IRC office hours/Office hours 2011-02-11
Session one: 15:00 - 16:00
And fostering partnerships and relationships with aligned organizations in the developing world to maximize impact (e.g. partnering with organizations with good logistics in Africa to distribute Wikipedia DVDs).
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Now that the positions are identified, are there any details on specific budgetary provision for global south?
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Looks like people are getting bumped for technical reasons.
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<grin> as you know I am into languages and the problem for many languages of the third world is that they are not properly supported
to what extend is it you who will consider such issues ??
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Whereas this is a technical question, I would not be deciding this. However:
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I would be in a position to learn about the greatest obstacles and communicate them to the tech team, and to advocate for prioritizing those problems.
The fact I have made my living as a software engineer until now might help. :)
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the problem is that many issues are outside of MediaWiki but without a willingness to consider them many languages will languish
Another part of my job would be to liaise with organizations about effecting change in ways that advance our mission. E.g. I am about to meet with Google's Project Manager for Sub-Saharan Africa, and hope to build a relationship that would allow collaboration on technical issues outside Mediawiki.
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By the way, corporations are not the only relevant organization. A determined group of students can hack up solutions as a university project, for instance. Especially in the free software world.
(are we having a Bad IRC Day?)
are you interested in a mail with some issues that you could raise ?
I think we are Asaf. :(
Yes, GerardM-, by all means. I can't promise delivery dates, but I'd love to have it ready to be raised whenever appropriate.
are you aware of the "Afrophone Wikis" <firstname.lastname@example.org>, mailing list (it is about issues re Africa and Wikipedia) ?
there are some outstanding people on there
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Asaf: just to make up for me missing the first half of the session and this being a slow day: what will be your job and responsibilities include under the heading "Head of Global South Relationships"?
no, I was not. Thanks for the tip, GerardM-
Hi Steven, sorry about Cyril
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So, about the Global South label...
Let me just say it's under discussion, and I hope to change it to something a little more meaningful (not to mention geographically correct).
I blame Jan-Bart. :)
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Asaf, shalom from Jerusalem
If the biggest challenge we have is getting the name right...we are in good shape :)
Global South is Africa and not Asia ?
But the idea is to be the primary point of contact for Wikimedians who want to do program work (chapter-like activities) in territories that don't have chapters yet.
With a particular emphasis on the developing world.
have hardly any activity
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I expect to be handling many regions in Asia as well.
Global South is part of Asia that is developing
Wikipedia provides a definition - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-South_divide
what countries would they be ?
Note that my role complements Moushira's, who will be in touch with existing, established chapters.
Probably too many to list in a single sitting GerardM- ;)
I take it it excludes India
Hey Moushira - do you want to share a bit about your role?
(/me liked xkcd's definition best http://xkcd.com/753/) :P
He GerardM, that would be because we have an approved and registered chapter.
Not at all. I expect to have a lot to do with India. Of course, Hisham will be "on the ground" in India, so there will be some sharing of responsibility there.
bnewstead: thanks, that was going to be my next question
So, basically my job is to make sure communication channels between WMF and chaptes are clear and
make sure that chapters and foundation are on the same page with regard to their mutual commitments towards the movement ..
and that reporting is done in timely manner by both WMF and chapters in order to move FWD, with a positive attitude, with whatever needs to be progressed.
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i actually made it, though iv missed most of it
thanks Steven ;)
Hey Seddon, we've had tech issues with IRC, so you haven't missed a huge amount actually. We just heard Asaf and Moushira describe their roles some more.
If you have any questions throw them out here :)
Let me repeat my question. Now that the positions are identified, are there any details on specific budgetary provision for global south?
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arjunaraoc: Do you want to clarify a little bit?
Do you mean within Barry's department, the Foundation as a whole, etc.?
StevenW: Details on fund breakup for foundation activities for example in India.
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Okay, I think Barry can take that question arjunaraoc
We will start our budget process for the next fiscal year next month...
so my thoughts here are preliminary.
hello, sorry i am late, i would like to know about the activities in the Global South to make a difference
Got it Ziko.
Barry's going to answer a budgeting question first though, okay? :)
We will continue to expand our grantmaking program...
that will provide funds for people with good programs in support of the movement priorities in the GS/DW
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We will also support our team in India...as well as Brazil (once we have a strategy there)
I can't speak definitively, but our tech team will also spend resources to support localization, which will make a difference in the GS/DW
One more: We are currently supporting offline efforts and will do more of that...along with efforts to expand reach via mobiles. In sum, lots to do and heavily focus on the GS/DW
esp. in India on tech localization. Danese, Alolita and Erik got a lot of good information during their visit about the many issues for Indian localization in particular.
Ziko, do you want to restate your question?
hi, i am curious about
the concrete actions taken
to support the Global south
Whoa, big question I think.
so paying editors it won't be, also not taking away the tasks of the chapter
So it sounds like you'd like a broad overview of the current plan of action?
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yes, or the most urgent
Hello, I'm from Bangladesh, and we'd like to form a chapter in Bangladesh, can foundation provide us the required help?
Re 'concrete actions' it would be fair to say I am not yet a WMF employee (I gave notice at previous employer, and it would take a couple of weeks more), and we're still discussing concrete actions.
Much of the first few weeks would not doubt consist of getting the lay of the land -- rallying the knowledge we already have, prioritizing, distinguishing between important and urgent, etc.
Maybe Barry can describe the general Foundation work that is/will be done, in terms of the kinds of activities.
Sounds like that's what Ziko is curious about.
Here are some concrete actions: We have been supporting community building in India.
Tanvir: yes, we can. Stay tuned!
yes - by the way, a thorough report about the current status of the global south would already be interesting also for researchers
This includes a grant to community members who aim to launch community groups in a range of cities.
We are working on the design of an initiative focused on colleges and universities i nthe developing world, taking learning from the Public Policy Initiative in the US.
We need help. Bangladesh has 160 million Bengali speakers which are great potentiality to develop Bengali projects.. But unfortunately we have fewer contributors.
Tanvir, we won't forget your question BTW.
StevenW, no I didn't.
Our catalyst work in India, Brazil will focus on tangible programs to support community growth.
Finally, the grantmaking program will continue to grow with an emphasis on working with communities in the GS/DW to implement effective programs.
Thanks Barry. Maybe we can talk about Tanvir's question re: creating a Bangladesh chapter?
Tanvir: yes we can, indeed ;)
Hello Tanvir: It would be great to have a chapter in Bangladesh. There are a range of parties that can help...first and foremost ChapCom
and we've already been in touch ;)
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As bncommunity is so small (we've 5-10 interested persons), it's hard to to everything all by ourselves.
Asaf can help you work on programs that grow the community and we might be able to fund that work. One does not need to wait to form a chapter to start programs.
And I stress: you can do a whole lot of Wikimedian program work before/without registering a chapter.
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We need guidance and other supports.
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We arrange workshops quite regularly.
will you, asaf, be involved with the content in any way`?
Tanvir: I'd love to have a chat/Skype and offer some advice.
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Asaf, that's perfect for me.
Ziko_: the content of Wikipedia?
yes, of a specific language edition
Tanvir: reach me at email@example.com
for example, giving advice whether it is developping in the wrong direction
Ziko_: I don't expect so.
wow-Mubarak stepped down
Ziko_: I do expect we shall be quite interested in "community health", and we shall be trying to apply lessons learned
indeed I just heard it as well
We're going to continue for a few minutes past the hour since we started late and there were IRC problems, so if anyone has any burning questions now is the time to ask.
Wow - amazing news from Egypt!
Ziko_: ...from other Wikipedias, bearing in mind that what works at enwp or ruwp doesn't automatically transfer to other languages and communities.
Asaf: I just thought that you might talk to university professors and they say that they would love bn.wp more if they would do this or that
speaking of Egypt, Moushira, how are things there, and are you okay?
[08:06am] • Asaf
was upstaged by a tyrant :)
<grin> If she is away partying I respect that
special day for me :-)
+1 to eekim's question. :)
Asaf, it happens :-)
Asaf, you've been a volunteer for a long time, and a very active one to boot, especially within WM IL, how do you envisage the transition from chapter volunteer to WMF staff?.
Thanks for asking eekim. Am fine..and we are all still pushing :)
Her status on G-chat has been entertaining through it ;)
Ziko_: if I get that message when talking to e.g. university professors, I would certainly relay it to the community, and I might give advice or point at existing resources that have addressed similar concerns elsewhere. In any event, neither I nor anyone in the Foundation would ever _dictate_ any change in the projects.
very glad to hear that, Moushira. we're all thinking of you and everyone in Egypt.
Asaf: of course, i know
Barry: About the India office, any idea when we are likely to see it open?
delphine: thanks for asking this; I'm sure others are curious.
[08:09am] • Theo10011
waves at eekim
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We will make an announcement on India early next week. The official formation of the office (from a legal perspective) may take several more months, but we aren't waiting for that. We're getting to work - as you've seen.
delphine: I am excited about making this transition. The job opening at the WMF came at a time when I had been thinking about making a change in my life: I had been frustrated at not being able to devote as much time as I'd like to my voluntary activities, because of the day job. I had been pondering ways to leave the "golden cage" of software engineering to do things I am more passionate about, while still making a living.
I'll be back in India...again...I know you are getting sick of me from Feb 23-25.
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delphine: Even at WMIL, I have always been involved with inter-chapter relations and interested in the goings-on across the movement. So the transition is not as radical as it might otherwise have been.
I am not.
Thanks theo :)
looking forward to seeing you soon.
delphine: And I do not find it difficult to "switch" to the perspective of the Foundation rather than of a chapter member, because I have been comfortable with the Foundation's stance as a chapter member too.
delphine: does that answer the question?
Asaf are you planning on visiting India in the near future?
yes, it does. Ya know, been there, done that ;)
[08:13am] • delphine
is now off
I don't have a trip to India scheduled yet, but something tells me the answer is nevertheless yes. :)
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[08:13am] • delphine_away
est partie pêcher / has gone fishing
And I'll be at the chapters conference in Berlin, of course.
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We'll get Asaf to India soon enough.
We should probably wrap up.
We do have the second office hours today if you think of anything more. :)
I have a question
Go for it brest
Thanks all for joining and let me say again how thrilled we are to have Asaf and Moushira join us...and it is cool that we had this chat on such an historic moment in Egypt. Warmest wishes!
Sorry brest...still here.
WMMK have a chance to be coorganizer of event in Macedonia
and we need some from WMF to be our guest
through video makes all the difference ;)
Thanks Barry....he just stepped down :) This IRC chat has been a good omen
is it posiblle
brest: should be, send me an email and we can work on it.
brest: we can probably take this conversation offline?
about 15 minutes video speach and 15-30 minutues questions
thx for the Q&A, and congrats to Asaf and Moushira! great to see everybody here!
Can I just say it's sort of amazing that while Mubarak stepped down, we're in IRC talking about the new jobs of an Egyptian and an Israeli that got hired to collaborate on stuff for Wikimedia?
thanks eekim: great to see you here too!
Thanks, everyone. Here's to freedom, and not just of knowledge! ;)
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I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy
StevenW: that it is!
hear, hear :-)
See you all soon.
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Yeah, I'll see some of you later for the next office hours.
Session two: 22:00 - 23:00
so we're about ready to start
I'm just going to spam the other channels ;)
But Barry, Asaf, are all here already Moushira are here already
Hi everyone! Nice to be chatting with you on a Friday night/afternoon.
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[2:06pm] • Asaf
The agenda for this IRC is to welcome Asaf and Moushira to the WMF team and to discuss any questions or comments you have relating to our chapters work.
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[2:07pm] • brion_
waves hi to Asaf and Moushira
First - welcome ASAF and MOUSHIRA! Would you each do a quick intro to your roles.
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I will be working on fostering the growth and development of the Wikimedia movement in the developing world.
This would involve plenty of communication with nascent groups of Wikimedians, especially where chapters do not yet exist,
and may not exist for some time, or ever.
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I will be responsible for the Wikimedia Foundation grants program,
oh? can I have a 20 then?
supporting Wikimedians in executing programs ("chapter-like activities") wherever they are, with funds and ad-hoc permission to use the trademarks.
LOL - Welcome to grantmaking Asaf.
that'll do for a start. Moushira?
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[2:14pm] • Asaf
proposes a toast to freedom
[2:14pm] • Moushira
[2:14pm] • ChristineM
toasts with her can of Fresca
[2:15pm] • Ainali
toasts to everybody
[2:15pm] • StevenW
also proposes that we open it up to questions now. :)
yeah, this is a good day for Freedom :)
[2:15pm] • Asaf
mutters "sic semper tyrannis" under his breath
I do have a broad question from Risker in advance, but we can throw that in anytime
yes, let's have questions.
Asaf, Moushira: Will you be doing any investigating as to whether some areas can benefit from technical improvements to the site? I know there's been some plans with the India groups in this area (fonts & input methods)
Good question, either of you want to take it?
[2:16pm] • Anthere
is trying to read the log of the first meeting of the day, with the long explanations by Asaf
Cool, go for it.
[2:16pm] • Ainali
thinks that was an excellent question
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I haven't had a chance to catch up with the insights gained by Danese and Erik on their recent visit to India,
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brion as a member of the India group, I am not certain what you're referring to, mind clarifying a bit?
and I expect there's plenty of work coming out of that,
hi Asaf and Moushira !
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the Most I've heard for font support is from GerardM :)
but I hope that my own technical background (this job at the WMF marks a sharp career change for me -- I have been making a living in software) would help recognize situations where technical improvements,
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both to Mediawiki and to other vendor products, would make a difference in our mission.
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Theo10011: I don't know too many details, but I know it's something Danese has brought up in conversation. May be more on the planned dev group side
I foresee some discussions with Google, Microsoft, etc., on specific features that could help our mission in the developing world.
[2:18pm] • Asaf
waves to aude
I haven't been privy to any discussion openly on the India mailing list along those lines.
(and I'm counting on GerardM to remind/goad me whenever I seem to have lost that particular thread...;))
Does that answer your question brion?
Hey SWATjester :)
StevenW: sounds good for now :D
Can I ask a question then?
"an introduction to the new roles Asaf and Moushira will be taking" please
Chzz you missed that
Go ahead Sven_Manguard
Do either of your activities deal directly or indirectly with the issue of editor recruitment? The current numbers are... /distressing/ in regards to the numbers of active editors and the ration between editors and articles.
Sven_Manguard ah, apols; will find. ta.
sven_manguard: yes, you can have a 20.
I guess what I'm asking is are we putting resources directly into recruitment?
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Editor recruitment is central to all of the work we are doing at WMF.
Peter, do you have logs from the previous chat in here today?
It seems no one has posted anything.
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Killion there's another office hour going on right now.
I only joined a few minutes ago.
Theo, can't hear; obvicopters too loud.
speaking for myself, if in dialogue with an editor community, I see that the number of editors is the main obstacle for growth of that community, then yes, I would see it as my job to offer advice and resources on addressing that issue, no doubt in collaboration with, or even just referral to, the Community dept. at the Foundation.
No I didn't post it yet. Mostly because it's okay if there's some overlap
For the Global Development team and for our partnership with chapters, we will focus on outreach work that brings new editors into the community - most certainly.
Question/Suggestion: (enwiki centric accepted) Can WMF gather stats on -how many new articles are created in a day, how many are deleted (speedily, or otherwise), how many are vandalism/useless? We kinda need to know this stuff, and nobody is getting the stats; there's much speculation. Need figures - and I think that is someth WMF could help with
To address that Chzz and the numbers Sven is talking about...
Chzz, I think that might involve the forcible kidnapping of a developer or two.
I can say that I think that it depends on exactly what stats/research you're considering
quite a bit is published monthly on stats.wikimedia.org
but the Editor Trends Study (on strategy wiki) by Howie Fung and others...
Sven_Manguard: Probably not, just compare all the new articles during the day with the increase of articles on the wiki everyday
I think chzz was kind of specific on his question. :-P
vandalism/useless article is somehow subjective and hence not suitable for machine detection i am afraid
is going to be described more soon, and that has a lot of detailed research about the amount of editors coming and going, etc.
StevenW I think we need to look more in-depth than automatic; we have no idea (AFAIK) how many new articles on enwiki survive for > a month; or, how many are 'utter crap' and how many can be saved. It needs human assessment
Sven_Manguard: We have a pretty good idea of this at the svwp
but Erik Zachte gave a presentation on reverted article stats in Gdansk
Chzz, that's true.
Ainali I think many of us think we have a 'pretty good idea' - but, simply, we do not actually *know*
britty it's not as subjective on en:wp, Cluebot does several thousands reverts a day
Well we have some data too :)
Chzz: The systematic collection of data for the management of the projects and of WMF is a priority. There are a number of initiatives underway from a technical perspective and data research perspective to improve our collective understanding of what is happening in the projects.
not to make an arse of myself, but I think that there are people here looking for specifics and we're getting lots of general information. I know you are new and not settled in, but broad statements, well, are not that useful.
on an average 50% of the articles does not survive 24 hours
yeah, they are stats we'd love to have but very tough to get. New articles is easy, we could probably even get how long they survive relatively easily it's the assessment that becomes harder
I mean it depends on what you're looking for.
50%? I'd have expected it to be higer.
There has been the recent discussion about editor trends and the gender skew on Wikipedia
bnewstead The stats I mentioned could be gathered with about 10 man-hours of effort, for enwiki. That's all it needs; really. Look at a typical day, check all new articles, and give a summary report (with linkage and detail attached)
some data might be pertinent to those areas as well
It sounds like research and stats is a good topic for next week in another office hours
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when can we expect the data? who do we ask specifically for it? as to my question, are there any programs in place? are they successful? Please be specific.
well we can be too sure if it's old articles taht get deleted
[2:28pm] • aude
thinks the stats are doable to generate
You should send the request to the wikitech-l mailing list.
Hi Aude :-)
let's not get bogged down with "some time", "discuss later"? can we, for once, just get some actual thing happening, perhaps?
someone there with toolserver access will likely create a report for you.
but we should probably stick to chapters and global development, considering that most of the people who can give comprehensive answers about research... the rest of Communtiy Dept. Howie Erik Zachte etc aren't here
jorm it's not tech though - needs humans
yes, I second Chzz
hence why i said, "send the request to the wikitech-l list".
(Hey guys. Sorry I am late. I'm assuming the chat's already started: it's Barry Asaf & Moushira, right?)
Okay, great :-)
Yes - welcome Sue
StevenW with respect: to develop, "globally", first it is necessary to know where we are. So we can tell when we move forwards.
that's a human mailing list, and someone there will possibly run the query for you.
Hey Barry :-)
you missed the freedom celebration sgardner.
demise of Egypt regime.
I find chzz's last comment to have some merit.
[2:29pm] • Asaf
suggests we focus on questions Moushira and I can answer :)
i wondered who is this bnewstead Silly me: ;)
Agreed, but +1 to Asaf's comment. :)
jorm I have toolserv. Doesn't help. Really, needs some WMF people to just...well, as I said - won't take long, honest. Can't we just maybe make this some 'task' and for once, get it done?
[2:30pm] • britty
agree w/ Asaf
I have one that is complex and pretty important from Risker that she wanted me to ask, so I'm going to put in
give me a sec
I haven't seen her on IRC in ages
killiondude: thx :)
The basic topic is chapter development sub-nationally
good people risker is
but the sort of four part question is...
I worry that #wikimedia meetings cause too much global warming, from all the hot air; nothing ever actually gets *decided*.
Are there any issues from the WMF perspective if a subnational geographic region wishes to establish a chapter? ...
+1 for subnational chapters
What are the differences in the way that the WMF would work with such a subnational chapter? In particular, how could they participate with the fundraising end of things?
Is the response to this question different depending on whether or not there is an existing national chapter?
If a national chapter is recognized subsequent to the recognition of a subnational chapter, will there be a change in the relationship with the subnational chapter?
I would like to hear how WMF think on "relevant groups"
Lots of interrelated stuff there, but that's the raw questions.
like ones aude or I've been involved
Steven, would this be like if there became a United States chapter, would it supercede the NY chapter?
That's part of it.
hold on a tic. We're moving on yet again, with no resolution. This is a bit futile. For these meetings to be effective, we need to close off issues w/ action points; things to get back to next time. No? just me?
Risker was specifically asking about Canada
Answer to part 1: WMF has no issues with subnational chapters in general.
Chzz, which point would you like closure to? Also, welcome to office hours!
Chzz: the proposed topic beforehand was chapters, global development, and introducing Asaf and Moushira
we should stick to that
We don't really get too involved with chapter recognition issues though; mostly a ChapCom question
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Part 2: Fundraising? This is trickier at a subnational level...don't really have an answer.
StevenW OK. Sticking on-topic then: Asaf Bartov Head of Global South Relationships, Moushira Elamrawy =Chapter Relations Manager. So - to imrpove Global South relationships, and develop chapter relations - can we please get WMF to look at some baseline stats, so we can tell if things are working or not?
I think I've asked before if there's any tangible results that chapters have helped the WMF's goal. (What metrics are used to see if they are helping, etc)
BTW, someone pls tell me what "Global South" is, 'coz the term makes my brain hurt
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That's a great question (the first one Chzz). We should talk about how we're measuring, or how we're going to measure, results for this stuff.
I suggest a ruler
Chzz, my question still remains thx: what does WMF think about non-chapter groups like WiKansai, Catalan one and so on?
or a scale
Chzz: Wholeheartedly agree. We have hired Mani Pande to work on global dev research and she's been pushing to understand our positioning. First work was to create an India dashboard.
It's a buzzword for Africa.
Let's answer them one at a time.
[2:37pm] dami_hun left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
Sounds like a plan.
How can 'South' be 'Global'?
I'll add that part of the thinking about global development is that "the chapter model" is probably not the best tool for every territory.
britty - or Scientologists. :)
and we'll be looking into alternatives.
barry, it feels like most participants here are more interested by the chapter and outreach discussion than by the fundraising discussion
maybe that's too many topic for one meeting ;)
re Global South. I was the first to express pain at this infelicitous term. Please consider it temporary; we're hoping to involve the community in picking a better term.
hiya Flo: I agree
I don't know if Chapters *accomplish anything*. Other than fundraising and having meetups. :-P
Asaf I don't mind what you're called; I just don't know what your remit is
killiondude I know chaoters DO accomplish things
killiondude: I urge everyone to look at chapter reports -- they do a lot more than fundraising.
Anthere: sure might have too much on. Can schedule time for fundraising next week if we need to.
killiondude, I promise some chapters DO accomplish things
I could give some examples from my WMIL work.
killiondude - getting trashed and hitting on babes
Asaf that's a redirect. hmm. That speaks volumes, really.
barry, it would be lovely :)
CAPS MAKES YOUR POINT BETTER.
wikiportret wiki loves art wiki loves monuments ... just the nl.chapter
No they don't, not here.
Ottava Behave please.
Killiondude - it has been suggested that I become VP of the DC Chapter :)
Just for the record, while we're using the term Global South: The Global South includes Asia (with the exception of Japan, Hong Kong, Macau, Singapore, and South Korea), Central America, South America, Mexico, Africa, and the Middle East.
by monday by the way, the French chapter will have an very very cool announcement killiondude :)
GerardM-: What did that do? I've asked a few times what metrics people have used to say that chapters do things. :-)
Okay, we should probably answer Chzz's question a little more directly with distractions.
sgardner - I hope you realize that a large portion of Asia isn't in the south :)
with distractions, steven? :-P
more than what you listed :)
[2:41pm] • Chzz
suggests channel moderation, to let StevenW answer; looks to peter
Yep, I'm aware. This is the working definition we've been using. While we're using the term, this is what we mean by it :-)
Do you want to describe the "India dashboard" Barry, which is one of the ways we're putting stats to the question of what global development does?
chzz: I was referring to the Global South term. My job will include fostering growth around the world, with a specific focus on the developing world and on nascent groups of Wikimedians.
I think we need to moderate the channel.
[2:41pm] • Chzz
sgardner, are you aware that depending on the countries, the world does not have the same number of continents ?
Please everyone, let's not throw in too much side conversation or comments
I was very surprised when I discovered that....
sgardner: Taiwan is omitted but PRC is included? just for confirmation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Asia-map.png fyi, Asia is above the equator for anyone wondering. :)
That's what I mean britty and Ottava
Asaf, can you elaborate on what are considered "developing world" and "nascent groups of Wikimedians" - and how we are looking to analyse the current status, so we can see improvement
[2:42pm] Pyb joined the chat room.
Part of that has to do with the strategic plan I think, but if you want to give answering that a shot, go for it Asaf
Anthere - which continents are you suggesting other nations merge or create?
nascent groups of Wikimedians means a group of people aligned with the Wikimedia mission,
often, but not always, coming from the editing projects,
StevenW: I don't think my question is off-topic: if PRC is a target of Global-South is crucial to clarify what it is
who are interesting in doing "chapter-like" work -- outreach and education, events, GLAM, editor recruitment, etc.
Ottava, I would not suggest anything :) it is nice to have different views of the world, no ? :)
[2:44pm] • Sven_Manguard
This is getting chaotic.
I leave the channel and come back to Ottava coming in to yet another channel and being a troll
barry, when would you be available for a fundraising office time ?
I don't know why we don't boot him from all wikipedia IRC channels permanently
Such groups are often unaware of the Foundation's policy to support (by funds, information, and permission to use the trademarks) such activities regardless of whether or not a chapter exists.
Anthee - I'm just confused. I assumed that everyone believed that NA, SA, Africa, Australia and Antartica were their own continents, and I haven't heard of anyone talking about "Eurasia" as one place in a long time.
IRC/#wiki?edia is utterly unmanaged; there is no control over it. That is quite a fundamental problem, and one I've battled to resolve for >2.5 years now
Anthere: Will need to get back to you on that as I'll need to move stuff around next week.
Are we more interested in discussing continents now?
pardon my French
this is a bit out of hand :)
Anthere: You can work on my question!
[14:36:08]<killiondude>I think I've asked before if there's any tangible results that chapters have helped the WMF's goal. (What metrics are used to see if they are helping, etc)
We need Peter to moderate this.
Without being vauge.
[2:47pm] • Chzz
passes cookies to killiondude and Ottava
Asaf, I'd just like to make it clear WMF global south includes China; if WMF has a plan to work on it is somehow related to us Wikimedians in Japan
Okay. Let's answer killiondude's question in some fashion.
killiondude: just one example. "Liberation of content" has come from chapters, not from the WMF.
killiondude, number of partnership with external organisations such as museums ?
Re "developing world", I don't have an incisive definition that can be used to include/exclude particular territories -- I guess we'll be taking common definitions (economics-based etc.) as a guideline, but I'd like to think we would feel free to help Wikimedians further the mission anywhere on the planet. It's just a question of priorities.
number of new images uploaded in commons thanks to chapters ?
But wikimeetups can (and have) done image upload party things.
With no chapter involvement.
number of people trained to edit wikipedia during events ?
Instead of "Global South," why don't you just say "savages"?
Or "poor people"?
You don' have to be condescending.
I'm genionely asking.
Shirley: not appropriate
Asaf: I think you're stuck with bad or worse for the semantic of your title. Just say "cool dude helping people where it's needed"
Shirley - <3
killiondude: the fact most things (and I've said this before) can be done without a chapter doesn't mean that those chapters that exist aren't doing those things...
- this is pointless, and chaotic. Without clear remit, discussion, answers - it's a waste of time. I'm gonna go edit something instead. I'm out ***
- this is pointless, and chaotic. Without clear remit, discussion, answers - it's a waste of time. I'm gonna go edit something instead. I'm out ***
[2:50pm] Chzz left the chat room.
shirley: because that's not what we mean.
There's great beauty in chaos. No idea what he's talking about.
Asaf: Well, you all don't seem to know what "south" means. So I'm not sure you all know what you mean either. :-)
Shirley - but how would we include China when they block us over excessive porn at Commons as they refuse to accept graphic pictures of cum shots as "educational"
Asaf: Pleasure to meet you.
- my first, and based on how utterly useless this is, last time attending the office meetings. If this is how Wikipedia runs itself, it's doomed to die out. ***
- my first, and based on how utterly useless this is, last time attending the office meetings. If this is how Wikipedia runs itself, it's doomed to die out. ***
Asaf: are you working on chapters only or including "relevant groups" like us at WiKansai?
That is a good question britty
let's answer that
britty: I'll actually mostly be dealing with non-chapters.
[2:51pm] Sven_Manguard left the chat room.
yes, cool :)
[2:52pm] aude left the chat room. (Quit: bye!)
[2:52pm] You were granted voice by ChanServ.
- three asterisks ***
- three asterisks ***
[2:52pm] FridaesDoom joined the chat room.
shirley: the "south" word in the title is bad, I've acknowledged that already. We are interested in helping Wikimedia grow in areas where it has not been growing rapidly in the past.
[2:52pm] You were promoted to operator by ChanServ.
StevenW: Be careful there.
[2:52pm] • Shirley
waves to sgardner.
Asaf: If it's bad, stop using it.
[2:53pm] FridaesDoom left the chat room.
Acknowleding something sucks doesn't really help much. Address the problem.
To build on Asaf's comment: We are interested in opening up our work to groups who are doing work that supports the movement's priorities...
That includes Africa?
shirley: are you demanding we come up with a better title right now? I have already said the title will change, and we will be discussing it in the coming weeks. It won't be settled now, but it _is_ being addressed.
shirley: yes, Africa is a priority.
Asaf: developing countries of course but not limited to, you mean?
"those less fortunate"
Shirley - Wikipedia is not a reliable source, therefore, the WMF cannot be expected to be trused in terms of naming.
Asaf: I'm not demanding anything. But I am suggesting that poor terms not be used. And I can't see how or why it'd take weeks of time to come up with something better.
[2:54pm] You kicked Ottava from the chat room. (Ottava)
[2:54pm] You left the chat by being disconnected from the server.
And it's completely unclear what value there is in that.
You too, Ottava.
bnewstead - if you want to expand globally, you have to prohibit content in Commons that is clearly not educational.
Otherwise, we are banned from reaching about 2.5 billion people
Hard to expand when we are blocked.
Ottava: I hear Brandon Harris (jorm) is working on controversial content filtering.
Also, WMF gave up on China.
Remember that we are very successful in Europe, North America, Japan; but we have barely scratched the surface elsewhere.
[2:56pm] You were promoted to operator by ChanServ.
So I'd be less concerend with their filtering technqiues.
StevenW, do you really think bullying makes you look good? Seriously, cut that out.
StevenW: Yes, please stop.
bnewstead: South America is good too
Or at least allow someone competent to be an op.
I think we're done.
No StevenW, you are done
We're not going to participate in a hostile conversation like this.
No one ever liked you and you embarass the WMF. The people who work the site, who add content, and the res, are ignored while those like you gain power and use it to harass others.
[2:57pm] You left the chat by being disconnected from the server.
I suppose getting better wireless connections in the office should be a priority, too.
Denial, anger, bargaining, ... acceptance?
3. Regional conferences/events have been proposed, alongside the global event in Berlin, to facilitate knowledge sharing.
I'm missing one.
killiondude - Shirley - you have to rage against the dying of the light
Asaf, britty, I think we'll come to it pretty quickly anyway, because the number of chapters grows
I propose we make ottava.wikimedia.org.
Ban Ottava from all other projects and allow only him at that wiki.
It'll be a fishbowl.
Shirley - I almost made an ottava.wikia
and for a "work meeting" the number of people will be too many
Asaf: 2. thx for letting us know. I hope they reach consensus whatsoever it will
4. personal invitations to interact and share are highly effective in our movement, I have found. Invite some chapter people to speak (via Skype etc.) to a WiKansai meetup! I guarantee a good conversation.
+1 on 4
Asaf - you say a movement, but a movement to do what?
StevenW died too?
Most Chapters, from what I can see, accomplish nothing but meeting together, having food, having drinks, and talking about Wiki stuff
Asaf, delphine: actually on April or March a WMPH guy will visit us
we're excited to have him
That is more of a club than a "movement", and it isn't like Chapters have authority or can pass any kind of declarations on how Wikis should work.
ottava: I beg to differ.
britty: I also think we might want to see what we could do that's more "real life groups" specific around Wikimania
[3:03pm] Bry joined the chat room.
ie. alongside the main conference (or rather, before or after)
ottava: I invite you to read some chapter reports and see all the great work being done.
Asaf - okay, show me an example of a policy a chapter passed on a Wiki
and allow for sharing of best practices
wireless in the office is flakey from time to time.
[3:03pm] jvandavier joined the chat room.
Asaf: however thx for 4 suggestion, it'll need some tricks, but nice try: I'll discuss what is possible with people interested in
ottava: chapters stay away from policy discussions on wikis -- that's always been the sole domain of the editing community itself.
I keep losing this channel in my list.
Perhaps I need to reposition it.
britty: I'd love to get to know you people at WiKansai. Invite me! :)
Asaf - so you admit that it is nothing more than a club. Thanks.
[3:05pm] mhernandez_ left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
So we've been at this for an hour now. Some good discussion, but sadly a lot of distractions. Let's wrap up in 5 minutes.
[3:05pm] jvandavier left the chat room.
ottava: I certainly do not. You proposed a very silly criterion. Wikimedia Israel, for instance, is getting a _law_ passed at the Israeli parliament that would make State-owned photographs re-usable under a free license.
So, Wiki Chapters are now lobbyist organizations?
Asaf: yes sure! Let me know your blackout time and gray later by mail
ottava: no, but they can do lobbying to further the mission.
Most non-profits can't take direct lobbying action.
we'll first need to find good hours for both
That depends on the local laws I guess
And I find it odd to have a group related to the WMF taking political action.
Ottava: are you just trolling here or what?
kaldari - you aren't concerned?
This is a serious ethical matter
kaldari: taking the words out of my mouth, since I have them on ignore, the conversation is actually manageable :)
Using the WMF to pass legislation is a serious problem
WMF != WM Israel
It is an encyclopedia, and not a way to reinforce your political viewpoint.
And political action to further free knowledge / free licenses sounds acceptable to me
[3:08pm] jvandavier joined the chat room.
ottava: WMIL did not use the WMF. Freeing photos for re-use is not "reinforcing your political viewpoint".
There are more Wikimedia projects that Wikipedia
Perhaps I should stop feeding the trol.
roan laat je niet opjennen
RoanKattouw - I provided hundreds of megs of content and I didn't do that to help further your political agenda.
And many others are the same
a Wikipedian I respect deeply once thought to found WMJP to give a comment on JP gov't law draft
Ottava: this is certainly not the forum for criticizing the free culture movement. Please be respectful of people trying to have real discussions here.
lobbying could be a decent action of any chapter i think
Asaf, I've never heard of you but most of the people here have heard of me and seen my work.
If Sue and Jimmy would lobby Congress for certain tax legislation, yes, that's bad :)
So watch who you call a troll.
So, I'm going to head out. Let me say once more that we are excited to have Asaf and Moushira joining the WMF team. Have a good weekend!
I hate to say it, but lol
bye bnewstead :)
+1 to bnewstead's comment