IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-08-02
|Thursday||2012-08-2||21:00 UTC until 22:00 UTC||#wikimedia-office||Siko Bouterse and Wikimedia Fellows||General updates and questions about Wikimedia Fellowship Programs and projects hosted by the fellows|
(Timestamps are in UTC)
[21:00:38] <Tanvir> ******** LOGGING STARTS **********
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[21:01:02] <sikob> want to go project by project, give folks a chance to discuss on a given topics, then move along to the next one?
[21:01:12] <J-Mo> sounds good
[21:01:16] <Tanvir> +1
[21:01:27] <uwanja_> 1+
[21:01:44] <Ocaasi> first victim?
[21:01:50] <sikob> Pete, you willing?
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[21:02:01] <the-wub> sure :)
[21:02:09] <sikob> lets talk about the help page redesign project with pete :-)
[21:02:25] <the-wub> So, my project is working on fixing Wikipedia's broken help pages
[21:03:07] <the-wub> The aim is to both work with the exisitng community project trying to improve them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_Project (which you should all totally join :)
[21:03:40] * SarahStierch is signed up
[21:03:44] <sikob> are folks generally familiar with the project? questions/comments/feedback for pete?
[21:04:02] <Ocaasi> how are you approaching getting community approval for the redesign?
[21:04:02] <the-wub> and also to use my time to take a more data-driven approach, with surveys and usability tests to back up our new designs
[21:04:47] <the-wub> Great question Ocaasi :) The plan is to come up with some new designs myself / with the WMF design experts first
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[21:05:12] <the-wub> as we've often seen design by committe in the community produce not great results
[21:05:30] <Fluffernutter> that's a bit of an understatement :D
[21:05:42] <the-wub> And then bring these forward to the community for refinement, and hopefully see if they support them
[21:05:46] * SarahStierch grins at Fluffernutter
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[21:06:23] <the-wub> Also as I said, I'm planning to do some in-person usability tests on the new designs (and already have done on the old pages)
[21:06:44] <Ocaasi> so is getting WMF design help easier than getting WMF developer help??
[21:06:45] <the-wub> So the findings from that will help make a final decision
[21:06:49] <Fluffernutter> out of curiosity, the-wub, have you had a look at the "oh fuck" diagram Ironholds did of help pages, a while back?
[21:07:13] <the-wub> Fluffernutter: Yep, it's terrifying and was one of my Wikimania slides :)
[21:07:48] <the-wub> https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Wikimania_2012_-_Help_pages_fellowship.pdf&page=4
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[21:07:56] <sikob> besides usability tests, you're also hoping to gather feedback from readers of the pages too with an input form of some kind, right pete? though some of that has been stalled so far
[21:07:56] <the-wub> for anyone who hasn't seen it
[21:08:28] <sikob> Ocassi: yes, we're a bit less squeezed on design these days
[21:08:59] <the-wub> Yes sikob, that was another aspect. We have some existing feedback methods for help pages, I'm hoping to get some slightly improved ones rolled out more widely
[21:10:00] <sikob> other questions/comments on help, or should we move to another project?
[21:10:18] <Ocaasi> does AFT5 show up on any help pages?
[21:10:27] <Ocaasi> (article feedback tool)
[21:10:39] * Tanvir is interested in few scripts that Pete used in his project. :-)
[21:10:39] <the-wub> Ocaasi: Not yet, but that's a possibility for the future :)
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[21:12:04] <sikob> we're trying to get it prioritized in the AFT pipeline, the French Wikipedians are interested in using it for help too so that would be good
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[21:12:52] <the-wub> Any more questions?
[21:12:58] <sikob> its getting late in tanvir's world, suggest we move to his small wiki editor engagement project as next topic, if not
[21:13:15] <Tanvir> I have no hurry. Not feeling sleepy at all. :-)
[21:13:43] <sikob> well, can you go next anyway? :-)
[21:14:02] <Tanvir> I think so. People know where to reach Pete in further queries.
[21:14:21] <Tanvir> So, who want to go next?
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[21:14:39] <sikob> you should go next!!!
[21:14:44] <SarahStierch> TANVIR TANVIR TANVIR
[21:14:46] * SarahStierch cheers
[21:14:47] <sikob> since we missed you at wikimania and all
[21:14:48] <jsoby> go Tanvir !
[21:14:49] <Tonmoy> Tanvir, it's better you go next
[21:14:50] <Tanvir> Okay, /me steps forward.
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[21:15:13] <Tanvir> I am working on Small Wiki Editor Engagement Project, aka SWEEP.
[21:15:19] <Tanvir> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Small_Wiki_Editor_Engagement_Project <-- The portal.
[21:15:40] <SarahStierch> wiki is down so..
[21:15:44] <SarahStierch> save that in your bookmarks!!
[21:16:05] <Krinkle> Labs is still up :P
[21:16:09] <Krinkle> So is Gerrit
[21:16:09] <the-wub> oh good, it's not just me then...
[21:16:23] <Krinkle> but the rest (including www. portals) is down
[21:16:32] <SarahStierch> so Tanvir…even if we can't see it, please continue :)
[21:16:32] <Tanvir> We are currently working on Bangla Wikipedia (bn.wikipedia.org). And over the first 2 months, we mostly spent time with discussing things with community. Also in last month we ran survey to get feedback from readers.
[21:17:00] <Tanvir> Sad to see that you can't see. But there are link to our reports on the report page.
[21:17:15] <sikob> can you tell us about 1 or 2 things you've learned so far?
[21:17:21] <SarahStierch> Any stand out feedback bits to share?
[21:17:29] <sikob> and maybe what experiment you're thinking about starting with next?
[21:18:13] <Tanvir> Firstly, we figured out that motivation and awareness is the major obstacles against editor engagement in Bangla Wikipedia.
[21:18:46] <Tanvir> Although generally people complains about issues like, editor panel, lack of help pages, complex system, etc.
[21:19:15] <SarahStierch> Things like this make realize it isn't a gendered situation - it's a universal situation!
[21:19:31] <Tanvir> They are certainly countable problems to solve. But local community thinks that way.
[21:19:41] <Ocaasi> yes, learning Wikipedia is awful for everyone!
[21:19:47] <Tanvir> I wish you could see the report to ask me more questions.
[21:20:07] <sikob> tanvir, something that stood out for me in your survey results was that 71.2% of readers wanted more step-by-step help (tutorials) to get them started contributing
[21:20:18] <Tanvir> Aye. I am getting to it.
[21:20:27] <sikob> oh sorry :-)
[21:20:28] <SarahStierch> I think it's up again.
[21:20:33] <the-wub> Tutorials *are* awesome :)
[21:20:46] <Tanvir> So, after discussing with the on-wiki community, we moved to know what our readers think. And we go pretty amazing responses from them.
[21:21:13] <Ziko> (When I talk to Wikipedians about tutorials and text books, and teaching aids in general, they often look at me as if I came from Outer Space.)
[21:21:17] <Tanvir> We ran a survey for 2 weeks, and we got 1844 reposes (1107 were full) which we did not expect in 2 weeks.
[21:21:20] <SarahStierch> sounds like Tanvir and the-wub have some cross over potential :D
[21:21:25] <SarahStierch> WOW
[21:21:29] <SarahStierch> that's a huge response rate.
[21:21:39] <Tanvir> Most of them were male. Only 5.6% were female.
[21:21:53] <J-Mo> yikes
[21:21:54] <sikob> Ziko: why do you think that is?
[21:21:57] <Tanvir> The survey report should be up very soon (in one or two days at most).
[21:22:08] <Tanvir> But I will share some quick points in advance.
[21:22:43] <SarahStierch> Thanks for sharing the gender statistics. That's actually a decent number compared to other languages..so..
[21:22:58] <Ziko> sikob: experienced wikipedians often don't see how difficult it is to edit. they are not conscious about the many little tresholds
[21:23:15] <Tanvir> Most of the participants (60%+) are students, that points us to more outreach and campaigns to students, and the use Wikipedia for their study.
[21:23:16] <Ironholds> Fluffernutter: sorry, just got back
[21:23:30] <Ironholds> yes, I have only heard sikob swear once in my 9 months of working here, and it was at that slide. the-wub has also seen it :)
[21:23:34] <sikob> Ziko: agree wholeheartedly, just wanted to hear you say it :-)
[21:23:36] <Ziko> great response rate, tanvir, maybe a sign for the strong emotional link between those people and their language? (compared to english speakers)
[21:23:52] <Tanvir> Ziko, indeed.
[21:24:07] <Tanvir> That is we are thinking about using to motivate them actually.
[21:24:14] <Ziko> :-) i recently saw how senior cititzens needed 40 minutes just to add a category to a photo on WM commons
[21:25:04] <Tanvir> From the survey we also learned that, most people know that edit Wikipedia, but they hesitate to edit, as the most spoken issue -- "I don't know where to start".
[21:25:09] <Ziko> tanvir, i know it from esperanto: it is *our* language which we love, and we want to show that it works for every content, and want to impress others, and support the people who are speaking *our* language
[21:25:27] <sikob> i think thats why usability tests like pete's and reader surveys like tanvir's are so useful. because they are good reminders that its not as easy as experienced wikipedians think
[21:25:50] <Tanvir> Sure. Newbies think from a different way.
[21:25:57] <Ocaasi> it's hard to remember what it was like when you didn't know anything
[21:26:28] <Ziko> yes, and within 10 years we learned step by step, when something new was introduced
[21:26:42] <Tanvir> Btw, our survey was divided in 4 parts, reading, editing, help and support, and readers information.
[21:27:15] <Tanvir> In editing section, people made a clearly expressed about what would like to have the help pages on, and how they want us to writer them.
[21:27:36] <SarahStierch> So what are the next steps Tanvir ?
[21:27:45] <Tanvir> As Siko said earlier 71.2% prefer step-by-step help pages.
[21:27:56] <Tanvir> And aye Sarah, we are going to work on that.
[21:28:06] <Tanvir> *respecting the needs*
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[21:28:34] <sikob> more questions for tanvir?
[21:28:43] <Tanvir> So, in the coming week, I will start discussion with the local community, will finalize the list of pages to work on, and how we can make them useful for newbies.
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[21:28:55] <Tanvir> Then we act and then we experiment!
[21:29:04] <sikob> :-)
[21:29:15] * SarahStierch cheers
[21:29:53] <sikob> if there aren't other questions on this topic, i'm going to propose we open it up to jon on translations…whose project ends this week
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[21:30:18] <Tanvir> An interesting piece of news: We asked participants in a text filed to write some suggestions about enriching readability of Bangla Wikipedia. It was optional but we got 771 responses for it!
[21:30:31] <SarahStierch> :*( jsoby's project ends
[21:30:51] <SarahStierch> I'm really impressed with how many responses you received.
[21:31:17] <jsoby> yay, my turn
[21:31:22] <Tanvir> Anyway, if you have any more questions, ask them on the SWEEP talk page, or mail me, or whatever.. you all know where to find me. :-P
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[21:31:38] <Tanvir> Yay, a Jon appears!
[21:31:40] <jsoby> so, my project has been about improving the overall translation process on Meta
[21:31:41] <SarahStierch> or stalk Tanvir on IRC :D
[21:31:45] <jsoby> and tomorrow is my last day :o
[21:31:47] <SarahStierch> :(
[21:31:50] <Tanvir> :-(
[21:31:56] * J-Mo weeps
[21:32:08] <Tanvir> Jsoby got the office hours though. So tight timing.
[21:32:14] <jsoby> (but i'm still gonna hang around, seven years of involvement doesn't stop that easily)
[21:32:37] <Tanvir> Aye, rub for steward next time. ;-)
[21:32:41] <Tanvir> run *
[21:32:41] <Ironholds> jsoby: you're LEAVING?
[21:32:44] <jsoby> ;D
[21:32:47] <Ironholds> will you at least let us hire your beard?
[21:33:02] <jsoby> Ironholds: my beard has disappeared. but that's still confidential
[21:33:06] <Ironholds> dammit
[21:33:07] <sikob> settle down now…anyone have questions or want info on translations?
[21:33:10] <jsoby> it has disapp-beard
[21:33:12] <sikob> :D
[21:33:13] <jsoby> in the project, a lot has been changed (thanks to nifty tools by the i18n team especially)
[21:33:14] * Ironholds groans
[21:33:35] <jsoby> and we now have a proper Mediawiki-based system of contacting translators
[21:33:54] <Tanvir> The extension you mean Jsoby?
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[21:34:23] <jsoby> Tanvir: yes
[21:34:30] <jsoby> both Translate extension and TranslationNotifications extension
[21:34:43] <Tanvir> Right, very useful.
[21:34:45] <Ocaasi> can you give a quick example of how the contacting translators works?
[21:34:51] <jsoby> we ran a campaign last month to recruit more translators, and got more than 1200 registered translators
[21:34:53] <jsoby> which, among other things, has lead to translations into around 40 languages within less than a week on this: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Highlights,_June_2012
[21:34:58] <jsoby> Ocaasi: sure
[21:35:12] <SarahStierch> wow
[21:35:15] * SarahStierch claps
[21:35:47] <jsoby> Ocaasi: this screenshot shows the form we use to contact people. very spartan, but very efficient: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/File:TRANOT-notify.png
[21:36:02] * Tanvir is one of that 1200.
[21:36:19] <jsoby> basically you choose a page to "advertise", which languages' translators to contact, and a deadline and optional message
[21:36:20] * SarahStierch hates being monolingual :(
[21:36:25] <jsoby> Tanvir: yay, awesome :D
[21:36:37] <SarahStierch> (unless Simple English counts and even that isn't easy)
[21:36:37] <Tanvir> You gave me a barnstar. :-D
[21:36:38] <SarahStierch> anyway
[21:36:48] <SarahStierch> jsoby: where do people get the messages?
[21:36:49] <SarahStierch> their talk pages?
[21:37:06] <jsoby> SarahStierch: they can choose between talk page on Meta, talk page on their home wiki or in their e-mail
[21:37:35] <jsoby> would be nice to have RSS too, but that would require a whole lot more coding. and only a very small percentage wanted that anyways
[21:37:42] <Tanvir> I always got in my mailbox. I only received barnstars on talk page. :-P
[21:37:44] <SarahStierch> ah nice
[21:37:49] <jsoby> this is a screenshot of the signup page for translators: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/File:TRANOT-signup.png
[21:38:03] <jsoby> basically based on a survey we held for fundraiser translators back in January
[21:38:13] <heatherw> <3 spartan, but very efficient
[21:38:26] <Ocaasi> is that extension active on en.wiki?
[21:38:34] <jsoby> Ocaasi: only metawiki
[21:38:51] <heatherw> (the rub, as always)
[21:38:59] <jsoby> heatherw: :D
[21:39:00] <Ocaasi> so, how do people know to look there?
[21:39:27] <jsoby> Ocaasi: we ran a banner campaign in the first two weeks of July for the top 20 languages
[21:39:36] <jsoby> which got us signups for 80 different languages
[21:39:41] <Ocaasi> awesome
[21:39:42] <jsoby> Wikimedia is truly multilingual
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[21:40:10] <Tanvir> Aye, no one speaks as much as languages like Wikipedia.
[21:40:12] <jsoby> i'm hoping to run campaigns for other languages later on
[21:40:25] * SarahStierch just signed up for simple english, better than nothing!
[21:40:42] <jsoby> we're also reviving the volunteer translator committee (which i'll be a part of as a volunteer), which will run more campaigns like that. if we're alowed.
[21:40:51] <jsoby> SarahStierch: yay :D
[21:40:52] <Tanvir> Start learning one Sarah. :-)
[21:41:33] <Ocaasi> jsoby: are you familiar with the WikiProject medicine translation taskforce? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine/Translation_Task_Force
[21:41:37] <jsoby> SarahStierch, we could use some Navajo speakers that know something about esthetics.... (/me points to https://nv.wikipedia.org/ )
[21:41:47] * SarahStierch winks at jsoby
[21:41:51] <SarahStierch> I know a few, and they're artists, so...
[21:41:51] <jsoby> Ocaasi: yup. sad that i didn't get the chance to take to James H about that in wikimania
[21:42:09] <jsoby> SarahStierch, i think you should learn Navajo ;D
[21:42:10] <SarahStierch> and Tanvir I would like to learn a language, I Have a disability that makes it sort of tough, but, someday! I do intend on expanding out of English..
[21:42:22] <SarahStierch> ANYWAY
[21:42:28] * Tanvir yays to hear that.
[21:42:46] <sikob> other questions/thoughts for jon, or shall we move on to a new topic?
[21:43:29] <jsoby> going once …
[21:43:36] <jsoby> going twice …
[21:43:37] <sikob> going twice...
[21:43:40] <sikob> heh gone
[21:43:47] <Tanvir> Long ago, aye.
[21:43:52] <sikob> ok, so we've got the Teahouse, and we've got general fellowships questions
[21:44:06] <sikob> i'm guessing most folks in here are pretty familiar with both things
[21:44:06] <Tanvir> So.. /me offers tea to Teahouse hosts.
[21:44:19] * J-Mo sips
[21:44:30] <J-Mo> shall Sarah and I do our dance?
[21:44:38] <sikob> i was thinking maybe instead of us talking at y'all about either one, lets just open up the floor to anyone who wants to ask questions or discuss on either one
[21:44:44] * SarahStierch does the Charleston
[21:44:47] <sikob> because we've seen you guys dance…a lot :D
[21:44:51] * SarahStierch nods
[21:45:05] <J-Mo> I'm more of a macarena kind of guy. Siko: sounds good!
[21:45:05] <Tanvir> Go ahead J-Mo. I am in the camera.
[21:45:22] <heatherw> O.o
[21:45:26] <J-Mo> so… any burning questions about Teahouse?
[21:45:34] <sikob> i kind of want to hear from anyone who came to office hours with something particular in mind they were hoping to learn about…yeah
[21:46:03] <SarahStierch> as long as the questions don't burn the teahouse down. preferably.
[21:46:10] <Ocaasi> well, what are future plans for Teahouse? expansion? invite bot?
[21:46:26] <heatherw> so.. many… plans...
[21:46:29] <J-Mo> I've got news on the invite bot front
[21:46:30] <jsoby> J-Mo: i have one. how many things are different from normal editing. i mean script-wise, how many and how big are the changes that are TH-specific?
[21:46:56] <Tanvir> Bot invites are controversial, but when we have too many users to invite, bot is the only option. :S
[21:47:12] <Ocaasi> J-Mo: what's the news?
[21:47:22] <sikob> i strongly maintain that invites are different from welcomes
[21:47:27] <J-Mo> Ocaasi: the HostBot is currently in a 2 week trial, inviting a set of 40-70 new editors from the Teahouse invitee report, who previously were being invited manually.
[21:47:29] * SarahStierch nods at sikob
[21:47:41] <Ocaasi> hey, trial! sounds like good news then.
[21:47:47] <Tanvir> Sikob, well, right!
[21:47:47] <J-Mo> so far, we've seen a noticable jump in participation since we started bot invites, but it's still early
[21:48:16] <Ocaasi> for example, if someone says 'thank you' you'd never say 'you're invite'
[21:48:24] <J-Mo> jsoby: the only non-standard code in Teahouse right now is the Q&A gadget, which we implemented at the beginning of the pilot, in March.
[21:48:29] <sikob> er exactly
[21:48:47] <sikob> noticable jump looks like about double, right j-mo?
[21:48:58] <jsoby> J-Mo: okay, yeah. /me takes a look
[21:49:02] <Tanvir> Jsoby, [late topic] appearance of https://nv.wikipedia.org is a total disaster IMO.
[21:49:14] <J-Mo> yep. about double the questions on the Q&A board, and more than double the number of weekly guest profiles created.
[21:49:25] <Ocaasi> what's the comparison against? manual? if so, why would a bot be more effective than a manual invite, aren't they basically identical?
[21:49:50] <J-Mo> oh, it's just a consequence of more invites being sent out, I think.
[21:49:55] <Ocaasi> ah
[21:50:03] <J-Mo> it woudl be many hours of work to manually invite that many people every day.
[21:50:11] <J-Mo> er, it WAS… right Sarah?
[21:50:13] * SarahStierch coughs
[21:50:16] <J-Mo> :P
[21:50:18] <Ocaasi> :)
[21:50:34] <SarahStierch> BUT IT WAS WORTH IT FOR THE CAUSE
[21:50:37] <J-Mo> basically, HostBot is freeing Sarah up to do other things… like talk to new editors!
[21:50:46] <SarahStierch> and work on gender gap stuff :D
[21:50:47] <J-Mo> which she's really good at, IMO
[21:50:52] <SarahStierch> danke
[21:50:59] <heatherw> and invite them in other ways, like AfC
[21:51:03] * SarahStierch nods at heatherw
[21:51:09] <sikob> which doesn't mean there still aren't lots of new editors who aren't getting automated invites that anyone can't still manually invite!
[21:51:14] <sikob> what heather said
[21:51:32] <J-Mo> yeah, we're really just scratching the surface of potential invitees here
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[21:51:46] <J-Mo> and we have capacity to 'serve' many more new editors on Teahouse than we get
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[21:51:59] * Tanvir is pretty annoyed of AfC backlogs :-/ @ Heatherw and SarahStierch.
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[21:52:20] <J-Mo> also re: automated invites...
[21:52:22] <SarahStierch> Yes, right now we have more hosts ahthan we have questions..
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[21:52:42] <SarahStierch> and it's awesome - we have an all time high of hosts (31!) but, people get burnt out inviting so..the automatic can help
[21:52:42] <J-Mo> we're running a little A/B test. Half the invites have a host's username on them (personalized) and half don't.
[21:52:47] <Tanvir> I wish to have the same in Bangla Wikipedia..
[21:53:00] <SarahStierch> Tanvir: a teahouse or hostbot or?
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[21:53:14] <J-Mo> we're going to see if some level of personalization makes people more likely to check out Teahouse
[21:53:23] <Tanvir> SarahStierch, "more hosts than question" part.
[21:53:33] <SarahStierch> Ah, I see.
[21:53:47] <sikob> it really is a nice problem to have, true
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[21:54:01] <sikob> before we run out of time completely: tanvir and i are wondering if people are reading the fellowship news, and if so, if you've got suggestions to improve it
[21:54:28] <sikob> and i guess i should also say: submit new fellowship project ideas if you've got em
[21:54:58] <Tanvir> We are currently developing making the fellowship pages lot more usable and attractive.
[21:55:31] <sikob> once we lock down a few more bits, we'll translate them too
[21:55:39] <J-Mo> woot!
[21:55:53] <Tanvir> We already made few improvements. And if you have any more write them on the talk page.
[21:56:00] <Tanvir> Or whatever, be BOLD. :-D
[21:56:32] <Ocaasi> I'd be happy to shamelessly plug my two proposals. Feel free to give feedback on them:
[21:56:41] <Ocaasi> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Fellowships/Project_Ideas/The_Wikipedia_Library
[21:56:47] <Ocaasi> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Fellowships/Project_Ideas/The_Wikipedia_Adventure
[21:56:59] <Tanvir> Exciting names!
[21:57:10] <Ocaasi> thanks!
[21:58:01] <J-Mo> yeah, these are both great proposals. Nicely done O
[21:58:10] * J-Mo will endorse
[21:58:32] <Ocaasi> gracias. i learned from you all. mostly how to integrate dancing with conferencing, but also how to write nice proposals
[21:58:43] <J-Mo> (in my capacity as a research geek, not as a fellow)
[21:58:47] <Ocaasi> of course
[21:58:51] <sikob> *groans* anyone have questions about applying, or anything else fellowships related?
[21:59:15] <sikob> last words from jsoby on his almost last day?
[21:59:27] <SarahStierch> Great work jsoby
[21:59:35] <SarahStierch> I can't wait to see the continued impacts of your project, and participate in any capacity I can!
[21:59:35] * jsoby stays silent
[21:59:38] <jsoby> thanks SarahStierch :)
[21:59:47] <SarahStierch> And good luck with your new pursuits!
[21:59:57] <jsoby> asante sana
[22:00:14] <Tanvir> That's not simple English Jsoby!
[22:00:16] <Tanvir> :-P
[22:00:21] <SarahStierch> :P
[22:00:30] <J-Mo> squash banana?
[22:00:38] <sikob> alright, thanks all for coming! let's call this done :-)
[22:00:40] <jsoby> J-Mo: yes :D
[22:00:42] <Tanvir> I know it is the first fellows office hour, but next time shoot your questions like a Gatling gun!
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[22:00:55] <J-Mo> rat-a-tat-tat!