IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-03-22

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<poem style="font-family:monospace,Courier;background:#F2F2F2"> [17:51] * Ironholds changes topic to 'office hours: New Page Triage ( Page Triage) 22 March 2012 (TODAY), 18:00 UTC | | Publically logged during office hours.' [17:59] * TBloemink (~TBloemink@wikimedia/tbloemink) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:00] * Wiki13_ (~Wiki13@wikipedia/Wiki13) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:03] <Thehelpfulone> voice the cabal Ironholds :) [18:03] <Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: yeeeth, master [18:03] -> *chanserv* op #wikimedia-office Ironholds [18:03] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Ironholds [18:03] * Ironholds sets mode: +v jorm [18:04] * Fluff|ping (~Fluffernu@wikipedia/Fluffernutter) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:05] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Thehelpfulone [18:05] <@Ironholds> how many people do we have here for the session, anyhoo? [18:05] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone, I assume? ;p [18:05] * Rjd0060 (~Rjd0060@wikimedia/Rjd0060) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:05] * Fluff|ping is lurking, but unlikely to participate substantively [18:05] <+Thehelpfulone> :O [18:05] <Theo10011> You said the cabal? [18:05] <+Thehelpfulone> you could assume correctly Ironholds [18:05] * ChanServ sets mode: -v Thehelpfulone [18:06] <Thehelpfulone> Theo10011: some of the members must be kept a secret, for the good of the cabal [18:06] <@Ironholds> Theo10011: cabal? [18:06] <Theo10011> heh [18:06] <Theo10011> TINC [18:07] * +jorm is here. [18:07] <@Ironholds> jorm: you don't count. How's Herself doing, btw? [18:08] <+jorm> as good as can be expected. she had surgery yesterday and that went well. [18:08] * howief (~howiefung@ has joined #wikimedia-office [18:08] * Alpha_Quadrant (~opera@wikipedia/Alpha-Quadrant) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:08] <@Ironholds> well, good luck to her :) [18:08] <@Ironholds> ahoy, howief, Alpha_Quadrant [18:08] <howief> hello! [18:08] <Alpha_Quadrant> hello [18:08] * Qcoder00 (~chatzilla@unaffiliated/qcoder00) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:09] * MBisanz (~MBisanz@wikipedia/MBisanz) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:11] * freakofmimsy (~bhati@wikimedia/Sir-Nicholas-de-Mimsy-Porpington) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [18:11] <@Ironholds> we're just waiting on Fabrice, I think :) [18:12] <Theo10011> Who is Fabrice BTW? [18:12] <@Ironholds> Theo10011: Fabrice: Fabrice Florin [18:13] <@Ironholds> he's the Product Manager for new page triage [18:13] <Theo10011> Oh. [18:13] <Theo10011> Has he had an office hour before? [18:13] <@Ironholds> indeed, he's had twelve :) [18:13] <Theo10011> Don't recall ever talking. [18:13] <Theo10011> oh [18:13] <Theo10011> Sorry. [18:13] <@Ironholds> I worked out recently that we've held as many sessions in 3 months as sue has in, like, a year [18:13] <@Ironholds> heh, that's okay. They've all been for AFT, which is a very specific project [18:14] <@Ironholds> but he's very approachable on his talkpage at User:fabriceflorin if you have questions [18:14] <@Ironholds> anyway! It looks like he's going to be delayed, so we should get started [18:14] * basvb (50651727@wikipedia/Basvb) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:14] <Alpha_Quadrant> Ironholds: right now, Special:NewPages brings up a list if newly created file description pages that don't have files [18:14] <@Ironholds> is everyone aware of what New Page Triage is/does, or would a brief explanation help? :) [18:14] <Alpha_Quadrant> if this is replaced, will this still occur? [18:14] <@Ironholds> jorm, your opinion here? :) [18:15] * Jan_eissfeldt is now known as Jan_telco [18:15] <Alpha_Quadrant> usually these pages need to be deleted under F2 [18:15] <+jorm> are you asking "will newly created file descriptiosn that don't have files" still occur? the answer is probably. [18:15] <+jorm> if you're asking if we can show them, i don't see why not. [18:16] <Alpha_Quadrant> unless they were created because of a DYK or FP on commons [18:16] <Alpha_Quadrant> ok, so the new system will still generate this list [18:17] * fabriceflorin (~fabricefl@ has joined #wikimedia-office [18:18] * Jyothis (~Jyothis@wikipedia/Jyothis) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:18] <@Ironholds> fabriceflorin! [18:18] <fabriceflorin> Hi Ironholds. Sorry to be late ... [18:19] <@Ironholds> that's okay :) We're just getting started [18:19] <@Ironholds> we have Alpha_Quadrant, Thehelpfulone and Fluff|ping so far. Is anyone else quietly waiting in the wings, community-wise? :) [18:19] <fabriceflorin> Oh good. What's on the agenda today? [18:19] <Theo10011> hi fabriceflorin [18:19] <fabriceflorin> Hello Alpha_Quadrant, thank you so much for your thoughtful contributions to the Article Feedback experiment. [18:20] <Alpha_Quadrant> hello [18:20] <fabriceflorin> Hello Theo10011, nice to meet you! [18:20] <Theo10011> Nice to meet you too. :) [18:20] <@Ironholds> fabriceflorin: mostly it's just a general chat :) [18:20] <Alpha_Quadrant> I think Ironholds is just a little excited about this new NPP tool [18:20] * ChanServ sets mode: +v fabriceflorin [18:20] <+fabriceflorin> And many thanks to Thehelpfulone for being, um, so helpful! [18:20] <@Ironholds> Alpha_Quadrant: I've been working on getting elements of it released since December. You betcha. [18:20] <Theo10011> He always is. [18:20] * Andre_Engels (~chatzilla@wikimedia/andre-engels) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) [18:20] <@Ironholds> plus, as the staffers never cease reminding me [18:20] <+fabriceflorin> Hehe Alpha_Quadrant ;o) [18:21] <@Ironholds> I was the top patroller in 2010 [18:21] <@Ironholds> so I have a vested interest in making it awesome :P [18:21] * Jyothis (~Jyothis@wikipedia/Jyothis) Quit (Remote host closed the connection) [18:22] * Jyothis (~Jyothis@wikipedia/Jyothis) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:23] * FooBarMartijn (a951d160d3@wikipedia/Martijn-Hoekstra) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:23] <Alpha_Quadrant> Ironholds: so, when is this new tool coming out [18:24] <@Ironholds> Alpha_Quadrant: the first iteration, we have a two-month development cycle [18:24] <@Ironholds> and at the end of that we want to get out all the things listed at [18:24] * Alpha_Quadrant looks [18:25] <@Ironholds> Theo10011, you want to get involved in this? :) [18:25] <Theo10011> what? [18:25] <Thehelpfulone> fabriceflorin: you're welcome :) [18:25] <Theo10011> Sorry, I was in the middle of dinner. [18:25] <@Ironholds> ahh, don't disrupt noms on our part! [18:26] <Theo10011> Thanks. be back in a bit. [18:26] <@Ironholds> so, the core element is going to be the "list view", which will replace what we think of as Special:NewPages [18:26] <@Ironholds> and this will be a much nicer design, for one thing, but will also contain more filtering options and more data [18:26] <@Ironholds> there's a mockup at for example :) [18:27] <@Ironholds> As you can see it tells us stuff like who patrolled articles (when they have been patrolled), how many edits there have been, so on [18:27] <@Ironholds> there is a lot of other data it will eventually show, they just haven't made it into the mockup yet :) [18:27] <+fabriceflorin> Keep in mind this is a preliminary mockup, and things are likely to change based on feedback we get when the tool is ready to test. [18:27] * TBloemink (~TBloemink@wikimedia/tbloemink) has left #wikimedia-office ("Leaving") [18:28] <Prodego> oh that's ugly [18:28] <+fabriceflorin> Our hope is to have a first, very rough prototype to look at in the first week of April, if all goes well. [18:28] <@Ironholds> Prodego: as said, very preliminary :) [18:28] <@Ironholds> and yes, this is an important element to bring up [18:28] <@Ironholds> usually when we develop a prototype it goes to some special, temporary wiki [18:28] <@Ironholds> in this case, we'll be deploying it on enwiki at, say, Special:NewNewPages if we're feeling twee :) [18:28] <@Ironholds> so you'll be able to play around with it and tell us "it does X for this bit, but I actually do Y there" [18:29] <Prodego> layout looks reasonable though [18:29] <+fabriceflorin> Thanks, Prodego. Glad this first stab generally works for you. [18:29] <@Ironholds> Prodego: if you take a look at the full features list at - is there anything that stands out? [18:29] * BakkertjeWouter (57d3d1f2@wikipedia/BakkertjeWouter) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:29] <@Ironholds> or anything not there that would be useful? [18:30] * BakkertjeWouter (57d3d1f2@wikipedia/BakkertjeWouter) has left #wikimedia-office [18:30] <+fabriceflorin> The idea is to surface all the key data that would make a patroller's life easier. [18:30] <FooBarMartijn> Is there something in the works yet that when someone clicks Triage, it disappears from the list, or is marked as getting triaged yet - to avoid duplicate effort? [18:30] <Prodego> other than the misuse of the word triage? :) [18:30] <@Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: are we talking a live thing, rather than an "upon refresh, it disappears.."? [18:31] <FooBarMartijn> well, obviously the first would be preferable, the second being fallback acceptable, and nothing being 'oh dear' [18:31] <@Ironholds> the second is a definite, it's how things work at the moment [18:31] <@Ironholds> the first - jorm or fabriceflorin, you may know? [18:31] <@Ironholds> if not, I shall add it to my "list of things to ask Ian" :) [18:32] <+jorm> things should be as live as possible. [18:32] <+fabriceflorin> FooBarMartinj: we are experimenting with different ways to 'Mark as Triaged" and make the item disappear from the list, and put it in a separate queue. [18:32] <howief> the dev team is looking into surfacing the fact that someone else is working on an article [18:32] <@Ironholds> indeed, that's a given [18:32] <howief> the idea is to avoid conflicts and duplication of effort [18:32] <@Ironholds> so if someone else is working on an article, there will be an indicator that they are doing so (to avoid duplocation) [18:33] <@Ironholds> which may preclude needing live updates for triage/not triage [18:33] <@Ironholds> if I get a notice saying "Y is working on this!", I know to not bother, same as if I got a notice to say "Y has patrolled/triaged this!" [18:34] <@Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: does that make sense? [18:34] <FooBarMartijn> sure does [18:34] <Prodego> Ironholds: just don't forget to specify something about how long [18:35] <FooBarMartijn> there are obviously implentation details, but nothing that can't be resolved, I suppose [18:35] <@Ironholds> Prodego: as in, how long they have spent working on it? [18:35] <FooBarMartijn> that being the most obvious implementation detail ;) [18:35] <@Ironholds> so obviously we don't want someone accidentally leaving the window open and having the article just sit there :P [18:35] <Prodego> Ironholds: either by showing it, or by not letting people hold something for 72 hours [18:35] <@Ironholds> I assume there will be some sort of "time out", but what that time is we haven't settled on [18:35] <Prodego> so clicking once then leaving shouldn't still be showing everyone else you are working on i [18:36] <@Ironholds> it shouldn't, no :) [18:37] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone, you've been remarkably silent :P [18:38] * prashanthns (~prashanth@ has left #wikimedia-office [18:38] <Thehelpfulone> oh I drifted off to do some wiki stuff [18:38] <Thehelpfulone> yes my apologies :P [18:39] <Thehelpfulone> so when's the beta test Ironholds? [18:39] <FooBarMartijn> wait, we're not doing wikistuff here? [18:39] <Thehelpfulone> is it on wmflabs at the moment? [18:39] <Thehelpfulone> FooBarMartijn: on-wiki ;) [18:39] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: it'll be deployed on enwiki, hopefully in early-to-mid April :) [18:40] * Andre_Engels (~chatzilla@wikimedia/andre-engels) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:40] <@Ironholds> as far as I know there is no labs instance; basically the plan is as soon as we have something, we put it somewhere you can easily see it [18:40] <Thehelpfulone> okay [18:40] <@Ironholds> because otherwise we end up sticking it on this obscure wiki you need to create a new account to use, and ugh. [18:40] <@Ironholds> but it will run in parallel to the old software [18:41] <@Ironholds> so you'll have the existing interface at Special:NewPages, and the new one at Special:NewNewPages or NewPages2 or whatever so you can play around with it, get used to it, but not have to rely on it if bits suck [18:41] <Thehelpfulone> yep [18:41] <Thehelpfulone> is there an auto-refresh feature Ironholds? [18:42] <Thehelpfulone> or like twitter has "x tweets since you last loaded..." [18:42] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: I genuinely do not know! I know there is a sort of seamless, twitter-style panning down feature [18:42] <FooBarMartijn> some people might disagree, but I really like the idea of abusing as a testbed wiki with parallel features [18:42] <@Ironholds> but I don't know if it works in the other direction as well [18:42] <@Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: I totally agree. A lot of the time it isn't, technically-speaking, going to be feasible [18:42] <@Ironholds> but this is one place where it is (Special:NewPages isn't complicated, it's just a MySQL feed with extra trimmings) and so we should play around with the idea of bringing it closer to home, as it were [18:43] * SpeakFree (~IceChat77@wikipedia/SpeakFree) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:43] <@Ironholds> plus, to be blunt, we use enwiki as a testbed all the time, we just call it "deployment" :P [18:43] <FooBarMartijn> :D [18:43] <@Ironholds> jorm, you know the answer to "is there an auto-refresh?" [18:43] <+jorm> the answer is "not in the initial version" [18:44] <Thehelpfulone> a feature request then ;) [18:44] <FooBarMartijn> I'm not sure actually Thehelpfulone [18:44] <@Ironholds> jorm: cool :) [18:44] <@Ironholds> one worry I would have is a psychological one [18:44] <@Ironholds> if I see "90 new pages since you last did some work!" I get pressured [18:44] <FooBarMartijn> how many new pages per minute are we looking at? Is it really preferable to have those scrolling across your screen while trying to aim at a triage button? [18:45] <Prodego> if it autorefreshes from the bottom that wouldn't be too bad [18:45] <+jorm> there will NOT be an auto refresh that moves the screen around. [18:45] <FooBarMartijn> true, but that makes it awkward to scroll back further to the top [18:45] <Thehelpfulone> FooBarMartijn: oh I don't mean to have them scrolling across, it's more like you click a button to get them to refresh at the top [18:46] <@Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: I think he means - you use twitter, right? [18:46] <Thehelpfulone> possibly the same as the actual refresh button, but it wouldn't have to reload the whole page I imagine [18:46] <@Ironholds> you know the non-automatic thing, where you just get a tab that says "20 new tweets", you click it, then they drop down? [18:46] <FooBarMartijn> Ironholds, I'll just say 'yes' for convenience sake [18:46] <@Ironholds> heh [18:46] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: I'll add it to the rapidly-growing pile of "stuff we need to look into for the second cycle [18:47] <Thehelpfulone> sure, is that list public? [18:47] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: It should be! I was just thinking that [18:47] <@Ironholds> I need to collate it from the various emails I've sent around, but it should then be made public [18:47] <@Ironholds> sort of like a new page triage version of WP:PEREN ;p [18:48] <Thehelpfulone> heh, with less rejections hopefully! [18:49] <@Ironholds> indeed! [18:49] <@Ironholds> we've had some really interesting suggestions [18:49] * RoanKattouw (~chatzilla@mediawiki/Catrope) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:49] <@Ironholds> one idea was for a sort of "auto-detect which language this foreign language article is in" feature [18:50] <@Ironholds> (I think Ian's precise reaction to that was "I don't know precisely how complicated that is, but...lots.) [18:51] <@Ironholds> Alpha_Quadrant, you got ideas? [18:51] * Andre_Engels (~chatzilla@wikimedia/andre-engels) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) [18:51] <Thehelpfulone> hmm, how much of en is not in English? [18:52] <FooBarMartijn> as a note, I'm being mainly AFK for a minute or what, but try to comment when I give a quick gander at my screen [18:52] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: my gut feeling is it's an edge case [18:52] <@Ironholds> like, I can think of articles where that would have been helpful, but not many [18:52] <@Ironholds> and we have google translate :p [18:52] * Andre_Engels (~chatzilla@wikimedia/andre-engels) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:53] <@Ironholds> okay; it looks like we're wrapping up. Does anyone have final ideas, questions, suggestions? :) [18:55] <@Ironholds> I'll take this as a "no" :P. Thanks to everyone for attending! I'm thinking we should hold them later in the day next time around; what do people think? [18:55] <+fabriceflorin> Thank you all for your great feedback! It's really helpful for us to develop these features with your help, and it makes for a better design. [18:55] <@Ironholds> so, off the top of my head, 22:00 UTC? [18:55] <@Ironholds> which is 17:00 EST and 14:00 PST and oh god I've spent too long working for an american company [18:55] <@Ironholds> (non profit! Gah [18:55] <+fabriceflorin> We'll be passing on today's suggestions to the rest of the team and look forward to having a first prototype for you to look at in a couple weeks. [18:55] * Alpha_Quadrant_ (~opera@wikipedia/Alpha-Quadrant) has joined #wikimedia-office [18:56] * Alpha_Quadrant (~opera@wikipedia/Alpha-Quadrant) Quit (Disconnected by services) [18:56] <Alpha_Quadrant_> Ironholds: would it be possible to create a copyvio checker in the new page tool? [18:56] * Alpha_Quadrant_ is now known as Alpha_Quadrant [18:56] <+fabriceflorin> Thanks, and speak to you again shortly. Bye for now! [18:56] <@Ironholds> Alpha_Quadrant_: possibly yes, possibly no [18:56] <@Ironholds> I think there are legal questions about whether it would work [18:56] <@Ironholds> (IANAL) [18:56] <@Ironholds> but getting CSB working, that is important [18:59] * +fabriceflorin (~fabricefl@ Quit (Quit: fabriceflorin) [18:59] <@Ironholds> anyway, time to pop off; thank you everyone :) Session Close: Thu Mar 22 18:59:57 2012