IRC office hours/Office hours 2011-03-18

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<poem style="font-family:monospace,Courier;background:#F2F2F2"> StevenW: Hey everyone who just joined. I figured we'd start in a few minutes, and since it's a little smaller group we can keep it pretty casual. [9:02pm] Eloquence joined the chat room. [9:02pm] jayvdb joined the chat room. [9:02pm] • Risker puts on the fuzzy slippers [9:02pm] sgardner: Hello :-) [9:02pm] jayvdb: hi Sue [9:02pm] sgardner: Hi John, how are you? [9:02pm] sgardner: Hi FT2, Risker :-) [9:02pm] • jayvdb likes office hours that are during ... office hours ;-) [9:03pm] jayvdb: my boss is less keen on it tho [9:03pm] • Risker waves, passes the tray of cookies [9:03pm] Brian_S: Hey sgardner. :) [9:03pm] sgardner: Hi Brian :-) [9:03pm] AlexZ_ joined the chat room. [9:03pm] Brian_S: And hello Risker and jayvdb. [9:03pm] Demiurge1000 joined the chat room. [9:03pm] jayvdb: gday Brian [9:03pm] sgardner: This is a small group of us; it'll be cozy :-) [9:04pm] sonia:

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[9:04pm] Hydriz: lol [9:04pm] Herodotus: They scheduled it past the children's bed time in lieu of +m. [9:04pm] sgardner: Why don't I cozily, lazily, lay out some stuff I was thinking we might talk about? We don't need to be restricted by it, but maybe it'll get us started.. [9:04pm] kibble joined the chat room. [9:05pm] StevenW: hey kibble [9:05pm] Ktr101: Risker: are they thin mints? [9:05pm] Risker: Ktr101, there are peanut butter chocolate chip, thin mints, and custard cremes [9:05pm] Ktr101: ooh, MINE [9:05pm] Ktr101:

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[9:06pm] sgardner: We have thin mints here. From the Girl Guides :-) [9:06pm] StevenW: Girlscouts? [9:06pm] Ktr101: nice group name [9:06pm] Orderinchaos: LOL (and hi all :)) [9:06pm] Ktr101: kiwi people don't enjoy the amazingness of thin mints [9:06pm] • sonia tosses Ktr101 a pint [9:06pm] Ktr101: woo! [9:06pm] LauraHale joined the chat room. [9:06pm] sonia: hey LauraHale :) [9:07pm] jayvdb: hi Sonia and LauraHale [9:07pm] • sonia waves at jayvdb. [9:08pm] Risker: so sgardner, what were you thinking about for this august occasion? [9:08pm] • StevenW listens to sgardner furiously typing her ideas for what we wanted to talk about [9:08pm] StevenW:

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[9:08pm] sgardner: So tonight's office hours (9PM in San Francisco) are an unusual time for us: we wanted to try this out to see if it enabled people from India and points further east to join us. But Steven tells me it's St Patrick's Day, which means we'll probably be joined by a bunch of intoxicated leprechauns from the east coast of the United States :-) [9:08pm] sgardner: So I was thinking... [9:09pm] yannf joined the chat room. [9:09pm] sgardner: We could talk about [9:09pm] sgardner: 1) Participation. I don't know who here read the March Update and the Editor Trends study, but I would be happy to talk about both of those, and their implications. I'd be particularly interested in hearing your reactions to the update, and your thoughts about editor retention. [9:09pm] sgardner: And also..... [9:09pm] StevenW: March Update : http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/March_2011_Update [9:09pm] StevenW: Editor Trends: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editor_Trends_Study [9:09pm] StevenW: For those who haven't seen them [9:10pm] sgardner: 2) I am interested lately in systemic bias. Basically: in the wake of the New York Times gender gap story, a lot of people commented/discussed online about how they left Wikipedia because they got tired of being reverted and deleted. And women particularly seemed to comment that they felt unfairly or unjustly reverted. As someone jokingly put it on the strategy wiki, “I haven't heard of it, so it's not notable.” So I am wondering to what incompatible encoding [9:10pm] sgardner: extent underrepresented groups on Wikipedia face, or feel they face, systemic bias, given than the gatekeepers of consensus are disproportionately male, young, and living in richer countries. (And underrepresented could, I think, mean a bunch of things: gender, geography, age, culture, etc.) [9:10pm] Ktr101: oh btw for those who have seen it, i updated the charts that were on the signpost recently [9:10pm] StevenW: thanks Ktr101 [9:10pm] sgardner: So that's some stuff we could use to kick us off :-) [9:11pm] Ktr101: StevenW and others, to find it, change .svg to .png [9:11pm] sonia:

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[9:11pm] aude: hi [9:11pm] sgardner: Aude :-) [9:11pm] Demiurge1000: Another thing to consider, I guess, is existing women editors who have said that they do not feel under-represented at all, and that it's patronising. [9:11pm] Ktr101: yeah, sonia's happy because she bugged me to change it [9:11pm] Hydriz: lol [9:12pm] sonia: I've been told I embody anti-systemic bias, which is interesting; I don't feel at all isolated or under-represented. [9:12pm] sgardner: Demiurge1000, yeah, I think it's totally reasonable for us to talk about experienced female editors' reactions to the discussions around underrepresentation. I know some people feel that way. [9:12pm] Ktr101: before april 1st, someone needs to put an article on women and wiki on a major news site so i can discuss with my womens studies class about this issue and get the college viewpoint [9:13pm] jayvdb: why april 1st ? [9:13pm] Demiurge1000: sgardner: Thanks... I was just raising it because they seem quite noisy in that opinion, and I wanted to be sure their opinion would at least be mentioned. [9:13pm] jayvdb: start of semester ? [9:13pm] StevenW: Ktr101: have you seen the New York Times story> [9:13pm] StevenW: ? [9:14pm] StevenW: That's what sort of kicked it all off... [9:14pm] sgardner: Why don't we talk about that for a minute then, first? Experienced female editors. [9:14pm] • aude thinks the issues of female participation is [9:14pm] sgardner: And if there are any here who want to self-identify: excellent :-) [9:14pm] aude: 1) bite the newbies culture, which turns off not just females but everyone [9:14pm] Herodotus: What does Shirley think? [9:14pm] Hydriz: Aren't females always busy? [9:15pm] aude: 2) general factors that are beyond wikimedia, like women would probably tend more to their children, not have lots of free time, maybe less techy (not sure) [9:15pm] sonia: Hydriz, I beg your pardon? [9:15pm] Demiurge1000: sgardner: Sorry, I'm identifying as male for now. [9:15pm] Hydriz: Well, most girls I ask are always busy with their own life [9:15pm] aude: and more for #2 that apply to participation in open source / tech projects [9:16pm] aude: generally [9:16pm] Demiurge1000: Wikipedia is not a tech project - or should not be. [9:16pm] Nihiltres joined the chat room. [9:16pm] sgardner: Demiurge1000: however you see fit :-) [9:16pm] Orderinchaos: I think most of the things intrinsic to Wiki which are alleged to be driving away specifically females are probably also driving away males in similar proportion. [9:16pm] StevenW: Hey Nihiltres [9:16pm] Hydriz: but the Wikisyntax makes it looks like a tech project [9:16pm] Nihiltres: . [9:16pm] • aude is more concerned with other forms of diversity, e.g. reaching out to minorities in our city [9:17pm] Nihiltres: hi :) [9:17pm] aude: our ethiopian community, for example [9:17pm] aude: african americans, also [9:17pm] Ktr101: StevenW: i have but i brought it up before and no one responde [9:17pm] Ktr101: d [9:17pm] StevenW: ah I see [9:17pm] Demiurge1000: sgardner: I was just relaying what they have said - they don't think considering "female editors" as a separate species is useful. But I'm not a female editor so I have no idea. [9:17pm] Ktr101: jayvdb: i do a presentation on an article related to women then [9:17pm] StevenW: there are more stories at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap Ktr101 [9:18pm] Orderinchaos: aude: same issue over here in Australia. there's a lot of migrant communities here who are not engaged - particularly from Sudan and east Africa. [9:18pm] aude: Demiurge1000: i think wikipedia is a bit technical, but also shares general characteristics of open source, volunteer type projects [9:18pm] Ktr101: oh [9:18pm] aude: requires lots of free time, inclination towards techie /computers [9:18pm] Demiurge1000: There was a recent discussion on Jimbo's talk page about how south Asian communities approach en.wiki in totally the wrong way [9:18pm] Risker: well, I'm a self-identified female editor, and I found it somewhat intimidating back when I started editing. I can pretty much guarantee that it would take a LOT more steel in my backbone to start today than it did 5 years ago [9:18pm] sgardner: Yeah, Demiurge1000, I am hearing the same thing too, from women editors who I really respect. They feel called out on account of their gender, and they didn't ask to be called out, so some are finding it annoying. [9:19pm] Risker: but I also believe that is true generally. [9:19pm] Demiurge1000: Risker: If it's got worse, then that is a problem [9:19pm] Eloquence: The overall reality is that our number of contributors is shrinking, quite significantly now in the English Wikipedia. Whatever we can do to increase diversity is not going to be enough if we don't also address the causes of that decline. [9:19pm] Orderinchaos: I know male editors who have left for the same reason - had something to contribute, it was basically rejected, or they found themselves mired in WP:POL acronyms and gave up [9:19pm] sgardner: Most/many of them have no interest in personally, themselves, working to increase the number of women editors on Wikipedia. Which is completely and utterly fine: why should they? If they didn't sign up to be gender warriors, then they shouldn't be gender warriors: I don't think they have any kind of moral obligation to do it. [9:19pm] • aude doesn't want any special treatment, as a female, and otherwise hasn't paid much attention to the gendergap discussions (way too many emails too) [9:20pm] StevenW: yeah it's active list :) [9:20pm] Ktr101: i think you might be also able to track the decline to the saturation effect [9:20pm] sgardner: I think what Risker says is true and important: it takes more grit and steel to start editing today, than it probably did five years ago. [9:20pm] Orderinchaos: (or just in edit wars with people we're not for whatever reason effectively able to deal with) [9:20pm] aude: problem where maybe there isn't a problem or the problem is more general newbie biting [9:20pm] sgardner: (For everyone. That is non-gendered.) [9:20pm] Ktr101: basically every possible person who might be interested came and has left after inputting what they knew and now we're just getting second-generation editors of sorts [9:20pm] aude: newbie biting is the biggest problem for everyone (females, males, old, young, minorities, etc.) [9:21pm] StevenW: Ktr101: we thought about the saturation effect at first too. But it turns out recruitment isn't as big a problem as retention [9:21pm] Ariconte joined the chat room. [9:21pm] Avic joined the chat room. [9:21pm] StevenW: there are still new people arriving, we're just rejecting them at a faster rate [9:21pm] sgardner: Basically, I think that practically all of the impediments are the same for men and women (there are very few that are actually gender-specific). Some of the factors may _affect_ women more than men, on the whole.... but the factors themselves are impeding . [9:21pm] Ktr101: true, but maybe these new ones aren't as ballsy as the original wikipedians [9:21pm] Eloquence: Ktr101, you didn't need to be as ballsy in 2005 as you need to be in 2011. [9:21pm] Nihiltres: From what I've been hearing in outside channels, the #1 problem is a bad first-edit experience… [9:21pm] Nihiltres: people get an early edit reverted and then think "why bother?" [9:22pm] sgardner: Eloquence: yes. [9:22pm] StevenW: probably not, which is another reason to be less WP:BITEY Ktr101 :) [9:22pm] Ktr101: true, but that doesn't mean that the more ballsy people came first and it just happens to be a coincidence [9:22pm] sgardner: Nihiltres: yes, that's consistent with what I hear too. Lots and lots of people complaining about being reverted / deleted, and giving up. [9:22pm] Ktr101: i always am welcoming, although i admit to have slipped up a few times and i feel bad for that [9:22pm] sgardner: Kul, in the office, was telling me just yesterday that he got deleted the other day. [9:23pm] sgardner: (Anecdote. Obviously.) [9:23pm] StevenW: I don't think anyone is saying you're the problem Ktr101 ;) [9:23pm] Ktr101: no, i know StevenW [9:23pm] aude: sgardner: that's why i think mentoring and ambassador type programs are important... someone to help advocate and help the newbie avoid pitfalls [9:23pm] sonia: I think a lot of the issue is that the help pages are impenetrable [9:23pm] aude: also, the article incubator and new article wizard ideas [9:23pm] Nihiltres: aude: +1 [9:23pm] Demiurge1000: sgardner: It's important to remember that it wasn't *him* that got deleted... just an article or a section. It's not a personal thing. [9:23pm] Orderinchaos: also people thinking "some random reverting me" == "Wikimedia editorially rejecting my contributions" [9:23pm] StevenW: yeah, absolutely aude [9:23pm] Ktr101: maybe we're just getting hardlined editors now and they're more suspicious to new editors [9:23pm] aude: and #wikipedia-en-help (via the web based chat) is super helpful, w/ awesome wikipedians there [9:23pm] sgardner: Aude: yes. Did you see the conversation on the ANI board about the school that was editing under a group account? [9:23pm] sonia: I tend to be of the kind who reads all the doco before I started, and that was exceptionally difficult to do w/ Wikipedia because it was all over the place [9:24pm] arjunaraoc joined the chat room. [9:24pm] StevenW: For those interested in mentoring-type stuff... [9:24pm] StevenW: Have you all seen the Wiki Guides project? [9:24pm] Eloquence: Ktr101, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Newbie_treatment_at_CSD is worth reading if you haven't already. [9:24pm] aude: sgardner: don't pay a lot of attention to ANI [9:24pm] Ktr101: sgardner: have you talked to sage ross on this issue? [9:24pm] Demiurge1000: aude: I would disagree, I think wikipedia-en-help gets flooded with newbies making ridiculous demands that can't be met, and we ignore half of them [9:24pm] sgardner: Demiurge1000: yes, but it's interesting: everybody _feels_ like it's personal. The first time I got reverted, I spent about two days feeling uneasy and irritated. [9:24pm] Nihiltres: StevenW: I think I might have seen it, but then got busy and lost the link [9:24pm] StevenW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiki_Guides [9:24pm] StevenW: ^ [9:24pm] Nihiltres: StevenW: thanks [9:24pm] sgardner: Ktr101: About what? (Sage) [9:25pm] aude: Demiurge1000: i see people being very helpful there too [9:25pm] Ktr101: just the whole ambassador thing [9:25pm] Demiurge1000: aude: OK but if 50% of people feel we are being very UNhelpful, are we doing a decent job? [9:25pm] sgardner: Oh yeah: I think the ambassador program is really good. I like campus associations too: I think they have lots of potential :-) [9:25pm] Nihiltres: One thing I think would really help would be being really upfront about our standards [9:26pm] Ktr101: the mentees are really interesting in that they have the drive but there are a lot of them that aren't as "yea wikipedia!" as we are...yet [9:26pm] sonia: the problem is that mentees are thriving, sure. [9:26pm] StevenW: yeah, it does take a little longer for people to get "hooked" Ktr101 [9:26pm] sonia: But they are here because they have an assignment to do [9:26pm] StevenW: it's not instant [9:26pm] Nihiltres: as in: push the standards out e.g. "If you don't add sources to this new article you're making, it'll get deleted!" [9:26pm] Eloquence: StevenW, it requires repeated viewing of your ignite talk at a minimum. [9:26pm] aude: Demiurge1000: there's certainly room for improvement with the help channel but think such a thing would be good (and still is helpful, as is if the newbie asks reasonable q's) [9:26pm] Ktr101: sonia: true, but maybe we should encourage people to have fun on the side [9:27pm] StevenW: haha Eloquence [9:27pm] sgardner: Ktr101: there will probably be a pretty low success. Because not everyone is really cut out to be a Wikipedian: it's a niche taste. But we just need a small proportion to join us :-) [9:27pm] Demiurge1000: aude: What about when they don't ask reasonable questions? Which is most of them? [9:27pm] sonia: and it would take hundreds of "ambassadors" -- who would have to be of a pretty high calibre-- to help newbs uniformly :p [9:27pm] StevenW: yes [9:27pm] Ktr101: true, then we send them t-shirts with the logo and "One of us!" printed on the back [9:27pm] StevenW: Sue calls that "affiliative swag" Ktr101 [9:27pm] StevenW:

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[9:28pm] • Risker wants a Tshirt... [9:28pm] Ktr101: lol [9:28pm] arjunaraoc: It is not just newbies, even experienced wikipedians entries are reverted on a key topic, if the new page has few bullets which are similar to a web page of foss site. [9:28pm] aude: sgardner: so, what's happening with the PPI program when it ends? will WMF support a next phase or continuation of some form (e.g. keep some staff)? [9:28pm] Ktr101: arjunaraoc: foss site? [9:28pm] sonia: StevenW: is it possible that that "email me when my talk page is changed" option which is enabled by default on most other projects is set up for enwiki? [9:28pm] aude: when the grant ends... [9:28pm] Demiurge1000: Many of the most positive people are kids, who in many cases are only really interested in making userboxes and doing anti-vandalism patrol. Nothing wrong with that, and they might be our future contributors. But it's worth not scaring them away either. [9:28pm] sonia: it would certainly help the new people who don't check in every day, which I imagine is all of them. [9:28pm] Risker: sonia....it would probably kill the servers [9:28pm] StevenW: sonia: I wish! [9:29pm] sonia: ah :/ [9:29pm] sonia: never mind that, then :P [9:29pm] Ktr101: sonia: imagine the uproar it would bring [9:29pm] Demiurge1000: Risker: The servers will do fine. Unless a tech person says otherwise. [9:29pm] Eloquence: StevenW, we should have a tracking bug for that - do we ? [9:29pm] Ktr101: every proposal is a potential bomb [9:29pm] Nihiltres: sonia: I think there are external sites which do it for enwiki [9:29pm] StevenW: but yeah, Risker is right. Server overload was the problem... and even if we could do it, it would take a lot of work to make sure we wouldn't get flagged as spam. [9:29pm] arjunaraoc: ktr101 I created a new page on an important topic with few inputs from http://padma.mozdev.org/ and it was reverted in a short time, without even allowing for explanation. [9:29pm] pradx joined the chat room. [9:29pm] Nihiltres: I recall asking an external site that did that to add a link to WP:COI [9:29pm] Nihiltres: They did :) [9:29pm] pradx: identify pradx gandalf [9:29pm] Ktr101: ah, thanks arjunaraoc [9:30pm] WittyLama joined the chat room. [9:30pm] Nihiltres: pradx: :P [9:30pm] WittyLama: ce [9:30pm] Herodotus: Along the lines of what sonia said though, the "Do I reply on my talk page or yours?" problem is something even experienced editors deal with, though not one that has an easy solution. [9:30pm] Nihiltres: hi WittyLama! [9:30pm] Demiurge1000: StevenW: Seriously, a top ten website should be able to work out how not to get flagged as spam. The others do. [9:30pm] aude: hi WittyLama ! [9:30pm] WittyLama: heya [9:30pm] StevenW: Demiurge1000: I agree. [9:30pm] sonia: but LQT, at the moment, is not really a suitable solution [9:30pm] Orderinchaos: i've been around 5 years this month and an admin for 4 of them and even I don't go near certain topics - not because I can't intelligently contribute to them (with loads of good quality sources) but I can't be bothered fighting the territorial guard and don't have the time to do so. [9:30pm] Risker: I agree that I have seen excellent, longterm editors being reverted, even warned about vandalism or other editing faults [9:31pm] sonia: I've seen an editor get reverted for using "whilst" instead of "while" [9:31pm] Demiurge1000: Risker: Then they should not make editing faults so often! [9:31pm] sgardner: Aude: I'm not sure. Our hope is that the PPI initiative will do a lot of experimentation, and then that whatever works will get picked up by others going forward. By chapters, student associations, interested professors, and so forth. [9:31pm] StevenW: So when I read the March Update for the first time, it made me try to think about whether it feels harder to edit now than before. Like if I was a newbie. What do you people think about that? [9:31pm] Demiurge1000: Risker: Being around a long time does not give someone some right to not be criticised. [9:31pm] sgardner: I am not sure to what extent it'll be institutionalized within the organization. [9:31pm] sgardner: Liam :-) [9:31pm] Orderinchaos: hey Liam :) [9:31pm] Risker: Demiurge1000, they were getting warnings for legitimate, even accurate and beneficial edits [9:32pm] aude: sgardner: i think it will take addition time to work to make things transition to the chapters or something sustainable [9:32pm] Eloquence: Frank is working on an extensive proposal for a global university program modeled after PPI [9:32pm] sgardner: Aude: yeah, I agree. [9:32pm] Eloquence: you can see it here: http://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_University_Program [9:32pm] Demiurge1000: Risker: Well, so do a lot of new or unregistered editors. There's the problem (sorry if I missed what you were saying) [9:32pm] aude: Eloquence: thanks [9:32pm] sonia: Eloquence: I'd love to be part of that [9:32pm] Ktr101: Risker: maybe we should have a counter-warning system for things like that [9:32pm] Eloquence: be bold :-) outreachwiki needs you. [9:33pm] sgardner: So what did you think, about the information in the Update? The difficulties we're having retaining new editors? [9:33pm] • aude would love to see something continue at georgetown but think we need a coordinator staff person to help manage [9:33pm] sonia: there are large holes in the coverage of NZ that undergrads would feel empowered if they were encouraged to fix [9:33pm] Demiurge1000: From having mentored people on anti-vandalism patrol, yes the people doing the patrol can be *way* too eager, and that is bad. [9:33pm] aude: and perhaps an art history or GLAM-related courses at local universities [9:33pm] Nihiltres: StevenW: I see a lot of people expecting that Wikipedia is freewheeling "write whatever you want" and then people get slapped repeatedly with the trout rulebook [9:33pm] jayvdb: thx Eloquence; that will be helpful. [9:33pm] Eloquence: aude, at the same time we need to find ways to bring the cost-per-student down for it to be scalable ... [9:33pm] aude: Eloquence: agree [9:34pm] aude: but just dropping it for next year without a way to transition or make it sustainable is not good [9:34pm] Demiurge1000: User_talk:RHaworth is a good place to look at the response most of the newcomers to En-Wiki get when they create their first article. [9:34pm] StevenW: Totally Nihiltres. The set up and then throwing rules at people unexpectedly. [9:34pm] sgardner: (going to that page) [9:34pm] StevenW: Thanks for the example Demiurge1000 [9:35pm] Demiurge1000: ... which is totally because most of the newcomers to En-Wiki want to create a page about their band or company or charity or....... [9:35pm] Eloquence: aude, I personally think it needs to be part of our continuing strategy, but we're talking about it. obviously the main discussions about all these programs we're having is whether they're a good use of donor funds for us & effective at reversing decline. I think they can be, and PPI has done lots of pioneering work that indicates that this is true. [9:35pm] Herodotus: Nihiltres: And specifically with templates from Twinkle and the like. I personally think that's one of the things that turns people off, to return to sgardner's original question. [9:36pm] aude: Eloquence: i look forward to hearing more and seeing where the discussions go [9:36pm] Nihiltres: Herodotus: yeah… [9:36pm] Nihiltres: mixed feelings on Twinkle. [9:36pm] Demiurge1000: Twinkle is not bad [9:36pm] Nihiltres: but it isn't friendly enough [9:36pm] • aude would like our chapter-to-be to take it on and make it primarily volunteer-driven but we're not quite ready [9:36pm] Demiurge1000: Wrong use of twinkle is bad [9:37pm] Demiurge1000: the twinkle messages are actually really well written [9:37pm] sgardner: Didn't Kaldari try to introduce some warmth options to Twinkle? [9:37pm] Eloquence: I would love for chapters to hire Wikimedia fellows who drive university programs, GLAM activities, etc. [9:37pm] aude: Eloquence: +1 [9:37pm] sgardner: (Like, some praising options, I mean.) [9:37pm] Nihiltres: sgardner: there's an open thread on adding a WikiLove gadget [9:37pm] Demiurge1000: sgardner: If that could be added in the top-level twinkle options, I would be fine with that [9:37pm] WittyLama: I'm specifically pushing for Chapters that have been active in a) fundraising and b) GLAM projects to look at hiring an "outreach coordinator" [9:37pm] Herodotus: Demiurge1000: My point was not on the messages themselves but rather the notion that, as a new user, a personal message might be more inviting in non-vandalism situations. [9:37pm] aude: more wikilove! ;) [9:37pm] sonia: for the record, http://enwp.org/template:W-FAQ is one of our best welcome templates [9:38pm] StevenW: I think technology is neutral by default, and yeah, it is bad use of tools. But the issue is perhaps that Twinkle, by virtue of the fact that it makes it very easy to hit people with warnings etc. but not very easy to be nice and rewarding, leans towards negative interactions. [9:38pm] Eloquence: Nihiltres, at least it has WP:FRIENDLY now ;-) [9:38pm] Nihiltres: some opposition on grounds of abuse, but it looks like it'll end up getting merged into Twinkle [9:38pm] kyle66 joined the chat room. [9:38pm] StevenW: with newbies I mean [9:38pm] Demiurge1000: Herodotus: I would like Twinkle to have a "welcome" message as one of the default easily available options, too [9:38pm] WittyLama: yes - not just warning options, but praise options just as easily available. [9:38pm] sgardner: Sometimes I wonder if the core of the problem is simply new people getting reverted and deleted unfairly, too often. Zack Exley's notion that RC patrol is a FPS, and every day nuns and tourists are being massacred. [9:39pm] Ktr101: StevenW: is there any way we can make the templates nicer that we use on twinkle? [9:39pm] Eloquence: maybe it should also not have a smirking police officer as its icon ;-) [9:39pm] Risker: Demiurge, I think it does....sort of in line with "Welcome, thanks for coming, don't do that anymore" [9:39pm] Ktr101: i've made some of the afc templates a lot more welcoming a few months back [9:39pm] grb joined the chat room. [9:39pm] Demiurge1000: sgardner: Sometimes the patrollers do make those mistakes, but they are so over-worked that they don't get the training to tell them that they did so [9:40pm] jayvdb: sgardner, that is how I see it too. the RC is the cause of a large part of our culture. [9:40pm] StevenW: I don't think it's that the existing templates need to be nicer Ktr101, it's that we should be enabling encouraging actions and comments, not just nice warnings. Know what I mean? Positive affirmation, not just gentle reminders about what people are doing wrong [9:40pm] StevenW: I think our template warnings tend to be pretty nice considering the rest of the Internet, IMO. [9:40pm] Ktr101: i wonder if we can code the templates to have that option added at the end [9:40pm] aude: i know the incubator idea has been mentioned, but also what about the drafts extension? [9:40pm] arjunaraoc: demiurge1000: yes, they should check the track record of registered editors before taking action to revert [9:40pm] jayvdb: slowing down the RC firehose would be lovely. pulling newpages out of Google will help, as it reduces the urgency. [9:40pm] sgardner: Demiurge1000: yes, I find that completely credible. I don't think the patrollers have the time or the inclination to be gentle with new people. It's just not that kind of work. But it makes me wonder how then to mitigate the negative effects they're having on new editors. [9:40pm] aude: what's the status of the drafts extension? would it be helpful in some form? [9:40pm] Demiurge1000: StevenW: You are exactly right. Every patroller needs a mentor... we should not just be saying "go out there and patrol! we will know if you screw up because we will get valid complaints!" [9:41pm] jayvdb: the simplest way to slow down the RC feed is to require all new pages have been a redlink for x days prior to creation [9:41pm] Ktr101: how has the thing been doing as a track record? [9:41pm] Ktr101: i mean, how has his been [9:41pm] Eloquence: my pet idea of the moment: give newbies a floating "I am having a problem: " toolbar/inputbox that feeds into a gigantic open database that we can mine to better understand newbie experiences (and create positive feedback loops in the community) [9:41pm] Ktr101: i think he would be a good mentor if he is a competent patroller [9:41pm] Demiurge1000: arjunaraoc: I struggle to type your name, also there is only so much patrollers can do [9:41pm] sonia: Demiurge1000: I would physically resist having a mentor [9:42pm] sgardner: Eloquence: yeah, I like that :-) [9:42pm] WittyLama: is there a quick/easy way to add a little icon in Recent Changes next to edits that have been made by new-editors? That way RCpatrolers can be forewarned that it's a newbie and to be especially nicer? [9:42pm] Nihiltres: Eloquence: that's a really cool idea :D [9:42pm] sgardner: sonia: LOL [9:42pm] Ktr101: sonia: we could overwhelm you :P [9:42pm] jayvdb: WittyLama, nice idea [9:42pm] Demiurge1000: sonia: I meant for new patrollers... I get the idea you've been around longer than I have :) [9:42pm] Risker: I think the best way to help slow down newbie-biting on new articles would be to have a 5-minute delay before an article is added to the list, or alternately to default to the oldest articles on the list instead of the newest ones [9:42pm] StevenW: Not to canvass, but if people are interested in encouraging tech to aid nice messaging of newbies, there's a proposal up now to add Kaldari's WikiLove script at a gadget. [9:42pm] Demiurge1000: A 5 minute delay would be a great idea [9:42pm] sonia: I'm using the WikiLove script; it's really nice :) [9:42pm] Ktr101: Risker: maybe even ten minutes is better because it would allow for them to take their time [9:43pm] sgardner: WittyLama: don't you think patrollers are less likely to be kind to new people? The assumption I tend to hear is that new people are likely to be vandals, spammers.... [9:43pm] Ktr101: most noobs are quite slow i think [9:43pm] arjunaraoc: Demiurge1000: Use the short cut tab in future for name completion, if you are on appropriate client. some guidelines can help. [9:43pm] jayvdb: I also like the five minute delay, but only on the default display, and only if the newpages arnt being added to Google instantaneously [9:43pm] Demiurge1000: arjunaroac: I'll give that a try. Thanks. [9:43pm] Nihiltres: WittyLama: It's technically possible, but it would be impractical to implement in JavaScript [9:43pm] kyle66 left the chat room. [9:43pm] Demiurge1000: (sensible names are also great, but hey) [9:43pm] sgardner: I think what would help, is a mechanism that helps patrollers distinguish between good faith new editors, and spammers, vandals, pranksters. [9:43pm] Demiurge1000: yeah Google is a danger [9:44pm] sonia: Demiurge1000: what might be gibberish to you is not necessarily gibberish to me [9:44pm] jayvdb: Nihiltres, it could be done in the NPP clients [9:44pm] Ktr101: sgardner: mind-reading software, eh? [9:44pm] Demiurge1000: Sonia: No worries there. Your name looks fine. [9:44pm] sonia: sgardner: a lot of the time it's just "this person has a redlinked talk page, let's go tag the article with the nearest possible CSD tag" [9:44pm] Pathoschild left the chat room. (Quit: *poof*) [9:44pm] Eloquence: WittyLama, you've seen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/newbies ? [9:45pm] sgardner: Ktr101: I did RC patrol the other weekend, and I found myself looking up new article writers' userpages to see if they'd written anything there that would mark them as sincere / good faith. [9:45pm] sgardner: Which was very time-consuming. [9:45pm] sonia: it is. [9:45pm] jayvdb: Eloquence, the 'newbie' status needs to be added to the RC feed [9:45pm] Demiurge1000: RC patrol is really a lot harder than people think. [9:45pm] Ktr101: heh, that might be a good idea though if we could speed it up to a practical time [9:45pm] sonia: it is hard enough to keep up with, let alone look up each editor's stats and attempt to improve the article and leave them a personal note. [9:45pm] sgardner: I found it emotionally very difficult. Seriously! -- I felt very uncomfortable reverting/deleting people; I would prefer to help them :-) [9:46pm] Orderinchaos: the problem is there's no scientific way at the start to separate newbies from lulzsters from opinion-pushers - and the former can sometimes look like the latter in particular [9:46pm] Demiurge1000: Everyone takes the view "well surely you could just check it and then add a reference if one was available??" when in fact it's never really clear if one is available, until you basically re-write the entire article yourself. [9:46pm] sgardner: sonia: yes. When I did it (just very briefly) I felt overwhelmed. [9:46pm] StevenW: yeah, jumping off sgardner's comment, the partially unacknowledged truth is that part of the reason there's more newbie biting is that all the patrollers are totally overworked. [9:46pm] Ktr101: i think a lot of patrollers have a "i'll know it when i see it" attitude to patrolling, but they shouldn't because then people get wrong tags [9:46pm] pradx: I think a note to tell people where they can get help in editing Wikipedia along with a delete note might be a good start. [9:46pm] sgardner: Someone said the other day "If I've never heard of it, it's not notable." LOL. [9:46pm] sonia: what happens is after you see too many pages of the same kind you're simply too overwhelmed to do any more than let twinkle welcome and add the warning for you. [9:46pm] StevenW: exactly [9:46pm] Wizardman left the chat room. (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024726]) [9:46pm] dcoetzee joined the chat room. [9:47pm] Ktr101: pradx: i hear that a lot about us [9:47pm] Demiurge1000: Recent change patrol is fairly easy to do... new page patrol is not. Most people don't accept that, but that's why there are so few new page patrollers. [9:47pm] dcoetzee is now known as Dcoetzee. [9:47pm] Dcoetzee left the chat room. (Changing host) [9:47pm] Dcoetzee joined the chat room. [9:47pm] sgardner: (I was doing new page patrol.) [9:47pm] sgardner: Hey Dcoetzee :-) [9:47pm] Nihiltres: I've never used Twinkle… and these days RC patrol is hard to do without tools [9:47pm] Dcoetzee: Hi Sue :-) [9:47pm] sgardner:

-)

[9:47pm] Orderinchaos: so you push the newbie, the newbie complains. you get a BLP opinion pusher pretending to be a newbie and leave him alone, you get an OTRS complaint from the subject. so we can't afford to be too hands-off either. [9:47pm] Dcoetzee: I might disappear shortly, at the laundromat and short on power, but I'll be back. [9:47pm] Eloquence: interesting relevant Wikimania submission: http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Newbies_Incubator [9:48pm] Ktr101: never use automated tools, but i feel as though it makes me a nicer patroller because of it [9:48pm] Ktr101: i never, excuse that error [9:48pm] Nihiltres: Ktr101: same here. [9:48pm] Demiurge1000: Dcoetzee dropped in to say hi to Sue and to tell us about his laundry. [9:48pm] WittyLama: is that incubator the system in Russian WP where new articles aren't deleted, they're put in a different namespace to be worked on? [9:48pm] Ktr101: partly because i always have to look up the templates, so it helps the temper [9:48pm] Dcoetzee:

-P

[9:48pm] sgardner: WittyLama, yes. [9:48pm] WittyLama: (since "deleted articles" aren't really deleted anyway) [9:48pm] Dcoetzee: I think it's possible to use semi automatic tools without being impersonal. [9:49pm] arjunaraoc: WittyLama: like that [9:49pm] sgardner: We are all very interested in laundry. [9:49pm] Ktr101: WittyLama: we get more though than the russian one does so it might be harder to do [9:49pm] Ariconte left the chat room. [9:49pm] sonia: just not airing the dirty laundry :) [9:49pm] Dcoetzee: sonia: :-P [9:49pm] Demiurge1000: Don't we do that later? [9:49pm] Nihiltres: Dcoetzee: yes, but it's far easier to be impersonal when you're using semi-automatic weapons anti-vandalism tools [9:49pm] StevenW: I think the different namespace part is one more important element of the success of the Russian Incubator. English has one but no namespace, and it's hardly ever used. [9:49pm] Dcoetzee: The tool can actually encourage being more personal if it involves the user in writing talk page notes, etc. [9:50pm] sonia: What about raising the profile of AFC, then making it only possible for autoconfirmed and up to create in mainspace? [9:50pm] Demiurge1000: Are you telling me that Russian wikipedia is more polite to noob editors than English? [9:50pm] Dcoetzee: Speaking of AFC, I think TV Tropes has an interesting model for article creation. [9:50pm] WittyLama: Ktr101: but en.wp has more people too... the blatant spam is deleted in russian WP like on en.wp but everything else is moved sideways rather than hidden. [9:50pm] sonia: if we had a few more reviewers I think AfC is a much less bitey way for newcomers to learn the ropes [9:50pm] sgardner: What does TV Tropes do? [9:50pm] StevenW: Not more polite, but easier perhaps when it comes to letting them slowly work on articles Demiurge1000 [9:50pm] Dcoetzee: All their proposed tropes go through a forum (YKTTW) and have to meet minimum requirements and consensus before they're launched. [9:51pm] Dcoetzee: It's rather similar to AFC in some ways. [9:51pm] Nihiltres: Dcoetzee: interesting… [9:51pm] WittyLama: talk about bitey at AfC - the director of Web from the British Museum wrote an article "List of films shot at the British Museum" and it was rejected :-P [9:51pm] Ktr101: sonia: agreed, but it also has periods where we just purge and decline some good articles [9:51pm] WittyLama: (rejected on AfC that is) [9:51pm] Demiurge1000: WittyLama: Was it any good? [9:51pm] sonia: Ktr101: ..."we"? [9:51pm] Ktr101: not me, others [9:51pm] Eloquence: I find AFC is starting to resemble the commons upload process in complexity. that doesn't mean it's not a good option to have, but having a place where it's OK to deposit something imperfect and collaboratively improve it might be nice. that place used to be called wikipedia ;-) [9:51pm] Ktr101: WittyLama: where's the link for that? [9:51pm] Nihiltres: Dcoetzee: I think the "minimum requirements" part might actually help make things friendly [9:51pm] sonia: the purges are only necessary because AfC is low-profile :P [9:52pm] Nihiltres: better to tell people the rules up front than surprise them later [9:52pm] Nihiltres: principle of least astonishment [9:52pm] Ktr101: sonia: but when people clear the backlog, they become robots sometimes and just want to get the numbers lower [9:52pm] Ktr101: Nihiltres: so we bite first, send a cake later? :P [9:53pm] sonia: I generate more content through #wikipedia-en-help and AFC than I could ever write :) [9:53pm] StevenW: You had an interesting comment a second ago Dcoetzee about encouraging personal messages on talk pages... I think sgardner has a question for everyone about that sort of thing. [9:53pm] sgardner: Hey I have a question. Some of the comments I've seen external people make about Wikipedia suggest that they feel like it's a lonely, isolated place where people don't hang out socially. But you guys actually do hang out socially. (You are right now.) [9:53pm] sgardner: So I wonder [9:53pm] WittyLama: Krt101 I should have checked first! It was rejected at the time, but is a live article now  :-P poor example from me! [9:53pm] • sonia hands WittyLama a trout. [9:53pm] sgardner: How did you meet each other? Was it hard to start talking to other people in the beginning? Did people leave messages on your talk page, and did you respond? [9:53pm] Nihiltres: Ktr101: more like saying "our jaws are here, stay out of them and we will give you cake" :P [9:53pm] Ktr101: if hanging out means on skype, yes [9:54pm] Ktr101: lol [9:54pm] sonia: sgardner: I got a few kicks up the behind for myspacing at first :P [9:54pm] Demiurge1000: There is no easy way round it; there are thousands of new editors coming in wanting to create articles that mostly are not suitable for Wikipedia, and the only good way of dealing with that in most cases is to have a sentient editor talk to them politely. [9:54pm] sgardner: sonia: That is funny :-) [9:54pm] matthewrbowker: sgardner: I just started hanging out in the -help channel for en.wp. That's how I met everyone. [9:54pm] Ktr101: sgardner: i think a lot of us gravitate to those who have similar interests as us [9:54pm] Ktr101: i know i met sonia that way [9:54pm] Orderinchaos: sgardner: that was my own impression until I ended up in a minor skirmish with someone in my own state and one of his mates stepped in to mediate, then introduced me to the rest of the crew. since then we've been having meetups and the original guy forgave me long ago for my misunderstanding :P [9:54pm] Nihiltres: Although I've historically frowned on "myspacing", I think we could do with a bit more of it [9:54pm] Orderinchaos: (that was in late 2006) [9:54pm] WittyLama: there really is no easy-to-access meeting place (especially for newbies). There's talkpages and then there's off-wik things like this but you have to "be in the know" to find this. [9:54pm] sonia: it was through IRC (and more recently being an ambassador) that I met nearly everyone [9:55pm] Demiurge1000: Nihiltres: You will be hung drawn and quartered by the end of the month, talking like that.... [9:55pm] Dcoetzee left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) [9:55pm] Orderinchaos: areas with more of a sense of unity of purpose tend to be like that - like a state which feels cut off, or a minority group or whatever [9:55pm] Nihiltres: sonia: yeah, IRC is definitely a nice space for that [9:55pm] Ktr101: sonia: so you had no friends before, i see :D [9:55pm] sonia: but IRC ain't exactly friendly to those who are not tech-savvy, or who are in the minority we're seeking to attract [9:55pm] StevenW: right [9:55pm] Demiurge1000: People write essays as if "myspacing" is a bannable offence in itself [9:55pm] Nihiltres: Demiurge1000: it's not that I think it's inherently a good thing—it can be annoying—but its second-order effects are beneficial [9:55pm] WittyLama: I'd love to see Wikimedia.org become a kind of all-wikimedia-community hub with a forum (built on LiquidThreads, replacing the mailinglists to a large degree?) [9:55pm] Orderinchaos: a lot of people don't know how to use IRC. I get that a lot when talking even to uni students who you'd expect to be more tech-savvy. [9:55pm] Ktr101: IRC also doesn't work when new users pop in at 2 am on the east coast and wonder where we are [9:56pm] sonia: Ktr101: usually I'm the only one there. [9:56pm] Ktr101: sonia: at 2 am i'm up always [9:56pm] sonia: and usually, that's Indian people trying to get paid for editing, or to chat me up :P [9:56pm] Ktr101: heck, i get all the acc creations then [9:56pm] Eloquence: perhaps the myspacing accusation will level off now that the universe has generally acknowledged that myspace was one of the great internet accidents of the 21st century. [9:56pm] sgardner: Steven Walling is daring me to ask this question: [9:56pm] StevenW: ruh roh [9:56pm] Ktr101: Eloquence: so now it's facebooking? [9:56pm] Demiurge1000: Let's face it, most of Wikipedia's future users are current High School students... but if they dare to do something that looks like "myspacing", then some people will try and get them banned [9:56pm] Ktr101: or twittering on wiki? [9:57pm] Nihiltres: face-spacing :P [9:57pm] Ktr101: hehehe [9:57pm] Eloquence: facebooking can't be all bad. after all it can be used to topple repressive governments, apparently. [9:57pm] sgardner: We were talking earlier today about how sometimes we wish there were a "like" button on Wikipedia. Where you could just vote up people's posts, or like their articles, or whatever. Do we long for this, or do we hate it? [9:57pm] Demiurge1000: Despite the fact that MySpace stopped being popular about five years ago [9:57pm] sgardner: LOL [9:57pm] sonia: facepalming will do fine [9:57pm] Ktr101: sgardner: YES [9:57pm] sgardner: Both? [9:57pm] sgardner:

-)

[9:57pm] Demiurge1000: sgardner: I have no problem with that, I am sort of vaguely positive about it [9:57pm] Ktr101: facebook has pages that we like that are all taken from wiki [9:57pm] Risker: ironically, I don't think I had much interaction with anyone until I wrote an outside view at a user RFC [9:58pm] Ktr101: if we could figure out a way to show those numbers on wikipedia, it would work out fine [9:58pm] WittyLama: sgardner: are you talking about "liking" an edit, an article, or a talkpage message? [9:58pm] Ktr101: the thing is though, we need to stop having the ability to like redirects [9:58pm] StevenW: yeah lol [9:58pm] sonia: it is very difficult to find the community as a new user [9:58pm] WittyLama: sonia - preciely. [9:59pm] Nihiltres: sgardner: as long as it was our own thing and not "external" liking, it might be neat to try [9:59pm] Orderinchaos: sonia: ironically I've encountered that on foreign language wikis while trying to find their equivalent of AN/I or VP, and it's not infrequent one finds such a place and the post never gets any replies. [9:59pm] sgardner: WittyLama, I dunno. All sorts of things! I was just thinking: I made a kind of friendly comment on someone's talk page, and I found myself wishing there was some kind of small, light way to be friendly, without committing to a lot of on-wiki back-and-forth. Really I just wanted to say hi. So "liking" users, edits, articles, threads, anything :-) [9:59pm] sgardner: I just think people might be casually loosely friendly and kind, if we supported easy ways to do it. [9:59pm] pradx: sonia - it takes time to be in any community. but yes, in wikimedia it also takes time to find the community. [10:00pm] sonia: part of it is the mindset that needs changing :p [10:00pm] Ktr101: sgardner: i think a lot of us find it hard to be "nice" and informal on-wiki because people judge on the darndest of things [10:00pm] aude: sgardner: are you familiar with wikicup? [10:00pm] Eloquence: Putting my product hat on again, with systems like the new ArticleFeedback tool ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_centimeters ) we can potentially build an interest graph for readers/new users which we can use to point them to things like WikiProjects and relevant community activities. [10:00pm] Nihiltres: sgardner: so, kind of like Facebook's "poke", ish? [10:00pm] sgardner: Aude: no, I don't think I am. [10:00pm] • aude is indifferent about wikicup -- good and bad aspects [10:00pm] WittyLama: Sgardner - one of the suggestions along those lines from a while ago was a "web of trust" kind of thing where people list the other users that they like/trust. the downside is that it very quickly would become a popularity contest and more about your 'friends' than your content. [10:00pm] • sonia pokes Nihiltres [10:00pm] Ktr101: "you have been poked by The_Thing...poke back?" that will scare people :D [10:00pm] Nihiltres: sonia: ow. [10:01pm] sgardner: I think among the millennials, poke is ... suggestive. Or so they tell me :-) [10:01pm] sgardner: LOL [10:01pm] aude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiCup [10:01pm] Ktr101: WittyLama: that sounds like a good idea, as long as we remain meture about it [10:01pm] sonia: hmm [10:01pm] Nihiltres: sgardner: well, different wording, then :P [10:01pm] sonia: no, I don't think that'd work [10:01pm] Eloquence: I think we should copy Quora more than we should copy Facebook. Wikipedia is about topics first and foremost, and then arranging people around them. [10:01pm] Ktr101: sgardner: if you keep your mind out of the gutter, then it sould work [10:01pm] sonia: Ktr101: but that's the thing [10:01pm] aude: the downsides are quantitative focus, on counts like # of DYKs and less about quality, perhaps [10:01pm] sonia: with our current demographic [10:01pm] aude: but still encourages people to work on content, which is good [10:01pm] sgardner: StevenW told me not to say that. But I couldn't help myself, LOL. Let's move on :-) [10:01pm] • Ktr101 scrubs sonia's mind with bleach and water [10:01pm] sonia: "keeping your mind out of the gutter" or "remaining mature" about things is a bit of a problem. [10:02pm] sonia: the kidlings here are the future :) [10:02pm] Ktr101: sonia: it's all your fault! [10:02pm] pradx: i think most of the fun about wikipedia is editing it. if people wanted to poke/like etc. they'd know where they need to go [10:02pm] Ktr101: you're the kiddling :P [10:02pm] • sonia defenestrates Ktr101 [10:02pm] WittyLama: as long as we're talking about enabling people to express more of a personality in their intereactions... can I ask about whether global-userpages/global-watchlists is on the agenda? [10:02pm] StevenW: So, to conclude the idea, seems like people feel like it could be easier to find and participate in the community part of editing [10:02pm] StevenW: ? [10:02pm] Orderinchaos: don't remind me... i earn my income tutoring said kidlings :P [10:02pm] Nihiltres: My dream feature for helping things would be to facilitate teamwork [10:02pm] sonia: WittyLama: global watchlists would be a dream [10:03pm] Nihiltres: think the suggestion bot, but looking for articles *that other people are actively working on* [10:03pm] sgardner: Aude: WikiCup looks fun! (I think contests are great. I like the Commons picture of the year too.) [10:03pm] WittyLama: that would enable people to not have to maintain several independent userpages/identities as they work across languages etc. [10:03pm] sonia: StevenW: easier access to help pages and community discussions [10:03pm] StevenW: right [10:03pm] StevenW: and better help pages :) [10:03pm] Eloquence: WittyLama, it's in the feature taxonomy, but not in the list of prioritized WMF projects right now. [10:03pm] arjunaraoc left the chat room. (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [10:03pm] Orderinchaos: global watchlists would rock. [10:04pm] StevenW: Yeah, so I was kind of wondering... do people feel like if they talk about the Editor Trends Study and the March Update -- or at least the ideas in them -- that enough people have heard about them? [10:04pm] WittyLama: Eloquence - speaking of prioritisation... I'm very much on-board with Rich-text/WYSIWYG being top of the agenda, but what does that mean for other things? Do they get shelved indefinitely until rich text is finalised? I'm thinking specifically of the redesign of liquidthreads. [10:04pm] StevenW: On wiki I mean [10:04pm] sgardner: By the way, Philippe just posted some new documents on participation here: [10:04pm] sgardner: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=March_2011_Update&action=historysubmit&diff=79724&oldid=78214 [10:05pm] sgardner: (They are things we discussed in the office today in our monthly performance meeting.) [10:05pm] Eloquence: WittyLama, I responded to you re LQT on the LQT LQT page :p [10:05pm] sonia: the lqt lqt... [10:05pm] sgardner: Sorry: did not mean to derail from Steven's question :-) [10:05pm] StevenW: no that's fine [10:05pm] sgardner: _Are_ people talking about it, beyond on that talk page? I am really curious. [10:05pm] sonia: StevenW: I don't think many people find it an issue. [10:06pm] Eloquence: WittyLama, the general answer is that we're still too small to make many things happen in parallel. we're thinking about an add'l engineering presence in a lower salary part of the world to beef up our capacity. [10:06pm] Risker: sgardner, a lot of people avoid strategywiki because it's non-SUL, and they don't want to edit/comment there. They may read a specific link, but otherwise they avoid it [10:07pm] Eloquence: Risker, your SUL account should work there, you're just not automatically logged in. [10:07pm] aude: Eloquence: what about engaging chapters more in engineering? having chapters hire some engineering folks or take on projects? [10:07pm] Risker: Eloquence, people have now been "trained" to expect that automatic login. One IP edit and they're out of there [10:07pm] Eloquence: aude, absolutely - I've been lobbying WM UK and WM DE to become pioneers in that regard. [10:07pm] aude: of course, tech needs overall coordination [10:08pm] WittyLama: a list of tech projects that the WMF is not going to personally fund but would support if they were funded externally would be neat, IMO [10:08pm] StevenW: Risker does have a point there. [10:08pm] aude: WittyLama: +1 [10:08pm] sonia: aude: or we could kill a few birds w/ one stone and expand the ambassador program to technical projects as well as article-writing [10:08pm] Eloquence: Risker, yeah. we may just want to slot it into the autologin queue especially for times when we're heavily using it. [10:08pm] Demiurge1000: historically, WYSIWYG doesn't tend to produce improvements. If it's already been decided that such a thing is "top of the agenda", are we sure we're happy with that? [10:09pm] Dcoetzee joined the chat room. [10:09pm] sgardner: Yeah. I don't care if they're talking on the strategy wiki (although it would be great if they were) .. but I am curious to know if they're talking at all, anywhere, about the issue. [10:09pm] aude: sonia: there is google summer of code which has similarities to the ambassadors program [10:09pm] Dcoetzee left the chat room. (Changing host) [10:09pm] Dcoetzee joined the chat room. [10:09pm] WittyLama: sonia: well there is the "fellowships" system - that can be for tech projects too (technically) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Fellowships [10:09pm] sgardner: Have you guys talked about it, before this chat? [10:09pm] aude: maybe chapters could participate also in GSOC? [10:09pm] Eloquence: WittyLama, that's the general idea of the "Red Links" in the product whitepaper. [10:09pm] Nihiltres: Demiurge1000: I don't think WYSIWYG *should* really be the goal (WYSIWYM++), but there's a lot of low-hanging fruit [10:10pm] matthewrbowker left the chat room. (Quit: Bedtime. Sorry, everyone.) [10:10pm] Dcoetzee: WYSIWYG per se is not necessarily the best goal. [10:10pm] StevenW: it's also definitely not the only goal [10:11pm] Dcoetzee: But editing has a lot of issues that could be addressed with a more dynamic and rich interface. [10:11pm] Demiurge1000: ok, my concern it was just described as being the top priority [10:11pm] StevenW: the big mistake is thinking that any big tech change will save the project [10:11pm] StevenW: alone [10:11pm] sonia: I don't think people are being bold enough about strategywiki in general; waiting for a "somebody" to give them permission [10:11pm] Nihiltres: WYSIWYG sucks because it downplays semantics (what you mean e.g. "this is a header") in relation to appearance (what you see e.g. "This is large, bold text that *looks* like a title") [10:11pm] • aude thinks the important first step towards wysiwyg is Brion's work on the parser [10:11pm] Eloquence: http://www.aloha-editor.org/ is an example of the kind of visual editing interface that I think we can learn a lot from. [10:11pm] sonia: Nihiltres: yep [10:12pm] • aude thanks Eloquence and sgardner on getting Brion back :) [10:12pm] sgardner: Can I ask, why do people feel like WYSIWYG shouldn't be the top, or only, priority? (I have my own thinking, but I'm curious about what yours is.) [10:12pm] Eloquence: aude, thank danese (and brion :P) [10:12pm] sgardner: (WYSIWYG/RTE.) [10:12pm] sgardner: Brion! :-) [10:12pm] Demiurge1000: sgardner: What evidence do you have that it *should* be the top priority? [10:12pm] Nihiltres: sgardner: I think that we really want WYSIWYM, not WYSIWYG [10:12pm] Dcoetzee: WYSIWYG shouldn't be the top priority partly because of Nihiltres's reasoning. People will tend to coax the page into looking the way they like, rather than reflecting the semantic document structure they want. [10:12pm] Demiurge1000: yeah totally agree with Nihiltres [10:12pm] aude: improving the parser is totally a prerequisite for wysiwyg to work ( and would help wysiwym) [10:13pm] Dcoetzee: The result is inconsistency of presentation, etc. [10:13pm] Nihiltres: aude++ [10:13pm] aude: to work well enough [10:13pm] Eloquence: Demiurge1000, you can read more about the WMF feature justification for RTE here: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Product_Whitepaper#Great_Movement_Projects:_Rich-text_editing_interface.2C_and_the_-1_to_100_edit_experience [10:13pm] sonia: one thing that worries me is that making the interface exactly like Word or emails, is that people will all the more use it as a webhost [10:13pm] Dcoetzee: And difficulty in adapting Wikipedia content to other devices and interfaces. [10:13pm] sgardner: Demiurge1000, no no, I'm not making an argument in favour of it. I am curious to know why people are saying what they're saying, that's all. [10:13pm] Demiurge1000: sgardner: Well, yes, that works the other way too... we would like to know why people are saying what they're saying [10:13pm] sgardner: Right, right, right. I hear you all. [10:13pm] Shakata|Mac joined the chat room. [10:13pm] aude: sgardner: probably a bigger priority is again newbie biting and handling influx of edits [10:14pm] aude: get us to the point where we're doing well with that, and mentorship,e tc. [10:14pm] sgardner: (About WYSIWYG, people using us as a webhost, etc.) [10:14pm] sonia: why, again, is article creation not set to >autoconfirmed? [10:14pm] WittyLama: WYSIWYG/WYSIWYM/Rich-Text-Edior - whatever you want to call it... the issue isn't what the code is called, the issue is the fact that it's too damn hard to edit. I was at "Recent Changes Camp Sydney" two nights ago and the people there - people who are specifically interested in Wikis - all said "this is 2011, why do I have to learn this crap" [10:14pm] Dcoetzee: The other reason I think WYSIWYG shouldn't be the top priority is because even for moderately experienced editors, it's relatively inefficient. [10:14pm] WittyLama: (when referring to mediawiki markup) [10:14pm] sgardner: what's relatively inefficient? [10:14pm] Eloquence: Dcoetzee, I don't think that's necessarily true. for example, wiki-tables are horribly ineffecient, and lots of people I know use hacks and workarounds to maintain them. [10:14pm] Dcoetzee: The process of editing. Rather than recalling the syntax to use, you have to hunt down the appropriate button or menu item. [10:15pm] sonia: it's easier to type through <ref>{{cite web| etc than use RefTools, for example [10:15pm] aude: WittyLama: i think it's too damn hard when your articles get deleted 2 sec after saving, and you get reverted [10:15pm] sgardner: (I am really curious about all this. It's all a little hard to talk about in text, but I'm listening, and I'm curious.) [10:15pm] Eloquence: but, the RTE we're developing is going to allow editing in either mode. that's what makes it hard. [10:15pm] Demiurge1000: sgardner: The point is, making it easier for newbies to produce content, does not deal with the problem where 1000 newbies produce content that doesn't meet the requirements for wikipedia, and 9 new page patrollers get rid of their articles because they have to move on to getting rid of the next article that doesn't meet the requirements [10:15pm] StevenW: okay [10:15pm] sgardner: Demiurge1000: right!! [10:15pm] pradx: the current editor is great - and I'd like to see WYSIWYG editor being a moderately experienced editor [10:15pm] sgardner: I totally agree. [10:15pm] Dcoetzee: For complex things like tables, a GUI interface makes sense. For simple things like links, not so much. [10:15pm] • aude loves http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SVGEdit [10:15pm] Risker: tables!!! [10:15pm] aude: yay brion! [10:15pm] StevenW: tables are the devil [10:16pm] • Risker loathes the wiki-table method [10:16pm] Eloquence: Dcoetzee, citations? ;-) [10:16pm] Brian_S: Brion rules. [10:16pm] Brian_S: Cause his name is like mine. [10:16pm] Brian_S: Except with an "o". [10:16pm] Nihiltres: for links, basic formatting, etc., syntax highlighting would make more sense [10:16pm] Risker: citations are a huge issue in enwp, don't know how other projects are doing it [10:16pm] sgardner: I personally think that RTE (or, infinitely easier editing, or whatever) is really important, because the interface, as WittyLama said, is just way too pointless hard/irritating to use. [10:16pm] StevenW: Tables and templates are two big, big complex barriers [10:16pm] StevenW: even fixing them alone would really help IMO [10:16pm] Demiurge1000: sgardner: So in fact we need to *not* be making WYSIWYG a priority for editors, but in fact making an easier interface for new page patrollers. Or *something* to help new page patrollers, at least. [10:16pm] Nihiltres: Tables are one of the few areas that would seriously benefit from WYSIWYG [10:16pm] sgardner: But like Demiurge1000, I don't think that 'easier editing' is by any means the entire solution to our editor retention problem. [10:17pm] sonia: sgardner: the interface is hard because our specific style guide is hard as well. [10:17pm] Risker: I would hope with RTE we could get rid of a lot of temples [10:17pm] Risker:

  • templates

[10:17pm] Eloquence: I do encourage folks to watch the usability videos at http://bpluv.com/wikipedia/ [10:17pm] sgardner: Well, it is also hard to write an encyclopedia article. It's not like maintaining your Facebook page. [10:17pm] Eloquence: just to get a sense what people think of our strange syntax when they see it for the first time :) [10:17pm] Dcoetzee: This is what I mean by efficiency. Once you learn to use link syntax, using the syntax is considerably more efficient than using some kind of link button with a form like on the toolbar. And those are used often enough that it makes a difference. [10:17pm] StevenW: yeah the vids Eloquence linked to prove a lot of the thinking around what exactly makes it difficult to edit [10:17pm] Demiurge1000: Yeah I agree that a lot of the incoming material really is just people who made a nice Facebook page and now just want to make a nice WP page too. Some of them even said so to me. [10:18pm] Dcoetzee: Whereas more infrequently used things, or complex tasks could easily be relegated to a less efficient interface. [10:18pm] sgardner: I am so interested in how the new page patrollers could be better supported / helped. [10:18pm] StevenW: or recruited [10:18pm] StevenW: I saw the Village Pump post about needing more the other day [10:18pm] sonia: sgardner, at the moment there's a twofold problem: lack of patrollers, and lack of /knowledgeable/ or /helpful/ patrollers. [10:18pm] • Risker likes to do NPP, works from the back of the list [10:18pm] Eloquence: RTE and interventions in the new user experience (on both sides of the experience) have to go hand-in-hand. but I'm not worried about RTE arriving too soon. :p [10:18pm] pradx: I think you should get videos of people doing edits during WikiAcademies or something to get a gist of what people find difficult in different parts of the world. [10:19pm] Nihiltres: The issue with a lot of new pages is that they are edge cases [10:19pm] Risker: that would be interesting, pradx. Different projects may have different issues [10:19pm] StevenW: yeah pradx one of the weaknesses of the usability videos was the location and sample. it's not perfect [10:19pm] sonia is now known as sonia|afk. [10:19pm] Nihiltres: e.g. something that is probably notable, but the article is unreferenced, unformatted, unclear [10:19pm] sgardner: sonia: yes, and it's a vicious circle. Because if there aren't enough of them, the ones who are there get progressively more overwhelmed and impatient. [10:20pm] • aude was quite sad about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Table_namespace being disabled [10:20pm] Eloquence: Dcoetzee, I honestly find Google Docs vastly more efficient than wiki for any professional document editing, for a million reasons. but I won't say that there can't be productivity benefits in markup. [10:20pm] sgardner: What if new page patrollers could punt edge cases to somewhere else, for someone else to review? [10:20pm] Nihiltres: A really good data point was the big Old Man Murray discussion recently [10:20pm] Dcoetzee: One option... this might sound dramatic, but why not put *all* new articles through AfC? [10:20pm] aude: "The "Table:" namespace has been disabled again until the community makes up its mind if it really wants it or not." [10:20pm] Dcoetzee: That sounds crazy, but it would drive a lot more people to help out there. [10:20pm] Demiurge1000: sgardner: The problem is that NP patrollers tend to be the experts... who would deal with what they can't deal with? [10:21pm] Nihiltres: The idea of a "table namespace" always sounds like "a second template namespace" to me [10:21pm] Dcoetzee: There would be no rush to delete new articles or bite newbies if their article is, by default, in a sandbox. [10:21pm] Demiurge1000: sgardner: If I spend time doing NPP I am sure I could arrange for an experienced NPP to take the cases I struggled with, or at least offer me advice. But the whole package is still too much. For me at any rate, and seemingly for most people. [10:22pm] Eloquence: Dcoetzee, I think a process like AFC should be looked at from some distance and compared to other processes like the Russian Wikipedia incubator that was discussed earlier. AFC assumes that learning in multiple steps has to happen first, but perhaps depositing text in a separate namespace and inviting collaboration early is a more scalable approach. [10:22pm] Dcoetzee: Hmm [10:22pm] • aude sees it as a step towards a table editor, and separate the table markup from articles ( tables != templates in all cases) [10:22pm] pradx: articles in sandboxes might sound great to us but may be discouraging to the newbies. It kinda means that you don't trust them enough to put their articles live. [10:22pm] aude: less funky wiki markup directly in the article is good [10:22pm] pradx: it happens only in a few cases tho [10:22pm] sgardner: Demiurge1000: I wasn't thinking so much about expertise, but more about orientation. When I did new page patrol (admittedly very very very briefly :-), I felt like I was in a FPS: I felt lots of pressure to make fast decisions and keep up. I could imagine a two stage world, where I am doing that, but punting to you edge cases for more deliberation. We would both in theory have the same expertise, but we would be playing different roles. [10:22pm] aude: but click here to edit the table or go to the table markup [10:23pm] Demiurge1000: pradx: It has to work that way because the requirements for a "proper" wikipedia article are so daunting now [10:23pm] StevenW: This conversation is so good (yay productive office hours!) but I am getting sleepy... [10:23pm] Eloquence: pradx, we need more data & more systematic experimentation with different approaches. [10:23pm] Nihiltres: I feel like we need to push to users just what that is [10:23pm] sgardner: I just think that the person patrolling is in a hurry. And edge cases deserve at least some minimal level of consideration. [10:23pm] Dcoetzee: pradx: Let me put it this way. On TV Tropes the article creation process is *technically* optional, but like 95% of new articles use it. [10:23pm] Nihiltres: emphasis on *PUSH* [10:23pm] sgardner: Interesting, Dcoetzee. [10:24pm] pradx: demiurge1000: yeah, people in India say we need to let them edit on the Indic Wikipedias which don't yet have such a daunting requirement set :) [10:24pm] Eloquence: there was a wikiguides rfc on new page creation for those who haven't seen it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiki_Guides/Allow_IP_editors_to_create_articles [10:24pm] Ktr101: StevenW: you're a light weight when it comes to sleep [10:24pm] StevenW: I am. [10:24pm] Ktr101: or i'm just crazy [10:24pm] Dcoetzee: pradx: The reason is because the forum is so active, they want to go there to get a lot of feedback as soon as possible. [10:24pm] Risker: sgardner, keep in mind that those who work at the back end of NPP (the oldest "new" pages) are working on pages 25-30 days old. Tons of pages are "punted" [10:24pm] Dcoetzee: Sometimes I see existing tropes go back through YKTTW just to get more examples, or more input. [10:24pm] Ktr101: besides, i'm not supposed to be calling you a lightweight tonight on topics concerning sleep [10:24pm] sgardner: Another thing new editors tell us is that they don't know what to do, they don't know what the default is supposed to be, they want to play by the rules but can't tell what they are. I'm sure they would be happy to use an incubator type thing, if they were told it is normal. [10:24pm] Nihiltres: StevenW: :P remember, Montreal is 3 hours ahead of you :P [10:24pm] sgardner: Ah. Risker, I didn't know that. [10:25pm] Eloquence: the current new page creation experience is very confusing, because you get a different result depending on what you do first (create an account, click a red link, etc.) [10:25pm] StevenW: I know Nihiltres. :) We were pleasantly surprised to see everyone still up. [10:25pm] Ktr101: Risker: but also we have ironholds clearing out the backlog a lot recently so we're getting some work on that aspect [10:25pm] Demiurge1000: sgardner: Yeah, find a way to tell them that there is no way their article will go live until it has been in an incubator for a minimum of one week, and they need to update it at least once every two days during that time [10:26pm] Nihiltres: Demiurge1000: that sounds like a recipe for "bump" edits [10:26pm] Ktr101: Demiurge1000: that might be off-putting though [10:26pm] Risker: our "best" NPP workers (lots of experience) tend to work on the oldest stuff, that requires the hardest decisions [10:26pm] Demiurge1000: Ktr101: Getting all their articles deleted or rejected is also off-puting [10:27pm] sgardner: Demiurge1000, yeah. I think people would be totally fine with that. [10:27pm] Eloquence: Demiurge1000, IMO a better positioning is that their article needs to either be adopted by experienced users or worked on by them on their own consistent with guidelines and advice [10:27pm] pradx: you're goint to put them off eventually [10:27pm] Ktr101: yes, but having them told that their work won't go live for a week might discourage those who are thrilled by seeing their work go live immediately [10:27pm] Nihiltres: I'd rather just say "You need ≥3 good sources before it goes live" [10:27pm] Demiurge1000: Eloquence: Yes but how do you persuade experienced users to work with the thousands of incoming articles? [10:27pm] Dcoetzee: It's exactly the same debate as pending changes. [10:27pm] Eloquence: Demiurge1000, make it more fun and rewarding to adopt articles and new users :-) [10:27pm] Ktr101: Demiurge1000: money! [10:28pm] Eloquence: both might work ;-) [10:28pm] Nihiltres: a straightforward rule means that users don't hit the wall of being surprised at an article being deleted [10:28pm] Ktr101: we're mostly college students anyways [10:28pm] Dcoetzee: It's nice to see your changes go live instantly... but also nice to have more scrutiny and feedback. [10:28pm] aude: Demiurge1000: need more online ambassadors [10:28pm] Demiurge1000: This is going well. Some people are offering me rewards, and others are offering me money. [10:28pm] Eloquence: you know where this is going Demiurge1000. immoral proposals are not far off. [10:28pm] Ktr101: Demiurge1000: as it should be on wikipedia [10:28pm] Nihiltres: Eloquence: XD [10:28pm] Dcoetzee: But I honestly think most newbies creating articles are *terrified* they're doing something wrong. They want feedback from experienced community members. [10:29pm] Ktr101: i can't wait to see links to sites offering sex for articles [10:29pm] Shakata|Office left the chat room. (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [10:29pm] Shakata|Office_ joined the chat room. [10:29pm] Dcoetzee: Hell, I would feel better having my new articles reviewed too :-P [10:29pm] Demiurge1000: Dcoetzee: I don't agree. Newbies are happy to co-operate, but mostly they just as "what do I need to do to make this article live now???" they are not terrified at all [10:29pm] Nihiltres: …enough rule 34 of NPP, kthx [10:29pm] Eloquence: if wikipedia can get you laid we'll reverse the editor decline in no time. unfortunately it's more the opposite. it will get you .. unlaid. [10:30pm] StevenW: it's the saucy office hours lol [10:30pm] Dcoetzee: (I'm sure Jimbo Wales has gotten laid due to Wikipedia :-P) [10:30pm] sgardner: It's 1030! [10:30pm] Demiurge1000: Dcoetzee: Where I do agree is that there are not enough people helping, to deal with the vast influx of people wanting to put up new articles. [10:30pm] sgardner: Time to wrap up. LOLOLOL. [10:30pm] jayvdb: I dont think that motivation would result in a positive change in the culture of Wikipedia [10:30pm] Demiurge1000: Dcoetzee: That's the wiki*leaks* guy you are thinking of. Now stop thinking of him, and start behaving. [10:31pm] Nihiltres: jayvdb: but a positive change might help motivation, at least :/ [10:31pm] Ktr101: Dcoetzee: "OMG YOU EDIT WIKIPEDIA?! We are so having sex right now..." [10:31pm] StevenW: we're all drunk it sounds like lol [10:31pm] Dcoetzee: Moving right along... [10:32pm] sgardner: StevenW and I are going to wrap up now, LOL. It's past his bedtime :-) [10:32pm] StevenW: hardy har [10:32pm] StevenW: but true [10:32pm] Dcoetzee: Demiurge1000: I don't think increasing the new page patrol force is the right answer, because I think it's important to have a discussion with multiple participants about each new article. [10:32pm] pradx: it's morning here - not the right time to be drunk :) [10:32pm] sgardner: pradx are you in India? [10:32pm] Ktr101: sgardner: you clearly aren't a cool wikipedian as all the cool ones stay up late and make the most interesting edits this late at night [10:32pm] pradx: yeah [10:32pm] Demiurge1000: Dcoetzee: I didn't understand what you just said. [10:32pm] sgardner: I am still in the office Ktr101, there is plenty of time for me to edit once I get home :-) [10:32pm] pradx: sgardner: yeah [10:33pm] Ktr101: oh right, you have a job :) [10:33pm] sgardner: All right. Have a lovely morning pradx, and the rest of you have a lovely evening :-) [10:33pm] StevenW: thanks for talking everyone. this was a great office hours. [10:33pm] Demiurge1000: thanks for your time people [10:33pm] Dcoetzee: sgardner, StevenW: Take care, have a good night. :-) [10:33pm] • Eloquence takes the remaining cookies [10:33pm] sgardner: Please do take a look at the docs Philippe posted if you have a minute: they are really interesting. [10:33pm] StevenW:

)

[10:33pm] Nihiltres: I made it to the office hours for once! :P [10:33pm] sgardner: Thanks guys;. see you next time :-) [10:33pm] Ktr101: night [10:33pm] Demiurge1000: I've not participated in one of these before, it was interesting