IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-01-04

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[3:03pm] StevenW Hey everyone, so we can probably get started now.
[3:03pm] StevenW If people weren't aware, this is the first office hours we've done about features in general, instead of one specific new feature.
[3:04pm] MRB[away] is now known as matthewrbowker.
[3:04pm] StevenW So we will probably just comb through each features development area broadly, or talk about any particular area people are interested in.
[3:04pm] StevenW Such as mobile, or new editor features like the FeedbackDashboard, more general stuff.
[3:04pm] werespielchqrs joined the chat room.
[3:04pm] howief Here's what I'd suggest
[3:05pm] howief We've had a bunch of deployments over the past two months
[3:05pm] howief so let's talk about the major ones (in random order) [3:05pm] MER-C joined the chat room.
[3:05pm] howief 1. AFT version 5
[3:05pm] howief 2. Feedback Dashboard Improvements
[3:05pm] howief 3. Localization
[3:05pm] howief 4. Visual editor
[3:05pm] jorm i am (barely) around, because i'm on a phone interview.
[3:05pm] howief We can always talk about other features, but those are the ones that we've recently deployed
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[3:06pm] howief How does that sound?
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[3:06pm] StevenW Hey folks
[3:06pm] StevenW we just got started :)
[3:06pm] howief ok so I'm going to assume that silence = consent :)
[3:06pm] Ziko hello
[3:06pm] juancarlos howief: Sure.
[3:07pm] howief so AFT 5
[3:07pm] werespielchqrs There's a lot of attention to those anyway, it would be nice to talk about other ideas for improving things
[3:07pm] matthewrbowker howief: Sure...
[3:07pm] howief okay, let's save some time at the end to talk about other ideas
[3:07pm] Saibo what is AFT?
[3:07pm] raindrift Saibo: Article Feedback Tool
[3:07pm] matthewrbowker Articke feedback tool
[3:07pm] Saibo would be a good start..
[3:07pm] Saibo ah
[3:07pm] matthewrbowker It's the box at the bottom of the articles... With stars
[3:07pm] Saibo the star thingy in enwp?
[3:07pm] Thogo oh yes, I'd want to have that on all larger wikis.
[3:07pm] howief so we've been working on the next version of the article feedback tool
[3:08pm] juancarlos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AFT
[3:08pm] howief (yes, it's the star thingy on enwp)
[3:08pm] DarTar AFT5: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Article_feedback/Version_5
[3:08pm] howief right now, it's a star thingy
[3:08pm] howief we're changing it to a thumb thingy
[3:08pm] howief just kidding
[3:08pm] juancarlos Facebookisation?
[3:08pm] juancarlos Oh good.
[3:08pm] DarTar FB FTW!
[3:08pm] howief haha
[3:08pm] StevenW juancarlos, you should have said who you were. I had to check your cloak. :)
[3:08pm] howief so right now, readers can rate articles in one of 4 categories
[3:09pm] Maryana thogo: propose it on de.wiki! :)
[3:09pm] Saibo I'd propose fixing bugs instead of new features
[3:09pm] juancarlos Steven, I like to keep people guessing!
[3:09pm] Thogo Maryana: I'm thinking about ways to do that, yes. It's difficult... The community, you know.
[3:09pm] werespielchqrs Have you done any stats on AFT to see if it is shifting the type of edits newbies make?
[3:09pm] juancarlos Or, perhaps, how articles are being changed overall due to it?
[3:10pm] howief we're experimenting with a few new versions of the tool to see if we can more directly engage readers in helping improve articles on wikipedia
[3:10pm] howief so instead of having users rate an article based on stars
[3:10pm] howief we'll ask them questions such as "did you find what you're looking for?"
[3:10pm] howief if the reader didn't find what they're looking for, we ask them to enter what they're looking for
[3:10pm] DarTar werespielchqrs: there's one dedicated phase of data analysis for this, see: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Article_feedback/Data_and_metrics
[3:10pm] juancarlos howief: That's a really good idea, actually.
[3:10pm] Thogo that's good. That's what marketing people recommend.
[3:10pm] DarTar I thought I had told you already a couple of times about that :p
[3:11pm] howief here's an example [3:11pm] howief http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_%28operating_system%29
[3:11pm] howief sorry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_%28operating_system%29?bucket=1
[3:11pm] howief (we're randomizing the test forms)
[3:11pm] werespielchqrs What will happen with the rating data collected so far? Is it going to be ditched?
[3:11pm] howief juancarlos: this idea was actually brought up by some folks in the editing community during a previous office hours
[3:12pm] juancarlos ah.
[3:12pm] howief there are a total of three buckets
[3:12pm] DarTar werespielchqrs: we keep collecting AFT4 data until we make a go/no-go decision about AFT5
[3:12pm] howief here are the other ones
[3:12pm] howief http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_%28operating_system%29?bucket=2
[3:12pm] howief http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_%28operating_system%29?bucket=3
[3:12pm] howief The thing they all have in common is all ask users to enter a comment, rather than simply rating via stars
[3:12pm] DarTar all historical data is going to be preserved for the purpose of analysis
[3:13pm] howief so the focus is on getting readers to help build the encyclopedia
[3:13pm] DarTar we have temporary dumps at http://dumps.wikimedia.org/other/articlefeedback/
[3:13pm] DarTar but we'll be moving to a separate hosting solution
[3:13pm] howief previously, the focus was on evaluating quality
[3:13pm] alolita1 dartar: thanks for the data url
[3:13pm] howief we can still have evaluations of quality (e.g., % of readers who found what they're looking for)
[3:13pm] howief but the feature is geared towards getting text input from readers
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[3:14pm] howief we're currently testing the 3 different versions
[3:14pm] tommorris joined the chat room.
[3:14pm] tommorris hey all
[3:14pm] StevenW Hi tom
[3:14pm] Thogo oh wow, it's localized in the preference language even. Good job.
[3:14pm] DarTar the real time data we're collecting with AFT5 is here: http://toolserver.org/~dartar/aft5/stream/
[3:14pm] StevenW we're just talking about AFTv5 now
[3:14pm] StevenW and should be on other topics later
[3:14pm] tommorris cool
[3:14pm] howief and oliver keyes and dario are working with the community to evaluate each of the comment streams to figure out which one yields the highest quality comments
[3:14pm] StevenW if you have questions etc speak up or PM me
[3:15pm] tashir there have been lots of office hours on AFT and Feedback Dashboard.... Maybe brevity would be good on those. I want to hear about the visual editor!
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[3:15pm] howief tashir: sure
[3:15pm] howief so if folks are interested in getting involved in AFT 5 development
[3:15pm] StevenW https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:VisualEditorSandbox
[3:15pm] StevenW Visual editor test ^
[3:15pm] howief please let me know or contact oliver at okeyes at wikimedia dot org
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[3:16pm] howief we'll also figure out how to surface these comments to the editing community
[3:16pm] howief right now, they're just going into the dumps that DarTar just provided links to
[3:16pm] howief but eventually, we'll want these comments to be available for all to see
[3:16pm] DarTar if anybody wants to help with hand-coding of AFT5 feedback, instructions are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EpochFail/FES_intro
[3:17pm] Saibo StevenW: how does it prevent users from e.g. replacing definition lists (;  : ) with bold and indention my space bar? ;)
[3:17pm] Saibo *by space bar
[3:17pm] howief we're hoping to have the new version of the feedback form in production by late Jan/early Feb
[3:18pm] howief that's the update on AFT
[3:18pm] howief we also have weekly office hours on the feature, so if people are interested, please drop by
[3:18pm] howief let's move on to visual editor
[3:18pm] Saibo StevenW: my fear with WYSIWYG editors is that users do not use the semantically correct markup but just those markup that it looks good on their screen
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[3:18pm] tommorris Yes, this.
[3:18pm] Saibo if there are measures to prevent this.. fine
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[3:19pm] werespielchqrs With the visual editor will we lose any existing functionality?
[3:19pm] alolita so let's talk about the visual editor
[3:19pm] tommorris with WikiText, What You See Is What You Mean
[3:19pm] raindrift Saibo: there likely will be features to prevent this. At the moment, the focus is on getting an editor that works.
[3:19pm] alolita werespielchqrs: no we don't plan to
[3:19pm] StevenW Actually, that's a great piece of feedback to bring up on the mediawiki.org feedback page for that Saibo, as I am not sure anyone has said it previously
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[3:19pm] StevenW https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Visual_editor/Feedback
[3:20pm] Steven_Zhang there will be alternatives tho, right?
[3:20pm] juancarlos After getting the link from Steven, I see a couple strange things with the visual editor. One cannot edit the wikitext even while viewing it side-by-side?
[3:20pm] StevenW Yet.
[3:20pm] Steven_Zhang like, newbies can use visual editor, old school people can use standard, right?
[3:20pm] alolita this is the feedback page where you can leave your comments or problems you are seeing
[3:20pm] raindrift werespielchqrs: part of what makes the VE project so difficult is the requirement that you be able to switch from visual to wikitext editing seamlessly.
[3:20pm] DarTar Steven_Zhang: correct
[3:20pm] Steven_Zhang GOOD.
[3:20pm] alolita juancarlos: right - the visual editor is not currently enabled to do a round trip on editing
[3:21pm] StevenW There is an explanation of all the limitations of the test and where its headed in the blog post too http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/12/13/help-test-the-first-visual-editor-developer-prototype/
[3:21pm] tommorris are there any plans for the new parser to be made available as a standalone module. I can think of a lot of dark sexy evil things I'd like to do with a proper MediaWiki parser ;-)
[3:21pm] werespielchqrs Has the visual editor been tested on large pages and from very slow connections?
[3:21pm] raindrift tommorris: absolutely.
[3:21pm] alolita tommorris: i agree - the parser with an API can do a lot
[3:21pm] tashir hmm, I don't see <ref>s or [citation needed] in the Wikitext Preview View split screen
[3:22pm] raindrift tashir: it's not there yet.
[3:22pm] tashir ok
[3:22pm] gmaxwell I observed some crazy inconsistent behavior with the visual editor. e.g. typing wikitext markup into the visual editing mode displayed as text, but on reload became markup.
[3:22pm] alolita werespielchqrs: gwicke has been testing conversion of the barack obama page
[3:22pm] Thogo [citation needed] is enwiki specific anyway...
[3:22pm] gmaxwell which made it possible to create markup errors that were not immediately obvious.
[3:22pm] alolita parsing of wikitext
[3:22pm] • tommorris
thinks having libraries for Ruby/Python/Perl/Java/etc. that lets people use the MediaWiki API and get back a DOM tree would enable all sorts of crazy reuse
[3:23pm] tommorris or an abstract syntax tree
[3:23pm] juancarlos Thogo: they meant that refs are showing up on the visual rendering and not on the wikitext :)
[3:23pm] juancarlos https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:VisualEditorSandbox
[3:23pm] alolita gmaxwell: can you please file a bug on this behavior that you're seeing
[3:23pm] DarTar eventually all templates and different types of complex markup that cannot be easily supported via the UI will be editable as blocks, which I think is pretty awesome
[3:23pm] raindrift tommorris: i believe those APIs (for converting to WikiDOM) will be required to make the visual editor work at all, so they should be available for external use as well.
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[3:23pm] werespielchqrs Good, but has gwicke done a test using the sort of connection speed millions of peeps in the 3rd world have?
[3:23pm] StevenW what exactly does editable as blocks mean?
[3:24pm] StevenW In a separate window?
[3:24pm] StevenW By itself?
[3:24pm] alolita werespielchqrs: not yet
[3:24pm] • Steven_Zhang
waves to werespielchqrs
[3:24pm] DarTar there will be a pop up or something to edit these bits of markup
[3:24pm] DarTar from the visual editor itself
[3:24pm] StevenW Thanks :)
[3:26pm] tashir ohmygosh is there no "save" button? It's all instant change? Is this reflected as real time edits on everyone else's screen?
[3:26pm] raindrift tashir: right now saving doesn't work
[3:26pm] alolita tashir: that is work in progress
[3:26pm] tashir ohhh
[3:27pm] tommorris am I right in thinking that the Etherpad style changelog that's going on internally means that we might get more intelligent merging and thus less edit conflicts? ;-)
[3:27pm] Ziko ok
[3:27pm] raindrift tashir: we've talked about concurrent editing (so everyone who's editing can see changes real-time) and it's designed to support that on the backend someday, but there are some hard problems to solve if that's ever to be implemented, both technical and social/cultural.
[3:27pm] alolita handling all templating is a very complex problem
[3:27pm] werespielchqrs Waves to Steven Re to alolita Can you make sure that is in the test plan? It is very easy for programmers to code for the sort of kit they have and the speeds they can get in California, but we need to remeber that much of the world has orders of magnitude slower connections
[3:28pm] alolita werespielchqrs: yup will do
[3:28pm] Ziko but the intention is that later someone makes his changes, and then presses on "save"? i would also like to see a device to save your changes first for yourself
[3:28pm] StevenW I think that's a good opportunity for alolita or howie to talk about what our development cycle actually is
[3:28pm] Thogo raindrift, I'd want to see how this live editing and revision histories come together.
[3:28pm] tashir it would be better if edit wars could be constrained to people typing over each other in real time, without any obvious record in the edit history. Otherwise admins are likely to get involved and that never ends well
[3:29pm] tashir :-)
[3:29pm] raindrift Thogo: that is one of the hard problems.  :)
[3:29pm] Thogo ^^
[3:29pm] Saibo uh.. em
[3:29pm] Saibo editwars which are not visible?
[3:29pm] Saibo ouch
[3:29pm] alolita the development of the visual editor is currently focused on evaluation of best of breed web editors and implementation of the client
[3:29pm] Ziko tashir: interesting idea
[3:29pm] tashir out of sight out of mind, that's what I say
[3:30pm] howief re: the development question, every project is a little different, but there are some things that we try to keep consistent
[3:30pm] tommorris any response to my question?
[3:30pm] howief for example, the requirements gathering for visual editor is going be different than for AFT
[3:30pm] Steven_Zhang WOAH
[3:30pm] raindrift tashir, Thogo, Saibo: anyway, concurrent editing isn't immediately on the horizon. First, we'll need a functional visual editor. Concurrent editing would change a lot, and it's not all necessarily good.
[3:30pm] Steven_Zhang the visual editor is weird
[3:30pm] Thogo of course
[3:30pm] Steven_Zhang i clicked the article
[3:31pm] Steven_Zhang and deleted stuff
[3:31pm] Steven_Zhang and it just disappeared
[3:31pm] Steven_Zhang no edit button or anything
[3:31pm] StevenW It's just in the test version
[3:31pm] howief but each feature we release goes through a testing phase where we look at the the behavior of the feature across different browser configurations
[3:31pm] juancarlos Steven_Zhang: yes yes, here's a lollipop
[3:31pm] werespielchqrs Obama's page is popular active and at 202k very long. But http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Advanced_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_2nd_edition_monsters is almost twice as long, you might want to swap testpages.
[3:31pm] alolita Steven_Zhang: it is sandboxed
[3:31pm] howief we also stress test the features and try to break them
[3:31pm] raindrift Steven_Zhang: there will be an edit button. Editing and reading mode will look very similar, but will in fact be different.
[3:31pm] howief werespielchqrs: thanks for forwarding
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[3:32pm] Steven_Zhang OK, good.
[3:32pm] Steven_Zhang cos people vandalise enough as it is
[3:32pm] Steven_Zhang every article being live would cause issues :P
[3:32pm] • StevenW
watches everyone in the room at WMF going nuts over how long the D&D article WSC linked to is
[3:32pm] alolita Steven_Zhang: :-)
[3:33pm] • Steven_Zhang
whacks Template:Toolong onto that
[3:33pm] Steven_Zhang oh
[3:33pm] tommorris StevenW: it's a WikiGroaner in and of itself
[3:33pm] Steven_Zhang its already there
[3:33pm] Dragonfly6-7 so break it in half
[3:33pm] Steven_Zhang that is silly
[3:34pm] Dragonfly6-7 A-G, H-Z
[3:34pm] Dragonfly6-7 or whatever
[3:34pm] Steven_Zhang split it up perhaps WSC
[3:34pm] howief yeah that article is crazy!
[3:34pm] werespielchqrs Someone has done a cleanup at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:LongPages nothing is over 400k and no Tamil articles.
[3:34pm] howief so going back to visual editor
[3:34pm] howief one area i know the team would like help with is identifying use cases
[3:35pm] howief e.g., what types of features should this editor support?
[3:35pm] tommorris anyway, I hate to badger, but I think the question I asked was quite interesting, any chance of a response?
[3:35pm] tommorris am I right in thinking that the Etherpad style changelog that's going on internally means that we might get more intelligent merging and thus less edit conflicts? ;-)
[3:35pm] juancarlos external link additions aren't there yet ;-)
[3:35pm] raindrift tommorris: absolutely.
[3:35pm] alolita howief: thanks for bring this up - we're looking for use cases of complex templates; complex pages; user interface feedback
[3:35pm] Steven_Zhang 400k is still too long.
[3:35pm] juancarlos howief: adding, resizing pictures?
[3:36pm] howief juancarlos: thanks
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[3:36pm] • Steven_Zhang
wonders why werespielchqrs is never on IRC :(
[3:36pm] tashir well for use cases, if it can't handle most everything, converting to it would be painful
[3:36pm] raindrift tommorris: that's one of the good points for concurrent editing. it'd also be really useful for teaching people style, policy, etc. however, it's hard to implement well from a tech standpoint, and the way edit history is maintained would have to change. so, those are the hard bits.
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[3:36pm] howief tashir: we need input on what "everything" means
[3:36pm] juancarlos tashir: There are some benefits, like resizing a picture with the visual editor
[3:36pm] juancarlos you can't do that with wikitext and see how it looks :)
[3:36pm] tommorris its not so much the concurrent editing, it's the fact that visual editor users could send the edit log along with their edit so that a more intelligent diff algorithm could better resolve conflicts
[3:37pm] juancarlos sans preview, I suppose
[3:37pm] Saibo juancarlos: urgs - hopefully not the "px" style resize...

[3:37pm] tashir well, most of the existing project templates, probably
s and <spans> and images and ... collapse script, and and and

[3:37pm] howief yes, there are literally thousands of use cases, and it's tough for our small development team to come up with each one
[3:37pm] Saibo ... that is one thing I mean with semantically correct....
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[3:37pm] raindrift tommorris: oh, i see what you mean. you're talking about using the undo history for more intelligent versioning. totally.
[3:37pm] howief so it would really help if folks that are using our current editor can help us enumerate use cases so we can build list
[3:37pm] werespielchqrs Are we testing visual editor with the various tools, hotcat catalot etc etc
[3:37pm] alolita tommorris: neilk has been looking at the etherpad source and the visual editor team is not convinced that it is the best way to merge edits (etherpad lite is another codebase we're looking at)
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[3:39pm] Thogo do you plan to have a tool that shows the user immediately (live) how a transcluded template would look like in the article? That would be *really* great to have.
[3:39pm] alolita thogo: not yet :-)
[3:39pm] Thogo with the really big templates with tons of parser functions it will eat up a lot of calculation time, though...
[3:39pm] Saibo Thogo: isn't that just the usual preview feature?
[3:40pm] Thogo Saibo: but you have to click on preview every time...
[3:40pm] Saibo yes, but you mean this functionality?
[3:40pm] Thogo sort of
[3:40pm] Saibo shouldn't be that hard.. hm?
[3:40pm] Thogo I hope so. :)
[3:40pm] Saibo just fire a new preview request after each pause in key strokes for more than 500 ms
[3:41pm] Saibo or something.. like it is done in various gadgets at Commons
[3:41pm] Thogo well, we don't want to programme the thing here and now I guess. XD
[3:41pm] Saibo that was the description of what happens ;) a refresh of the preview when you stop to type :D
[3:42pm] werespielchqrs Is there a way to handle edit conflicts differently, offer an auto merge with your changes and the other persons so you an decide if yours still make sense? Lots of edit conflicts come from two people trying to add commenmts on a talkpage and it should be possible to semi automate fixing that
[3:42pm] StevenW we have about 20 minutes to go, so maybe we should hit the other items to talk about?
[3:42pm] raindrift Saibo: re: template transclusion, I know this is something the team has been discussing, and I'm sure they'll do it if there's a way to make it perform well.
[3:42pm] Steven_Zhang edit conflicts suck.
[3:42pm] Steven_Zhang especially on iphones
[3:42pm] Thogo yes, localization sounds like an intresting topic...
[3:42pm] tommorris werespielchqrs: there's LiquidThreads ;-)
[3:42pm] howief let's talk about Feedback Dashboard really quickly [3:42pm] howief http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:FeedbackDashboard
[3:42pm] tashir hmm, the Wikia visual editor says "Source mode required / Rich text editing has been disabled because the page contains complex code." whenever you try to edit something with a template on it. Is that reasonable? Is letting people visual-edit non-intro sections on complex articles a good compromise or stepping-stone before the full everything is implemented?
[3:43pm] howief so we recently launched a small tool to get real-time feedback from new editors
[3:43pm] howief once a new editor attempts to edit, whether they complete the edit or not, they get a small link in the upper left hand corner that says "Feedback about editing"
[3:43pm] werespielchqrs to Tom Morris OK I can live with edit conflicts if the alternative is liquid threads
[3:43pm] howief when they click, they get a little input bubble that looks like this [3:43pm] howief http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/File:MoodBar_Closeup.jpg
[3:43pm] Saibo werespielchqrs: lol
[3:44pm] MER-C that's exactly what I was thinking
[3:44pm] howief we've been collecting a lot of feedback from these new editors on the Feedback Dashboard page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:FeedbackDashboard
[3:44pm] tommorris werespielchqrs: look at Wikinews - we use it for the Comments namespace
[3:44pm] howief this page gives a real-time feed of comments being left by new editors
[3:44pm] Eloquence tashir, no, that's not reasonable -- the wikia editor architecture is very fragile. that's why we're using a completely different architecture (using a document object model representation of wikitext in memory) for the new visual editor, which allows us to mitigate round-trip problems that force wikia to disable the editor in many circumstances
[3:44pm] tommorris werespielchqrs: the actual part where we do any important discussions, it is kept well away from ;-)
[3:44pm] howief Experienced editors can also respond to these comments from new users directly on the Feedback Dashboard
[3:44pm] Steven_Zhang one other thing
[3:45pm] Steven_Zhang is the mobile wikipedia going to be improved?
[3:45pm] Steven_Zhang its really bad right now.
[3:45pm] Eloquence tfinc :)
[3:45pm] alolita tashir: the team has been looking at a hybrid approach and how that would work ; long-term it is a change in user experience
[3:45pm] howief StevenW: and Maryana P. have been coordinating a group of experienced editors to respond to this feedback
[3:45pm] tommorris that's one thing FeedbackDashboard needs is some community consensus on when admins should hide FeedbackDashboard comments
[3:45pm] StevenW Or least say they'd like to. So far very little response is being provided...
[3:45pm] tfinc Steven_Zhang: lets chat over in the mobile channel since this talk is focused on features works
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[3:46pm] Thogo tommorris, can't you just use the same rules as for edits?
[3:46pm] howief we just launched a feature these newbies can "mark as helpful"
[3:46pm] Steven_Zhang theres a mobile channel?
[3:46pm] StevenW #wikimedia-mobile
[3:46pm] howief this way, we can measure how helpful these responses are to newbies
[3:46pm] tommorris Thogo: yeah, might be an idea if we had a list on the Response Team page though
[3:47pm] tfinc Steven_Zhang: yup. one of the many here http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/Channels
[3:47pm] howief tommorris: that sounds like a good idea
[3:47pm] tommorris oh wait, "Please do not hide things that are not blatantly abusive" is on there
[3:47pm] tommorris that wasn't there last time I looked ;-)
[3:47pm] howief right now the software enables admins to hide, but it's up to admins to decide how to use it
[3:47pm] StevenW yep
[3:47pm] howief we're hoping that this response system will encourage these newbies to edit more
[3:48pm] Thehelpfulone okay, I just noticed the hide feature and was wondering if it had been enabled for admins
[3:48pm] Thogo tommorris: hm, maybe some general policy amendment of the suppress policy could help.
[3:48pm] Steven_Zhang aw nuts
[3:48pm] howief DarTar: will be working on analysis to let us know whether this is actually the case
[3:48pm] tommorris how long until there's data on effectiveness of Moodbar/FeedbackDashboard
[3:48pm] Mono hey, what's happened?
[3:48pm] Thehelpfulone howief: when it's hidden, what log does it go to?
[3:48pm] Thehelpfulone deletion?
[3:48pm] RoanKattouw alolita, howief: Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to invite VE questions when no VE devs were around :) . Should we have a separate office hours for VE maybe, when Trevor is back?
[3:48pm] Mono StevenW: what's happened?
[3:48pm] howief Thehelpfulone: i don't think it's the deletion log -- these are just hidden from view for non-admins
[3:48pm] StevenW Mono: we've just been talking features development
[3:48pm] DarTar tommorris: we've started studying a number of metrics on posts/responses and notifications, let me get you the links
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[3:49pm] franny left the chat room. ("␛")
[3:49pm] alolita RoanKattouw: Yup - we can focus on VE questions once the team is back
[3:49pm] Mono StevenW: what features, specifically?
[3:49pm] StevenW AFT, Visual Editor, Feedback Dashboard, and we'll end with localizations
[3:49pm] DarTar http://toolserver.org/~dartar/moodbar/
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[3:49pm] DarTar http://toolserver.org/~dartar/fd/
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[3:49pm] DarTar http://toolserver.org/~dartar/fd_notify/
[3:49pm] DarTar the third one is still in progress
[3:49pm] Thehelpfulone howief: so there's no log of if I've hidden feedback or not?
[3:50pm] howief another thing to note about Feedback Dashboard -- when experienced editors respond to a newbie comment, the newbie gets a nice non-robo email
[3:50pm] werespielchqrs I thought we were ending with "other ideas"
[3:50pm] howief Thehelpfulone: I'm actually not sure -- let me check with rob and benny, the developers on this feature
[3:50pm] Thehelpfulone thanks
[3:50pm] howief i'll get back to you
[3:50pm] DarTar tommorris: we basically want to know how effective different mechanisms are to engage with moodbar posters whose posts are responded in a timely way
[3:51pm] DarTar as well as a/b testing email notifications
[3:51pm] dungodung is now known as dungodung|away.
[3:51pm] howief should we move on to localization?
[3:51pm] Mono What are some of the projects planned for the more distant future?
[3:52pm] howief Mono: for editor engagement, there are number on the horizon, though the exact schedule hasn't been nailed down
[3:52pm] Thogo yes, localization. Can you explain what y'all did there?
[3:52pm] Thogo would be interesting. :)
[3:52pm] Mono howief: what's on the table? :)
[3:52pm] howief some things that are under consideration are New Page Patrol/Article Creation, Notifications, Messaging, and Profile
[3:53pm] howief each of these are pretty complex projects and we have a pretty small team of developers
[3:53pm] howief so we need to be diligent about what we work on
[3:53pm] howief let's cover localization first and then come back to the upcoming projects
[3:53pm] Mono OK :)
[3:53pm] werespielchqrs Profile = cross wiki userpage and watchlists?
[3:54pm] alolita Thogo: in I18n / l10n - we have been adding features to handle WebFonts, Translation (translate), Narayam
[3:54pm] howief werespielchqrs: yes, that would be a feature under Profile
[3:54pm] Thogo uhm... Narayam?
[3:54pm] alolita http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Narayam
[3:54pm] werespielchqrs to Howie. Good those would be really useful developments
[3:55pm] alolita Narayam handles various input methods for languages (non-Roman)
[3:55pm] Saibo Thogo: that thing ("Eingabemethode") which was switched on although it is useless for you ;)
[3:55pm] Thogo can that also be used for wikis where different scripts are used for the same language?
[3:55pm] Thogo like Inuktitut
[3:55pm] alolita Thogo: yes -
[3:55pm] Thogo great! :)
[3:56pm] alolita Thogo: right now we're building out language support for the Indic family of languages
[3:56pm] Thogo don't forget the Dravidic languages ^^ They have their own script, too.
[3:56pm] Thogo if you are in India, I mean.
[3:57pm] alolita yes (we are planning to support Tamil and Malayalam) have support for Kannada and Telegu
[3:57pm] Thogo that's very nice to hear.
[3:58pm] alolita Thogo: we need more freely licensed high quality fonts for extending language support
[3:58pm] Ziko great
[3:58pm] Thogo hm... nobody in India cares to make them?
[3:59pm] werespielchqrs Are we investing in creating such fonts?
[3:59pm] Thogo would not be a bad idea, I'd say.
[3:59pm] alolita Thogo: very hard to find fontographers who can create high quality fonts
[3:59pm] alolita werespielchqrs: yes we plan to :-)
[4:00pm] werespielchqrs Great, that would be something to talk about in the next fundraiser
[4:00pm] StevenW We should wrap up in a minute or two.
[4:00pm] Mono What's the importance of supporting every one of these languages?
[4:00pm] Thogo these are languages with millions of people... It's good to reach them. ;)
[4:00pm] werespielchqrs To Mono If people speak them we should support them
[4:00pm] alolita werespielchqrs: yes i agree
[4:01pm] alolita Mono: we're supporting the major languages (spoken and used by millions of people) :-)
[4:01pm] alolita so we've got a long way to go
[4:01pm] Saibo alolita: since you all are only mentioning the positives: you did switch it on for languages like German which really don't need it. That is a step backwards compared to before. More UI clutter, more script loading and running.
[4:01pm] Dragonfly6-7 bye for now
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[4:01pm] DarTar bye folks
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[4:02pm] howief Mono: i can stick around for another few minutes if you want to talk about upcoming projects
[4:02pm] raindrift Thanks, everyone. Bye!
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[4:02pm] StevenW Thanks for chatting everyone.
[4:02pm] alolita saibo: understood; we plan to make these features available as default to opt-in