IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-07-20b

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[20:02] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: yo :). Here for t'session?
[20:02] <@Ironholds> oh god, "yo"? too much time with James F. Next I'll be calling things "groovy".
[20:03] <@Ironholds> I've yet to be convinced he's not a 60s child who has just aged well.
[20:03] <AzaToth> Ironholds: mostly interested what yee actually mean by "session"
[20:03] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: the idea was "we sit here dealing with questions", but it seems I've overestimated the fallout from deployment
[20:03] <@Ironholds> which I'm really not complaining about ;p
[20:04] <Isarra> It was deployed?
[20:04] <@Ironholds> honestly, I expected a lot more people wanting to shout at me than there actually are. Although I'm warned my housemate may come along to troll.
[20:04] <@Ironholds> Isarra: on 5 percent of articles. Remember the centralnotice banner you hated so?
[20:04] <Isarra> Oh, right.
[20:04] <AzaToth> not 10%?
[20:04] <Isarra> It still has that shadow.
[20:04] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: it was going to be 10 percent, but unfortunately not yet.
[20:04] <@Ironholds> that's (I think) going to happen Monday or Tuesday.
[20:05] <AzaToth> I only see the blody "Participate in the proposal for a new Wikimedia Foundation travel guide project!" baqnner atm
[20:05] * jvandavier (~jvandavie@wikimedia/jvandavier) has joined #wikimedia-office
[20:05] <@Ironholds> and after that we twiddle our thumbs while the engineering team make it scale
[20:05] <@Ironholds> Apparently deploying it to 100 percent at the moment would make everything asplode
[20:05] <Isarra> Cool.
[20:05] <AzaToth> Ironholds: hehe
[20:05] <tommorris> Ironholds: you should so host it in teh cloud. it fixes all problems, I'm told.
[20:05] <Isarra> I can't say I've seen any asplosions here.
[20:07] <@Ironholds> tommorris: indeed! the cloud being a new thing, of course
[20:07] <AzaToth> Ironholds: I see that the CN isn't visible on all pageviews
[20:07] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: oh?
[20:08] <StevenW> Fire support? [12:02:00] <@Ironholds> StevenW: you the fire support? :p
[20:09] * IShadowed_ (~IShadowed@wikimedia/IShadowed) has joined #wikimedia-office
[20:09] <@Ironholds> StevenW: oh, Howie mentioned he'd asked you or maryana or whatnot to come along in case I had trouble
[20:09] <@Ironholds> (to office hours)
[20:09] <StevenW> ah
[20:09] <AzaToth> Ironholds: reloading a random article... I've reloaded,_Kentucky 20 times now
[20:09] <StevenW> in that case...
[20:09] <@Ironholds> it seems I've substantially overestimated the amount of RAAAARGH about the tool, though
[20:09] <@Ironholds> AzaToth; ooh. that's really weird.
[20:10] <@Ironholds> StevenW: I think I should be fine; just checking :)
[20:10] <AzaToth> have gotten AFT 3 times, and travel guide 4 times
[20:10] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: and you're seeing it everywhere else?
[20:10] <AzaToth> rest have ben nothing
[20:10] * IShadowed (~IShadowed@wikimedia/IShadowed) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[20:10] <AzaToth> been*
[20:10] * IShadowed_ is now known as IShadowed
[20:10] <AzaToth> Ironholds: it shows up on random times on random pages on random pageloads
[20:11] <AzaToth> Ironholds: I would say the notice is visible 5% of all pageloads
[20:11] <@Ironholds> oh dear.
[20:11] <@Ironholds> okay, this may explain the lack of rargh.
[20:11] <Isarra> Is it javascript-related?
[20:11] <AzaToth> probably
[20:12] <@Ironholds> and there was me hoping it was because everyone loved the tool
[20:12] <AzaToth> highly probable
[20:12] <@Ironholds> Isarra: I believe so?
[20:12] <Isarra> See, THIS is why I love wikis. Devs do things in javascript and then all manner of weird stuff happens.
[20:12] <AzaToth> I thought you had scrapped the tool as the notice was gone ?
[20:12] <@Ironholds> hee
[20:13] <@Ironholds> can anyone else replicate AzaToth's issue?
[20:13] <@Ironholds> Isarra, tommorris?
[20:13] <Isarra> I dismissed the thing on this browser, so hell if I know.
[20:13] * gwicke_ is now known as gwicke
[20:13] <tommorris> Sorry, I'm only half paying attention.
[20:13] <AzaToth> Ironholds: also, I think the target group who actually uses the tool™, is not the same group that will join IRC
[20:14] <AzaToth> Isarra: drop cookies
[20:14] <Isarra> My browser just froze.
[20:14] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: that's also true
[20:14] <@Ironholds> on a similar subject - any/all of you familiar with my strategy project doohick?
[20:14] <Isarra> Ah, travel guide one showed up.
[20:14] <AzaToth> Ironholds: you should have a inline irc client on
[20:14] <Isarra> Also, it doesn't help that the banner is the very last thing on the page to load.
[20:14] <AzaToth> Ironholds: doohick?
[20:15] <AzaToth> sounds dirty
[20:15] <Isarra> So anything with a bunch of js elsewhere will take particularly long...
[20:15] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: ooh, it should have that. damn!
[20:15] <@Ironholds> I thought that link loaded!
[20:15] <AzaToth> Isarra: true
[20:15] <@Ironholds> okay, things to fix...
[20:15] <@Ironholds> AzaToth:
[20:15] <AzaToth> most people have scrolled of the top of the page when the notice might load
[20:15] <@Ironholds> I'm going to do a proper evaluation of how engagement has worked/not worked over the last ~9 months.
[20:15] <Isarra> This time nothing showed up.
[20:15] <@Ironholds> interviews, public report editors will contribute to, the works
[20:15] <@Ironholds> okay, thanks both of ya.
[20:15] <Isarra> Travel guide...
[20:16] <@Ironholds> I'm poking our fundraising engineerer
[20:16] <Isarra> Feedback tool...
[20:16] <AzaToth> Isarra: heh
[20:16] <Isarra> Travel guide...
[20:16] <Isarra> Feedback tool...
[20:16] * awjr_mtg is now known as awjr_lunch
[20:16] <@Ironholds> Isarra: do you mean both are showing up together, or it's one-or-the-other?
[20:16] <Isarra> Travel guide...
[20:16] <AzaToth> Ironholds: it's one or the other
[20:16] <Isarra> One or the other or nothing.
[20:16] <AzaToth> never both
[20:17] <Isarra> Travel guide one just looks dumb.
[20:17] <Isarra> Looks like a sitenotice, except for some reason it's not centered and it's in a box.
[20:17] * AzaToth wonders how a trave guide prop could end up in cn
[20:17] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: oh buggeration
[20:18] <AzaToth> Isarra: the onle use I have for that box is to see all JS errors spamming
[20:18] <@Ironholds> (I'm having that as my last words, I feel)
[20:18] <Isarra> Ironholds: Considering this is a wiki-specific dealy without region bounds, wouldn't a sitenotice have made more sense?
[20:18] <Isarra> It may not be as fancy, but it's also less buggered up than the central notice.
[20:19] <Isarra> I mean that in the best possible way.
[20:19] <AzaToth> dealy?
[20:19] <@Ironholds> this is true
[20:19] <@Ironholds> I'll look into it :)
[20:19] * jayanta (~jayanta@wikimedia/jayantanth) Quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
[20:19] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: britishism. "thing".
[20:19] <AzaToth> ah
[20:19] <Isarra> Dealy?
[20:19] <Isarra> Oh, did Ironholds say that?
[20:19] <AzaToth> you did
[20:19] <@Ironholds> Isarra, no, you did ;p
[20:19] <Isarra> I did?
[20:19] <Isarra> Where?
[20:19] <@Ironholds> he was inquiring as to what it meant
[20:19] <@Ironholds> " Considering this is a wiki-specific dealy "
[20:19] <AzaToth> <Isarra> Ironholds: Considering this is a wiki-specific dealy without region bounds, wouldn't a sitenotice have made more sense?
[20:20] <Isarra> Oh.
[20:20] <Isarra> Right.
[20:20] <Isarra> Yes.
[20:20] <Isarra> That's a britishism?
[20:20] <@Ironholds> okay. So, alternating between the two is fine
[20:20] <@Ironholds> (that's how it's meant to work)
[20:20] * IShadowed (~IShadowed@wikimedia/IShadowed) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[20:20] <@Ironholds> but there are occasions on which neither displays?
[20:20] <AzaToth> Ironholds: often it doesn't display anything for me
[20:20] <Isarra> It also doesn't load until one has scrolled down the page anyway a lot of the time in my experience.
[20:20] <Isarra> Because it's so slow.
[20:21] <Isarra> And yeah, it also fails to show up at all sometimes.
[20:21] <AzaToth> offcourse I have certain "gadgets" that slows js loading down a bit
[20:21] * jayanta (~jayanta@wikimedia/jayantanth) has joined #wikimedia-office
[20:21] <Isarra> The gadgets wouldn't slow things down as much as they do if resourceloader worked properly... but hopefully that will soon be fixed.
[20:22] <Krinkle> what is slowed down?
[20:22] <Krinkle> how does rl make that slower?
[20:22] <@Ironholds> Krinkle: AFT5 CentralNotice takes a while to load
[20:22] <AzaToth> Ironholds: I would recommend creating a notice that, if the page has been scrolled down, a oulldown notice is shown for a couple of seconds at the top of the screen
[20:22] <AzaToth> pulldown*
[20:23] <Krinkle> CentralNotice is up for a major refactor, that's been having issues for years. And RL only exposed that further. The main problem is that it isn't using resourceloader.
[20:23] * @Ironholds nods
[20:23] <AzaToth> Krinkle: while is up to infinity and beyond
[20:23] * Avruch_ (~Me@ has joined #wikimedia-office
[20:23] * Avruch_ (~Me@ Quit (Changing host)
[20:23] * Avruch_ (~Me@wikimedia/Nathan) has joined #wikimedia-office
[20:23] <AzaToth> "while"*
[20:23] <Isarra> So it loads after everything that does use resourceloader?
[20:23] <Krinkle> and used to use a lot of globals, thought that has been improved last I checked.
[20:23] <Krinkle> Isarra: no
[20:23] <@Ironholds> oh dear. Oh well :(
[20:23] <Isarra> No?
[20:24] <Krinkle> Isarra: no
[20:24] <Isarra> So then why does it load after everything else?
[20:24] <AzaToth> no?
[20:24] <Krinkle> it doesn't
[20:24] <AzaToth> it does
[20:24] * alhen (~muso@wikimedia/alhen) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[20:24] <Isarra> It's always the last thing to show up.
[20:24] <AzaToth> the notice is always th last thing that pops up on page load
[20:24] <Krinkle> There is no such thing as "after anything resource loader". ResourceLoader is asynchronous.
[20:24] <AzaToth> if it does pop up
[20:24] <Krinkle> CentralNotice is synchronous and puts it script in a certain place of the page. It simply loads from that position.
[20:25] <Isarra> So it loads after all the stuff that uses resourceloader loads.
[20:25] <Isarra> Better?
[20:25] <Krinkle> No it most certainly does not
[20:25] <@Ironholds> ;p
[20:25] <RoanKattouw> You probably mean "most of the stuff RL loads"
[20:25] <Isarra> Are we using the same meaning of the word 'load'?
[20:25] <RoanKattouw> What do you mean by 'load'?
[20:25] <@Ironholds> guys, it seems like we're bikeshedding a bit unless anyone wants to fix the issue within the next week :P
[20:25] <Isarra> I'm not sure. What does load mean?
[20:26] <Isarra> >.>
[20:26] <Krinkle> By load you can mean "when it is arriving in the client and doing something"
[20:26] <Krinkle> or you can mean the .load() command in RL
[20:26] <Isarra> I mean when it visibly does stuff.
[20:26] <Isarra> It is the last thing to do stuff.
[20:26] <RoanKattouw> Right
[20:26] <Krinkle> okay, then it answer is no, central notice is not "after" RL loads.
[20:26] <RoanKattouw> Which is probably a coincidence more than anything else
[20:26] <Krinkle> it is simulan
[20:27] <Krinkle> simultaneous
[20:27] <Isarra> So it may be a complete coincidence, but the centralnotice banners do do stuff after all the other stuff finishes.
[20:27] * Avruch (~Me@wikimedia/Nathan) Quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[20:27] <RoanKattouw> Right
[20:27] <Krinkle> What CentralNotice could do to fix the jump is to load from the top. But since CentralNotice is (said to be?) slow on the server, they moved it to the bottom so that the article loads first.
[20:28] <Krinkle> Its either one or the other
[20:28] <RoanKattouw> geoiplookup is slow is why
[20:28] <AzaToth> Krinkle: but it's correct to say that the notice loads _after_ people have started to scroll down
[20:28] <RoanKattouw> Yes, that's rigth
[20:28] <@Ironholds> okay, so we can conclude that the problem is with centralnotice
[20:28] <Krinkle> not RL related, RL allows both.
[20:28] <@Ironholds> do people think that, as Isarra suggested, a sitenotice would be a better way forward?
[20:28] <Isarra> So basically cn needs to be faster.
[20:28] <RoanKattouw> Yeah, it'd have to be fixed on the CN side
[20:28] <@Ironholds> I'm afraid it isn't a component I'm familiar with
[20:28] <Isarra> And rl2 will solve other problems.
[20:29] <Isarra> And then I'll have to come up with something new to complain about incessantly.
[20:29] <Krinkle> indeed, RL2 is even less related to central notice because RL2 is about gadgets.
[20:29] <Isarra> Cool.
[20:29] <AzaToth> make the notice show a short screentop pulldown notice if the real notice isn't in view anymore
[20:29] <Isarra> Sitenotices are wiki-specific, rarely used, and show up concurrently (under, I think?) with banners.
[20:30] <Isarra> They are also not fancy and don't do banners well.
[20:30] <AzaToth> (and pulldowns will probably trigger people more)
[20:30] <Isarra> I mean cn banners. For the first thing.
[20:30] <AzaToth> dunno if I have the right word for it
[20:30] <@Ironholds> Isarra: and can't distinguish between logged in and logged out
[20:30] <Isarra> Pulldowns will probably anger the community more.
[20:30] <Isarra> Ironholds: Yes.
[20:30] <@Ironholds> and we'd have to get consensus. sigh.
[20:30] <AzaToth> Isarra: aint that what you want?
[20:30] <@Ironholds> okay, we'll just roll with the impressions we *do* have.
[20:30] <Isarra> But you can make it only show up for logged in or not logged in users, which is kind of cool.
[20:31] <Isarra> But then you have to remember to turn off both things.
[20:31] <Isarra> Which isn't so cool.
[20:31] <@Ironholds> grah. okay, CN it is.
[20:31] <@Ironholds> I blame RoanKattouw for this on general principle
[20:31] <AzaToth> Isarra: the über-bug is still available to force everyone to logout in the pedia
[20:31] <Isarra> AzaToth: I just like to... nevermind.
[20:31] <@Ironholds> it's not even his fault, but he was dumb enough to put his head above the parapets ;p
[20:31] <Isarra> Uber bug?
[20:31] <Isarra> Who what huh eh?
[20:32] * vvv (~vvv@mediawiki/VasilievVV) Quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium
[20:32] <AzaToth> Isarra: an old one
[20:32] <Isarra> Huh.
[20:32] <@Ironholds> guys? I think we may be getting somewhat off the point ;p.
[20:33] <Isarra> Sorry.
[20:33] <@Ironholds> AFT5. Ignoring the banner issues - thoughts? additional feedback? ideas for improvement? questions?
[20:33] <@Ironholds> a deep and existential desire to sing "I am what I am"?
[20:33] <AzaToth> Isarra: you can enforce loading of Special:Logout as an image if you add it to MediaWiki:Wikimedia-copyright
[20:33] <Isarra> Why does the community suck so much?
[20:33] <Isarra> This is a related question.
[20:33] <Isarra> Really.
[20:33] <AzaToth> I filed a bug for that many years ago, but they removed the bug from the bugzilla
[20:33] <@Ironholds> now I get to do a tommorris philosopher thing of "I disagree with the premise" ;p
[20:33] <Isarra> AzaToth: >.<
[20:33] <@Ironholds> the community doesn't particularly suck
[20:33] <Isarra> It doesn't?
[20:33] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: with what rationale?
[20:34] <Isarra> Whatever you've been taking all these years, can I have some?
[20:34] <AzaToth> Ironholds: rationale for?
[20:34] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: removing it
[20:34] <AzaToth> Ironholds: the bug was just gone
[20:34] <@Ironholds> Isarra: alas, insanity doesn't come in pills
[20:34] <AzaToth> vanished
[20:34] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: huh. Okay, I'm going to make some inquiries.
[20:34] <Isarra> You mean they just removed it from bugzilla, where it vanished, or the bug vanished from the software?
[20:34] <@Ironholds> We actually have a dedicated security engineer now. I'll see if people think it's enough of a concern to be dealt with.
[20:35] <AzaToth> Isarra: it was vanished fro mthe bugzilla
[20:35] <Isarra> Ah.
[20:35] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: it may be it's all super-sekret (I can't imagine why, but) - I'll do my best.
[20:35] <AzaToth> Ironholds: as long the Mediawiki:Wikimedia-Copyright allows plain html, it's easy to add enforced logout there
[20:35] <Isarra> Ironholds: They're just allergic to both good design principles and also to aesthetics. It makes me sad.
[20:36] <AzaToth> Ironholds: offcourse it could have been a über secret, but I wonder why it was never "fixed" ?
[20:36] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: alright, I'm throwing it to Chris
[20:36] <AzaToth> rouge admins exists
[20:37] * ori-l is now known as ori-l-away
[20:38] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: mind PMing me your email address so I can bring you in on the conversation?
[20:38] <AzaToth> Ironholds: <img src="" /> should suffice
[20:38] * Isarra applies rouge.
[20:38] * alhen (~muso@wikimedia/alhen) has joined #wikimedia-office
[20:38] <@Ironholds> Chris = Chris Steipp, dedicated security engineer
[20:38] <@Ironholds> he rocks
[20:38] * jayanta (~jayanta@wikimedia/jayantanth) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[20:38] <@Ironholds> this has turned into a sort of engineering agony aunt column, it seems ;p
[20:38] <AzaToth> Ironholds: me@gmail
[20:38] <AzaToth> hehe
[20:39] <Isarra> I'm sorry.
[20:39] <AzaToth> Ironholds: anyways
[20:39] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: got it! :p
[20:39] <AzaToth> Ironholds: are yeew going to embrace, extend, replace, or extinguish TW?
[20:40] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: I like to think of it as augmenting. So, the new software will have a dedicated replacement built in. But.
[20:40] <Isarra> I miss twinkle when going to es.
[20:40] <@Ironholds> (1) this will not do a lot of the twinkle-related functions like easy rollback in diff windows
[20:40] <Isarra> They do have it, but it's just not the same.
[20:40] <@Ironholds> (2) there'll be no obligation to not just keep using Special:NewPages
[20:40] <AzaToth> Isarra: probably an older version
[20:40] <@Ironholds> personally I plan to keep Twinkle installed, because it does a lot of icky things very nicely
[20:40] <Isarra> They also just don't have the templating to back it up.
[20:40] <AzaToth> true
[20:42] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: check yer inbox.
[20:43] * jayanta (~jayanta@wikimedia/jayantanth) has joined #wikimedia-office
[20:44] <@Ironholds> any other gripes about the software for Ironholds' half hour? Preference, obviously, given to the tool we're here to discuss :P
[20:45] <AzaToth> Ironholds: says "This acts as a fully supported replacement for Twinkle", says "This is fully compatible with twinkle", and says "This interface must work with Twinkle"
[20:45] * Thehelpfulone (~Helper@wikimedia/Thehelpfulone) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[20:46] <Isarra> Documentation is hard.
[20:46] <Isarra> Perhaps you can update it with what has been learned here.
[20:46] * oO (~tanvir@wikimedia/wikitanvir) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[20:46] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: oh lloyd.
[20:46] <@Ironholds> this is the problem with documentation
[20:46] <AzaToth> ?
[20:46] <@Ironholds> you have to duplicate it over a bajillion venues
[20:47] <Isarra> And then nobody reads it anyway.
[20:47] <@Ironholds> somewhere there's a page explaining we're moving away from UseModWiki and warning people to get ready.
[20:47] <@Ironholds> I stake my entire personal fortune on it
[20:47] <@Ironholds> (this consists of 32p and a bag of toffee popcorn)
[20:47] <Isarra> Ooo, I wants!
[20:48] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: amended ;p
[20:48] * IShadowed (~IShadowed@wikimedia/IShadowed) has joined #wikimedia-office
[20:49] <AzaToth> Ironholds: hahaha
[20:50] <AzaToth> Ironholds: I'm still waiting for phase4
[20:50] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: phase 4?
[20:50] <@Ironholds> IShadowed: greetings
[20:50] <AzaToth> Ironholds: MW is currently "phase3"
[20:50] <@Ironholds> ahh
[20:51] <@Ironholds> is Phase 4 the one with the unicorns?
[20:51] <IShadowed> hi Ironholds
[20:51] <IShadowed> whyfor ping
[20:51] <AzaToth>
[20:51] <AzaToth> "The Phase III software is robust, and under active development. Many more features have been, and are expected to be, added to the Phase III software, together with bug fixes and improvements in stability. You are encouraged to submit bug reports."
[20:51] <AzaToth> Ironholds: replied*
[20:51] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: I saw! you could always test in your userspace
[20:52] <@Ironholds> "tested. Can't access the wiki. Success!"
[20:52] <AzaToth> Ironholds: heh
[20:52] <Danny_B|backup> Ironholds: next is phase p actually
[20:52] <AzaToth> Danny_B|backup: this aint TeX
[20:52] <AzaToth> MIT
[20:52] <AzaToth> MediaWiki aint TeX
[20:53] <AzaToth> isn't*
[20:53] <AzaToth> damn, can't speak
[20:53] <AzaToth> Ironholds: which one did you amend?
[20:53] * jayanta (~jayanta@wikimedia/jayantanth) Quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[20:53] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: one of them
[20:53] <@Ironholds> ;p
[20:53] <@Ironholds> (the first one)
[20:54] <AzaToth> hehe
[20:54] <AzaToth> Ironholds: well, you are free to cleanup the TW UI if you want
[20:55] * jayanta (~jayanta@wikimedia/jayantanth) has joined #wikimedia-office
[20:55] * KP13 (~Kingpin13@Wikipedia/Kingpin13) has joined #wikimedia-office
[20:55] <AzaToth> Ironholds:
[20:55] * Kingpin13 (~Kingpin13@Wikipedia/Kingpin13) Quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[20:56] * Thehelpfulone (~Helper@wikimedia/Thehelpfulone) has joined #wikimedia-office
[20:57] * RoanKattouw is now known as RoanKattouw_away
[20:58] * alhen is now known as ribbit
[20:59] <@Ironholds> AzaToth: like I'd know how ;P
[20:59] <@Ironholds> alright; I declare this office hours session *over*! I'll be back in...lord, two hours, for another one.
[20:59] <@Ironholds> thanks to both :)
Session Close: Fri Jul 20 20:59:43 2012