IRC office hours/Office hours 2011-12-21
Philippe: I don't have an agenda for this meeting at all. I just thought I'd show up and say hi to whomever wanted.
[12:02am] Philippe: And I have some end-of-year stats
[12:02am] Philippe: and probably I'll ask Maggie to tell you a little about her experiences with us as well.
[12:02am] StevenW: stats!
[12:02am] StevenW: yay.
[12:02am] Philippe: StevenW has gone data happy.
[12:02am] StevenW: yep
[12:03am] Philippe: But before we do that, does everyone (or, rather, anyone?) understand what Reader Relations does?
[12:03am] Risker: well, actually, that's always been a bit hazy
[12:03am] Philippe: Heh, I thought it might have been.
[12:03am] mindspillage: I always assumed it was magic.
[12:03am] Philippe: So once you've got it all sorted, please let me know. : )
[12:04am] AlexandrDmitri: The who is responsible for what is less clear to me these days
[12:04am] Philippe: OK, Reader Relations was a group that formed out of the strategy process.
[12:04am] Philippe: Initially, it was supposed to focus on and amplify the voice of the 99% of the folks who come to the projects… the ones who never hit the edit button.
[12:05am] Philippe: Then, Frank was focused on New Editors, and Cary on Experienced Editors.
[12:05am] Philippe: Only, it turns out, it didn't make much sense to organize ourselves that way, and Cary went to seminary.
[12:05am] Philippe: Sooooooooo
[12:05am] Philippe: A few things that we (meaning me, Maggie, and whatever staff resources I can steal from other places) do...
[12:06am] Philippe: We handle the "customer service" work of the Foundation… phone calls from BLP subjects, companies, etc
[12:06am] StevenW: What about DMCAs?
[12:06am] Philippe: A large part of our day is spent supporting the community: Maggie's work as liaison, attempting to provide a single point-of-contact for groups within the community like (Arbcom, and OTRS, and such)
[12:06am] Philippe: And, as legal says, we also support folks within the community… our legal team (as they do DMCAs and fight back other things)
[12:07am] Philippe: and our tech department, and things like that.
[12:07am] Philippe: We also connect community members with staff members when they're not sure who to ask.
[12:07am] Philippe: And, then… the dreaded "Other duties as assigned".
[12:08am] Philippe: I've been the Foundation's liaison to the Board elections, the referendum election, and even somehow ended up running one of the fundraisers.
[12:08am] Philippe: So it's an incredibly wide remit, which makes it all the more fun.
[12:08am] mindspillage: (you mean to say after dealing with Experienced Editors, Cary felt that the only way to fix the problem was through divine intervention?)
[12:08am] Philippe: mindspillage: no, I believe that's what YOU said. I personally never went near that statement.
[12:09am] Philippe: (i disclaim all knowledge of anything mindspillage may have said, thought, or uttered)
[12:09am] Risker: wise choice, Philippe
[12:09am] Philippe: So, since that's done… what does that mean? Stats.
[12:09am] Risker: yes please
[12:09am] Philippe: Since I started tracking them (around May 1), we've handled 448 "tickets".
[12:10am] Philippe: Tickets don't mean "every phone call", they mean "everything big enough that we want to log and track it"
[12:10am] Thehelpfulone left the chat room. (Quit: Bye! If you need any help poke me when I come back online or /msg memoserv send Thehelpfulone <message>)
[12:10am] Philippe: So, if we look at the areas that those cover, about 20% of them are incidents related to biographies of living people.
[12:10am] Philippe: Now, of those, we push a huge majority of them to the community's existing processes...
[12:11am] Philippe: things like the email response team (aka OTRS)
[12:11am] Philippe: About another 17% of the tickets that we've opened have been what I roughly classify as "Administration". That's things like helping out the tech team with an idea, or working on an election.
[12:12am] Philippe: About 20% of our tickets are from a bucket that we call "Emergency". If you have ever emailed emergency [at] wikimedia.org to report an incident (things like suicide threats, or threats against a political figure), you're in that group.
[12:12am] StevenW: How much of the email to the emergency address is bogus, would you say? And by bogus, I mean trolling.
[12:12am] Philippe: And about 12% of our tickets relate to directly supporting our legal team, either through DMCA takedowns, or giving advice.
[12:13am] Philippe: StevenW: great question, actually. From the Emergency tickets its' about a 2:1 ratio of "not reported to the authorities" to "reported"
[12:13am] StevenW: Interesting.
[12:14am] Philippe: So, about 61% of them we are able, using our tools and protocols, to eliminate as non-credible threats.
[12:14am] Philippe: (for instance, if you tell me you just put a bomb in a mall in Houston, but you're logged on from Dubai…)
[12:14am] StevenW: Right
[12:15am] Philippe: The fun part about those though - as Moonriddengirl will affirm - is that they happen at all hours of the day or night.
[12:15am] Moonriddengirl: Yes. One of the enjoyable parts of the job...the 3:00 a.m. emergency.
[12:15am] Philippe: Which typically means our phones ring, and Moonriddengirl gets to deal with a very cranky "me" at 6AM
[12:15am] Philippe: It is NOT a fun moment
[12:16am] Philippe: But with all of these goals, our main job is to isolate the stuff that should belong to the community and push it back to the community.
[12:16am] Philippe: We don't edit the encyclopedia to correct BLP issues, for instance. We refer them back to the community.
[12:16am] Philippe: In all, about 30% of the tickets that were opened were referred back to existing community processes.
[12:16am] Philippe: Obviously, I'd like to drive that higher.
[12:16am] Philippe: Does that all make sense?
[12:17am] matthewrbowker: Philippe: Yes, it does
[12:17am] Philippe: Thanks, matthewrbowker
[12:17am] AlexandrDmitri: As much sense as anything at midnight does - yes indeed
[12:17am] Ziko: fine, thanks
[12:17am] Moonriddengirl: I'd just like to note that one of the challenges with pushing them back to community is that sometimes before they come to us the community has already had a go.
[12:17am] Philippe: Sorry about the time, AlexandrDmitri (and Ziko!) … I was trying to be "asia friendly"
[12:17am] Philippe: ooooh, that's a goodpoint, Moonriddengirl.
[12:17am] matthewrbowker: Philippe: You mean US friendly? This is the only time I can get on
[12:18am] Philippe: Frequently the community DID have a shot at it first. And the correspondent doesn't like their answer, or thinks that the Foundation will "outrank" the volunteeers.
[12:18am] Philippe: We spend a lot of time explaining why that won't EVER happen.
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[12:19am] matthewrbowker: Philippe: An aside, I find that a lot with en.wp admins, too. So it seems to be a big problem OK, carry on.
[12:19am] Philippe: Good point, matthew, actually. I've never really looked at the parallel, but you're right.
[12:19am] Philippe: There's probably a lesson there in how we handle those types of tickets internally.
[12:19am] • Philippe makes a note
[12:20am] Ziko: i understand that people like personal messages, but after a lot of experiences with people who just want to try out how far they can go with their ad pushing, i have come to love standardized answers
[12:20am] Philippe: Ziko, (and i'm purposely not looking at StevenW as I say this) - I use templates in my mail. *cringe*
[12:20am] Moonriddengirl: Ziko, I still sometimes wind up applying the "law of diminishing returns." Say less, say it less often.
[12:20am] Philippe: I try really hard not to use them on wiki… because I don't think they come across the same… but by mail, yeah.
[12:21am] Moonriddengirl: After you've done all you can to explain, there's not much more to do.
[12:21am] Philippe: So, as a kind of year-end-accountability exercise, I'd rather like to talk about the things that I think we could do better next year. And then, hopefully next year, I'll read this log and go "yup, yup, yup, oh crap… missed that one."
[12:22am] Philippe: One of my major goals for this year was to standardize our processes and get to a point where we had some stats. Check.
[12:22am] Risker: some examples?
[12:23am] Philippe: A major goal for next year, from my perspective, is to increase my understanding of the non-English projects. Quite simply, I suck at it.
[12:23am] Philippe: I can fight my way through the French Wikipedia, but I don't really "get" it.
[12:23am] Philippe: I want to fix that.
[12:23am] StevenW left the chat room. (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[12:23am] Moonriddengirl: That's an important goal, I think.
[12:23am] Philippe: What I know about the non-English projects is an inch deep. I think it's important that we do better.
[12:24am] Philippe: Another huge goal for me is to more effectively use our community liaison.
[12:24am] Philippe: Poor Maggie has been with us for six months, and it took her just about that long to figure out the chaos that is my desk.
[12:24am] Philippe: (By the way, we never really mentioned it but…. we just renewed Maggie's contract.)
[12:24am] Moonriddengirl: Oh, yes!
[12:25am] Philippe: (and I think Sue mentioned in Germany that we're looking forward to hiring a counterpart to her from the German community)
[12:25am] Philippe: So, hopefully goal #2 (using liaisons) will also help with goal #1 (increasing understanding of communities)
[12:25am] Philippe: But Maggie… why don't you take a minute, let my fingers rest, and tell us what you do?
[12:26am] Moonriddengirl: Okay.
[12:26am] Moonriddengirl: First, I share Philippe's goal - getting a better understanding of *all* of our projects is a major focus of mine.
[12:26am] StevenW joined the chat room.
[12:26am] Philippe: wb (StevenW)
[12:26am] Moonriddengirl: I've been talking to people from a few different communities about ways to do this. It's important, I think, that we get an accurate picture of what's going on.
[12:26am] StevenW: wifi troubles
[12:26am] StevenW was promoted to operator by ChanServ.
[12:27am] Moonriddengirl: I spend a fair amount of time just trying to keep up with what's going on with the major English projects as well as mailing lists and elsewhere.
[12:27am] Moonriddengirl: I try to keep an eye out for things staff need to know. For instance, a few times in the past months I've been able to steer the legal team to conversations happening on Commons,
[12:27am] Moonriddengirl: where serious copyright questions needed legal input.
[12:28am] Moonriddengirl: I've also been keeping an eye out especially for fundraising issues lately and passing those along to the fundraising team.
[12:28am] Moonriddengirl: Antoher of my major focal points is the Answers system.
[12:28am] Moonriddengirl: Let me snag a link to that....
[12:28am] Philippe: i'll get it MRG
[12:28am] Philippe: you go on
[12:28am] Sir48 joined the chat room.
[12:28am] Moonriddengirl: Oh, okay.
[12:28am] Philippe: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Questions_for_Wikimedia%3F
[12:28am] Moonriddengirl: It's an email response system where community members and readers can write for information from the Wikimedia Foundation.
[12:29am] Philippe: Think of it as an FAQ for the Foundation
[12:29am] Moonriddengirl: Some of what we get is pushed back to the community. We don't do content questions. For instance, I got a letter from a gentleman unhappy with the way the name of the band "The Bangles" was translated on his project.
[12:29am] Moonriddengirl: That's not our department.
[12:29am] Moonriddengirl: But I get some specific calls for assistance that I forward along to staff members. Lately, a lot of these are related to donations.
[12:29am] Moonriddengirl: And I've gotten some general questions about the way the Foundation works that have, yes, fed into an ongoing FAQ.
[12:30am] Moonriddengirl: I've also been helping staff with community in a few ways.
[12:30am] Moonriddengirl: But I also try to help acquaint staff ... especially new staff ... with community cultures.
[12:30am] Moonriddengirl: Some staff are familiar with Wikipedia and the other projects, while others are not.
[12:31am] MER-C joined the chat room.
[12:31am] Moonriddengirl: I've got a few smaller side projects on the burner, but I think that may be the major areas I'm working on.
[12:31am] Moonriddengirl: Hi, MER-C! :
[12:31am] Moonriddengirl: Am I missing anything, Philippe?
[12:31am] MER-C: good morning
[12:31am] Philippe: And let me apologize here and now (especially since MER-C has just joined us) for taking Maggie away from copyright work
[12:31am] Moonriddengirl: I'm trying to keep on top of it!
[12:31am] Philippe: She still tries to get her time in.
[12:32am] Moonriddengirl: MER-C can attest, I'm sure, that I put in at least a few hours every weekend. I try not to count them.
[12:32am] Philippe: So, I have one other major goal for next year, and then I'm going to look for help figuring out what I've missed….
[12:32am] MER-C: that's true
[12:32am] Moonriddengirl: (That said, we need to get him some bots. He has to do way too much manual labor!)
[12:32am] Philippe: My third major goal for next year is to surface some transparency related stats. We do it now, but they're all over the place and badly organized.
[12:33am] Philippe: For instance, most people would have NO CLUE that you can go to www.wikimediafoundation.org to find out what DMCA requests we've acted on.
[12:33am] Philippe: So I'm pushing really hard to create a transparency report so that the community knows exactly what we've done along those lines.
[12:33am] mabdul joined the chat room.
[12:33am] Philippe: I am very fond of the one that Google did, and I think it's a pretty good model for us.
[12:34am] Philippe: So, with those three major priorities for me laid out…. what did I miss?
[12:34am] StevenW: http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/
[12:34am] StevenW: That what you mean?
[12:34am] Philippe: Thank you, Steven
[12:34am] Philippe: yes, exactly
[12:35am] Philippe: oh c'mon, I know I didn't get it exactly right. Surely we've missed something
[12:35am] Moonriddengirl: Anybody have any questions? Maybe that will spur thoughts.
[12:35am] Philippe: Wow, or not if even Risker is happy….
[12:35am] Philippe: OK, then, for the second part of our show, Moonriddengirl is going to juggle.
[12:35am] Philippe: Hit it.
[12:36am] StevenW: Maybe folks are just stupefied by eggnog or something.
[12:36am] Moonriddengirl: LOL! Juggling goes over so well in a text forum.
[12:36am] • James_F grins.
[12:36am] Moonriddengirl: Well, I can share one of my challenges.
[12:36am] Philippe: OK, so, James_F is drunk.
[12:36am] Philippe: Plz do, Moonriddengirl
[12:36am] Moonriddengirl: One of the more exciting things I get to do is find contributors in languages I don't know to help me resolve issues in their projects.
[12:36am] • Philippe nods
[12:37am] • Risker was busy reading answers
[12:37am] Moonriddengirl: The OTRS volunteer lists are a big help there, but we have surprisingly few mechanisms for languages that don't have OTRS coverages.
[12:37am] Moonriddengirl: Most projects have categories of users who speak certain languages.
[12:37am] Moonriddengirl: Digging through to find the ones who are still active and actually clued in, that's some serious detective work.
[12:37am] Moonriddengirl: That's one reason why I personally am hoping to expand my network of contacts in other languages.
[12:38am] Moonriddengirl: I can generally find, for instance, a Spanish speaking editor on the English Wikipedia, but they don't necessarily know the Spanish Wikipedia. I need somebody who does.
[12:38am] Philippe: And if you've ever made the mistake of answering a call for help from Moonriddengirl, you're in the system forever: )
[12:38am] Moonriddengirl: LOL! True that. I keep lists.
[12:38am] AlexandrDmitri: Noted
[12:39am] Philippe: Oh please, AlexandrDmitri, you're already on MY list of people to ask
[12:39am] Ziko: posting on the village pump does not always create a contact, isn't it
[12:39am] mabdul: topic?
[12:39am] Philippe: Ziko, posting on the village pump RARELY creates a contact.
[12:39am] Philippe: mabdul: we're talking about the Foundation's reader relations team, and how we can better support the communities.
[12:40am] mabdul: thanks, just came online
[12:40am] Philippe: welcome, and glad you made it. I'll post a log when we're done
[12:40am] Moonriddengirl: Ziko, sometimes public calls for assistance work, but not when we're dealing with sensitive issues...the kind of thing that people usually do write to OTRS about, but, say, can't, if OTRS doesn't cover their language.
[12:41am] varnent: Philippe: some extension developers have chatted about an extension allowing for sharing on social networks in a way that complies with privacy and gives users control over which networks to display, turning it off, etc.
[12:41am] Ziko: yes, i mean't for being a contact in general
[12:41am] Philippe: We get a fair number of things like that, too. And, of course, the mail. Physical mail. Frequently people send in their comments via physical mail, and without including an email address.
[12:41am] mabdul: I'm at a xmas party at my friends and they giving up
[12:41am] Moonriddengirl: General contacts, probably. But it always comes down to what you need.
[12:41am] Ziko: it may not politically correct, but one might be able to make an estimate how many wikipedias do have a vivid community
[12:41am] varnent: Philippe: it's being done to help a few smaller WMF wikis that have shown an interest in such a feature - curious if you ever hear feedback about that feature lacking or if people's privacy concerns seem to trump the interest on the larger wikis like enWP
[12:41am] Moonriddengirl: Do you mean by the number of people who respond at village pumps?
[12:42am] Philippe: varnent: I'd love to see such an extension in play.
[12:42am] Ziko: yes, for example
[12:42am] Moonriddengirl: I find them kind of hit or miss, Ziko.
[12:42am] Moonriddengirl: MER-C knows that I recently asked for assistance at Commons with a volunteer matter, and nobody responded at all.
[12:42am] Moonriddengirl: But Commons is a thriving community, generally.
[12:42am] Philippe: One of the things that we hear over and over again, varnent, is that readers want a Share/Like button. Some of our experienced editors are opposed to it, but readers really want it.
[12:42am] MER-C: not once, but twice
[12:42am] Philippe: Obviously, we won't use Facebook's tools for that, because they call a script.
[12:42am] varnent: Philippe: it's not on the subversion yet - but there's functional code on my laptop - http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiShare
[12:43am] Philippe: So I'd love it if someone made it work on a large scale level.
[12:43am] Philippe: or, you know, YOU did
[12:43am] • Philippe bookmarks that one
[12:43am] varnent: Philippe: okay - that's good to know - that was my thinking - may try to make it to SF hackathon to complete it and test it out a bit
[12:44am] Philippe: I'll say that when we experimented with just linking using the icons on the strategy wiki, I was very pleased with it.
[12:44am] Philippe: I think it works well, so anything to make that better is a win.
[12:44am] Philippe: varnent: when is the SF hackathon?
[12:44am] varnent: Philippe: I saw the discussions - but the arguments against share buttons seemed lacking (imho) and I felt that readers probably weren't chiming in - so I'm glad to hear we're not crazy for thinking they would indeed want it
[12:44am] varnent: mid-January
[12:44am] MER-C: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29/Archive_81#Does_Wikipedia_need_a_.E2.80.9Cshare.E2.80.9D_button.3F
[12:44am] Philippe: Thank you.
[12:44am] Chzz: grr. 'share'. grr
[12:45am] Philippe: Chzz, that's the problem.
[12:45am] Philippe: Don't react to that, read what varnent actually said
[12:45am] Chzz: no, it's not
[12:45am] AlexandrDmitri: Are there any particular major challenges coming up for Reader Relations next year ?
[12:45am] Chzz: the problem is... that you don't see the bigger picture here
[12:45am] Chzz: not sure if it's worth my bothering to explain tho
[12:46am] Philippe: Well, okay
[12:46am] Moonriddengirl: Philippe will surely answer the "challenges" question better than I can, but one of the things that makes my job...interesting...is how unpredictable things often are.
[12:46am] Philippe: AlexandrDmitri: Particular challenges…. yes, unpredictability.
[12:46am] Philippe: I literally can not plan a day. Because so much of what we do is triage.
[12:46am] Philippe: But other things that will be huge...
[12:46am] mabdul: Chzz: +1
[12:47am] Ziko: wmf has an advisory board. has there ever been the idea of a readers board?
[12:47am] Philippe: as the Foundation continues to explore ideas for India and Brazil, we'll need to support that. We want to make sure that we provide them with the best advice we can.
[12:47am] Chzz: wikipedia needs *more* *good* editors. Adding things like 'share' gets *more* - but not necc *good*. It makes Wikipedia into more and more of a 'social network' site. It isn't. enwiki is a fucking ENCYCLOPAEDIA - and people forget that
[12:47am] MER-C: agreed with Chzz: a share button will alienate a large portion of established editors
[12:47am] Philippe: Also, I want to work on how we on-board new staff to be sure that they're in touch with the history of the open-source communities and what our values are.
[12:47am] MER-C: it is already possible to share stuff by copy/pasting urls
[12:48am] Philippe: Chzz, I think we're looking at it from two different perspectives.
[12:48am] Chzz: "Approximately 3% of editors account for 85% of contributions to the project"
[12:48am] Philippe: I'm not thinking about it as a tool to drive up editors.
[12:48am] Chzz: (from signpost)
[12:48am] Philippe: I'm looking at it as a tool to get the content in front of more eyes.
[12:48am] • StevenW needs to head out
[12:48am] Chzz: WMF just want to make pretty graphs, to show you've increased "editor retention"
[12:48am] varnent: Chzz: we're also going to make sure editors have the ability to turn it off for themselves - so they won't have to worry about it if they don't want
[12:48am] StevenW: TTYL everyone
[12:48am] Philippe: Thanks, StevenW!
[12:48am] MER-C: Wikipedia is already in the top 10. Why is this even necessary?
[12:48am] Moonriddengirl: By, StevenW!
[12:48am] StevenW left the chat room. (Quit: StevenW)
[12:49am] Philippe: MER-C: think about the non-English languages
[12:49am] Philippe: How many of them are in the top 10?
[12:49am] varnent: Chzz: as far as it recruiting bad editors - I think that's a difficult position to argue against - you could argue that about ANY advertising of WP
[12:49am] Philippe: Ziko, to answer your question about a readers board...
[12:49am] Chzz: varnent that isn't the point; WikiLove, facebook, and the damn fool format of the "feedback" makes it look like facebook; not academia
[12:49am] mabdul: the real problem is that the editor who have no COI get declined and to deleted pages and the PR agents don't have to go to EN:WP:ACTRAIL!
[12:49am] Philippe: …to my knowledge, no, that's not been discussed, and I think it's a lovely idea.
[12:49am] Chzz: In English libraries, we allow, and indeed we encourage, children. However, if they start running around/shouting, they're disturbing more scholarly library-users, so they get kicked out. Same should apply here.
[12:49am] Philippe: I'm putting it on my list, Ziko.
[12:49am] MER-C: maybe, but that's no excuse for shoving it down en.wp's throat, ESPECIALLY with the lack of community consensus on the issue
[12:50am] Philippe: MER-C: nobody said that was even on the table.
[12:50am] Philippe: An extension developer proposed an extension.
[12:50am] Philippe: The community can request it (with consensus or not)
[12:50am] Philippe: sorry
[12:50am] Ziko: a reader elected wmf board member would be nice too but then we would need a larger wmf board
[12:50am] Moonriddengirl: I've lost the thread. Are we talking about a "share" button?
[12:50am] Philippe: can request it (with consensus) or not (request it)
[12:50am] Chzz: kids... I've no problem with young Wikipedians, as long as they behave in an appropriate manner
[12:50am] Chzz: problem is, they treat it like a game, not an academic institution; I want them to think of it like a library - where, yep, kids welcome, if they behave
[12:50am] Chzz: I want: kids welcome, if they behave... the kinda behaviour that is acceptable... like in a library or museum or academia - not disturbing the crusty old dudes with their heads in books
[12:50am] varnent: Chzz: I think you need to take a step back on this one
[12:50am] Philippe: Ziko, I worry about suffrage with that too.
[12:50am] Chzz: WMF however is saying "hey, come on in, run around"
[12:51am] varnent: you seem very worked up about it - and I'm not sure anyone can talk to you about this topic without being attacked - doesn't give much room for conversation
[12:51am] Ziko: i am very fond of the new feedback function. Maybe opponents have a wrong/too optimistic idea of people. most people will never edit, whatever you do. or they try and get frustrated
[12:51am] Chzz: so WMF gets more *editors* yep. Maybe more edits. GOOD edits? that's another q. more difficult. but, the 'editor retention' graphs will look pretty
[12:52am] Philippe: Chzz, again, I am not talking editor retention here. Remember, my role is to focus on READERS.
[12:52am] varnent: Chzz: a lot of people disagree with you - and this is a community project with a cool of adding more people - if you don't like that - there are a lot of other projects with more restrictions on who can edit - I suggest you consider them
[12:52am] Ziko: wasn't it polish wikipedia that made good experiences with its commentary function?
[12:52am] Chzz: sheesh
[12:52am] Philippe: Ziko, yes, I believe that they did.
[12:52am] Chzz: "other projects with more restrictions on who can edit - I suggest you consider them" -srsly?
[12:52am] Philippe: A feedback tool.
[12:52am] Chzz: so you don't want my input?
[12:52am] Chzz: well
[12:52am] varnent: Chzz: and my question was about readers' interests - I recognize a vocal minority of editors hates the idea - that's well established. Was interested in the other 99% of the community.
[12:53am] Chzz: varnent it is not 99%
[12:53am] Moonriddengirl: We've got fewer than 10 minutes left. Does anybody have any questions about reader relations or community liaisons stuff?
[12:53am] Chzz: varnent try looking at the % by acual-useful-editors
[12:53am] varnent: was talking about the readers being the 99%
[12:53am] Philippe: Chzz, well, we don't really know, do we? Because we haven't even settled on a definition of what the community is. Do we include readers in that?
[12:53am] Chzz: *actual
[12:53am] Philippe: Because obviously, I do
[12:53am] Chzz: Philippe I said 'editors'
[12:54am] varnent: Chzz: I got that - and I'm talking about the community - which includes readers
[12:54am] Philippe: Right, but varnent didn't
[12:54am] Thehelpfulone joined the chat room.
[12:54am] mabdul: the feedbacktool only add more work for the existing editors!
[12:54am] Chzz: you could e.g. attract 1000 new editors, and they'd do less than 1 x Moonriddengirl
[12:54am] varnent: Chzz: would I sacrifice 500 good editors for 1,000,000 more visitors? yes
[12:54am] varnent: lol - but that's just me
[12:54am] Chzz: that's a net loss, if Moonriddengirl is put off by all the incompetence
[12:54am] Moonriddengirl: That's kind of you, Chzz, but we need to prepare for me to get hit by a bus.
[12:54am] varnent: Chzz: I think it's presumptuous to state that out of 1000 new editors - none would be quality
[12:54am] Philippe: Bah, something just happened and blanked my screen entirely.
[12:55am] Philippe: Moonriddengirl is spending too much time with me. I worry about my "hit by a bus" plan a lot.
[12:55am] Chzz: varnent as I said: Approximately 3% of editors account for 85% of contributions
[12:55am] varnent: Chzz: and failing to attract new volunteers and readers who can become volunteers would be very short-sighted
[12:55am] Chzz: lose some of those 3%, by making pretty graphs, and it's a net -
[12:55am] Maryana: ok, guys, gotta run… to make those pretty editor retention graphs – i'm thinking glitter
[12:55am] varnent: Chzz: and I think that's evidence of a problem which recruiting more editors can help with
[12:55am] Ziko: Question: Philippe, is your department involved in the surveys we see from time to time via the sitenotice?
[12:55am] Maryana: bye!
[12:55am] Philippe: Thanks, Maryana
[12:55am] Moonriddengirl: Good night, Maryana! Or afternoon for you!
[12:55am] Maryana left the chat room.
[12:55am] Philippe: Ziko, no, we're not.
[12:55am] Philippe: That happens out of the global development team.
[12:56am] Philippe: It's been fascinating to see some of the outcomes though.
[12:56am] varnent: Chzz: that stat seems more like an argument against reaching out to more folks - not an argument to sacrifice the good of the many for the satisfaction of the few
[12:56am] Ziko: oh, i see, because they are usually editor-addressed?
[12:56am] Chzz: varnent yes, but... more *good* editors. and not losing the current good ones. It's not *just* about *more*
[12:56am] Philippe: Well, no, actually because that's where the person with expertise in doing it works
[12:56am] Moonriddengirl: We are a flexible work crew.
[12:56am] Philippe: I'm honestly not sure why she reports to Global Dev.
[12:57am] Moonriddengirl: There is some cross over in the departments.
[12:57am] Philippe: But we've done a couple of reader surveys and a couple of editor ones.
[12:57am] Philippe: Now I should say, I did have a tangental role in the Berkman-Sciences Po survey.
[12:57am] Ziko: do you have a standard distinction between reader groups? "fans", "professionals", "content complainers"....
[12:57am] Philippe: But it was tangental only.. i turned on their banner
[12:57am] varnent: Chzz: I fail to understand why a share button detracts "good" editors - I have a long list of clients that don't touch enWP because it has no share capabilities - as crazy as I may think that sounds - their perceptions are my realities
[12:57am] Moonriddengirl: If we do, Ziko, nobody's shared it with me.
[12:57am] Philippe: We don't
[12:57am] Philippe: but it would be interesting to put them in buckets.
[12:58am] varnent: Philippe: sorry for sidetracking this side piece - I think Chzz and I are pretty much argued out
[12:58am] Ziko: i would like to have one for outreach too
[12:58am] Philippe: LOL@varnent
[12:58am] Philippe: Actually, folks, I have to take off as well… i have a lawyer standing over my shoulder, which rarely means anything good
[12:58am] Chzz: varnent ok, I shall try to explain, if you'll hear me out; or maybe this is best discussed elsewhere? or maybe not discussed at all? IDK. Let me know
[12:58am] Moonriddengirl: Are you snagging the log, Philippe?
[12:58am] Philippe: I'd like to thank you all for showing up today…. and I'll get a log posted to meta
[12:58am] AlexandrDmitri: thanks for your time
[12:58am] Philippe: Yep, Thanks MRG
[12:58am] AlexandrDmitri: :waves
[12:59am] Moonriddengirl: See you tomorrow, Philippe!
[12:59am] mabdul: varnent: pleayse explain me: how do you want to b independent with a FB button qand not a a studivz button?
[12:59am] Philippe: Thank you AlexandrDmitri, Risker, Moonriddengirl, et all!