IRC/Group Contacts/Meetings/July 2008/Log

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[2008-07-27 16:58:48] [INFO] Now logging.
[2008-07-27 16:58:53] <guillom> Warpath, yes, but I'm a bit away
[2008-07-27 16:59:09] <Warpath> James_F|Away, wakey wakey, hands of snakey O_O
[2008-07-27 16:59:15] <Rjd0060> logging started: Schroeder: Risker Mike_lifeguard guillom @Ryanposs KFP vishwin Antonio_Lopez Cobi Golbez GDonato Seddon t Not_the_NSA njan wimt pill kibble Brownout Rjd0060 Pilotguy Mitchell Warpath FrancoGG Az1568 wmfgcbot Tillie Luna-San Reedy @ChanServ Martinp23 werdan7 James_F|Away +seanw enhydra
[2008-07-27 16:59:16] *wimt* I'm sorry, but I'm away (Back shortly. Feel free to leave a message.)
[2008-07-27 16:59:22] <Not_the_NSA> Hello people reading this log!
[2008-07-27 16:59:23] <Warpath> \o/
[2008-07-27 16:59:27] <Golbez> HELLO WISCONSIN
[2008-07-27 16:59:29] <Seddon> Hello
[2008-07-27 16:59:30] <kibble> Rjd0060, make sure you ping the people who request pingings on the page
[2008-07-27 16:59:33] <Risker> hi
[2008-07-27 16:59:34] <Not_the_NSA> Hello World!
[2008-07-27 16:59:34] <mboverload> whut IRC problem?
[2008-07-27 16:59:36] * Antonio_Lopez likes logging
[2008-07-27 16:59:37] * FrancoGG waves
[2008-07-27 16:59:37] <Mike_lifeguard> omg what's happening?!
[2008-07-27 16:59:41] <Rjd0060> kibble: somebody else can :P
[2008-07-27 16:59:44] <mboverload> omg man the harpoons
[2008-07-27 16:59:45] <Seddon> Hello MOM :p
[2008-07-27 16:59:46] <Warpath> Hi Mum, I'm on IRC \o/
[2008-07-27 16:59:53] <Antonio_Lopez> Oh Ford
[2008-07-27 16:59:58] <Ryanposs> Right guys, just a couple more minutes - I'll do some pinging
[2008-07-27 16:59:58] <Martinp23> hi
[2008-07-27 17:00:02] * Not_the_NSA lols at what the beginning of this log is going to look like
[2008-07-27 17:00:04] <Warpath> seconds :)
[2008-07-27 17:00:05] <mboverload> Martin
[2008-07-27 17:00:09] <mboverload> Martin is that you?
[2008-07-27 17:00:10] <Not_the_NSA> Rjd0060: I suggest not logging jsut yet
[2008-07-27 17:00:17] <Warpath> Martinp23, James_F|Away get up ;)
[2008-07-27 17:00:20] <Martinp23> This is indeed me :)
[2008-07-27 17:00:22] <Schroeder> HELLO ROCHESTER
[2008-07-27 17:00:26] <Schroeder> HELLO, MISTER BENNIE!
[2008-07-27 17:00:57] <tj9991> I requested an IRC cloak and all I got was this lousy t-shirt
[2008-07-27 17:01:02] * mboverload dances
[2008-07-27 17:01:14] <mboverload> what the hell are we doing here lol
[2008-07-27 17:01:14] <kibble> seanw, we could call James if it were that important :o
[2008-07-27 17:01:17] * Warpath +L 69 :D
[2008-07-27 17:01:19] <Mike_lifeguard> seriously though - what are we doing?
[2008-07-27 17:01:35] <Mike_lifeguard> seanw> Meeting rearding the IRC situation in #wikimedia-irc starting now.
[2008-07-27 17:01:37] <Pilotguy> Mike_lifeguard: http://tinyurl.com/5rn9gz
[2008-07-27 17:01:38] <mboverload> What are we doing?
[2008-07-27 17:01:46] <Pilotguy> mboverload: http://tinyurl.com/5rn9gz
[2008-07-27 17:01:47] <Warpath> ITS TIME !! :D
[2008-07-27 17:01:52] <seanw> kibble, it's okay, I can handle it :P
[2008-07-27 17:02:07] * mboverload BANGS THE GAVEL FOR SILENCE -------------------------------------------------------
[2008-07-27 17:02:09] <kibble> seanw, I know you can, but it might look better to have both of you here :-)
[2008-07-27 17:02:12] <Golbez> i'll get the torches, you get the pitchforks
[2008-07-27 17:02:24] <seanw> kibble, alright alright IO'll text him
[2008-07-27 17:02:24] <Warpath> how long is this?
[2008-07-27 17:02:32] <Ryanposs> Ok, logging starts now
[2008-07-27 17:02:35] <Rjd0060> meeting started now, per Ryanposs
[2008-07-27 17:02:36] <Rjd0060> Alex_Rave dermi bjweeks CHG Midnighter AVRS Yamakiri tj9991 mboverload Schroeder Risker Mike_lifeguard guillom @Ryanposs KFP vishwin Antonio_Lopez Cobi Golbez GDonato Seddon t Not_the_NSA njan wimt pill kibble Brownout Rjd0060 Pilotguy Mitchell Warpath FrancoGG Az1568 wmfgcbot Tillie Luna-San Reedy @ChanServ Martinp23 werdan7 James_F|Away +seanw enhydra
[2008-07-27 17:02:41] <Not_the_NSA> Hello people reading this log!
[2008-07-27 17:02:43] <Not_the_NSA> Hello World!
[2008-07-27 17:02:47] <vishwin> ...
[2008-07-27 17:02:48] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc +m by Ryanposs
[2008-07-27 17:02:58] <Ryanposs> Well, firstly, many thanks for coming everyone. The aim of this meeting is to get communal thoughts on the current status of our group contacts and hopefully to come to a consensus about what should, if anything, be done about our current group contacts. Just to clarify the agenda, seanw is going to firstly give a speech about the role of the group contacts and the problems we’ve been having...
[2008-07-27 17:03:00] <Ryanposs> ...with cloaks. This part of the meeting will be +m to avoid interruption. After this, we’ll open it up and I’ll pose some questions that hopefully we can use as a starting base for discussion.
[2008-07-27 17:03:55] <Ryanposs> Ok, so seanw, if you could please give us your thoughts on the current GC situation.
[2008-07-27 17:04:04] <seanw> Thanks.
[2008-07-27 17:05:05] <seanw> James says he is en-route to computer now.
[2008-07-27 17:05:42] <seanw> So I'll try to make this as structured and as easy to read as possible. I'll first talk about what the GCs role is actually supposed to be. I'll then go on to what's been happening recently that's been causing confusion in the hope that I can stop said confusion. Then I'll give my reasons why I think we are okay with James and I as GC and try to explain why our inactivity isn't actually inactivity.
[2008-07-27 17:05:53] <seanw> All of this will follow onec I've had a moment to reply to James's text :D
[2008-07-27 17:07:12] <seanw> Right
[2008-07-27 17:07:33] <seanw> So basically GCs have two powers, and this applies to all GCs on freenode.
[2008-07-27 17:08:06] <seanw> Firstly, they can request cloaks. Secondly, they can takeover channels in their namespaces that are owned by the wrong people. For example if someone had #wikipedia who really shouldn't have, as a GC I could request a freenode staffer give me back control.
[2008-07-27 17:08:34] <seanw> The thing is, while we obviously make use of the first ability, we try to avoid the second if possible because then we'd end up micromanaging every IRC channel on freenode.
[2008-07-27 17:09:11] <seanw> We don't need to be in control of every channel, we just need to be there in case the people who do run the channels are causing havoc.
[2008-07-27 17:09:53] <seanw> So while we're always at the end of the dispute resolution process, we shouldn't actually be doing very much.
[2008-07-27 17:10:13] |<-- mboverload has left irc.freenode.net (Excess Flood)
[2008-07-27 17:10:22] <seanw> And this is why we may appear inactive: there isn't much that GCs need to do, channel oweners and ops should be running the show (of course I double as an op in a load of places, James doesn't do this actively, but that's seperate).
[2008-07-27 17:10:25] <seanw> BUT
[2008-07-27 17:10:47] <seanw> However inactive we appear, we are always on the end of an e-mail and will try to help *if it's something we should be doing*. Or we'll just point you somewhere down the chain of command, so to speak.
[2008-07-27 17:11:09] <seanw> Okay so that's the job description, now for the present situation update :)
[2008-07-27 17:12:00] <seanw> freenode realised a while back that we didn't actually have the right paperwork for the namespaces we claim control over. It seems when I was added as GC I should have filled in a form for Wikipedia, antoher for Wikibooks, another for Wiktionary etc. when I thought my Wikimedia form would cover them all.
[2008-07-27 17:12:34] <seanw> freenode say that they intend to find a shortcut through this to do everything on one form by talking directly to James. So we're waiting on freenode to do that.
[2008-07-27 17:12:44] |<-- Fireaxe888 has left irc.freenode.net (Client Quit)
[2008-07-27 17:13:30] <seanw> The issue is that, as many know, freenode has a HUGE backlog of forms to process.
[2008-07-27 17:13:56] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc +o James_F|Away by ChanServ
[2008-07-27 17:13:59] =-= James_F|Away is now known as James_F|Busy
[2008-07-27 17:14:06] =-= James_F|Busy is now known as James_F
[2008-07-27 17:14:14] |<-- Anthere2 has left irc.freenode.net (Client Quit)
[2008-07-27 17:14:27] <seanw> We're talking several years and several thousand forms.
[2008-07-27 17:14:43] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc +v James_F by James_F
[2008-07-27 17:14:47] <seanw> And trust me I know, I used to be on the end of the form mailing address.
[2008-07-27 17:14:48] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc -o James_F by James_F
[2008-07-27 17:15:10] <seanw> So we're waiting on freenode to restore us to full powers. At present, then, James and I are limited to the following
[2008-07-27 17:15:17] <seanw> I can do anything inside #wikimedia-* and set wikimedia/* cloaks
[2008-07-27 17:15:28] <seanw> He can do anything inside #wikipedia-* and can set wikipedia/* cloaks
[2008-07-27 17:15:47] <seanw> Now, that's what we've been explicitely granted until freenode redo the paperwork with us.
[2008-07-27 17:16:07] <seanw> Technically speaking James (or me) may have more namespaces. But for now, that's all we can safely use as that's been explicitely granted for the time being.
[2008-07-27 17:16:29] <seanw> I note a (silenced) intake of breath at the mention that James can set wikipedia/* cloaks and they haven't been set.
[2008-07-27 17:16:33] <seanw> That's because I only found that out this week.
[2008-07-27 17:16:52] <seanw> So as of after this meeting, I am going to go through with James how to use the cloak request system to only set wikipedia/* cloaks, and I will keep setting wikimedia/* cloaks.
[2008-07-27 17:17:14] <seanw> So all we can't set are wiktionary/*, wikimedia-commons/, wikibooks/ and the like.
[2008-07-27 17:17:37] <seanw> So that's the present situation. Cloaks are backlogged not due to inactivity, but due to us not being able to use most of our abilities.
[2008-07-27 17:17:51] <seanw> And after today, wikimedia/* and wikipedia/* are operational again.
[2008-07-27 17:17:57] <seanw> Right, final item of hot air..
[2008-07-27 17:18:01] |<-- mboverload has left irc.freenode.net (Excess Flood)
[2008-07-27 17:18:12] <seanw> Ah yes, inactivit.
[2008-07-27 17:18:17] <seanw> Well I've already dealt with that really.
[2008-07-27 17:18:23] <seanw> So to summarise
[2008-07-27 17:18:53] <seanw> * GCs are designed to set cloaks, and only step in to takeover channels when those already incharge are either inactive, or are abusive for some reason
[2008-07-27 17:19:02] <seanw> (I note this is not freenode wide, many other projects have godlike GCs)
[2008-07-27 17:19:13] <seanw> (we choose to do it like this because it generally works, and we do have a heck of a lot of channels)
[2008-07-27 17:19:15] |<-- Warpath has left irc.freenode.net (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
[2008-07-27 17:19:47] <seanw> * At present, only the wikimedia and wikipedia namespaces are under our control. This is set to change when freenode are able to sort out the paperwork - we're waiting on them.
[2008-07-27 17:20:05] <seanw> * We're not inactive, just reluctant to get involved in stuff that would lead to us micromanaging everything.
[2008-07-27 17:20:27] <seanw> And
[2008-07-27 17:20:55] <seanw> * We are always on the end of an e-mail. Even if I'm on wikibreak for school/exams, I never go on wikibreak for GC stuff.
[2008-07-27 17:20:59] <seanw> OH and one final word.
[2008-07-27 17:21:37] <seanw> Thank you so much to enhydra and Martinp23 for writing our amazing GC software, which just does cloaks now but will eventually do loads of other useful stuff. James and I have a big ideas list in that department :)
[2008-07-27 17:21:55] <seanw> Right.
[2008-07-27 17:21:59] <seanw> Ryanposs, that's all I've got to say.
[2008-07-27 17:22:06] <seanw> James_F, anything to note before we open up to the floor?@
[2008-07-27 17:22:12] <Ryanposs> Thanks Seanw
[2008-07-27 17:22:18] <James_F> Nothing in particular.
[2008-07-27 17:22:23] <Ryanposs> If you just hold back one second
[2008-07-27 17:22:40] <Ryanposs> I've got a couple of points to clarify before the meetings opened up....
[2008-07-27 17:22:55] <seanw> ooo an interview :D
[2008-07-27 17:24:03] <Ryanposs> You’ve certainly given us information there that we might not have known otherwise. Firstly, you mention that one of the roles of the GC’s is to set cloaks, and James has the ability to set Wikipedia cloaks. We all know that James is a very busy man, and to be honest, you are to – what are the realistic chances of the situation improving after this meeting? One point of frustration is the...
[2008-07-27 17:24:05] <Ryanposs> ...backlog for Wikimedia cloaks, even though there isn’t a current freenode problem there – would it be fair to say that the workload is too much for the current contacts?
[2008-07-27 17:24:38] <Ryanposs> This is a problem that's been going on for some time now
[2008-07-27 17:24:52] <James_F> Ryanposs> 8 months so far.
[2008-07-27 17:25:14] <seanw> Just a moment.
[2008-07-27 17:25:23] <seanw> Anthere2 just spoke through a +m.
[2008-07-27 17:25:25] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc +o seanw by ChanServ
[2008-07-27 17:25:44] <seanw> Or maybe not, I have a badly broken client, apologies.
[2008-07-27 17:25:53] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc -o seanw by ChanServ
[2008-07-27 17:26:07] <seanw> Ryanposs, right yeah I understnad the thing is, we only learnt he can set wikipedia *this week*
[2008-07-27 17:26:15] <seanw> So after today, as I say, that will be sorted.
[2008-07-27 17:26:21] <seanw> So it's only a minority of cloaks that now can't be set.
[2008-07-27 17:26:57] <seanw> And I should point out that before we lots our powers, cloak setting took me half an hour a week - hardly too much workload.
[2008-07-27 17:27:07] <seanw> Additionally
[2008-07-27 17:27:21] <seanw> Once we are powered up again, the backlog will be cleared in about as long as it takes for me to paste commands into a query with nickserv.
[2008-07-27 17:27:29] <seanw> So it won't tkae long.
[2008-07-27 17:28:12] <James_F> Yeah, the workload is very slight for us as people, because there's not much we can do.
[2008-07-27 17:28:31] <James_F> Having a third, fourth, or eightyeth GC wouldn't speed anything up more than a few hours at most.
[2008-07-27 17:28:33] <Ryanposs> But, it did take a while for people to get cloaks before we had problems
[2008-07-27 17:28:43] <Ryanposs> Yeah, it wasn't as bad as it is now, but I think the wait was 2 weeks when I applied for mine
[2008-07-27 17:28:53] <James_F> Ryanposs> Hence the new system, which is a great deal faster.
[2008-07-27 17:28:58] <seanw> Significantly.
[2008-07-27 17:29:04] <seanw> To do a batch of cloaks now takes about half an hour as said
[2008-07-27 17:29:09] <seanw> On the old system, it would be three times that.
[2008-07-27 17:29:12] <Ryanposs> Finally from me.....
[2008-07-27 17:29:16] <seanw> I'll give a little background if you like :)
[2008-07-27 17:29:18] <James_F> The old system involved me having a TextEdit list which I sent every day or so, if I was around.
[2008-07-27 17:29:33] <seanw> James_F, ha, I'm referring to the old php script I wrote :)
[2008-07-27 17:30:12] <seanw> Basically in the past I had to manually check someone's nickserv info to see if they had an e-mail and alt nick, then check their difflink to confirm their wiki identity, and then read a memo from them to confirm their irc identity.
[2008-07-27 17:30:53] <seanw> And now, I load up the system, scan the list for people who shouldn't get cloaks due to abuse, read any special instructions. Then I paste a list of info commands into a query with nickser and scan down the list to confirm that they're all set up correctly.
[2008-07-27 17:31:01] <Ryanposs> you mentioned the problems we're having are because of wrong forms being filed in - If we were to appoint a new contact, and the forms were filed in correctly, would that allow them to apply for cloaks quickly, or would they be put to the back of the queue?
[2008-07-27 17:31:01] <seanw> And send a memo to those who aren't./
[2008-07-27 17:31:13] <seanw> Those who are then get put into a new list of commands that sets the cloaks. Simple as that.
[2008-07-27 17:31:29] <seanw> Ryanposs, it would make no difference, they would be at the back of the queue as you suggest.
[2008-07-27 17:31:38] <Ryanposs> I see
[2008-07-27 17:31:44] <seanw> We;re in the same position as a thousand other people who have sent forms in.
[2008-07-27 17:31:57] <James_F> Which is really daft, but that's how it is.
[2008-07-27 17:31:58] <seanw> Except freenode have said they are willing to push us forward a bit because we are a large group.
[2008-07-27 17:33:16] <seanw> I want to make it clear that most of our problems are over as of this week now we have one person on each of the two biggest namespaces.
[2008-07-27 17:33:32] <seanw> There are a very small handful of cloaks that are outside these: a few wikibooks, a few commons.
[2008-07-27 17:33:47] <seanw> And in the meantime those can have their requests cancelled (just ask me) and they can request temporary wikimedia cloaks.
[2008-07-27 17:33:47] <Ryanposs> Well I'm done now, I think it would be good to open the channel up. The first point of discussion that I'd like to promote is on the informal authority of the GC's. They obviously have overall say in how the channel runs. Would it be better to have GC's who are extremely active on Wikimedia IRC channels? I'm not suggesting removing Sean or James, just simply having one or two extra GC's who...
[2008-07-27 17:33:49] <Ryanposs> ...are always around
[2008-07-27 17:34:04] <James_F> Ryanposs> To do what?
[2008-07-27 17:34:04] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc -m by Ryanposs
[2008-07-27 17:34:10] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc +m by Ryanposs
[2008-07-27 17:34:18] <Ryanposs> Sorry, I'll address this first
[2008-07-27 17:34:22] <James_F> (That can be answered by anyone, of course. :-))
[2008-07-27 17:34:57] <Ryanposs> Never mind, someone else can :-)
[2008-07-27 17:34:59] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc -m by Ryanposs
[2008-07-27 17:35:13] <SteveCrossin> dont all talk at once :)
[2008-07-27 17:35:15] <SB39|Editing> Ohh -m
[2008-07-27 17:35:22] <SB39|Editing> When do you expect the backlog to be cleared?
[2008-07-27 17:35:25] <njan> Ryanposs, anyone can have a say in how the channel is run; they don't need to have the GC role to do that. In a way, the GC role is just a tool to be used to carry out certain functions.
[2008-07-27 17:35:27] <gmaxwell> So, we've heard here that the root problem is, fundamentally, that freenode has a multi-year backlog. When we consider this along with freenode's historic reliability problems is it not time we considered moving to another network or starting our own? A prior group I worked with had problems with freenode spamming fundraiser notices when we were trying to use IRC to talk with donors, along with the historic reliability problems.. s
[2008-07-27 17:35:27] <gmaxwell> o we started our own network, which was successful and ran a number of years until the project wound down. Wiki(p|m)edia is a much larger group, and there are a lot of potential benefits to running our own, such as SUL integration.
[2008-07-27 17:35:37] <SB39|Editing> Woah.
[2008-07-27 17:35:42] <SteveCrossin> yeah woah
[2008-07-27 17:35:46] <t> gmaxwell: what reliability problems?
[2008-07-27 17:35:51] <Golbez> I thought you said you had these abilities. Now you talk about having to be "powered up again"?
[2008-07-27 17:36:01] <Golbez> When will that be?
[2008-07-27 17:36:05] <Martinp23> "historic" being the key word I think, on reliability.
[2008-07-27 17:36:10] <seanw> Melos, indeed
[2008-07-27 17:36:12] <Luna-San> It's odd to juxtapose "it's really easy to set these cloaks!" with "there's a massive cloaks backlog"...
[2008-07-27 17:36:16] <SB39|Editing> This convo kinda goes over my head SteveCrossin.
[2008-07-27 17:36:25] <gmaxwell> t: Frequent netsplits. It's pretty much a daily interruption from my perspective. Some days are worse than others.
[2008-07-27 17:36:25] <Ryanposs> Right, we've got two points to adress here
[2008-07-27 17:36:30] <James_F> Luna-San> It's easy, it's just not possible.
[2008-07-27 17:36:34] <SteveCrossin> SB39|Editing: this channel will go insane now its mode -m :|
[2008-07-27 17:36:38] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc +o seanw by ChanServ
[2008-07-27 17:36:40] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc +m by seanw
[2008-07-27 17:36:40] <t> gmaxwell: that's simply not true
[2008-07-27 17:36:46] <seanw> Okay let's answer those few.
[2008-07-27 17:36:51] <seanw> About moving network
[2008-07-27 17:37:21] <seanw> I personally have a unique perspective here as a freenode staffer and as a Wikimedia GC.
[2008-07-27 17:37:42] <seanw> Now, as staff, switching hats here for a moment, my jobs involve helping users out, solving disputes, removing troublesome bots, that kind of thing.
[2008-07-27 17:37:50] <seanw> I do not sysadmin the servers and make sure the routing is together.
[2008-07-27 17:38:19] <seanw> We have a team that do that, and they are very skilled at what they do.
[2008-07-27 17:38:33] <seanw> The point I am trying to make is that it is a lot greater undertaking than you might expect, if Wikimedia were to run it's own network.
[2008-07-27 17:38:35] <seanw> its*
[2008-07-27 17:38:38] |<-- Pilotguy has left irc.freenode.net (Nick collision from services.)
[2008-07-27 17:38:47] <seanw> Secondly, freenode do a lot for us.
[2008-07-27 17:39:29] <seanw> They provide wider connection limits for the toolserver, exemption from flood protection for our bots, a really decent set of services, a fantastic philosophy, and a staff that are responsive to everything quickly except GC forms.
[2008-07-27 17:39:43] <seanw> And all for free, and all enthusiastically and willingly.
[2008-07-27 17:39:45] <seanw> That's not half bad :)
[2008-07-27 17:40:04] <James_F> And, finally, though I guess to an extent Sean has a conflict of interest on this point, FN is the best fit for an IRC network for Wikimedia, in terms of other groups and people.
[2008-07-27 17:40:07] <seanw> In terms of reliability issues, can anyone honeslty say that in the past six months they have been dehabilitating, i.e. more than just an inconvenience.
[2008-07-27 17:40:18] <seanw> James_F, agreed, and yuo're right that is better coming from you :D
[2008-07-27 17:41:00] <seanw> And this continued use of backlog
[2008-07-27 17:41:13] <seanw> It's a backlog, but it's a huge amount of water behind a damm: once the damm is opened, it'll all happen at once very quickly.
[2008-07-27 17:41:23] <seanw> It's not a large pile of boxes with one person moving them.
[2008-07-27 17:41:43] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc -m by seanw
[2008-07-27 17:41:45] <seanw> Okay we're done.
[2008-07-27 17:42:02] <Alexfusco5> :)
[2008-07-27 17:42:05] =-= Pilotguy_ is now known as Pilotguy
[2008-07-27 17:42:11] <wimt> Just a couple of points in terms of network reliability. Firstly, I frequent a number of IRC networks and certainly freenode is easily the most reliable of those. Secondly, the evidence of irc.wikimedia.org, where WM hosts its own IRC server for the recent changes feed, is that it's particularly unreliable.
[2008-07-27 17:42:12] <seanw> gmaxwell, does that answer your questions? :)
[2008-07-27 17:42:12] <Ryanposs> Has anyone got any points to make about usiing another server?
[2008-07-27 17:42:28] <enhydra> Ryanposs, it has been discussed on Foundation-l widely some time ago
[2008-07-27 17:42:30] <Krimpet> I've got a question about channel contacts. Is it true that the deputy contacts and #wikipedia have been selected by one or both of you, seanw/James_F?
[2008-07-27 17:42:40] <Krimpet> er, *in #wikipedia
[2008-07-27 17:42:47] <Luna-San> I haven't thought of freenode as unstable, at least not recently. There's been netsplits, yeah, but the same is true on any network.
[2008-07-27 17:42:55] <Warpath> you mean Raul ?
[2008-07-27 17:43:02] <Platonides> would we really have routing problems?
[2008-07-27 17:43:07] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc +m by seanw
[2008-07-27 17:43:09] <seanw> Okay #wikipedia briefly.
[2008-07-27 17:43:15] <t> Platonides: if you had servers in more than one location then yes you would.
[2008-07-27 17:43:34] <James_F> Krimpet> We selected Mark Ryan; after that I've left it to him, as I trust his judgement, though of course we're here if Mark goes insane.
[2008-07-27 17:43:42] <seanw> Yeah that's it :)
[2008-07-27 17:43:48] <seanw> He decides everything below his level.
[2008-07-27 17:44:02] <seanw> We selected him because he'd long been a high level in the channel anyway.
[2008-07-27 17:44:13] <James_F> Though we advise, the concept is delegation, with distinct IRC communities (e.g. #wikipedia) running themselves.
[2008-07-27 17:44:33] <seanw> It could be argued that this isn't good.
[2008-07-27 17:44:40] <seanw> And it would be better with IRC gods running every channel.
[2008-07-27 17:45:00] <seanw> But Wikimedia has never been top-down like that so it would run contrary to how we run things on the projects.
[2008-07-27 17:45:10] <seanw> In fact that's a half-decent analogy
[2008-07-27 17:45:26] <seanw> The board (GCs) only step in on enwiki (#wikipedia) when there is a serious concern e.g. a legal one.
[2008-07-27 17:45:41] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc +v Krimpet by ChanServ
[2008-07-27 17:46:05] <seanw> Krimpet, does that help?
[2008-07-27 17:46:28] <Krimpet> Hmm. I know that this is how it works in theory. The thing is I remember Mark saying that the selection of Kelly as deputy contact last year was a decision from the group contacts.
[2008-07-27 17:46:44] <seanw> Ah.
[2008-07-27 17:46:53] <seanw> Well basically when we were fixing #wikipedia Mark James and I worked as a trio.
[2008-07-27 17:47:03] |<-- FrancoGG has left irc.freenode.net (Nick collision from services.)
[2008-07-27 17:47:10] <seanw> So it was the gruop of us. I can't remember who originally suggested it, but we all agreed.
[2008-07-27 17:47:18] <seanw> Mark is too modest :()
[2008-07-27 17:47:20] <seanw> :)*
[2008-07-27 17:47:34] <Krimpet> ah, OK. that makes sense, then. :)
[2008-07-27 17:48:04] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc -vm Krimpet by seanw
[2008-07-27 17:48:06] <seanw> Okay that's that.
[2008-07-27 17:48:20] <Ryanposs> I've got a question about the backlog. We've had a backlog with Wikimedia cloaks for a long time, but seanw, you've always been able to do these. I'm not really convinced that the only problem here is the form filling, I think a lot of it comes from inactivity. We've got 4(?) other staffers here who could do the job just as well, and I don't think there's much reason not to have outside help.
[2008-07-27 17:48:36] =-= Mitchell is now known as Greeves|away
[2008-07-27 17:48:57] <gmaxwell> And regarding wikipedia cloaks. If we've always had the ability to set them why did we think otherwise?
[2008-07-27 17:48:59] <miranda> I am wondering if there should be cloak requirements for editors...like for instance 50 edits on their home project to get a cloak. I know some projects do that on IRC, like debian and ubuntu.
[2008-07-27 17:49:03] <SB39|Editing> SteveCrossin: /me waits for chaos.
[2008-07-27 17:49:06] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc +m by seanw
[2008-07-27 17:49:09] <seanw> Right.
[2008-07-27 17:49:19] <James_F> Ryanposs> All the outstanding cloak requests are for ones we can't do (excepting the Wikipedia/ ones, which was a hideous mis-communication.)
[2008-07-27 17:49:27] <seanw> Not 100% true
[2008-07-27 17:49:37] <seanw> There are likely about six in the queue that are there since I last did a batch :)
[2008-07-27 17:49:39] <Ryanposs> James_F: We have had problems with wikimedia cloaks as well
[2008-07-27 17:49:58] <James_F> Ryanposs> We have?
[2008-07-27 17:49:59] <seanw> Wikimedia are set, I just don't do them every single day. They are set in batches.
[2008-07-27 17:50:25] <seanw> James_F, yes, a few weeks ago I basically ended up forgetting about wikimedia/ for a few weeks. This was foolish. It's not going to happen again, and it's not something more people can fix.
[2008-07-27 17:50:52] <Ryanposs> Looking back over the past 6 months, I've heard a number of users complaining about how long they've had to wait for Wikimedia cloaks - that's where my concern comes from
[2008-07-27 17:51:03] <seanw> Ah right okay I think I know why
[2008-07-27 17:51:26] <seanw> Another miscommunication: it took us a while to find out from freenode I still had wikimeida powers, I thouht I had nothing.
[2008-07-27 17:51:56] <seanw> Once I found out I had them again, they have been being set in regular batches.
[2008-07-27 17:52:52] <Ryanposs> seanw: If I may, I'd like to ask for outside opinions about this. I feel quite strongly that there's no harm having a couple of extra people giving out the cloaks - I don't think it harms anyone, and it could speed things up
[2008-07-27 17:52:55] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc -m by Ryanposs
[2008-07-27 17:52:57] <Rjd0060> Simply put, why are you (sean) and James so against the idea of adding one (+) additional contact? Surely it would not hurt anything, and the result could only be positive.
[2008-07-27 17:53:18] <gmaxwell> Will anything ever be done to the ease in getting cloaked user's IP (without forcing them to use TOR)? Right now you can /whois people and catch them at login, or wait for them to fall off and end up ghosted. Cloaks seem to be a false sense of security when it comes to hiding IPs, and this keeps some of our contributors off IRC.
[2008-07-27 17:53:26] |<-- Anthere2 has left irc.freenode.net ("This computer has gone to sleep")
[2008-07-27 17:53:32] <seanw> Okay Rjd0060 and Ryanposs I'll give my view
[2008-07-27 17:53:35] <James_F> Rjd0060> It slows down every decision (3 people, not 2) without speeding anything significantly up. We've tried this before, you may recall.
[2008-07-27 17:53:48] <gmaxwell> I'm still confused as to how we could not know what powers we had? Didn't you (SeanW and JamesF) try it?
[2008-07-27 17:53:52] <Prodego> gmaxwell: I don't think that is anything they can change at all
[2008-07-27 17:53:56] <t> gmaxwell: if you correctly configure your client then you shouldn't have a problem
[2008-07-27 17:53:58] <seanw> As well as slowing down as James says, it can lead to crossed wires.
[2008-07-27 17:54:07] <SB39|Editing> SteveCrossin: Now chaos.
[2008-07-27 17:54:14] <Luna-San> Why did it take an angry mob to get this simple news out?
[2008-07-27 17:54:17] <seanw> gmaxwell, it's not technical power, I have the literal power to set any cloak as a staffer, it's what we're allowed to do by the head of staff.
[2008-07-27 17:54:18] <James_F> gmaxwell> "Powers" = "we ask, FN say 'yes' or 'no'". We don't actually have commands.
[2008-07-27 17:54:21] <Rjd0060> seanw: James_F : If the people who use your channels are asking for this, and they see that it could be beneficial, why not even consider it?
[2008-07-27 17:54:21] <SteveCrossin> SB39|Editing: dont jinx it :)
[2008-07-27 17:54:37] <Krimpet> SB39|Editing, please stop, you're just contributing to the noise level. :/
[2008-07-27 17:54:46] <t> gmaxwell: however, with our new ircd there will be some additional authentication mechanisms that supporting clients will be able to take advantage of meaning they should be cloaked before joining channels far more often.
[2008-07-27 17:54:51] <seanw> Rjd0060, we have considered it at length, and we came to the conclusion tha tas James says it slows thing down, crosses wires, and doesn't add much for this potential of difficulty.
[2008-07-27 17:54:52] <SB39|Editing> I'm sorry.
[2008-07-27 17:54:54] <James_F> Luna-San> You've never asked me this once, even though we've spoken many times. Had you asked, I'd have told you immediately.
[2008-07-27 17:55:26] <James_F> Luna-San> And I wouldn't say that you lot are an "angry mob" - it's entirely understandable that you're frustrated. Believe me, I am too.
[2008-07-27 17:55:29] =-= Alexfusco5 is now known as Alexfusco5|Away
[2008-07-27 17:55:33] <Rjd0060> seanw: Can you just give an example when it would slow something down? I guess we really don't know the whole story . :)
[2008-07-27 17:55:35] <gmaxwell> seanw: If this is all human/human communication.. getting blessed to do certain things that you technically can do, why is there a form-processing delay?
[2008-07-27 17:55:36] <seanw> Seconded. This is useful.
[2008-07-27 17:55:50] <James_F> gmaxwell> Bureacracy.
[2008-07-27 17:55:53] <seanw> gmaxwell, bluntly, freenode are disorganised.
[2008-07-27 17:55:54] =-= CHG is now known as CHG_
[2008-07-27 17:56:01] <t> heh
[2008-07-27 17:56:03] <Pilotguy> Well, can anyone from freenode give an ETA of when the paperwork will be finalized?
[2008-07-27 17:56:14] <Luna-San> James_F: Fair enough. Should I query you inquiring about current goings-on daily, now? :p
[2008-07-27 17:56:14] <James_F> No. We ask every week or so.
[2008-07-27 17:56:23] * Warpath pokes t  :)
[2008-07-27 17:56:24] * Pilotguy nods
[2008-07-27 17:56:25] <James_F> Luna-San> If you want. I may get snappish, though. :-)
[2008-07-27 17:56:28] <seanw> Luna-San, feel free to either of us, but there is rarely much to say.
[2008-07-27 17:56:29] <Prodego> James_F, do you think they are actually working on it?
[2008-07-27 17:56:31] =-= CHG_ is now known as CHG
[2008-07-27 17:56:43] <VasilievVV> And why do freenode have a such level of bureaucracy?
[2008-07-27 17:56:45] <James_F> Prodego> I'm not sure it would be helpful for me to venture an opinion.
[2008-07-27 17:56:47] <seanw> Prodego, as staff yes we are.
[2008-07-27 17:56:54] <seanw> In fact
[2008-07-27 17:57:01] <seanw> A view from freendoe would be helpful about now if I may
[2008-07-27 17:57:04] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc +m by seanw
[2008-07-27 17:57:06] <James_F> Sean is more intimately familiar with the situation.
[2008-07-27 17:57:20] <seanw> The situation is that the system of forms is inefficient.
[2008-07-27 17:57:33] <seanw> We have a developer working on a more automated system.
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[2008-07-27 17:58:06] <seanw> I can't say much, but one of the reasons for switching to the new version of chanserv/nickserv/et al. is because I believe the new software is mroe modular and thus more automated features can be built in.
[2008-07-27 17:58:19] <seanw> Once this is in place.
[2008-07-27 17:58:24] <seanw> Then everything will speed up.
[2008-07-27 17:58:30] <seanw> t, anything to add there?
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[2008-07-27 17:58:42] |<-- Alexfusco5|Away has left irc.freenode.net (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[2008-07-27 17:59:27] <t> There's quite a bit I could add
[2008-07-27 17:59:32] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc +v t by t
[2008-07-27 17:59:35] * t coughs
[2008-07-27 17:59:49] <seanw> Yes.
[2008-07-27 17:59:50] <seanw> hehe
[2008-07-27 18:00:07] <seanw> t, you are more sure than me what is public and what isn't so anything you think is helpful, shoot.
[2008-07-27 18:01:01] <t> We're currently developing a system that will allow groups to manage their channels and cloak more effeciently and without so much staff involvment and also allow staff to more quickly process new group requests and changes to additional groups.
[2008-07-27 18:01:51] <t> The problems that you guys have had (or as much as I understand it) is that you've taken advantage (probably unintentionall) of having a freenode staff member on your staff which has allowed you to sidestep the current restrictions we have in place
[2008-07-27 18:02:39] <t> Which sadly has meant that when you were no longer able to sidestep the system it looks like you've had the powers you previously enjoyed yanked from you and everything feels a bit crap about it.
[2008-07-27 18:03:06] <t> I'm not aware of the special agreement we have to speed up the processing for you guys on a one off though, perhaps seanw is?
[2008-07-27 18:03:11] <James_F> lilo used to let us get away with lots of things, yes.
[2008-07-27 18:03:30] <seanw> Oh no agreement tomaw, just a point that our situation is understood and pitied :)
[2008-07-27 18:03:39] <t> Ah, fair enough
[2008-07-27 18:04:04] <seanw> About exploitation of position
[2008-07-27 18:04:32] <seanw> What happened was, James authorised me as GC and we *thought* I therefore had all projects. That's where we were wrong.
[2008-07-27 18:04:48] <seanw> I asked permission to use the fact that I was a staffer to speed up cloaking and that was okayed by freenode's head of staff.
[2008-07-27 18:04:59] <t> Doesn't that mean he still has what he had previously?
[2008-07-27 18:05:29] <James_F> t - except apparently lilo never filed the paperwork properly, because he just knew I was "OK" for the dozen groups.
[2008-07-27 18:05:50] <seanw> t, well yeah but no-one is sure what that is, so to stay on the safe side James and I are just having wikipedia and wikimedia respectively at present.
[2008-07-27 18:05:52] <t> I don't know the full details and had a 30 minute warning for this meeting so didn't have time to research properly
[2008-07-27 18:06:14] <seanw> t, okay thanks for that viewpoint, are we okay to open again?
[2008-07-27 18:06:55] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc -m by Ryanposs
[2008-07-27 18:06:56] <Rjd0060> James_F / seanw : Can you guys try and keep us more in the loop as to what is going on behind the scenes? All the info you've given today could have helped greatly had people known about it before. I think I read something about acting as a liaison ... more of that would be nice. :D
[2008-07-27 18:06:59] <James_F> t> Bluntly, no-one seems to know definitively what we are and are not official for.
[2008-07-27 18:07:12] <seanw> Rjd0060, yes that is very reasonable.
[2008-07-27 18:07:19] <James_F> Rjd0060> How would be best for you? Foundation-l?
[2008-07-27 18:07:32] <Warpath> IRC-l :)
[2008-07-27 18:07:33] <seanw> James_F, maybe a page on meta sort of like the log kept by the sysadmins?
[2008-07-27 18:07:39] <Rjd0060> No; but popping on and letting us know things would be nice, James_F
[2008-07-27 18:07:42] <Ryanposs> I was going to suggest that
[2008-07-27 18:07:44] <James_F> Rjd0060> I tell people individually/in groups on IRC, but that's evidently not worked enough for you lot.
[2008-07-27 18:07:44] <Luna-San> James_F: I'd suggest a page on meta. Topic notes for updates.
[2008-07-27 18:07:51] <sycle> how about the issue raised previously...the need for cloak requirements. I would and many others would like to hear about that, please.
[2008-07-27 18:07:53] <Ryanposs> and IRC noticeboard on meta would be good
[2008-07-27 18:07:54] <seanw> e.g. "processed 50 cloaks, earliest 5th May"
[2008-07-27 18:07:55] <James_F> Sean, Luna-San> Sure, that could work.
[2008-07-27 18:08:02] <vishwin> works
[2008-07-27 18:08:08] <seanw> Okay then, I'll set that up.
[2008-07-27 18:08:16] <James_F> Warpath> Might be a little low-traffic (hopfeully!).
[2008-07-27 18:08:22] <seanw> Making sure James rememers to use it however, is a different issue :P
[2008-07-27 18:08:28] <Warpath> XD
[2008-07-27 18:08:35] <James_F> Rjd0060> I'm on IRC pretty much every (UTC) evening.
[2008-07-27 18:08:36] <Prodego> In fairness, I would like to point out that if anyone had wanted to know a lot of this information, you could have just asked.
[2008-07-27 18:08:38] <t> James_F: right, if stuff was done somewhat unofficially with lilo then that could cause confusion now
[2008-07-27 18:08:41] * James_F grins at Sean.
[2008-07-27 18:08:52] =-= SB39|Editing is now known as SwirlBoy39
[2008-07-27 18:08:54] <Luna-San> The current forms situation is sticky, but I somehow doubt another person will cut through the paperwork any faster...
[2008-07-27 18:08:55] <enhydra> seanw, since we have a properly dated database, we can automate it fuly
[2008-07-27 18:08:57] <enhydra> fully*
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[2008-07-27 18:09:12] <Warpath> t, how long till the GCF error is fixed?
[2008-07-27 18:09:17] <Ryanposs> I still think another GC who is around all the time wouldn't hurt - people get frustrated when there's nobody around to ask how there cloak request is coming along
[2008-07-27 18:09:21] <Rjd0060> James_F: I wasn't accusing you :) I'm just saying, and I'm sure you'd agree, that the more we know, the better
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[2008-07-27 18:09:31] <James_F> enhydra> OK. In that case, please would everyone spam-vote to approve a bot for meta? ;-)
[2008-07-27 18:09:32] <t> Warpath: I don't process them and don't know currently what the hold up is
[2008-07-27 18:09:41] <Luna-San> Ryanposs: I think it's a bit more than cloaks, too. Granted that has been the emphasis.
[2008-07-27 18:09:47] =-= t is now known as tomaw_
[2008-07-27 18:09:48] <enhydra> James_F, why bot? hell no to unnecessary edits! :)
[2008-07-27 18:09:58] <Warpath> bummer :(
[2008-07-27 18:09:59] <gmaxwell> Rjd0060, being the guy who is around all the time would be a great incentive to not be around all the time anymore... Ya follow?
[2008-07-27 18:10:09] <enhydra> our page will be all-sufficient
[2008-07-27 18:10:10] <Ryanposs> Luna-San: Yeah, well sometimes people just want advice from a GC
[2008-07-27 18:10:24] <James_F> Warpath> Honestly, we'll be shouting for joy the moment we know. You'll hear about it as soon as we do.
[2008-07-27 18:10:25] <Pilotguy> Luna-San: It is
[2008-07-27 18:10:26] <Ryanposs> email is fine, but what's the point when the GC is running an IRC group?
[2008-07-27 18:10:30] <Prodego> That is an interesting question, does freenode have a policy that would prevent that? The current form to request a cloak is so automated a bot could easily do it.
[2008-07-27 18:10:33] <seanw> enhydra, true, we could get a bot going, I'll talk to you later :)
[2008-07-27 18:10:35] <Warpath> :DD
[2008-07-27 18:10:53] <enhydra> (later, yes)
[2008-07-27 18:11:13] * Warpath will ask christel to fix it faster :)
[2008-07-27 18:11:32] <James_F> Luna-San> The GC jobs are cloaks and court-of-last-resort when channels go nuts. Assuming cloaks are fixed, I'd hope that there's no need for us at all.
[2008-07-27 18:11:33] <Brownout> Prodego: I think it'll be easily abused
[2008-07-27 18:11:34] <seanw> Prodego, no automation on actual setting no, that would be sometihng freenode would never agree to.
[2008-07-27 18:11:53] <enhydra> seanw, not really
[2008-07-27 18:12:15] <Rjd0060> James_F: I agree with you that it doesn't seem like a 24/7 presence is necessary ... unless you are volunteering? ;)
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[2008-07-27 18:12:24] <enhydra> I would say that the end decision is taken by a human anyway. Other parts are partially automated
[2008-07-27 18:12:32] <seanw> *nods*
[2008-07-27 18:12:43] <seanw> I like to act as a balance to enhydra's desire to automate everything sometimes ;)
[2008-07-27 18:12:43] <tomaw_> seanw: potential automatation between GMS and project systems isn't out of the question
[2008-07-27 18:12:48] <James_F> Rjd0060> Been there, done that. I still get 'phone calls every now and then to fix something for Wikimedia. More is not something I'm looking for. :-)
[2008-07-27 18:12:50] <Mike_lifeguard> seanw: can bot cloaks can be done currently?
[2008-07-27 18:12:52] <Prodego> It could be reduced to clicking a button
[2008-07-27 18:13:12] <Rjd0060> James_F Understandable :) Maybe you should post a mobile # on meta someplace though 9.9
[2008-07-27 18:13:24] <James_F> Rjd0060> It's on there, I'm pretty sure.
[2008-07-27 18:13:26] <seanw> Oh yes bot cloaks
[2008-07-27 18:13:28] <Warpath> so seanw will you be willing to allow another freenods staffer i.e Martinp23 to help out with the cloaks ?
[2008-07-27 18:13:39] <seanw> Warpath, there's no point. It wouldn't speed things up at all.
[2008-07-27 18:14:00] <seanw> On bot cloaks
[2008-07-27 18:14:05] <seanw> I've suspended them due to all this mess at the moment.
[2008-07-27 18:14:12] <Warpath> well it definitely won't but ppl will stop blaming you :P
[2008-07-27 18:14:22] <enhydra> Prodego, if you are willing to write a bot that will pass our form, I would advise you to spend this week of your life in some better way
[2008-07-27 18:14:52] <seanw> Realistically there isn't much point in them remaining that way
[2008-07-27 18:14:53] <enhydra> Warpath, the set of blaming targets will extend, that is all. :)
[2008-07-27 18:14:56] <VasilievVV> seanw: is there an actual difference between bot and user cloak except that they are requested on the meta page?
[2008-07-27 18:14:57] <Prodego> there is no point if there is no one giving out cloaks (except for one variety)
[2008-07-27 18:15:00] <seanw> So I will probably start them up again.
[2008-07-27 18:15:07] <James_F> Warpath> They'll still blame me. They'll just make other people feel bad too. :-)
[2008-07-27 18:15:08] <seanw> VasilievVV, they look different :)
[2008-07-27 18:15:09] <Mike_lifeguard> Right, you said you had suspended them & I put up a notice to that effect. But if you can do wikimedia cloaks no problem, then why can't bot cloaks of that sort be done?
[2008-07-27 18:15:13] <Luna-San> James_F: I s'pose my main concern is that with you absent so often, you may run into some of the same problems Jimbo does, where you're forced to take dramatic action without necessarily being very familiar with what's going on in the community.
[2008-07-27 18:15:28] <VasilievVV> seanw: I meant procedural differences
[2008-07-27 18:15:33] <James_F> Luna-San> "So often"? I'm on almost every day.
[2008-07-27 18:15:39] <seanw> Mike_lifeguard, they can be done, but after the clarity over whta James and I can actually do, we can get them going again I guess.
[2008-07-27 18:15:47] <Warpath> better you than sean :P
[2008-07-27 18:15:51] * Warpath hides
[2008-07-27 18:15:51] <James_F> Luna-San> I was even on for five days in the past fortnight whilst in Egypt, for heavens' sake. :-)
[2008-07-27 18:16:05] <seanw> VasilievVV, only that one has to verify they have an owner.
[2008-07-27 18:16:06] <James_F> Warpath> Pah. :-)
[2008-07-27 18:16:08] * Mike_lifeguard adds yet another bot cloak request then XD
[2008-07-27 18:16:20] <Luna-San> James_F: You must lurk a LOT in channels I'm in, then. o.o
[2008-07-27 18:16:57] <James_F> Luna-San> Yes, I normally only find the private IRC channels that interesting (as other people know more than I unless I restrict membership of the channel unduly ;-)).
[2008-07-27 18:17:04] <Ryanposs> I've got something from Martinp23 that he's asked me to copy and paste - I'm going to pop the channel back on +m to allow sean and James chance to give their view
[2008-07-27 18:17:09] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc +m by Ryanposs
[2008-07-27 18:17:13] <Ryanposs> While the GCs advocate a rather "hands-off, let everyone get on with it" approach, I don't think this works on the ground... the problem I think may exist is that the channel contacts, superops and ops don't have a real job description and may feel that they lack the support of the GCs. That's not to say that the GCs should be watching everything, but I think they should be looking to...
[2008-07-27 18:17:16] <Ryanposs> ...nurture the channels by keeping up to date with events, rather than simply leaving things to go (or, as I'd suggest, leaving things to fester). The fish rots from the head, and my worry is that at times this fish has no head. ymmv!
[2008-07-27 18:18:40] <seanw> In my experience the reason why it doesn't always work is because people don't know what I've blahed about this evening.
[2008-07-27 18:18:47] <seanw> Which is obviously something we need to fix.
[2008-07-27 18:19:02] <seanw> Which hopefully this meeting will help with :)
[2008-07-27 18:19:21] <James_F> We try to keep in semi-regular contact will all of the major channels' contacts.
[2008-07-27 18:20:53] <Ryanposs> But, wouldn't greater presence mean that when you have to make tough decisions, they get more respect?
[2008-07-27 18:21:34] <Ryanposs> If I'm being honest, I'd much prefer to see Martin or Wimt make a tough call rather than someone who we barely see - that's obviously just my opinion
[2008-07-27 18:21:49] <seanw> And the point is that if martin ran #wikipedia, it would be him.
[2008-07-27 18:21:58] <Ryanposs> and this is the main reason why I think we need to add a GC who is up to date with the current goings on in IRC
[2008-07-27 18:22:03] <seanw> Those who run the actual individual channels make the tough decisions 99% of the time.
[2008-07-27 18:22:26] <seanw> There are very few decisions where our level of oversight is needed.
[2008-07-27 18:22:27] <James_F> Ryanposs> Decisions that are beyond the ability of a channel contact to make?
[2008-07-27 18:22:55] <Ryanposs> James_F: Well, yes - you agree that you're there to make them if they ever need making
[2008-07-27 18:23:02] <James_F> Ryanposs> To put it in WMF terms, "decisions beyond the ability of a project to decide, so the meta bureaucrats get to decide"?
[2008-07-27 18:23:06] <Ryanposs> there's times when we need more than the channel contact
[2008-07-27 18:23:15] |<-- Mike_lifeguard has left irc.freenode.net (Nick collision from services.)
[2008-07-27 18:23:16] <seanw> Stewards may be a better analogy.
[2008-07-27 18:23:42] <seanw> Ryanposs, can you give an example? Aside from removing inactive contacts from tiny channels, we barely use out non-cloak GC powers.
[2008-07-27 18:23:45] <Ryanposs> If I wanted to appeal a decision from a channel contact, I'd go to the group contact
[2008-07-27 18:24:00] <James_F> Ryanposs> Yes, that's what we're here for.
[2008-07-27 18:24:05] <James_F> And we get quite a few.
[2008-07-27 18:24:36] <Ryanposs> but..... I'd much prefer to go to them knowing that they're fully up to date with what's going on in Wikimedia channels
[2008-07-27 18:24:57] <Ryanposs> and I only know that from seeing them getting involved in channel discussion on a regular basis
[2008-07-27 18:25:01] <James_F> Which one? There are at least 100 to my count. And in which languages?
[2008-07-27 18:25:04] |<-- FrancoGG has left irc.freenode.net (SendQ exceeded)
[2008-07-27 18:25:25] <seanw> Many many more than that.
[2008-07-27 18:25:30] <James_F> Frankly, if we were going to add another GC, it /wouldn't/ be someone who only spoke English. We're far too English-centric as it is.
[2008-07-27 18:25:52] <Ryanposs> Of course, but a general presence in wikimedia channels
[2008-07-27 18:26:04] <Ryanposs> Anyway, I think people have some points to make on this, so I'll open it up
[2008-07-27 18:26:06] <James_F> And I note that almost all of the people taking part here are from three channels, all of them English Wikipedia ones. :-)
[2008-07-27 18:26:15] =-= Mode #wikimedia-irc -m by Ryanposs
[2008-07-27 18:26:23] <Martinp23> It's not really, imo, a matter of "using gc powers" as afforded to you by freenode. More a matter of providing some sort of solid leadership and giving people some confidence in the whole system.
[2008-07-27 18:26:33] =-= Prodego is now known as Prodego|away
[2008-07-27 18:26:41] <Martinp23> this is what I think is lacking though I could and may well be sorely mistaken
[2008-07-27 18:26:48] <Mike||gone> To what extent do you two decide who has ops in various channels? We have had a few instances where the ops were not readily available & those who were didn't have the powah - I wonder if such access might be rivisited for certain channels
[2008-07-27 18:26:52] <Pilotguy> You're not mistaken at all
[2008-07-27 18:26:54] =-= Mike||gone is now known as Mike_lifeguard
[2008-07-27 18:26:59] <tomaw_> Martinp23: That doesn't have to be done by people in the GC role
[2008-07-27 18:27:01] * Warpath is from 60..muhahaha :P
[2008-07-27 18:27:14] <James_F> Mike_lifeguard> Very little.
[2008-07-27 18:27:15] <Luna-San> I think Martinp23's concern is similar to mine, only phrased more eloquently.
[2008-07-27 18:27:22] <Pilotguy> Mike_lifeguard: The superops do
[2008-07-27 18:27:28] <seanw> But that;s not what we have
[2008-07-27 18:27:34] * Mike_lifeguard doesn't know who those people are :\
[2008-07-27 18:27:37] <seanw> Our channels are their own communities run by their own consensus.
[2008-07-27 18:27:50] <vishwin> yes!
[2008-07-27 18:27:53] <seanw> Trying to superimpose a few people all over the place isn't going to work.
[2008-07-27 18:27:58] <seanw> Which is why we do what we do because it generally does.
[2008-07-27 18:27:59] <James_F> Mike_lifeguard> We appoint a most a couple of superops if there aren't any, but I don't think it's a good idea to impose our personal views of "good people" on the communities.
[2008-07-27 18:28:01] <Martinp23> tomaw_: indeed, but there ought to be some structure. People look to the group contacts as being at the top of the tree, and there's little to suggest otherwise, and there's no really solid framework.
[2008-07-27 18:28:11] <Martinp23> Things sometimes seem quite cloak and dagger when it comes to irc.
[2008-07-27 18:28:43] <seanw> True, I'll give you that.
[2008-07-27 18:28:48] <Luna-San> So much is taken care of in private, it's hard to tell what's going on at times.
[2008-07-27 18:28:52] <seanw> Which the new GC noticeboard will hopefully avoid! *drumroll*
[2008-07-27 18:29:05] <Warpath> :D
[2008-07-27 18:29:06] <Luna-San> Hopefully! :3
[2008-07-27 18:29:13] <seanw> This is a very reaosnable criticism and I think James and I should indeed be better at messgenging.
[2008-07-27 18:29:19] <seanw> e.g. when we step in to change an inactive contact
[2008-07-27 18:29:35] * Rjd0060 imagines a huge banner on that noticeboard saying "DO NOT ASK FOR CLOAKS HERE" ... right, seanw ? :)
[2008-07-27 18:29:37] <Warpath> I'll make space for it on Meta's main page :P
[2008-07-27 18:29:54] <seanw> Ryanposs, of course :D
[2008-07-27 18:29:54] <James_F> Rjd0060> Like the one already there on the cloaks page? :-)
[2008-07-27 18:29:58] <seanw> er
[2008-07-27 18:30:01] <seanw> Rjd0060, of course :D
[2008-07-27 18:30:06] <Rjd0060> James_F: But it probably still happens :S
[2008-07-27 18:30:20] <Martinp23> I'm ambivalent about the need for more contacts. But I do feel that the current contact role may need fine-tuning based on what the community wants from it.
[2008-07-27 18:30:26] <James_F> Rjd0060> Indeed.
[2008-07-27 18:30:30] |<-- wmfgcbot has left irc.freenode.net (Remote closed the connection)
[2008-07-27 18:30:34] <Martinp23> :o
[2008-07-27 18:31:00] <mardetanha> seanw so will we get our cloaks from tomorow ?
[2008-07-27 18:31:15] <Warpath> is worth $2 now :(
[2008-07-27 18:31:17] <James_F> mardetanha> Hopefully.
[2008-07-27 18:31:25] <Rjd0060> Martinp23: maxim did it :|
[2008-07-27 18:31:35] <mardetanha> Thanks seanw
[2008-07-27 18:31:42] <mardetanha> *James_F
[2008-07-27 18:31:43] <mardetanha> :(
[2008-07-27 18:31:44] <Maximr> what did I do now?
[2008-07-27 18:31:49] <enhydra> James_F, is making 7 mouse clicks such a big deal? :)
[2008-07-27 18:31:59] <Rjd0060> broke his bots, Maximr ;)
[2008-07-27 18:32:01] <Warpath> hehe, yeah
[2008-07-27 18:32:03] <Martinp23> And I'm not sure what it is the community wants. I certainly want a more hands on approach, and I think some may share this view, but I can't speak for the whole community. I think the laissez faire approach does have its merits, but there is a balance to be struck and I feel we're off the mark.
[2008-07-27 18:32:09] <Maximr> :-)
[2008-07-27 18:32:13] <Warpath> that request form is a bot tricky :)
[2008-07-27 18:32:16] <Warpath> bit*
[2008-07-27 18:32:18] <Martinp23> It may be as much about politices and appeareances as anything...
[2008-07-27 18:32:20] <Ryanposs> I just want to see active GC's!
[2008-07-27 18:32:23] <Ryanposs> Simple as that
[2008-07-27 18:32:30] <seanw> I'll repeat myself.
[2008-07-27 18:32:45] <seanw> We're active :) Just that there isn;'t much to be active about. Which is because doing mroe wouldn't work as we've argued.
[2008-07-27 18:33:00] <Ryanposs> I mean active in the channels - I just don't see you two much
[2008-07-27 18:33:05] <James_F> Ryanposs> You have them. But you seem to want something more than active. You want active-and-speaking-to-you. :_)
[2008-07-27 18:33:26] <Yamakiri> Why are Wikimedia/pedia cloaks such a big deal in the first place?
[2008-07-27 18:33:27] <zocky> one problem that we have IMO is too many channels
[2008-07-27 18:33:32] <Ryanposs> Hmmmm, well possibly - Who knows if you read the logs!
[2008-07-27 18:33:39] <Warpath> yeah mainly its just "leave me a memo" :)
[2008-07-27 18:33:42] <enhydra> Yamakiri, ooh. do you need the conversation log from the beginning? :)
[2008-07-27 18:33:51] <Yamakiri> Probably
[2008-07-27 18:33:52] <Warpath> zocky, nope :)
[2008-07-27 18:33:53] <zocky> many people who are active in a few wikimedian channels never get to talk to people who are active a few other wikimedian channels
[2008-07-27 18:34:04] <seanw> zocky, very true.
[2008-07-27 18:34:11] <Warpath> too many channel not watched by the IRC Contacts is the problem :)s
[2008-07-27 18:34:42] =-= Prodego|away is now known as Prodego
[2008-07-27 18:34:55] <enhydra> Warpath, they can always be invited if they are needed. basically, they aren't.
[2008-07-27 18:35:00] =-= mardetanha is now known as mardetanha|away
[2008-07-27 18:36:28] <KFP> Don't worry Warpath, I'm keeping on you even if they aren't.
[2008-07-27 18:36:33] <Ryanposs> I think we're coming to a conclusion now if I'm being honest - we've had a lot of good information from Seanw and James_F - the page at meta should really help lower our concerns. I think some are still left unanswered - we've got a few promises here today, and I think we'll have to assess if they've been acted on down the road, but that's for another time I guess
[2008-07-27 18:36:44] <Ryanposs> Does anyone have anything else to add?
[2008-07-27 18:37:00] <Luna-San> Did we thank our contacts for coming?
[2008-07-27 18:37:02] <James_F> Can we do this semi-regularly?
[2008-07-27 18:37:08] <Luna-San> If not, we should. >.>;
[2008-07-27 18:37:13] <James_F> Like, maybe every month or so? "GC surgery"?
[2008-07-27 18:37:18] * SteveCrossin thanks the contacts for coming
[2008-07-27 18:37:19] <seanw> Yeah can I note, this is helpful on two fronts: we've heard the concerns over communication (which we will aim to resolve), and we've had an opportunity to clarify as much as possible.
[2008-07-27 18:37:20] <Luna-San> This meeting would have been super awkward without them.
[2008-07-27 18:37:22] <Ryanposs> James_F: A good idea
[2008-07-27 18:37:27] <Warpath> why didn;'t the 2 deputies, Mark and Dmcdevitt attend? O_O
[2008-07-27 18:37:36] <seanw> Warpath, tehy are just #wikipedia
[2008-07-27 18:37:40] <Prodego> busy?
[2008-07-27 18:37:43] <seanw> Yes, although I'd say once a month is a little frequent, we wouldn't have much to discuss 8)
[2008-07-27 18:37:45] <seanw> Maybe every two months.
[2008-07-27 18:38:00] <KFP> Or three, even.
[2008-07-27 18:38:02] <Luna-San> Periodic meetings in general might be interesting. Though I agree once monthly might be too often.
[2008-07-27 18:38:24] <Luna-San> Though I guess that depends on how a deal it is.
[2008-07-27 18:38:31] <enhydra> every second full moon would be fine.
[2008-07-27 18:38:33] <Luna-San> *how big
[2008-07-27 18:38:48] <Ryanposs> Right, every other month it is
[2008-07-27 18:38:56] <James_F> OK. Odd-numbered months.
[2008-07-27 18:38:59] <Warpath> or once a year ;)
[2008-07-27 18:39:09] <seanw> Odd numbered months sounds good.
[2008-07-27 18:39:11] <Ryanposs> The last Sunday or every odd numbered month at 5UTC?????
[2008-07-27 18:39:17] <Ryanposs> sound ok?
[2008-07-27 18:39:22] <seanw> Sounds fine to me.
[2008-07-27 18:39:25] <Warpath> every 8 weeks :)
[2008-07-27 18:39:37] <Risker> would that be 1700 UTC or 0500 UTC
[2008-07-27 18:39:38] <Rjd0060> 10-1am in the USA - fine for me personally, but for others?
[2008-07-27 18:39:40] <Luna-San> Easy enough to adjust the frequency as needed, too.
[2008-07-27 18:39:44] <Ryanposs> 1700
[2008-07-27 18:39:47] <Warpath> Ryanposs, bah your timing sucks, fix it ^_^
[2008-07-27 18:39:54] <Prodego> Every 4838400 seconds
[2008-07-27 18:39:56] <seanw> As usual we find that there is always going to be some timezone we exclude
[2008-07-27 18:40:04] <seanw> But we can edit each time if someone in particular has something they need to bring up.
[2008-07-27 18:40:06] <Warpath> yes the aussies this time
[2008-07-27 18:40:07] <Martinp23> or just decide at the end of each meeting?
[2008-07-27 18:40:09] <seanw> Ryanposs, are we done, then?
[2008-07-27 18:40:15] <James_F> 05:00 UTC would be a pain, certainly. :-)
[2008-07-27 18:40:20] <Martinp23> I reckon a month from now would be good, but maybe a longer interval after that.
[2008-07-27 18:40:20] <Warpath> so have it in different times pliz :)
[2008-07-27 18:40:23] * Rjd0060 stops logging when Ryanposs tells him to
[2008-07-27 18:40:24] * Martinp23 shuts up :p
[2008-07-27 18:40:37] <Warpath> how about 0:00 UTC :)
[2008-07-27 18:40:41] <seanw> Martinp23, we would of course call a meeting as soon as we heard more from fn.
[2008-07-27 18:40:45] <seanw> Or, there abouts.
[2008-07-27 18:40:50] <Martinp23> roger
[2008-07-27 18:40:50] <Ryanposs> Well, I guess all that is left to say is thanks to sean and James for coming, it's been much appreciated - thank you also to everyone else, we've had some useful thoughts out there tongiht
[2008-07-27 18:40:52] <Luna-San> This noticeboard page on meta could be used to set up agendas ahead of time, I suppose
[2008-07-27 18:40:55] <James_F> I'd like to take the opportunity to thank everyone for coming, and ask if people ping me (PM/memo/IM/GTalk/Skype/e-mail/wiki page) if they want something to do.
[2008-07-27 18:40:55] <seanw> Thanks everyone.
[2008-07-27 18:40:56] <Ryanposs> End of logging