IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-05-16

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<poem style="font-family:monospace,Courier;background:#F2F2F2"> Session Start: Wed May 16 22:43:38 2012 Session Ident: #wikimedia-office [22:43] * Now talking in #wikimedia-office [22:43] * Topic is 'IRC office hours | Next office hours: 2012-05-16 21:00 UTC on the New Pages Feed with Oliver Keyes, Howie Fung, Brandon Harris and Fabrice Florin' [22:43] * Set by Thehelpfulone!~Helper@wikimedia/Thehelpfulone on Mon May 14 19:40:32 [22:43] #wikimedia-office url is [22:43] <Ironholds> morning editors :) [22:43] <Ironholds> also staffers. BOOO [22:44] * Utar (50fa04ab@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #wikimedia-office [22:44] <WereSpielChequer> Good evening to all in the colonies [22:44] <Ironholds> hey Utar! [22:44] * Jyothis (~Jyothis@wikipedia/Jyothis) has joined #wikimedia-office [22:44] <Ironholds> how is everyone? [22:45] * TBloemink (~TBloemink@wikimedia/tbloemink) has joined #wikimedia-office [22:45] <Utar> hey ironholds! [22:45] * brion_ (~brion@wikipedia/pdpc.professional.brion) Quit (Quit: brion_) [22:45] <TBloemink> hi [22:46] <Ironholds> yo dawg [22:46] <Ironholds> so I herd u liek stroopwafels [22:46] <TBloemink> :P [22:46] <FooBarMartijn> everybody likes stroopwafels [22:46] * Jyothis (~Jyothis@wikipedia/Jyothis) Quit (Remote host closed the connection) [22:47] * geniice (~chatzilla@wikipedia/geniice) has joined #wikimedia-office [22:47] * Jyothis (~Jyothis@wikipedia/Jyothis) has joined #wikimedia-office [22:49] * fabriceflorin (~fabricefl@ has joined #wikimedia-office [22:49] <Thehelpfulone> morning Ironholds [22:49] <Thehelpfulone> oh there's a meeting today! :) [22:49] <fabriceflorin> evening Ironholds and Thehelpfulone ! [22:49] <Thehelpfulone> hi fabriceflorin :) [22:50] <fabriceflorin> Yes, today's meeting is about the New Pages Feed project. Ironholds will officiate ... [22:50] <Ironholds> hey Thehelpfulone :) [22:50] <Ironholds> indeed, when I get skype working [22:50] <Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: this is true. I remain convinced they're the path to world peace [22:50] * egg (egg@wikimedia/egg) has joined #wikimedia-office [22:51] <Utar> btw, what else is going to be triaged that you have to change the name of this project [22:51] <FooBarMartijn> Ironholds, have you encountered the magic that is Bitterballen yet [22:51] * Fluffernutter (~Fluffernu@wikipedia/Fluffernutter) has joined #wikimedia-office [22:51] <Ironholds> I have not! [22:51] * The_Blade (~chatzilla@wikipedia/The-Blade-of-the-Northern-Lights) has joined #wikimedia-office [22:51] <Fluffernutter> ohai [22:51] <Ironholds> Utar: nothing else, it's a long and complicated story [22:51] * YuviPanda (~textual@ has joined #wikimedia-office [22:51] * shimgray (~andrew@wikimedia/Shimgray) has joined #wikimedia-office [22:51] <Ironholds> that mostly resolves to "triage is a non-nice word" [22:52] <Utar> too near to "triade"? [22:52] <Ironholds> well, it brings up the idea of blood-soaked doctors deciding who lives or dies ;p [22:52] * GerardM- ( has joined #wikimedia-office [22:52] * fabriceflorin_ (~fabricefl@ has joined #wikimedia-office [22:52] <Utar> so it is the right name [22:53] <FooBarMartijn> Ironholds, actually, that is closer to the reality of new page triage than the definition of triage is [22:53] * Athyria (~urgh@wikimedia/Isarra) has joined #wikimedia-office [22:53] <Logan_> Yes, hello. [22:53] <Logan_> Logan here. [22:53] <Ironholds> fabriceflorin: whoever maintains our intertubes should be shot ;p [22:53] * WilliamH_UK (WilliamH_U@Wikipedia/WilliamH) has joined #wikimedia-office [22:53] <Ironholds> FooBarMartijn, Utar, do you normally triage covered in blood? ;p [22:53] * fabriceflorin_ (~fabricefl@ Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [22:53] <Utar> no, my prays are covered, i stay clean [22:53] <Ironholds> sorry, patrol [22:53] <FooBarMartijn> judging by the general state of CAT:CSD most patrollers do [22:53] * Ironholds is fail this evenign [22:53] <Fluffernutter> what fun is triage if no one loses a limb? [22:53] * Frood (~Frood@firefox/community/pilif12p) has joined #wikimedia-office [22:53] <Ironholds> we installed 32 servers. Everything now hurts. [22:53] * Sven_Manguard (~~Perhaps@wikipedia/Sven-Manguard) has joined #wikimedia-office [22:53] <Sven_Manguard> GWAH HA HA HA HA! [22:54] <FooBarMartijn> hey, I did offer help [22:54] <WereSpielChequer> blood soaked Drs sounds better than a space invaders game [22:54] <Ironholds> Sven_Manguard: the league of villans is elsewhere [22:54] * Athyria hands Fluffernutter an axe. [22:54] <WilliamH_UK> evening all [22:54] <Utar> let us chop chop some article whhile we are waiting for the rest [22:54] <Sven_Manguard> But you're here Ironholds! [22:54] <Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: indeed, and if we knew at the time that there was another stack of boxes we hadn't discovered yet I'd have taken you on :) [22:54] <Ironholds> I got home around 15 minutes ago [22:54] <Athyria> Was triage the thing for new pages, or was that some gnome 3 thing? [22:54] <Fluffernutter> Athyria, i haven't written an article about an axe murder yet. I should put that on my to-do list [22:54] * fabriceflorin_ (~fabricefl@ has joined #wikimedia-office [22:54] <Ironholds> and yay, boatmate has brought food! [22:54] <fabriceflorin_> We just thought it was too confusing to have the words 'patrol', 'triage' and 'review' used to describe a similar process. So we decided to drop 'triage' for starters ... [22:55] <Sven_Manguard> Ironholds: you're on the boat now? [22:55] <Utar> Fluffernutter: don§t write about yourself [22:55] <Ironholds> fabriceflorin: welcome back :). Internet stable? [22:55] <Ironholds> Sven_Manguard: I'm indeed on a boat [22:55] <Sven_Manguard> The awesome-liveboat? [22:55] <Ironholds> I have a nautical-themed Afghan [22:55] <Athyria> So now it's boat-related? [22:55] <Sven_Manguard> Oliver "T Pain" Keyes [22:55] <fabriceflorin_> Fluffernutter: I like 'ohai' as an alternative to 'ahoy' ;o) [22:55] <Ironholds> fabriceflorin: that's my word, dammit! [22:55] <Utar> o-gloh-gloh-shhhh [22:55] <FooBarMartijn> Ironholds, I actually hung around at Amsterdam central station until you mailed we were postponing until tomorrow [22:55] <Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: aww! :( [22:55] <egg> o-hai \o_ [22:55] <Fluffernutter> Utar: but what if I'm a notable axe murderer! COI is only a guideline! :P [22:56] <Fluffernutter> fabriceflorin: or we could go for the czech version, "ahoj" [22:56] <Utar> Fluffernutter: you just need to kill more... [22:56] <Sven_Manguard> fabriceflorin and fabriceflorin_ there are two of you. might want to kill off or rename one [22:56] <FooBarMartijn> Ironholds, don't feel bad, it's a more or less natural stop on my way home from work [22:56] <Ironholds> egg: welcome :) [22:56] <Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: okay, I feel less bad now [22:56] <Utar> Fluffernutter: i will go for :ahoj: [22:56] * foks (~firefoxau@wikipedia/fox) has joined #wikimedia-office [22:56] * Athyria pokes fabriceflorin_. [22:56] <FooBarMartijn> besides, I grabbed a burgerking dinner there [22:56] <Athyria> So what's this thing now? [22:56] * fabriceflorin (~fabricefl@ Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) [22:56] * fabriceflorin_ is now known as fabriceflorin [22:57] <Utar> egg: AHOJ [22:57] * Frood cracks egg [22:57] <Ironholds> [22:57] * Athyria throws eggs. [22:57] <Utar> don't eat him! [22:57] <Ironholds> (re Athyria) [22:57] <egg> Utar: nazdar [22:57] <Ironholds> I had an awesome dutch egg thing earlier [22:57] <Athyria> Excelllent. [22:57] <Ironholds> bread, egg, ham und kaas [22:57] <Utar> kaos< ? [22:57] <Ironholds> cheese, apparently :) [22:57] <fabriceflorin> Fluffernutter: 'ahoj' works for me -- though being part american, I might use 'oh-yeah'! [22:58] <Sven_Manguard> Ladies and gentlemen, there are *three minutes* before the meeting starts. Please have all eggs thown by then. If we annoy jorm during the meeting he might shut off the Wiki [22:58] <Ironholds> fabriceflorin: Fluffernutter is a yankee ;p [22:58] * RoanKattouw (~chatzilla@mediawiki/Catrope) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) [22:58] <Ironholds> Sven_Manguard: my housemate is an ops engineer [22:58] <Ironholds> we can do far worse than shut off the site :P [22:58] <Fluffernutter> surprisingly many people seem to think i'm a brit [22:58] <Ironholds> well, housemate, boatmate. Same thing. [22:58] <jorm> i have my finger on the kill switch. [22:58] <Ironholds> Fluffernutter: it's the sarcasm [22:58] <FooBarMartijn> like edit template:! ? [22:58] <Athyria> This name change is far better news than anything else I've seen lately. Not that it takes much to beat the announcement that my party reselved some half-digested armour for me... [22:58] <Utar> just a nip of kaos for me "D [22:58] <Ironholds> jorm: which one, the Template:! one, the power one, or the trigger for all that semtex under Sven_Manguard's abode [22:58] <Sven_Manguard> Ironholds: I was under the impression that no one is more powerful than Jorm, becuase he has the best hair, and as Dilbert says, power is determined by hair [22:59] * Athyria throws eggs at Sven_Manguard. [22:59] * foks (~firefoxau@wikipedia/fox) has left #wikimedia-office [22:59] <Athyria> Wait, how often does he wash his hair, and does he use soap? [22:59] <Athyria> I have to ask. [22:59] <jorm> this was covered in my reddit AMA. [22:59] <Sven_Manguard> Ironholds: if you blow me up you'll be killing a lot of other innocent people. [22:59] <Athyria> Oh yay, more half-digested armour... [22:59] <Frood> jorm can't shut the wiki off [22:59] * linSmith ( has joined #wikimedia-office [22:59] <jorm> techcrunch even wrote an article about how i wash my hair. [22:59] <jorm> i'm totally serious, too. [22:59] <Athyria> o__o [22:59] <The_Blade> For a few minutes on April 1, Jorm even created all of Wikipedia. [23:00] * RoanKattouw (~chatzilla@mediawiki/Catrope) has joined #wikimedia-office [23:00] <Utar> do really jorm have some hares? [23:00] <Sven_Manguard> and besides, I moved the plastic explosives to the WMF office. Try and blow me up and you'll lose your office [23:00] <Ironholds> Sven_Manguard: no such thing as an innocent person [23:00] * Ainali (50d8ab1a@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #wikimedia-office [23:00] <Ironholds> Sven_Manguard: I don't work there. fail! [23:00] <Sven_Manguard> Ironholds: Yes, but the people that *pay you* do [23:00] <Sven_Manguard> so there [23:00] <jorm> (the take away is: i change my shampoo every month or so to different brands) [23:00] * tchor (~tchor@wikimedia/tchor) has joined #wikimedia-office [23:00] <Sven_Manguard> and with that, it's 5:00, so IMPRESS US [23:00] <Athyria> I have eggs. [23:01] <Utar> tchor: ahoj! [23:01] <Sven_Manguard> with MEETING MUMBO JUMBO +5 of MUMBO [23:01] <The_Blade> I eagerly await being impressed. [23:01] <Athyria> And eggs. [23:01] <jorm> ask and you shall receive: [23:01] <FooBarMartijn> of everything that is replaceble in the WMF (which is quite a lot), the building that houses the office might well be the most replaceable thing of them all [23:01] <Logan_> :O [23:01] * Sven_Manguard changes topic to 'IRC office hours | | Next office hours: 2012-05-16 21:00 UTC on the New Pages Feed with Oliver Keyes, Howie Fung, Brandon Harris and Fabrice Florin' [23:01] <Ironholds> spot a bug, tell me. Spot anything you can't identify, tell me :) [23:02] <Athyria> Is MediaWiki replaceable? [23:02] <Sven_Manguard> Link added to the top now [23:02] <Ironholds> except a sort of "HAVE YOU SEEN THIS MAN" poster, or where your car keys are [23:02] <Ironholds> Athyria: heh. I wish [23:02] <Utar> crew - lights - camera - action! [23:02] <Athyria> Aww. [23:02] * Athyria hugs Ironholds. [23:02] * Sven_Manguard changes topic to 'IRC office hours | | Next office hours: 2012-05-16 21:00 UTC on the New Pages Feed with Oliver Keyes, Howie Fung, Brandon Harris and Fabrice Florin | We're talking about' [23:02] <WereSpielChequer> [23:02] <Logan_> jorm: Okay, so. Is something supposed to happen after you press "Review?" Or is it just supposed to take you to the page? [23:02] * Retrieving #wikimedia-office modes... [23:02] <egg> eye-candy icons :-/ [23:03] <jorm> it takes you to the page. [23:03] <jorm> or it should. [23:03] * heatherw (~hwalls@wikimedia/heatherawalls) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [23:03] <Logan_> Oh, I remember more stuff in the concept. [23:03] <Ironholds> Logan_: the latter. When the software is finished, there'll be a special toolbar to patrol and tag. [23:03] <Logan_> Ah, yes, that's what I'm referring to. [23:03] * heatherw (~hwalls@ has joined #wikimedia-office [23:03] * heatherw (~hwalls@ Quit (Changing host) [23:03] * heatherw (~hwalls@wikimedia/heatherawalls) has joined #wikimedia-office [23:03] <geniice> jorm appaears to include redirects? [23:03] <Ironholds> geniice: known bug, I believe :) [23:03] <jorm> it's a known bug. [23:04] <Utar> ironholds: ORPHAN and NO CATEGORIES by REDIRECT pages are more visbile than REDIRECT itsefl [23:04] <jorm> there's a filter for that, we want to mimic existing funcationality. [23:04] <Athyria> It looks like gmail. [23:04] * Dominikmatus ( has joined #wikimedia-office [23:04] <jorm> WereSpielChequer: reading your niggles. there's some stuff in there. [23:04] <Thehelpfulone> questions I meant to ask Ironholds - There are currently 3496 unreviewed pages [23:04] <jorm> sec. [23:04] <Ironholds> Utar: that is, the text is too small compared to the tags? [23:04] <Athyria> Interesting design choice. [23:04] * Fluffernutter still wishes "review" opened up a sort of sub-window pop-up, rather than moving me to a whole new page [23:04] <FooBarMartijn> It doesn't filter out reviewed pages yet, but it will, right? [23:04] <Thehelpfulone> any way to hit a reset button for this? [23:04] <egg> it looks like i-phone [23:04] <aude> hi [23:04] <FooBarMartijn> Fluffernutter, open in new tab is your friend [23:04] <jorm> okay. so that number up there is cached, and we know it's being incorrectly calculated right now. [23:04] <Ironholds> Fluffernutter: we're talking about having it automatically open the page in a new tab [23:04] <Thehelpfulone> or does it expire after... 30 days? [23:04] <Ironholds> I believe Thehelpfulone suggested [23:04] <jorm> FooBarMartijn: you can turn off the reviewed filter. [23:04] <Utar> ironholds: i mean you see: ugh, ORPHAN, ugh, NO CATS, deleted it NOW [23:04] <Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: reviewed pages will expire after 60, unreviewed, never [23:04] <Thehelpfulone> I don't want to see that number growing up to 10000 pages - that would be scary for NPPers [23:04] <Thehelpfulone> ok [23:04] <Sven_Manguard> Thehelpfulone: the 30 days thing is now 60 I thinl [23:04] <FooBarMartijn> jorm, ah, I see [23:05] <Fluffernutter> Yeah, i do open in new tab, but it would feel more stremlined if it just spanwed "under" the NPP interface itself [23:05] <fabriceflorin> Hello everyone, thanks for joining our meeting about the New Pages Feed! It's a pleasure to meet you all, and we can't wait to hear your thoughts about this new interface for new page patrol: [23:05] <Ironholds> Fluffernutter: interesting idea [23:05] <Utar> ironholds: and want get that little redirect writing [23:05] <Utar> ironholds: won't [23:05] * Fluffernutter is obsessive about saving mouse clicks and page openings. You'd think I had to pay for them or something. [23:05] * GerardM- ( Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [23:05] <Utar> ok, time to use direct sending, guys [23:05] <WereSpielChequer> foobarMartijn - yes I've tested that you can filter out patrolled edits [23:05] <Ironholds> Fluffernutter: heh [23:05] <Logan_> jorm: When I go to a page and then hit the back button, can it be made so that it goes back to the previous position in the list? [23:05] <FooBarMartijn> jorm, the text after "showing" confused me at first. I assumed "include reviewed" would be an action, rather than the current status [23:06] * egg (egg@wikimedia/egg) has left #wikimedia-office [23:06] <jorm> that's an idea for a feature. it might be difficult, though, logan. [23:06] <Dominikmatus> Little wird design. [23:06] <Thehelpfulone> Ironholds: op, voice etc so we know who's here, and who's missing (*cough* howie *cough*) [23:06] * The_Blade (~chatzilla@wikipedia/The-Blade-of-the-Northern-Lights) Quit (Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]) [23:06] * Dominikmatus ( has left #wikimedia-office [23:06] <Athyria> Whooo, redirects! [23:06] <fabriceflorin> You can learn more about New Pages Feed on this help page: [23:06] <Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: gotcha :) [23:06] <Ironholds> the help page is, note, still very much under construction [23:06] <Utar> ironholds: Top 5 reviewers - just count? [23:06] <Ironholds> Utar: that is, it should show the number of patrols by each? [23:06] <fabriceflorin> We'd love to hear what you like -- and what you don't like -- about this first prototype for New Pages Feed. [23:07] <WereSpielChequer> I like green for patrolled and charcoal grey for tagged for deletion, but I'm unhappy with pink and a red button for unpatrolled. The old system had yellow for unpatrolled, white would do equally well but yellow would at least carry something from the old system. Ideally we'd use that warning red on pink one to warn people of high risk articles such as those by people previously warned for... [23:07] <WereSpielChequer> ...creating hoaxes and other badfaith articles. [23:07] <Athyria> This thing doesn't work very well with a small screen. [23:07] <jorm> so, just so we know, i'm not happy with the gradient on the top and bottom bar right now. [23:07] * howief (~howiefung@ has joined #wikimedia-office [23:07] <Ironholds> WereSpielChequer: yellow is hell for UI [23:07] <Utar> ironholds: doesnt or where? [23:07] <Sven_Manguard> Ironholds: Leaderboards are a *bad idea* because they only reward speed, not quality [23:07] <Ironholds> Utar: should it? :) [23:07] <FooBarMartijn> I'm personally very unhappy with "Top 5 reviewers" [23:07] <Athyria> jorm: What gradient? [23:07] <WereSpielChequer> UI? �05[23:07] -ChanServ- Invalid command. Use �/msg ChanServ help� for a command listing. [23:07] <FooBarMartijn> but Sven_Manguard beat me to the point [23:07] <Utar> ironholds: you should know that, not I [23:07] <Ironholds> WereSpielChequer: user interface [23:07] <jorm> WereSpielChequer: we're not really able to do that kind of thing - say "This is a high risk" article - because it may violate our 501 status. [23:07] -> *chanserv* +o Ironholds #wikimedia-office �05[23:07] -ChanServ- Invalid command. Use �/msg ChanServ help� for a command listing. [23:07] -> *chanserv* +op Ironholds #wikimedia-office �05[23:07] -ChanServ- Invalid command. Use �/msg ChanServ help� for a command listing. [23:08] <Utar> Ultiamtively Innocent [23:08] -> *chanserv* op Ironholds #wikimedia-office �05[23:08] -ChanServ- Channel �Ironholds� is not registered. [23:08] -> *chanserv* op #wikimedia-office Ironholds [23:08] <jorm> Sven: ideally, the leaderboard would be something that is more about "accuracy" rather than "numbers" [23:08] * Fluffernutter would agree with FooBarMartijn about the "leaderboard" idea. I don't think those really have any place on wikipedia, period (against things like wikicup for same reason) [23:08] <WereSpielChequer> OK then howabout white [23:08] <jorm> but we want to spend more time researching what that means. [23:08] <fabriceflorin> WereSpielChequer: Good point. I agree with you that it is premature to use red for articles for which we don't know if they are good or bad yet. We are discussing using an orange color instead, which would be close to the yellow you use, but easier to read. Would that work for you? [23:08] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Ironholds [23:08] <@Ironholds> argh. cannot get the op command to work [23:08] <Athyria> Why does it need a leaderboard at all? [23:08] <@Ironholds> oh, there we are [23:08] <Utar> ironholds: no, numbers not needed [23:08] <Sven_Manguard> Athyria: +1 [23:08] <Utar> ironholds: just curious top in which thing [23:08] * Ironholds sets mode: +v fabriceflorin [23:08] <Logan_> +1 to removing the leaderboard [23:08] <WereSpielChequer> orange would be fine. [23:08] <FooBarMartijn> well, I don't mean gamification much, though we can agree to disagree on that, but this is actively promoting doing a shoddy job [23:08] <FooBarMartijn> that is bad (tm) [23:08] * Ironholds sets mode: +v jorm [23:08] <Thehelpfulone> How is a Bot a top reviewer? [23:08] * Ironholds sets mode: +v howief [23:09] <FooBarMartijn> s/mean/mind [23:09] <Athyria> It also takes up space. [23:09] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: known bug :( [23:09] <+jorm> bug, tho. [23:09] <@Ironholds> it's also counting autopatrolled edits [23:09] <Thehelpfulone> ok [23:09] <Athyria> I can only see six articles at a time. [23:09] <Athyria> Space is important! [23:09] <+jorm> cluebot was the number one patroller for a while. [23:09] <@Ironholds> I stuck it in bugzilla, kaldari reviewed, everyone happy [23:09] <Logan_> Needs dynamic resizing. [23:09] <Logan_> CSS. [23:09] <Utar> use scrollbar or buy bigger monitor [23:09] <Logan_> yaknow [23:09] <Utar> easy [23:09] <@Ironholds> Utar: we need to hire you for PR [23:09] <+jorm> it dynamically resizes, and has scroll. [23:09] <Athyria> Needs better space! [23:10] <Utar> @Ironholds: for monitor selling company? [23:10] <Fluffernutter> ...articles marked for deletion are noted with a trash can? so...appropriate and yet rude! [23:10] <+jorm> i hate to say it, athyria, but this is the year 2012. [23:10] <@Ironholds> Utar: heh. Possibly! [23:10] <@Ironholds> Fluffernutter: well, it's rather intuitive [23:10] <Fluffernutter> it is that, yes [23:10] <@Ironholds> I guess we could have the silouette of a snooty frenchman holding his nose [23:10] <Athyria> jorm: Some of us use laptops. [23:10] <Fluffernutter> heh [23:10] <+jorm> i'm on a laptop; i get 9 or so. [23:10] <+jorm> but scrolling is a cheap user affordance. [23:10] <Fluffernutter> speedies should have stink lines coming off the can, prods none [23:11] <Logan_> jorm: I get 7 on one screen. [23:11] <Athyria> I take that back; the laptop I normally use only gets five at a time. o_O [23:11] <aude> netbooks, ipads, ....... smaller and smaller [23:11] * JAnD (~jan_dudik@ has joined #wikimedia-office [23:11] <+jorm> and yet, you can scroll! [23:11] <Utar> ironholds: gotcha [23:11] <Logan_> jorm: Just pointing it out. :p [23:11] * aude wants an app to patrol on my phone :) [23:11] <Utar> ironholds: articles starting with template are not showing text i feed [23:11] <Athyria> It's hard to scroll when you don't have a mouse. [23:11] <@Ironholds> Utar: really? dammit, they should [23:11] * Ainali (50d8ab1a@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed) [23:11] <@Ironholds> could you send me a screenshot? [23:11] <FooBarMartijn> aude, cool idea [23:12] <FooBarMartijn> aude, we could make that. It would be awesome [23:12] <Utar> Potes , 7th newest - iush [23:12] * Krenair (~Krenair@wikimedia/Krenair) has joined #wikimedia-office [23:12] <aude> heh [23:12] <@Ironholds> Utar; ta [23:12] <+jorm> aude: the design of this tool is "mobile first" so it's intended for mobiles eventually. [23:12] <FooBarMartijn> not really related to this proposal though [23:12] <Logan_> Well, there doesn't seem to be enough praise here, so I'll say that I like it. [23:12] <Utar> @Ironholds: jaw [23:12] <Logan_> Just some minor things that I think need to be changed. [23:12] <+jorm> i was thinking mostly about tablets when i designed it. [23:12] <Logan_> Such as the removal of the leaderboard. [23:12] <Athyria> Be nice if it'd return to the previous position when going back to it after reviewing something. [23:12] <@Ironholds> Utar: found it! Gah. [23:12] <@Ironholds> thanks :). I'll stick it in bugzilla [23:13] <Logan_> Athyria: I already suggested that. ;P [23:13] <Logan_> I guess the remedy for now is to open in a new tab. [23:13] * Athyria huggles Logan_. [23:13] <@Ironholds> so, the leaderboard is something people don't like? [23:13] * Vito_away is now known as Vito [23:13] <FooBarMartijn> when AfC's are moved to main space, the creation date is listed as the creation date (well, duh) while the move to main date would be much more natural [23:13] <Athyria> Ironholds: Yes. [23:13] <Utar> hey, List of lighthouses in Virginia weren't there a minute ago [23:13] <Logan_> Ironholds: Yes. [23:13] <aude> Ironholds: leaderboard is anti-wiki culture [23:13] <Utar> is it just slowly loading?? [23:13] <aude> only gonna' cause problems [23:14] <+fabriceflorin> Athyria: Interesting points. What are you using instead of a mouse? a touchpad? [23:14] * Avruch (~Me@wikimedia/Nathan) Quit (Quit: Leaving) [23:14] <@Ironholds> aude: interesting! [23:14] <@Ironholds> Utar: hmmn [23:14] <Utar> @Ironholds: the oldest [23:14] <Athyria> fabriceflorin: Yeah... >.< [23:14] <@Ironholds> ahh [23:14] <@Ironholds> I was looking in the wrong place [23:14] <aude> unoffically, some people like editcountis but edit count is not supposed to matter [23:15] <Athyria> Incidentally my touchpad doesn't even have a scroll thingy, so it's really awful. [23:15] <aude> and some people hate it [23:15] <Sven_Manguard> okay I count myself, aude, Athyria, FooBarMartijn, Utar, and Logan_ as bring against the leaderboard Ironholds [23:15] <@Ironholds> Utar: ahh, it was moved [23:15] <Athyria> But that's just windows being stupid, not a typical issue. [23:15] * abartov_ (~abartov@ Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [23:15] <Sven_Manguard> that's about everyone in the channel that's speaking [23:15] <+fabriceflorin> Athyria: Thanks. We're looking into your idea of returning to the previous position, which makes sense, if feasible. Though it may be harder to implement. Stay tuned. [23:15] * abartov_ (~abartov@ has joined #wikimedia-office [23:15] <FooBarMartijn> Sven_Manguard, you forgot to add Fluffernutter, who also spoke against it [23:15] <+jorm> mediawiki may prevent us from doing that. [23:15] <Fluffernutter> ^ [23:15] <Utar> Sven_Manguard: i will borrow that axe from Fluff [23:15] <+jorm> because mediawiki sucks. [23:15] <@Ironholds> Utar: this is an interesting bug. Thanks! [23:15] <+jorm> of course. [23:16] <Utar> @Ironholds: jaw! [23:16] <@Ironholds> Utar: jaw? [23:16] <Athyria> fabriceflorin: You just need magic. Since it's all js anyway, there's not lack of magic. [23:16] <Sven_Manguard> Okay, Fluffernutter too. That's *everyone* that has spoken in this channel that is not WMF staff [23:16] * Athyria grins maniacally. [23:16] * LeslieCarr (~lcarr@wikimedia/LeslieCarr) has joined #wikimedia-office [23:16] <Athyria> Sven_Manguard: XD [23:16] <Sven_Manguard> except WSC [23:16] <Utar> @Ironholds: jo ar wlcm [23:16] <+fabriceflorin> How important is 'infinite scroll' to you? Would a standard pagination be better? [23:16] <Fluffernutter> god, the more new pages i look at in this feed, the more i lose faith in humanity [23:16] <Utar> @Ironholds lol it has some meaning itself too [23:17] <Utar> @Ironholds: jaws then :D [23:17] <WereSpielChequer> <cough> I like leaderboards, but even I don't want them on that screen [23:17] <Athyria> Would pagination slow things down? [23:17] <Logan_> jorm: Are you planning to get navpopups working with it? [23:17] <@Ironholds> Athyria: we're discussing ideas right now :) [23:17] <Athyria> Or does the scroll slow things more? [23:17] <+jorm> it would. [23:17] <+fabriceflorin> Athyria: Would your issue with the mouse be addressed by enabling page up or page down? Using keyboard arrow keys? [23:17] <Athyria> That might help, aye. [23:17] * JAnD (~jan_dudik@ has left #wikimedia-office [23:18] <+jorm> we don't have a keyboard thinger yet. [23:18] <+jorm> we're going to be definately doing keyboard accellerators in the toolbar, so they would show up then. [23:18] <@Ironholds> a thinger is technical terminology for "a thing" [23:18] <Logan_> because I'm not getting navigation popups with NPT. [23:18] <Logan_> is that a known bug? [23:18] <@Ironholds> Logan_: interesting. hmn. [23:18] <Utar> I have managed to see 25 entries at once [23:18] <@Ironholds> Logan_: it is now ;p [23:18] <Utar> am godlike :D [23:18] <Athyria> Oh, I thought that was just because I forgot to log in. [23:18] <FooBarMartijn> repeat comment which might have downed in the frantic reporting of things: when AfC's are moved to main space, the creation date is listed as the creation date (well, duh) while the move to main date would be much more natural [23:18] <+jorm> Logan_: it won't happen, and it can't. [23:18] <+jorm> i'm sorry about that, but, you know, it's mediawiki. [23:18] <@Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: agreed! [23:18] <Athyria> The popups are important! [23:18] <Logan_> jorm: Variable conflicts? [23:19] <@Ironholds> just noticed that thanks to I believe Logan_ or Utar [23:19] <+jorm> navpopups are fired on page load; the data doesn't exist on page load. [23:19] <Logan_> I think it will cause some backlash. [23:19] <@Ironholds> saved as a bugzilla report :) [23:19] <Logan_> Oh. [23:19] <+jorm> the list is populated *AFTER* the page loads, as it were, and after navpopups would be generated. [23:19] <+fabriceflorin> Also, would you guys like to see more items listed at a time on the page? Or would you prefer it if we did not show as much info for each page in the list view to make it more compact? [23:19] <Athyria> So make someone on the popups end fix it. [23:19] <+jorm> THAT SAID, we could possibly mimic it. [23:19] <Logan_> jorm: Can't you fire navpopups every time the thing is refreshed? [23:19] <Logan_> Using AJAX? [23:19] <+jorm> it's theoretically possible, but we don't "own" navpopups. [23:20] <Fluffernutter> (this might have been noted before and I missed it) jorm & Ironholds: does the feed live-update, or do we need to continually refresh [23:20] <Logan_> It's a community script. [23:20] <@Ironholds> Fluffernutter: that's actually a question *I've* been meaning to ask :). jorm [23:20] <@Ironholds> ? [23:20] <WereSpielChequer> The Krunal Jambusaria Postulate had a redlinked author talkpage despite being tagged for deletion. But when I checked they had been informed of the deletion tag 25 minutes earlier [23:20] <@Ironholds> WereSpielChequer: where is that in the list? [23:20] <@Ironholds> I'll bugzilla it [23:21] <WereSpielChequer> Articles tagged for deletion despite the authors having redlinked talkpages is something I detest and focus on so this would be distracting for me [23:21] * StevenW (~swalling@wikimedia/steven-walling) has joined #wikimedia-office [23:21] <Logan_> jorm: also [23:21] <+jorm> Fluffernutter: the feed does NOT live update. [23:21] <@Ironholds> WereSpielChequer: gotcha! I'll see if the devs can work out the issue and fix it [23:21] <Logan_> jorm: I'm getting a console error in Chromium on the page [23:21] <+jorm> but. [23:21] * Maryana (~maryana@ has joined #wikimedia-office [23:22] <+jorm> here's the issues with that. [23:22] <@Ironholds> Logan_: and what is it? :) [23:22] <Logan_> "Uncaught TypeError: Cannot call method 'match' of undefined" [23:22] <+jorm> live updating is going to cause the page to "move" around on you. [23:22] <Utar> @Ironholds: how long to stay New editor ? [23:22] <@Ironholds> Utar: I believe it's non-autoconfirmed [23:22] * awjr (~Adium@wikimedia/awjrichards) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) [23:22] <+jorm> we're thinking more to do something like what twitter does. "There have been 4 new pages; click to refresh" [23:22] <Fluffernutter> jorm: any chance we could make that an opt-in choice, for those of us who prefer it? [23:22] <Logan_> jorm: var matches=s.match(/^(?:([^:]+):)?(.*?)(?:\.(\w{1,5}))?$/) [23:22] <FooBarMartijn> Logan_, I can't currently reproduce that. Coult it be a tampermonkey script? [23:22] <Fluffernutter> hm, that would be ok too [23:22] <Logan_> jorm: that's where the error is, according to Chromium [23:22] <WereSpielChequer> @Ironholds created 20:58, 16 May 2012 - near top of list [23:23] <+jorm> we'll open a bug, logan! thanks! [23:23] * awjr ( has joined #wikimedia-office [23:23] * awjr ( Quit (Changing host) [23:23] * awjr (~Adium@wikimedia/awjrichards) has joined #wikimedia-office [23:23] * +jorm staples awjr to the channel. [23:23] <Logan_> FooBarMartijn: Which browser are you using? [23:23] <awjr> in my dreams [23:23] <awjr> power is going on and off... [23:23] <+jorm> kinky. [23:24] <awjr> lulz [23:24] <FooBarMartijn> Logan_, Chromium 18.0.1025.168 (Developer Build 134367 Linux) Ubuntu 12.04 [23:24] <Logan_> jorm: Well, you could do it a-la Twitter [23:24] <+fabriceflorin> WereSpiegel: Can you clarify what you mean by "rticles tagged for deletion despite the authors having redlinked talkpages"? [23:24] <Utar> @Ironholds: lol, the title row sticking up and down [23:24] <+jorm> that's what we're thinking, Logan. [23:24] <Utar> up and down [23:24] <Utar> up and down [23:24] <Utar> up and down [23:24] <Logan_> jorm: just have a bar at the top: (5) new articles - click here to load [23:24] <+jorm> utar: that's something we're working on. [23:24] <Logan_> FooBarMartijn: haha, same browser and OS [23:24] <+jorm> it has to do with the auto sizing system; there's a performance trade-off and we're experimenting with it. [23:25] <@Ironholds> Utar: you mean the way it follows you? [23:25] <@Ironholds> ah, jorm got it [23:25] <Logan_> FooBarMartijn: refresh the page with the console open [23:25] * awjr (~Adium@wikimedia/awjrichards) Quit (Remote host closed the connection) [23:25] <Utar> @Ironholds: i was skimming around the edge it change the row to which it sticks [23:25] <FooBarMartijn> Logan_, I did. Which options do you have selected? I'm watching oldest, only non-reviewed, none marked for deletion [23:25] <@Ironholds> Utar: ahh [23:26] * matanya (~matanya@wikimedia/matanya) has joined #wikimedia-office [23:26] <Logan_> FooBarMartijn: Showing Namespace: (Article) · Include reviewed · Include deleted [23:26] <@Ironholds> yeah, it does that :( [23:26] <Logan_> FooBarMartijn: and Newest [23:26] <Utar> @Ironholds: i clicked Leave feedback and was puzzled there was no AFT5 ! [23:26] <WereSpielChequer> @Fabrice Informing someone that you've tagged their article for deletion is optional. Not doing so to a complete newbie is bitey. Red linked user talkpage means no-one hass told you your article has been tagged for deletion [23:26] <@Ironholds> Utar: hahaha [23:27] <Logan_> jorm: compliments to all the devs, though; it's really smooth/modern [23:27] <Utar> @Ironholds: when is number of edits and NEW checked? [23:27] <+jorm> that would be Kaldari, Ian, and Benny Situ. [23:27] <FooBarMartijn> Logan_, no errors here. A userscript that assumes something on the page or a tampermonkey script sounds like the most likely candidate (unless jorm can reproduce independently) [23:27] <+jorm> i am merely the designer. [23:27] <Utar> @Ironholds: creating of page/last edit of creator/loadoing feed? [23:27] <Logan_> jorm: ah [23:28] <Logan_> jorm: well, pass it on :P [23:28] <@Ironholds> Utar: that's a benny question :). It okay if I drop an email to him and CC you in? [23:28] <+jorm> will do! [23:28] <+fabriceflorin> WereSpielChequer: Thanks for the clarification. You are absolutely correct that this is a bitty move. We will try to find a way to make sure we address this use case. Really appreciate your bringing it up! [23:28] <FooBarMartijn> hrm, I'll help triage this issue later, and focus on breaking stuff now [23:29] <Fluffernutter> heh [23:29] <+fabriceflorin> In fact, we also want to make it a requirement that people enter a note if they nominate an article for deletion. This would be part of the article curation bar which we are developing for the next deployment, which will be the week of June 4. [23:29] <Logan_> jorm: how about making "Include reviewed/deleted" clickable, so that it's easy to toggle them? [23:29] <Utar> @Ironholds: do it .d [23:30] <FooBarMartijn> it'd be nice if the filter options get tooltips that display some more detail (what exactly is a new user, what is used to check for marked for deletion, etc) [23:30] <+jorm> it is, actually, just under the filters list. [23:30] <+jorm> we put all the filters under one thing because otherwise we'd clutter up the interface. [23:30] <@Ironholds> Utar: cool! [23:30] <+jorm> that's a good idea foobarmartijn. [23:30] * wing4 ( Quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - [23:30] <Logan_> jorm: well, yes, I know; but they should just be clickable links that toggle bck and forth [23:30] <@Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: I like! [23:30] <Utar> @Ironholds: 24 April 2012 new editor there too [23:30] <Athyria> Easy to toggle? I didn't even notice it was there. [23:30] <Logan_> jorm: that wouldn't clutter at all [23:31] <Athyria> More to the point, though, the filter list does funny things when it's open and I scroll. [23:31] <+fabriceflorin> Logan: I believe we plan to add an 'Unreviewed pages' checkmark for filters in the next deployment the week of June 4th. Would that address your proposal? [23:31] <WereSpielChequer> @Fabrice. I've triedmore than once to make informing authors compulsory for those tagging for deletion. Sadly it doesnt have consensus [23:31] <FooBarMartijn> jorm, I actually agree with Logan_ there, especially since I first thought that "include reviewed" meant "click here to include reviewed articles in the result" [23:31] <+jorm> so, first off, how sexy is it that you can filter out (or in) pages marked for deletion? [23:31] <@Ironholds> Utar: Shamanic Story? [23:31] <Utar> Al-Amal Club Stadium [23:31] <@Ironholds> WereSpielChequer: we can probably build something similar into the software [23:31] <Logan_> ALSO [23:31] <Logan_> important issue [23:31] <Logan_> it doesn't work in Lynx [23:31] <Logan_> Template:Fixit [23:31] <Utar> Human Rights Commission of Austin (Texas): created 16:40 so that is the date on the right [23:32] <FooBarMartijn> jorm, were we supposed to do the "wow, you did a really great job" before we're giving our criticisms? If so, looking good jorm, it's really sexy! [23:32] <Athyria> There should be an html5 version. [23:32] * FooBarMartijn can be an awkward penguin like that [23:32] <Athyria> Oh wait, that wouldn't work in lynx either. [23:32] <WereSpielChequer> @Fabrice We have had bots that have informed people that their article has been tagged for deletion, but it needsan admin bot that can tell people that their article was tagged and deleted. Or just deleted. [23:32] <+jorm> you can ALWAYS compliment the work, man. [23:32] <geniice> jorm the red exclamiation mark to me reads as if the page has been flagged as having something actively wrong with it. not just that it hasn't been reviwed [23:32] <+jorm> it won't work in lynx, guys. sorry. [23:32] <@Ironholds> Utar: hmmn, I'm not seeing it [23:32] <+jorm> that is a common point, and probably one worth revisiting, geniice. [23:32] <Utar> @Ironholds: btw, 76564 edits since 2007-09-14 sounds like [23:32] <Logan_> jorm: I kid ;P [23:32] <FooBarMartijn> non-obtrusive javascript is so 2008 [23:32] <@Ironholds> mind screenshotting? :) [23:33] <Athyria> Grey would be a good colour for not reviewed. [23:33] <+fabriceflorin> Hey guys: How do you like the 'infinite scroll' feature that keeps adding more items as you scroll to the bottom of the page? Does it work for you? Would you prefer having a 'Show more pages' at the bottom instead? [23:33] <WereSpielChequer> @Geniice - they are moving that to orange [23:33] <Utar> @Ironholds: btw, 76564 edits since 2007-09-14 sounds like "and lot more before it" [23:33] <geniice> hmm aparently works in opera with the classic skin [23:33] <@Ironholds> yeah >S [23:33] <Logan_> fabriceflorin: isn't it a bit of a copyright issue that it doesn't let you see the bottom of the page? [23:33] <+jorm> the problem is that we want to surface an article's unreviewed status as needing attention. [23:33] <Athyria> fabriceflorin: Would be nice if there were som indication of position with that. [23:33] <Fluffernutter> infinite scroll is so laggy for me, fabriceflorin, that i didn't realize i had it until you just said that [23:33] <FooBarMartijn> fabriceflorin, auto refresh is far more important that infinite scroll [23:33] <+jorm> green/black/grey/blue float to the background in user perspectives. [23:33] * awjr (~Adium@wikimedia/awjrichards) has joined #wikimedia-office [23:33] <Logan_> fabriceflorin: or, rather, that the bottom of the page doesn't have a license, and yet there's article text [23:33] <Utar> @Ironholds: try put comma in there if it means total edits + date of first edit [23:33] <FooBarMartijn> besides, why would I want to infinitely scroll here [23:33] <@Ironholds> Logan_: well, it links to the history page [23:33] <Fluffernutter> what FooBarMartijn said. Pretty pklease? [23:33] <Athyria> Logan_: You can see the bottom when it lags. [23:33] <@Ironholds> this is all we do everywhere else, too :) [23:34] <Logan_> Ironholds: there should be a CC-BY-SA-3.0 thing in the footer, since there's text on the page from articles, imo [23:34] <Athyria> IF it does scroll infinitely, people are likely to expect it to automatically refresh, since they kind of go to gether. [23:34] * badon (~badon@pdpc/supporter/active/badon) has joined #wikimedia-office [23:34] <@Ironholds> Logan_: ahhh. gotcha. [23:34] <Logan_> Ironholds: even though that doesn't even appear to exist in Special:NewPages o_O [23:34] <FooBarMartijn> to pick the 300'th unreviewed article to review without having to navigate? the infinite scroll is a fun little feature, but it's quite low on my 'bang for buck' list [23:34] <Utar> lol [23:34] <+fabriceflorin> Thanks, Fluffernutter, Athyria, FooBarMartijn: Much appreciated. [23:34] <@Ironholds> Logan_: hmn. okay. Mind if I run that past the lawyers first? :) [23:35] <WereSpielChequer> @Jorm uber sexy, - I really like this software [23:35] <Utar> @Ironholds: try making your window smaller, the down sticky row will be up the uppper one [23:35] <Athyria> Ironholds: Never mind the lawyers; it's polite! [23:35] <Thehelpfulone> interesting --- on my Filter list [23:35] <Thehelpfulone> I've got "nominated for deletion" checked [23:35] <+jorm> WereSpielChequer: Thanks! [23:35] <Thehelpfulone> but just above it Showing Namespace: (Article) · Include deleted [23:36] <+fabriceflorin> One more question: Also, would you guys like to see more items listed at a time on the page the first time it loads? [23:36] <Utar> @Ironholds: i would go for the upper though [23:36] <Thehelpfulone> that would suggest I get to see deleted pages? [23:36] <@Ironholds> Utar: that's a jorm question :) [23:36] <@Ironholds> Athyria: agreed :) [23:36] <Athyria> More items as in it doesn't need to add more as quickly? [23:36] <Utar> jorm: i would go for the upper though [23:36] <+jorm> sorry? [23:36] <Utar> +jorm: small your window down [23:36] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: ahhh! [23:37] <@Ironholds> headdesk! I hadn't seen that [23:37] <Utar> +jorm: and see what happens [23:37] <+jorm> oh, yeah. [23:37] * @Ironholds adds to list-of-things-to-fix [23:37] <Thehelpfulone> thanks :) [23:37] <WereSpielChequer> However I'm really curious about the 501 status thing and the warning of dodgy pages. I don't understand why editfilters would be OK and newpage filters not [23:37] <@Ironholds> WereSpielChequer: edit filters are built by the community [23:37] <FooBarMartijn> fabriceflorin, plenty for me [23:37] <+jorm> we're working on that stuff; like i said, there are performance tradeoffs. we're trying to optimize them. [23:37] <@Ironholds> I have a Scheme. This Scheme would maybe let us have a similar thing for NPF [23:37] <@Ironholds> but I need to actually poke people about it first [23:37] * geniice (~chatzilla@wikipedia/geniice) Quit (Quit: ChatZilla [SeaMonkey 2.9.1/20120429011004]) [23:38] <Thehelpfulone> I just want to double check something - I load -- I get articles A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H [23:38] <+jorm> WereSpielChequer: it's kind of weird in there is this blurry line about us (the WMF) being publishers versus editors. [23:38] <+fabriceflorin> Thehelpfulone: You seem to be very aptly named, as so many of your suggestions are quite helpful to us ;o) [23:38] <Utar> +jorm: i am not sure what is the best idea there but having the down row getting over upper one doesnt seem right [23:38] <WereSpielChequer> OK so if the community defined what newpages should be highlighted in red as suspect? [23:38] <Thehelpfulone> if someone else loads -- do they get the same articles, or Articles I, J, K, L, M, N, O? [23:38] <Thehelpfulone> fabriceflorin: I do try. :D [23:38] <+jorm> they get the same articles right now. [23:38] <@Ironholds> WereSpielChequer: then that'd be good, if they merely defined using a tool we built [23:38] <@Ironholds> like the edit filter :) [23:38] <+jorm> we have abandoned the idea of "locking" articles into a specific reviewer queue. [23:38] <Thehelpfulone> jorm: and I presume the intention is different so that we don't get "review conflicts"? [23:39] * Dragonfly6-7 ( has joined #wikimedia-office [23:39] <+fabriceflorin> OK, here's another question: is the amount of info we now show on the list page right for you? would you prefer it if we did not show as much info for each page in the list view to make it more compact? [23:39] <Dragonfly6-7> fabriceflorin - link me again, please [23:39] <@Ironholds> an idea DGG came up with that I quite liked [23:39] <+jorm> we want to avoid reviewer conflicts. there are weird performance issues with auto-selecting a "queue" [23:39] <@Ironholds> would it be useful if we showed whether the articles that are patrolled were autopatrolled or not? [23:39] <Utar> @Ironholds: when you go to oldest, can you review Daniel McBean Farmstead ? [23:39] <Thehelpfulone> Dragonfly6-7: I think? [23:39] <FooBarMartijn> fabriceflorin, I prefer it more compact. The first line of an article gives me nothing personally [23:39] <Thehelpfulone> I don't know if I've said this before, but can we have a "split screen" view? [23:39] <@Ironholds> Utar: lemme guess. The AFT4 box does not appear, and the review button cannot be clicked? [23:40] <Athyria> What FooBarMartijn said. And supposing someone gets popups or something like that working, that would probably suffice for people who do want that. [23:40] <Thehelpfulone> so that we stay on that same page - we have the list of articles on one side and a preview of them on another side to be able to have a quick glance and review [23:40] <Dragonfly6-7> does this apply to all namespaces? [23:40] <Utar> @Ironholds: no, i mean go there and try that [23:40] <@Ironholds> Utar: hmn, okay [23:40] <Thehelpfulone> I'm probably thinking too much from my huggle days, but it is typically an effective system [23:40] <+jorm> you can select the namespace. [23:40] <WereSpielChequer> Knowing whether manually or autopatrolled makes no difference to me, but I think Kudpung wanted it [23:40] <Dragonfly6-7> oh, and will the original format still be available? [23:40] <Utar> @Ironholds: i clicked i want otreview that article and want ot see if you can get there too [23:40] * agkwiki (~AGK@wikipedia/AGK) has joined #wikimedia-office [23:40] <Thehelpfulone> I mean currently if I go back and reload that page there's a short "please wait" delay [23:40] <@Ironholds> Utar: ahh, whether it is locked? [23:40] <+fabriceflorin> How many folks here agree with FooBarMartijn and Athyria that the list page could be more compact? Is this an important enough issue that we should consider giving people the option to show more or less info for each item on the list page? [23:40] <+jorm> Thehelpfulone: that was the ORIGINAL design - to do review in place - but MediaWiki won't let us do it. [23:41] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: performance issues can be fixed :) [23:41] <Utar> @Ironholds: should be second oldest [23:41] <FooBarMartijn> when I look at an item, on my monitor (which is modestly to average sized) I could easily fit all information on all line by the way, which would have my preference [23:41] <Utar> Daniel McBean Farmstead [23:41] <FooBarMartijn> Nënshat (hist) · 3866 bytes · 1 edit · 4 categories could easily be followed by By Kopuku (talk · contribs) · 179 edits since 2012-05-15 · New editor [23:41] <WereSpielChequer> More compact would be better but not at te expense of the first line of the article# [23:41] <Utar> @Ironholds: but if you can't see it/you have the button greyed = good [23:41] <@Ironholds> Utar: Yup, I opened it up and reviwed [23:41] * GerardM- ( has joined #wikimedia-office [23:41] <Utar> @Ironholds: bad then [23:41] <Thehelpfulone> jorm: ah. evil MediaWiki. what about a mouse over preview or it expands the articles contents (so not split screen?) [23:41] <Thehelpfulone> I don't know what popups achieves to that extent? [23:42] <+jorm> the problem has to do with the way that pages get cached. [23:42] <+jorm> popups get stuff via the api. [23:42] <WereSpielChequer> I would be happy to see the clour bar on the left reduced in width [23:42] <@Ironholds> Utar: whyso? [23:42] <Utar> @Ironholds: i should have it "reserved" [23:42] <@Ironholds> WereSpielChequer: good idea! [23:42] <@Ironholds> Utar: there's no reserve feature :(. It evidently got taken out [23:42] <Utar> @Ironholds: gotcha [23:43] * Moonriddengirl (~chatzilla@wikipedia/Moonriddengirl) has joined #wikimedia-office [23:43] <FooBarMartijn> jorm, wouldn't the very 90's solution of a separate frame work for a split screen? [23:43] <Athyria> jorm: Coudl you not implement something popups-like specifically for this, with what would be relevant here? [23:43] * DeltaQuad (~kvirc@wikipedia/DeltaQuad) has joined #wikimedia-office [23:43] <shimgray> fabriceflorin: could you move the "by X" line to wrap behind the title, rather than forcing a new line? it'd save space on wider screens. [23:43] <Utar> what are Key features then? [23:43] <Utar> those still in development [23:43] <+jorm> Athyria: yes, but the question is how much value, etc. [23:43] <+jorm> FooBarMartijn: no. we have security problems with that. [23:43] <FooBarMartijn> ah, ok [23:43] <Logan_> Ew, don't even mention frames. :P [23:44] <Athyria> How much value does the first line of the article have? [23:44] <+fabriceflorin> fabriceflorin: I personally think that we are showing the right amount of information on the list page, because I think it is great to see the first line of the article, which it's intended to do (there is still a bug now). But we wanted to get your thoughts on this issue, to see if a lot of folks feel strongly on this issue. Playing devil's advocate ;o) [23:44] <Logan_> fabriceflorin: talking to yourself, eh? ;p [23:44] <Utar> does 100+ edits mean 100 too :D ? [23:44] <+jorm> jorm: i think fabrice is talking to himself. [23:44] <+jorm> jorm: yeah, i agree. [23:44] <+fabriceflorin> jorm: this won't be the first time ;o) [23:45] <Dragonfly6-7> what about the pre-existing patrol tools that have been created? [23:45] <@Ironholds> Utar: the curation toolbar, a mark-as-unreviewed button [23:45] <+jorm> jorm: we were talking outloud! [23:45] <Logan_> Dragonfly6-7: Such as? [23:45] <@Ironholds> Dragonfly6-7: depending on the tool, they should work with it [23:45] <WereSpielChequer> date and time of article creation doesn't need to be in large bold font, it is one of the least important bits of info [23:45] <+jorm> Dragonfly6-7: which tools are we talking about? [23:45] <Dragonfly6-7> jorm - hold on a moment, I'll get you the URLs [23:45] <Dragonfly6-7> some that MrZ-man made for me [23:45] <Thehelpfulone> Ironholds: the filtering for "were created by bots" in the article namespace shows me nothing [23:45] <@Ironholds> shimgray: PM? [23:45] <Thehelpfulone> ah ok, it's just article namespace it works for other ones [23:45] <Dragonfly6-7> one that would be useful is "patrol all articles by this user" [23:45] <Logan_> Dragonfly6-7: if they're hacks of Special:NewPages, then they won't work, most likely [23:45] <+jorm> probable bug. this is seriously beta software. [23:46] <+fabriceflorin> One more question: are any of you guys using the 'Review' button to mark articles as reviewed/patrolled? Just curious, we're seeing a lot of green posts on the list, wanted to find out if it's because you are using the 'mark as reviewed' tool. [23:46] <+jorm> i believe there is a "by user" filter. [23:46] * GerardM- ( Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [23:46] <Utar> @Ironholds: there was also some wizard for creating articles it looks like now? [23:46] <Dragonfly6-7> [23:46] <@Ironholds> Dragonfly6-7; like Special:Nuke for patrolling? [23:46] <Dragonfly6-7> there we go [23:46] <Dragonfly6-7> Ironholds - I suppose. [23:46] <@Ironholds> Utar: the article wizard? It should be the same :) [23:46] <+jorm> OH YEAH! [23:46] <+jorm> I forgot about another bit of sexy! [23:46] <Thehelpfulone> is there much value in having a created by bots option jorm / Ironholds? [23:46] <shimgray> fabriceflorin: yes :-) I thought we were expected ti... [23:46] <Athyria> How do you determine what are bots? [23:46] <+jorm> check it out. [23:46] <Thehelpfulone> those edits will be autopatrolled anyways [23:46] <+jorm> you use this tool, and you get put into a "curation mode" [23:47] <Thehelpfulone> curation mode? [23:47] <+jorm> so the "mark as reviewed" link is going to be there even if you don't open the link from the tool. [23:47] <Logan_> jorm: shouldn't it be "mark as triaged?" [23:47] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: that's a good point, actually [23:47] <Logan_> since it's, well, NPT? [23:47] <+jorm> lasts for a day, unless you close it out (which you can't do yet, but will be able to when the curation toolbar gets made) [23:47] <FooBarMartijn> fabriceflorin, yeah, I'm actively patrolling [23:47] <@Ironholds> I'll bring it up on the talkpage [23:47] <Dragonfly6-7> jorm - yes, that's one of the tools I already have [23:47] <Thehelpfulone> thanks [23:47] <+jorm> we're going with "mark as reviewed" [23:47] <@Ironholds> Logan_: Special:NewPagesFeed :). Name change. [23:47] <Logan_> ah [23:47] <+fabriceflorin> shimgray: You are definitely encouraged to use the tool, it's music to our ears ;o) Note that in the next deployment, you will have a really nice 'curation bar' on the article, which will make it even easier to review articles: [23:47] <Athyria> So now we're marking them as fed? [23:48] <Logan_> mark as fed [23:48] <Thehelpfulone> and also, what if I want to look at pages that are only reviewed? I know it kind of defeats the purpose of NewPagesFeed - but this current setup means I see the unreviewed ones whether I want to or not [23:48] <Athyria> Is the curation thing up yet? [23:48] <Logan_> Athyria: there should be a food animation [23:48] * Athyria eats Logan_. [23:48] <+jorm> Thehelpfulone: that's actually in the works. [23:48] <+jorm> Athyria: no, it's in development right now. [23:48] <Athyria> Mmkay. [23:48] <Logan_> jorm: also [23:48] <Logan_> the Curation Bar is supposed to "replace Twinkle" [23:49] <Utar> @Ironholds: important note: who can review? [23:49] <+jorm> i wouldn't say "replace" [23:49] <WereSpielChequer> I don't use the review box, I just click on the article name. Does te review box do anything differennt, is it just clutter? [23:49] <Logan_> will the community be able to suggest features all the time, as they can with Twinkle? [23:49] <+jorm> but more "be a different tool" [23:49] <Logan_> jorm: well, that's what the page says [23:49] <@Ironholds> Utar: I believe it's "anyone autoconfirmed" [23:49] <@Ironholds> we do have a bug that you can patrol your own pages [23:49] <@Ironholds> this we be fixing [23:49] <+jorm> i wouldn't call it clutter. it's a "call to action" [23:49] <@Ironholds> Logan_: as much as possible will be built into the mediawiki namespace [23:49] <@Ironholds> so you'll be able to alter some things [23:49] <Logan_> well, not me [23:49] <Logan_> because of you [23:49] <+jorm> Logan: our plan with the curation toolbar is that hte configuration of it will be set by the community. [23:49] <Logan_> moving on [23:49] <+fabriceflorin> Athyria: We will have a first version of the curation toolbar the week of June 4th. It is likely to include the 'Page Info' and 'Tag' panels first. If we are lucky, we may get another panel or so by then. The rest of the curation toolbar will be deployed a week later. [23:50] <Logan_> Ironholds: ;P [23:50] * rolphology ( has joined #wikimedia-office [23:50] <Sven_Manguard> So now I'm seeing the Patrolled or Mark as Patrolled on all pages, including things in the Wikipedia namespace. That's bad/ [23:50] <@Ironholds> note that fabriceflorin's proposed date is just that; a proposed date [23:50] <@Ironholds> Sven_Manguard: known known :). We're handling it [23:50] <Utar> +jorm: that thing "don§t use \br infront of name of creator" would be better in personal settings than automatic [23:50] <Thehelpfulone> am I correct in presuming that autopatrolled edits will not show up on NewPagesFeed? [23:50] <Dragonfly6-7> Sven_Manguard - it applies to all namesapces. [23:50] <+jorm> yeah; we have a lot of stuff in the air over the next several weeks. [23:51] <WereSpielChequer> OK but for those of us who are used to clicking the article name can we have the option to not display that box and get more articles on the screen? [23:51] <@Ironholds> Dragonfly6-7: they will, but they'll be, well, marked as patrols [23:51] <@Ironholds> WereSpielChequer: that's an interesting idea [23:51] <@Ironholds> I think we'll have to discuss internally how much customisation we'll include [23:51] <@Ironholds> but I've logged your idea as one to discuss if the answer is "lots" :) [23:51] <+fabriceflorin> Ironholds is right. We can never be absolutely sure about dates, but it's looking pretty good right now that we will have a first version of the curation toolbar in the next deployment. [23:51] * StevenW (~swalling@wikimedia/steven-walling) Quit [23:52] <+fabriceflorin> WereSpielChequer: The article name and the 'Review' button do the same thing, as you guessed correctly. [23:52] <Utar> @Ironholds: ha [23:52] <Utar> @Ironholds: when you chnage filter, should Average: less than one day, oldest: 748 days change? [23:52] <@Ironholds> Utar: ahh, good point! [23:53] <Dragonfly6-7> I was away. What's the difference between "triaged" and "reviewed" and "patrolled" ? [23:53] <@Ironholds> Dragonfly6-7: same arsehole, different toilet, to use a football phrase [23:53] <+fabriceflorin> So what are your overall impressions about this New Pages Feed? Is it an improvement over Special:NewPages or not? What do you like about it? What do you not like about it? [23:53] <@Ironholds> they're much the same thing, just different names [23:53] <Dragonfly6-7> fabriceflorin - does this support different skins? [23:53] <Utar> @Ironholds: best it is visible when No pages match your criteria. [23:53] <+jorm> it should. [23:53] <Utar> @Ironholds: still 748 is oldest one [23:54] <WereSpielChequer> Much as I like calls to action, I'm guessing that anyone using that page is already intending action [23:54] <@Ironholds> it should support vector and monobook [23:54] <@Ironholds> anything else is a happy accident :) [23:54] <+jorm> well. [23:54] <+jorm> about that. [23:54] <+jorm> one of the goals of this entire project is to teach new users how to patrol. [23:54] <+jorm> so cues are important. [23:54] <Dragonfly6-7> *Does* it support other skins? [23:54] <+fabriceflorin> Dragonfly6-7: It should support different skins, at least Vector and Monobook. We will check the other skins shortly, to make sure they work as well. [23:54] <Dragonfly6-7> Thank you. [23:55] * Dragonfly6-7 uses Classic, because the other skins are ugly. [23:55] <+jorm> i don't know how extensively it has been tested in things like classic and chick. [23:55] <FooBarMartijn> fabriceflorin, IMO it's certainly a project 1. with much promise, 2. is already at least as usefull as special:newpages, 3. with many bugs, 4. with many opportunities for improvement [23:55] <+fabriceflorin> … or that the other skiins would offer graceful degradation, at the very least ;o) [23:55] <+jorm> sometimes the problem with supporting other skins is that it may increase development time significantly. [23:56] <WereSpielChequer> @Jorm, We need new patrollers, but I wouldn't suggest this as an activity for new users [23:56] <@Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: you've made jorm an incredibly happy man [23:56] <+fabriceflorin> FooBarMartijn: Thanks for your answer. We are encouraged by your response. [23:56] <+jorm> well, i meant "new patrollers" over "new users" [23:56] <Utar> +jorm: can those filters Were created be rather checkboxed? [23:56] <Utar> than radiobuttuns [23:56] <+jorm> the radio button thing. okay. [23:56] <+jorm> so, the problem here is performance. [23:56] <+jorm> we had them as checkboxes but the queries were taking *hours* to complete. [23:56] <Utar> to complicate database questions? [23:57] <+jorm> if we set them as radio buttons they happen almost instantly. [23:57] <+jorm> exactly that. [23:57] <+fabriceflorin> FooBarMartijn: We still have a couple months of work to do, as you point out, but we hope to deliver as superior experience once we get all the kinks sorted out. The fact that you find the project promising is encouraging us in that direction, thank you. [23:57] <Dragonfly6-7> fabriceflorin - please clarify what you mean by "graceful degradation" [23:57] <Utar> intersting, ok [23:57] <FooBarMartijn> fabriceflorin, thanks for your courtous reply. We are encouraged as a member of the community, and get the feeling our opinions are being heard [23:57] <+jorm> man, you wouldn't believe how many hours i've spent studying how you guys patrol. [23:57] <@Ironholds> Dragonfly6-7: the idea that if it breaks, it breaks in such a way as to not leave ERROR IN LINE 355555 ABORT ABORT OUT OF CHEESE REDO UNIVERSE FROM START [23:57] <@Ironholds> printed 300 times end to end over the screen [23:58] <@Ironholds> that would be ungraceful ;p [23:58] <Utar> FooBarMartijn: at least the feeling [23:58] <+jorm> at one point, i was having dreams about page patrolling. [23:58] <@Ironholds> haha [23:58] <@Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: you're welcome :P [23:58] <Athyria> jorm, you poor thing. [23:58] <FooBarMartijn> Utar, isn't that the whole idea of commoner participation in any field? [23:58] <@Ironholds> I once had a dream in which I was naked and in the SF paddy's day parade. that was...odd. [23:58] <+fabriceflorin> Dragonfly6-7: "Graceful degradation" is a term we use to say that if it is not feasible to make a new app work well on legacy platforms, at the very least we should make it possible for people to use the new app without losing key functionality, even if it doesn't look as pretty. [23:58] <Utar> @Ironholds: Hex at UU is sometimes out of cheese, actually [23:59] <@Ironholds> Utar: exactly the reference! [23:59] <@Ironholds> you win a point [23:59] <Utar> ha [23:59] <@Ironholds> "out of cheese error, redo universe from start" [23:59] <RoanKattouw> Ironholds: If you were indeed part of this year's St Patrick's Day parade, please come over here and bring a knife so I can stab you [23:59] <Utar> @Ironholds: I am just in the middle of Intersting times [23:59] <@Ironholds> RoanKattouw: I wasn't, although I did see the most SFian thing ever there [23:59] * RoanKattouw got stuck in traffic on Mission Street for an hour trying to return a rental car [23:59] <@Ironholds> a man with a beer in one hand, his parts in the other, peeing in the middle of the road [23:59] <rolphology> Now Pirates... [23:59] <@Ironholds> while a policeman watched with a look of "I've seen so much worse stuff today" [23:59] <RoanKattouw> hehe [23:59] <Dragonfly6-7> tiven that I do more NPP than pretty much anyone else, one would think that perhaps my opinions might matter Session Time: Thu May 17 00:00:00 2012 [00:00] <@Ironholds> and on that (disturbing) note, I really have to go, I'm afraid :( [00:00] <@Ironholds> everything is logged; if you have other questions, email me, ask fabriceflorin/the jorm [00:00] <FooBarMartijn> Ironholds, what, there is lights out at midnight on your boat? [00:00] <Utar> @Ironholds: that's becuase that talking about peeing [00:00] <+jorm> so, that's our hour, guys. [00:00] <@Ironholds> FooBarMartijn: after 7 hours installing new Swift servers and squids, yep [00:01] <+jorm> as usual, i'll be around to answer questions, and will hang out here for a while. [00:01] <+jorm> but we're 'formally' done. [00:01] <+fabriceflorin> I have to go, but would like to thank you all for your incredibly helpful comments and suggestions! [00:01] <Utar> @Ironholds: are youinstalling squids around your boat? [00:01] <@Ironholds> Utar: naw, the datacentre [00:01] <@Ironholds> anyway. thank you so much, all :) [00:01] * linSmith ( Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) [00:01] <WereSpielChequer> @Jorm Sounds like Classic is as important as vextor and Monobook [00:01] <+jorm> please, please, PLEASE leave comments on our talk page. [00:01] <@Ironholds> despite having achey feet and head pain this is genuinely the best session I've had in 6 months [00:01] <+jorm> WereSpielChequer: if only for dragonfly67! heh. [00:01] <@Ironholds> and Utar can confirm we do a LOT of sessions :P [00:01] * @Ironholds waves, departs Session Close: Thu May 17 00:01:58 2012