself
Aug 03 20:25:24 * Martinp23 (i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:25:31 <harej> who had a question for me
Aug 03 20:25:32 * seanw sets mode -m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:25:35 * seanw sets mode +m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:25:40 <seanw> Okay, we're not being constructive here.
Aug 03 20:25:44 <kibble> egg, so you wouldn't have to worry about it :-) but it's not the GCs place to enforce the policy on wiki
Aug 03 20:25:45 * kibble quiets
Aug 03 20:26:03 <seanw> It feels like we are in the exat same situations as we are every single time w edo this - there is no consensus, so we default to keepign the rule.
Aug 03 20:26:16 <seanw> Let's put it to bed for now since harej has returned.
Aug 03 20:26:17 <Mike_lifeguard> That's why I don't want one rule to rule them all
Aug 03 20:26:23 * seanw removes voice from Mike_lifeguard
Aug 03 20:26:25 * seanw gives voice to harej
Aug 03 20:26:34 <harej> Good timezone, everyone
Aug 03 20:26:39 <seanw> Right then, Mr Hare, please itnroduce your topic :)
Aug 03 20:27:09 <Rjd0060> Mike_lifeguard also commented ont he topic, so
Aug 03 20:27:11 * ChanServ gives voice to Mike_lifeguard
Aug 03 20:28:04 <harej> wikimedia's irc channels make use of stalk words such as !_admin or !_checkuser (without the underscores) to elicit the attention of specific wikipedia users
Aug 03 20:28:10 <harej> namely, administrators, checkusers, and oversighters
Aug 03 20:28:17 <Mike_lifeguard> and stewards
Aug 03 20:28:20 <harej> yes
Aug 03 20:28:46 <harej> this system is questionably effective because there's no way to tell if anyone is actually picking up on the other end or if it will just float in the ether unanswered
Aug 03 20:29:24 <harej> so for #wikipedia-en-admins i proposed that checkusers and oversighters are given +v access so that there is a visual indicator of an "on duty" cu/os
Aug 03 20:29:29 * Ex13 has quit (Client Quit)
Aug 03 20:29:36 <seanw> Note that this only applies to enwiki.
Aug 03 20:29:41 <harej> yes
Aug 03 20:29:49 * Martinp23 has quit (Client Quit)
Aug 03 20:29:51 <harej> except for !_stewards
Aug 03 20:29:53 <kibble> but Mike_lifeguard's addendum is more global
Aug 03 20:30:00 <dungodung> and is channel specific, outside of GCs scope
Aug 03 20:30:15 <harej> oh, i am talking about for such a +v system in general
Aug 03 20:30:20 <seanw> dungodung, maybe, but this is a general IRC meeting too.
Aug 03 20:30:25 * Erkan_Yilmaz (n=erkan@wikimedia/Erkan-Yilmaz) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:30:27 <dungodung> oh
Aug 03 20:30:37 * marianoCe (email@example.com) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:30:45 <Mike_lifeguard> I've made similar proposals for both #wikimedia-stewards and other channels.
Aug 03 20:30:53 <harej> my proposal for -admins is channel specific, but what are the thoughts of having "powerful users" stand out in irc channels so it can be easily ascertained who is able to answer requests?
Aug 03 20:31:11 <seanw> As martin has pointed out privately, this is a per-channel issue.,
Aug 03 20:31:20 <seanw> But perhaps we can use this meeting to gather best pracitces together.
Aug 03 20:31:26 <harej> (for background, you can see the proposal for #wikipedia-en-admnis here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/wikipedia-en-admins/Voicing_CheckUsers_and_Oversighters_poll )
Aug 03 20:31:27 <dungodung> I'm afraid most people that need their assistance wouldn't be aware what voices actually mean (=> would they know the fact that the voiced persons are CUs or OSs)
Aug 03 20:31:34 * GrooveDog|away has quit (Client Quit)
Aug 03 20:31:35 <kibble> harej, #wikipedia-fr already voices all it's admin, iirc
Aug 03 20:31:40 <seanw> There has been much mailing list discussion about enwiki's difficulty in acquiring checkusres and oversighters quickly, how can we help this?
Aug 03 20:31:42 * seanw sets mode -m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:31:43 * marianoCe (firstname.lastname@example.org) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:31:48 <schiste> kibble: just said it :)
Aug 03 20:31:53 <Mike_lifeguard> For cross-wiki consideration, there is the additional problem of actually getting people into the same channel. Stewards have achieved this very well; checkusers not so much, and oversighters haven't even tried to my knowledge.
Aug 03 20:31:58 <kibble> schiste, ah, sorry :-) I didn't see your pots because it was +m
Aug 03 20:31:59 * Pinky (n=pinkeh@uncyclopedia/Pinky49) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:32:33 <harej> Mike_lifeguard: the #wikipedia-en-admins proposal is specific to CU/OS who also happen to be in #wikipedia-en-admins
Aug 03 20:32:40 <Mike_lifeguard> For checkusers in particular, having them in #wikimedia-checkuser would be a big step forward. I've asked the GCs whether the -en-checkuser (or whatever it's called) channel is actually used by enwiki CUs, but I didn't get a very good answer
Aug 03 20:32:44 * GrooveDog (n=GrooveDo@wnpgmb1308w-ad04-53-12.dynamic.mts.net) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:32:45 <harej> and it was proposed to create a #wikipedia-en-functionaries channel
Aug 03 20:33:00 <Avruch> isn't the "visual identification of powerful users" something Freenode tries to avoid?
Aug 03 20:33:03 <Mike_lifeguard> Sure, but that's not the only group we care about
Aug 03 20:33:11 <dungodung> Mike_lifeguard: I don't think either of us has access there
Aug 03 20:33:13 <Mike_lifeguard> Avruch: That's specific to ops
Aug 03 20:33:14 <Prodego> Avruch: yes, but hey, they do it in #freenode too
Aug 03 20:33:21 <schiste> Anyway, this kind of "gathering good practices" thing should happen on wiki :)
Aug 03 20:33:22 <martinp23_> Avruch: yes, but channels are free to do as they wish :p
Aug 03 20:33:25 <harej> Avruch: I mean powerful on-wiki, not so much IRC
Aug 03 20:33:27 <Mike_lifeguard> voicing isn't a show of power
Aug 03 20:33:27 <harej> and it's only +v
Aug 03 20:33:30 <martinp23_> it's more against the "rah rah i'm an op /kickban"
Aug 03 20:33:44 <kmccoy> My feelings in opposition to this specific suggestion for -en-admins are listed on that page, but I would say basically that I suspect that it will simply be a confusing status symbol that may discourage users with this higher level of access from coming to the channel as they will now be seen as "on duty".
Aug 03 20:34:19 <Prodego> sounds specific to that channel
Aug 03 20:34:23 <Prodego> this is a per channel issue
Aug 03 20:34:38 <saper> freenode recommends to hide ops, but this is not a strict policy
Aug 03 20:34:40 <Annemarie> Oh, a meeting!
Aug 03 20:34:49 <dungodung> #wikimedia-stewards has a bot for alerting specific users. it's turned up to be a good practice
Aug 03 20:34:52 <Avruch> oversighters typically ask that requests get sent to the e-mail list, and the +v for anyone would need to be voluntary to avoid the issue of people leaving the channel to avoid pings
Aug 03 20:35:02 <Laaknor> OTRS and -ops also voice users "with access"
Aug 03 20:35:04 <kibble> Annemarie, you're late :-( started 1h31m ago
Aug 03 20:35:10 <Prodego> so now we can move on to the topic of banning Annemarie
Aug 03 20:35:14 * Aeternus (n=massimil@wikimedia/massimiliano-lincetto) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:35:16 <Annemarie> How can I be late if I didn't want to or intend to go?
Aug 03 20:35:23 * Huib is now known as Huib|NotHere
Aug 03 20:35:24 <Fabexplosive> lol
Aug 03 20:35:32 <kibble> Annemarie, cuz i said so
Aug 03 20:35:37 <harej> Avruch: the -admins proposal is an opt-in system. If a CU/OS does not want to stand out, he or she will never have to; +v would have to be specifically invoked by the user
Aug 03 20:35:41 <seanw> Okay kibble and Annemarie, please leave it! :-)
Aug 03 20:35:41 <Annemarie> -en-admins should not have +v or +V.
Aug 03 20:35:45 <kibble> hehe
Aug 03 20:35:46 <Maximr> why are we discussing #admins
Aug 03 20:35:50 <Maximr> it's only one cahnnel
Aug 03 20:35:57 <seanw> Maximr, it's a good model.
Aug 03 20:36:00 <seanw> For the rest of IRC.
Aug 03 20:36:07 <Maximr> um
Aug 03 20:36:10 <Mike_lifeguard> no it isn't
Aug 03 20:36:10 <harej> Maximr: because i am requesting input on the concept of highlighting a specific class of users in general
Aug 03 20:36:12 <Maximr> no
Aug 03 20:36:15 <Annemarie> (1) I don't think most of the CU/OS people _want_ it.
Aug 03 20:36:15 <Maximr> it's not
Aug 03 20:36:17 <Annemarie> (2) It creates a bad atmosphere for the channel.
Aug 03 20:36:19 <Annemarie> seanw was being facetious.
Aug 03 20:36:41 <Annemarie> Though I would favor separate ops channels for each channel. ;-)
Aug 03 20:36:45 <harej> Annemarie: how does it create a bad atmosphere, exactly
Aug 03 20:36:58 <Annemarie> harej: Elevating a certain group of users with an additional user right or two?
Aug 03 20:37:04 <Annemarie> Are you gonna do the same for sysadmins?
Aug 03 20:37:10 <Annemarie> What about people who know Python?
Aug 03 20:37:14 <Annemarie> Or stewards?
Aug 03 20:37:16 <Annemarie> It's just silly.
Aug 03 20:37:20 <Mike_lifeguard> Annemarie: If there's a specific and demonstrable reason to do so, yes.
Aug 03 20:37:26 <kmccoy> It quickly becomes a status game, where people try to accumulate various badges.
Aug 03 20:37:27 <Annemarie> Mike_lifeguard: But there isn't.
Aug 03 20:37:31 <Mike_lifeguard> You're assuming that.
Aug 03 20:37:37 * _jem_ has quit (Connection timed out)
Aug 03 20:37:39 <Annemarie> Oh, sorry, I'm new here.
Aug 03 20:37:42 <dungodung> kmccoy: I thought that happens regardles ;)
Aug 03 20:37:46 <martinp23_> surely the better solution is to just tell all checkusers/oversights to hilight the relevant stalkwords, and hope that they do. If they don't, get more checkusers/oversights and get more on IRC so that there is sufficient coverage.
Aug 03 20:37:52 <Romaine> a status game it sure will be
Aug 03 20:37:58 <martinp23_> You'll note that's what we do with ops instead of having autoop, and oh, it works.
Aug 03 20:37:59 <Mike_lifeguard> martinp23_: As well as joining the appropriate channels!
Aug 03 20:38:04 <martinp23_> indeed :p
Aug 03 20:38:05 * ^demon is now known as ^demon|away
Aug 03 20:38:07 <Annemarie> They can highlight stalkwords _or_ they can join a separate channel.
Aug 03 20:38:09 <Avruch> If you gave +v to CUs, OS, 'crats, etc. all in one channel - wouldn't that make the ID useless? Since no one would necessarily know what it indicated?
Aug 03 20:38:11 <Annemarie> Or they can do both.
Aug 03 20:38:14 <PeterSymonds> Well, the problem has generally been checkusers and oversighters actually being on IRC, not whether they're visible or not. The current elections should go some way towards solving that problem.
Aug 03 20:38:22 <schiste> Guys this kind of discussion would be much more effective on wiki ):
Aug 03 20:38:29 <kmccoy> In some channels it's useful, like -ops, especially to help users who are new. In other channel, it just becomes a status symbol.
Aug 03 20:38:35 <Avruch> With 5 groups of people granted +v, you'd still need to know individually what they are
Aug 03 20:38:37 <Annemarie> schiste: How so?
Aug 03 20:38:38 <Mike_lifeguard> I agree; we're apparently only concerned with enwiki 9_9
Aug 03 20:38:44 <Annemarie> kmccoy++
Aug 03 20:38:59 <Maximr> yes, let's all discuss the simple wikiquote ;-)
Aug 03 20:38:59 <Annemarie> Avruch: And most people don't need CUs or OSs.
Aug 03 20:39:00 * elapse has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Aug 03 20:39:11 <Danny_B> kmccoy++
Aug 03 20:39:16 * seanw sets mode +m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:39:33 * elapse (n=epsy@wikipedia/Prodego) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:40:03 <harej> So it's clearly a controversial idea.
Aug 03 20:40:14 <harej> I mentioned using +v to highlight specific functionaries as a means of visually indicating people who are willing to stand out and make themselves available for requests.
Aug 03 20:40:46 <harej> Is there a consensus, then, that stalk words work best? If not, what would be a better way?
Aug 03 20:40:48 <harej> unmute
Aug 03 20:40:52 <Rjd0060> I really don't think this is something we need to discuss here. The relevant channels/ops/owners and relevant users should discuss this and handle the issue in a way that best suits them.
Aug 03 20:40:55 * seanw sets mode -m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:41:01 <Maximr> do other chans do that sort of highlighting?
Aug 03 20:41:04 <Maximr> commons voices users with a Wikimedia cloak
Aug 03 20:41:05 <Annemarie> Stalkwords are fine.
Aug 03 20:41:08 <domas> I like status symbols
Aug 03 20:41:09 <Annemarie> A separate channel is fine.
Aug 03 20:41:18 <enhydra> stalkwords + bots
Aug 03 20:41:19 <Annemarie> domas is in here? How'd that happen?
Aug 03 20:41:21 <Maximr> would it make sense to to voice admins in channels like #wikipedia-en
Aug 03 20:41:28 <Annemarie> Maximr: No.
Aug 03 20:41:31 <kibble> Annemarie, he's been participating the whole meeting
Aug 03 20:41:31 <PeterSymonds> No.
Aug 03 20:41:33 <fluff> Annemarie: to find someone who can hide a revision can be more time critical then to solve a js-bug.
Aug 03 20:41:34 <Mike_lifeguard> Maximr: That's another case where Annemarie is right - there *isn't* any reason for that (note I've asked many times to nuke that nonsense)
Aug 03 20:41:41 <martinp23_> stalkwords work fine
Aug 03 20:41:41 <str4nd> Annemarie, he used /join
Aug 03 20:41:44 <Annemarie> fluff: So use the mailing list or a stalkword.
Aug 03 20:41:46 <martinp23_> (if you've got enough people stalking)
Aug 03 20:41:58 <domas> @ is great status indication, that you shouldn't annoy someone! :)
Aug 03 20:42:07 <martinp23_> on efnet maybe.
Aug 03 20:42:11 <Rjd0060> domas: just @domas :P
Aug 03 20:42:21 <enhydra> domas, +b is a great indication that this person is annoying…
Aug 03 20:42:23 <Annemarie> str4nd: Thanks. :D
Aug 03 20:42:26 * elapse has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Aug 03 20:42:37 <str4nd> Annemarie, You're welcome!
Aug 03 20:42:47 <Annemarie> Channels have an atmosphere.
Aug 03 20:42:48 <schiste> +b *@* would make my day
Aug 03 20:42:52 <Prodego> right, so anything else?
Aug 03 20:42:53 <Annemarie> By elevating certain users, you ruin that atmosphere.
Aug 03 20:42:55 <Prodego> are we done here?
Aug 03 20:43:03 <Mike_lifeguard> overdone
Aug 03 20:43:08 <Annemarie> Turkeys are done, artists are finished.
Aug 03 20:43:21 <Maximr> next topic
Aug 03 20:43:28 * martinp25 (i=4e2018a1@gateway/web/freenode/x-bodtaiwmnwgpdqge) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:43:28 <Annemarie> Hagger?
Aug 03 20:43:31 <dungodung> None
Aug 03 20:43:32 <Maximr> item 388,344,356,125
Aug 03 20:43:40 <Annemarie> NoneType error. :-(
Aug 03 20:43:44 <Fabexplosive> bye folks
Aug 03 20:43:46 <dungodung> NullPointerException
Aug 03 20:43:59 * seanw sets mode -m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:44:05 * ThreeSevenths (n=ThreeSev@exchngsvr.new-atom.net) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:44:08 * Fabexplosive has quit ("3,2,1... Booom!")
Aug 03 20:44:09 * seanw sets mode -m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:44:10 <Mentifisto> Annemarie: people are more addicted to WoW
Aug 03 20:44:10 <seanw> er
Aug 03 20:44:11 * seanw sets mode +m #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:44:19 * harej (n=chatzill@wikipedia/MessedRocker) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:44:24 <seanw> Okay then chaps, that rounds up everything on the agenda, given that this topic wasn't really achieving much
Aug 03 20:44:27 * elapse (n=epsy@wikipedia/Prodego) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:44:40 * Prodego has quit (Nick collision from services.)
Aug 03 20:44:47 <seanw> Please indicate now if you have anything you wish to bring up.
Aug 03 20:44:57 <seanw> That wasn't originally on the agenda, that is; please don't go over old ground.
Aug 03 20:45:05 * Prodego_ (n=Prodego@wikipedia/Prodego) has joined #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:45:34 * Dragonfly6-7 (email@example.com) has left #wikimedia-irc-meetings
Aug 03 20:46:25 <seanw> [20:47:06] <Avruch> Lets add into the official record: Woohoo for new group contacts ;
Aug 03 20:46:28 <seanw> Thanks :P
Aug 03 20:47:01 <seanw> Okay.
Aug 03 20:47:04 <seanw> No-one wants to say anything :)
Aug 03 20:47:31 <seanw> sec
Aug 03 20:47:48 <Rjd0060> Where are the door prizes?
Aug 03 20:48:48 <seanw> Sorry guys, just waiting on a few epople to tell me what they want to say in pm :)
Aug 03 20:50:37 <seanw> [20:51:23] <martinp23_> How will GCs be selected in future? How would you assess the selection process this time around?
Aug 03 20:50:46 <seanw> GCs, we can answer this directly.
Aug 03 20:51:44 * mgrabovsky has quit (Client Quit)
Aug 03 20:52:02 <Rjd0060> Given that I wasn't involved in the selection process last time, and you're the only one who can technically appoint new ones, that's your question. :)
Aug 03 20:52:25 <seanw> I would like to request that Martin ask us again when we have discussed this as a group.
Aug 03 20:52:44 <seanw> I myay be the only one with technical power, but I wouldn't exercise it without the group working on it unless I had to.
Aug 03 20:52:58 <seanw> So with that, we have come to the end of the meeting.
Aug 03 20:53:12 <seanw> Thank you for attending. We plan to have one every three months, so the next will be in November.
Aug 03 20:53:12 <Rjd0060> you could answer martin's second question
Aug 03 20:53:33 <seanw> The GCs have learnt a lot frmo this I think
Aug 03 20:53:41 <seanw> We're going to try and make the next meeting more useful than this - though this wasn't bad.
Aug 03 20:54:01 <seanw> Look for mailing list postings with thoughts/requests for thoughts.
Aug 03 20:54:15 <seanw> I'll unmoderate now for a) virtual refreshments b) any feedback on how we ran the meeting
Aug 03 20:54:30 <seanw> And thanks once again for being a great, idea-filled, constructive bunch of Wikimedians :)
Aug 03 20:54:35 * seanw sets mode -m #wikimedia-irc-meetings