IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-03-22

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[17:51] * Ironholds changes topic to 'office hours: New Page Triage ( Page Triage) 22 March 2012 (TODAY), 18:00 UTC | | Publically logged during office hours.'
[17:59] * TBloemink (~TBloemink@wikimedia/tbloemink) has joined #wikimedia-office
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[18:03] <Thehelpfulone> voice the cabal Ironholds :)
[18:03] <Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: yeeeth, master
[18:03] -> *chanserv* op #wikimedia-office Ironholds
[18:03] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Ironholds
[18:03] * Ironholds sets mode: +v jorm
[18:04] * Fluff|ping (~Fluffernu@wikipedia/Fluffernutter) has joined #wikimedia-office
[18:05] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Thehelpfulone
[18:05] <@Ironholds> how many people do we have here for the session, anyhoo?
[18:05] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone, I assume? ;p
[18:05] * Rjd0060 (~Rjd0060@wikimedia/Rjd0060) has joined #wikimedia-office
[18:05] * Fluff|ping is lurking, but unlikely to participate substantively
[18:05] <+Thehelpfulone> :O
[18:05] <Theo10011> You said the cabal?
[18:05] <+Thehelpfulone> you could assume correctly Ironholds
[18:05] * ChanServ sets mode: -v Thehelpfulone
[18:06] <Thehelpfulone> Theo10011: some of the members must be kept a secret, for the good of the cabal
[18:06] <@Ironholds> Theo10011: cabal?
[18:06] <Theo10011> heh
[18:06] <Theo10011> TINC
[18:07] * +jorm is here.
[18:07] <@Ironholds> jorm: you don't count. How's Herself doing, btw?
[18:08] <+jorm> as good as can be expected. she had surgery yesterday and that went well.
[18:08] * howief (~howiefung@ has joined #wikimedia-office
[18:08] * Alpha_Quadrant (~opera@wikipedia/Alpha-Quadrant) has joined #wikimedia-office
[18:08] <@Ironholds> well, good luck to her :)
[18:08] <@Ironholds> ahoy, howief, Alpha_Quadrant
[18:08] <howief> hello!
[18:08] <Alpha_Quadrant> hello
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[18:11] * freakofmimsy (~bhati@wikimedia/Sir-Nicholas-de-Mimsy-Porpington) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[18:11] <@Ironholds> we're just waiting on Fabrice, I think :)
[18:12] <Theo10011> Who is Fabrice BTW?
[18:12] <@Ironholds> Theo10011: Fabrice: Fabrice Florin
[18:13] <@Ironholds> he's the Product Manager for new page triage
[18:13] <Theo10011> Oh.
[18:13] <Theo10011> Has he had an office hour before?
[18:13] <@Ironholds> indeed, he's had twelve :)
[18:13] <Theo10011> Don't recall ever talking.
[18:13] <Theo10011> oh
[18:13] <Theo10011> Sorry.
[18:13] <@Ironholds> I worked out recently that we've held as many sessions in 3 months as sue has in, like, a year
[18:13] <@Ironholds> heh, that's okay. They've all been for AFT, which is a very specific project
[18:14] <@Ironholds> but he's very approachable on his talkpage at User:fabriceflorin if you have questions
[18:14] <@Ironholds> anyway! It looks like he's going to be delayed, so we should get started
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[18:14] <Alpha_Quadrant> Ironholds: right now, Special:NewPages brings up a list if newly created file description pages that don't have files
[18:14] <@Ironholds> is everyone aware of what New Page Triage is/does, or would a brief explanation help? :)
[18:14] <Alpha_Quadrant> if this is replaced, will this still occur?
[18:14] <@Ironholds> jorm, your opinion here? :)
[18:15] * Jan_eissfeldt is now known as Jan_telco
[18:15] <Alpha_Quadrant> usually these pages need to be deleted under F2
[18:15] <+jorm> are you asking "will newly created file descriptiosn that don't have files" still occur? the answer is probably.
[18:15] <+jorm> if you're asking if we can show them, i don't see why not.
[18:16] <Alpha_Quadrant> unless they were created because of a DYK or FP on commons
[18:16] <Alpha_Quadrant> ok, so the new system will still generate this list
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[18:18] <@Ironholds> fabriceflorin!
[18:18] <fabriceflorin> Hi Ironholds. Sorry to be late ...
[18:19] <@Ironholds> that's okay :) We're just getting started
[18:19] <@Ironholds> we have Alpha_Quadrant, Thehelpfulone and Fluff|ping so far. Is anyone else quietly waiting in the wings, community-wise? :)
[18:19] <fabriceflorin> Oh good. What's on the agenda today?
[18:19] <Theo10011> hi fabriceflorin
[18:19] <fabriceflorin> Hello Alpha_Quadrant, thank you so much for your thoughtful contributions to the Article Feedback experiment.
[18:20] <Alpha_Quadrant> hello
[18:20] <fabriceflorin> Hello Theo10011, nice to meet you!
[18:20] <Theo10011> Nice to meet you too. :)
[18:20] <@Ironholds> fabriceflorin: mostly it's just a general chat :)
[18:20] <Alpha_Quadrant> I think Ironholds is just a little excited about this new NPP tool
[18:20] * ChanServ sets mode: +v fabriceflorin
[18:20] <+fabriceflorin> And many thanks to Thehelpfulone for being, um, so helpful!
[18:20] <@Ironholds> Alpha_Quadrant: I've been working on getting elements of it released since December. You betcha.
[18:20] <Theo10011> He always is.
[18:20] * Andre_Engels (~chatzilla@wikimedia/andre-engels) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[18:20] <@Ironholds> plus, as the staffers never cease reminding me
[18:20] <+fabriceflorin> Hehe Alpha_Quadrant ;o)
[18:21] <@Ironholds> I was the top patroller in 2010
[18:21] <@Ironholds> so I have a vested interest in making it awesome :P
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[18:23] <Alpha_Quadrant> Ironholds: so, when is this new tool coming out
[18:24] <@Ironholds> Alpha_Quadrant: the first iteration, we have a two-month development cycle
[18:24] <@Ironholds> and at the end of that we want to get out all the things listed at
[18:24] * Alpha_Quadrant looks
[18:25] <@Ironholds> Theo10011, you want to get involved in this? :)
[18:25] <Theo10011> what?
[18:25] <Thehelpfulone> fabriceflorin: you're welcome :)
[18:25] <Theo10011> Sorry, I was in the middle of dinner.
[18:25] <@Ironholds> ahh, don't disrupt noms on our part!
[18:26] <Theo10011> Thanks. be back in a bit.
[18:26] <@Ironholds> so, the core element is going to be the "list view", which will replace what we think of as Special:NewPages
[18:26] <@Ironholds> and this will be a much nicer design, for one thing, but will also contain more filtering options and more data
[18:26] <@Ironholds> there's a mockup at for example :)
[18:27] <@Ironholds> As you can see it tells us stuff like who patrolled articles (when they have been patrolled), how many edits there have been, so on
[18:27] <@Ironholds> there is a lot of other data it will eventually show, they just haven't made it into the mockup yet :)
[18:27] <+fabriceflorin> Keep in mind this is a preliminary mockup, and things are likely to change based on feedback we get when the tool is ready to test.
[18:27] * TBloemink (~TBloemink@wikimedia/tbloemink) has left #wikimedia-office ("Leaving")
[18:28] <Prodego> oh that's ugly
[18:28] <+fabriceflorin> Our hope is to have a first, very rough prototype to look at in the first week of April, if all goes well.
[18:28] <@Ironholds> Prodego: as said, very preliminary :)
[18:28] <@Ironholds> and yes, this is an important element to bring up
[18:28] <@Ironholds> usually when we develop a prototype it goes to some special, temporary wiki
[18:28] <@Ironholds> in this case, we'll be deploying it on enwiki at, say, Special:NewNewPages if we're feeling twee :)
[18:28] <@Ironholds> so you'll be able to play around with it and tell us "it does X for this bit, but I actually do Y there"
[18:29] <Prodego> layout looks reasonable though
[18:29] <+fabriceflorin> Thanks, Prodego. Glad this first stab generally works for you.
[18:29] <@Ironholds> Prodego: if you take a look at the full features list at - is there anything that stands out?
[18:29] * BakkertjeWouter (57d3d1f2@wikipedia/BakkertjeWouter) has joined #wikimedia-office
[18:29] <@Ironholds> or anything not there that would be useful?
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[18:30] <+fabriceflorin> The idea is to surface all the key data that would make a patroller's life easier.
[18:30] <FooBarMartijn> Is there something in the works yet that when someone clicks Triage, it disappears from the list, or is marked as getting triaged yet - to avoid duplicate effort?
[18:30] <Prodego> other than the misuse of the word triage? :)
[18:30] <@Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: are we talking a live thing, rather than an "upon refresh, it disappears.."?
[18:31] <FooBarMartijn> well, obviously the first would be preferable, the second being fallback acceptable, and nothing being 'oh dear'
[18:31] <@Ironholds> the second is a definite, it's how things work at the moment
[18:31] <@Ironholds> the first - jorm or fabriceflorin, you may know?
[18:31] <@Ironholds> if not, I shall add it to my "list of things to ask Ian" :)
[18:32] <+jorm> things should be as live as possible.
[18:32] <+fabriceflorin> FooBarMartinj: we are experimenting with different ways to 'Mark as Triaged" and make the item disappear from the list, and put it in a separate queue.
[18:32] <howief> the dev team is looking into surfacing the fact that someone else is working on an article
[18:32] <@Ironholds> indeed, that's a given
[18:32] <howief> the idea is to avoid conflicts and duplication of effort
[18:32] <@Ironholds> so if someone else is working on an article, there will be an indicator that they are doing so (to avoid duplocation)
[18:33] <@Ironholds> which may preclude needing live updates for triage/not triage
[18:33] <@Ironholds> if I get a notice saying "Y is working on this!", I know to not bother, same as if I got a notice to say "Y has patrolled/triaged this!"
[18:34] <@Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: does that make sense?
[18:34] <FooBarMartijn> sure does
[18:34] <Prodego> Ironholds: just don't forget to specify something about how long
[18:35] <FooBarMartijn> there are obviously implentation details, but nothing that can't be resolved, I suppose
[18:35] <@Ironholds> Prodego: as in, how long they have spent working on it?
[18:35] <FooBarMartijn> that being the most obvious implementation detail ;)
[18:35] <@Ironholds> so obviously we don't want someone accidentally leaving the window open and having the article just sit there :P
[18:35] <Prodego> Ironholds: either by showing it, or by not letting people hold something for 72 hours
[18:35] <@Ironholds> I assume there will be some sort of "time out", but what that time is we haven't settled on
[18:35] <Prodego> so clicking once then leaving shouldn't still be showing everyone else you are working on i
[18:36] <@Ironholds> it shouldn't, no :)
[18:37] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone, you've been remarkably silent :P
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[18:38] <Thehelpfulone> oh I drifted off to do some wiki stuff
[18:38] <Thehelpfulone> yes my apologies :P
[18:39] <Thehelpfulone> so when's the beta test Ironholds?
[18:39] <FooBarMartijn> wait, we're not doing wikistuff here?
[18:39] <Thehelpfulone> is it on wmflabs at the moment?
[18:39] <Thehelpfulone> FooBarMartijn: on-wiki ;)
[18:39] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: it'll be deployed on enwiki, hopefully in early-to-mid April :)
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[18:40] <@Ironholds> as far as I know there is no labs instance; basically the plan is as soon as we have something, we put it somewhere you can easily see it
[18:40] <Thehelpfulone> okay
[18:40] <@Ironholds> because otherwise we end up sticking it on this obscure wiki you need to create a new account to use, and ugh.
[18:40] <@Ironholds> but it will run in parallel to the old software
[18:41] <@Ironholds> so you'll have the existing interface at Special:NewPages, and the new one at Special:NewNewPages or NewPages2 or whatever so you can play around with it, get used to it, but not have to rely on it if bits suck
[18:41] <Thehelpfulone> yep
[18:41] <Thehelpfulone> is there an auto-refresh feature Ironholds?
[18:42] <Thehelpfulone> or like twitter has "x tweets since you last loaded..."
[18:42] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: I genuinely do not know! I know there is a sort of seamless, twitter-style panning down feature
[18:42] <FooBarMartijn> some people might disagree, but I really like the idea of abusing as a testbed wiki with parallel features
[18:42] <@Ironholds> but I don't know if it works in the other direction as well
[18:42] <@Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: I totally agree. A lot of the time it isn't, technically-speaking, going to be feasible
[18:42] <@Ironholds> but this is one place where it is (Special:NewPages isn't complicated, it's just a MySQL feed with extra trimmings) and so we should play around with the idea of bringing it closer to home, as it were
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[18:43] <@Ironholds> plus, to be blunt, we use enwiki as a testbed all the time, we just call it "deployment" :P
[18:43] <FooBarMartijn> :D
[18:43] <@Ironholds> jorm, you know the answer to "is there an auto-refresh?"
[18:43] <+jorm> the answer is "not in the initial version"
[18:44] <Thehelpfulone> a feature request then ;)
[18:44] <FooBarMartijn> I'm not sure actually Thehelpfulone
[18:44] <@Ironholds> jorm: cool :)
[18:44] <@Ironholds> one worry I would have is a psychological one
[18:44] <@Ironholds> if I see "90 new pages since you last did some work!" I get pressured
[18:44] <FooBarMartijn> how many new pages per minute are we looking at? Is it really preferable to have those scrolling across your screen while trying to aim at a triage button?
[18:45] <Prodego> if it autorefreshes from the bottom that wouldn't be too bad
[18:45] <+jorm> there will NOT be an auto refresh that moves the screen around.
[18:45] <FooBarMartijn> true, but that makes it awkward to scroll back further to the top
[18:45] <Thehelpfulone> FooBarMartijn: oh I don't mean to have them scrolling across, it's more like you click a button to get them to refresh at the top
[18:46] <@Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: I think he means - you use twitter, right?
[18:46] <Thehelpfulone> possibly the same as the actual refresh button, but it wouldn't have to reload the whole page I imagine
[18:46] <@Ironholds> you know the non-automatic thing, where you just get a tab that says "20 new tweets", you click it, then they drop down?
[18:46] <FooBarMartijn> Ironholds, I'll just say 'yes' for convenience sake
[18:46] <@Ironholds> heh
[18:46] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: I'll add it to the rapidly-growing pile of "stuff we need to look into for the second cycle
[18:47] <Thehelpfulone> sure, is that list public?
[18:47] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: It should be! I was just thinking that
[18:47] <@Ironholds> I need to collate it from the various emails I've sent around, but it should then be made public
[18:47] <@Ironholds> sort of like a new page triage version of WP:PEREN ;p
[18:48] <Thehelpfulone> heh, with less rejections hopefully!
[18:49] <@Ironholds> indeed!
[18:49] <@Ironholds> we've had some really interesting suggestions
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[18:49] <@Ironholds> one idea was for a sort of "auto-detect which language this foreign language article is in" feature
[18:50] <@Ironholds> (I think Ian's precise reaction to that was "I don't know precisely how complicated that is, but...lots.)
[18:51] <@Ironholds> Alpha_Quadrant, you got ideas?
[18:51] * Andre_Engels (~chatzilla@wikimedia/andre-engels) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[18:51] <Thehelpfulone> hmm, how much of en is not in English?
[18:52] <FooBarMartijn> as a note, I'm being mainly AFK for a minute or what, but try to comment when I give a quick gander at my screen
[18:52] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: my gut feeling is it's an edge case
[18:52] <@Ironholds> like, I can think of articles where that would have been helpful, but not many
[18:52] <@Ironholds> and we have google translate :p
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[18:53] <@Ironholds> okay; it looks like we're wrapping up. Does anyone have final ideas, questions, suggestions? :)
[18:55] <@Ironholds> I'll take this as a "no" :P. Thanks to everyone for attending! I'm thinking we should hold them later in the day next time around; what do people think?
[18:55] <+fabriceflorin> Thank you all for your great feedback! It's really helpful for us to develop these features with your help, and it makes for a better design.
[18:55] <@Ironholds> so, off the top of my head, 22:00 UTC?
[18:55] <@Ironholds> which is 17:00 EST and 14:00 PST and oh god I've spent too long working for an american company
[18:55] <@Ironholds> (non profit! Gah
[18:55] <+fabriceflorin> We'll be passing on today's suggestions to the rest of the team and look forward to having a first prototype for you to look at in a couple weeks.
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[18:56] * Alpha_Quadrant (~opera@wikipedia/Alpha-Quadrant) Quit (Disconnected by services)
[18:56] <Alpha_Quadrant_> Ironholds: would it be possible to create a copyvio checker in the new page tool?
[18:56] * Alpha_Quadrant_ is now known as Alpha_Quadrant
[18:56] <+fabriceflorin> Thanks, and speak to you again shortly. Bye for now!
[18:56] <@Ironholds> Alpha_Quadrant_: possibly yes, possibly no
[18:56] <@Ironholds> I think there are legal questions about whether it would work
[18:56] <@Ironholds> (IANAL)
[18:56] <@Ironholds> but getting CSB working, that is important
[18:59] * +fabriceflorin (~fabricefl@ Quit (Quit: fabriceflorin)
[18:59] <@Ironholds> anyway, time to pop off; thank you everyone :)
Session Close: Thu Mar 22 18:59:57 2012