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IRC office hours/Office hours 2013-08-22

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Topic: Multimedia plans and new feature ideas.
Hosts: Fabrice Florin, Mark Holmquist, Brian Wolff

Time: 18:00-19:20 UTC
Channel: #wikimedia-office
Timestamps are in UTC

[17:59:00] <fabriceflorin> Hi guys, anyone here for the Multimedia IRC chat?
[17:59:54] <fabriceflorin> Hey rillke, it's an honor to meet you!
[17:59:59] <zhuyifei1999_> me
[18:00:18] <Nikerabbit> I can lurk
[18:00:24] <zhuyifei1999_> @trusted
[18:00:24] <wm-bot> I trust: petan!.*@wikimedia/Petrb (admin), .*@wikipedia/Ironholds (admin),
[18:00:39] <fabriceflorin> Hello zhuyifei1999, pleasure to meet you!
[18:00:41] <Nikerabbit> I'm interested in intersection of multimedia and i18n like subtitle translation
[18:00:53] <fabriceflorin> Anyone else here for the Multimedia IRC chat?
[18:00:56] <rillke> fabriceflorin: Nice to meet you as well.
[18:00:58] <quiddity> Yup :)
[18:01:05] <Graf-Dracula> Multimedia IRC chat o_O
[18:01:15] <fabriceflorin> Hey quiddity, so nice to reconnect!
[18:01:41] <zhuyifei1999_> I guess it's time
[18:01:46] <fabriceflorin> Hi Graf-Dracula, good to see you!
[18:01:56] <fabriceflorin> Yes, welcome to our Multimedia Chat, everyone!
[18:02:01] <Steinsplitter>  :-)
[18:02:30] <Ironholds> what did I do?
[18:02:38] <Ironholds> oh, right. yeah, I'll lurk
[18:02:56] <Steinsplitter> (argh. today is 22the. :))
[18:03:06] <fabriceflorin> Today, we would like to talk about 3 things related to multimedia: 1) Multimedia Plans (for the coming year) 2) * Media Viewer (starting development); 3) Gallery Tags (released this week)
[18:03:13] <marktraceur> Ironholds: It's all your fault
[18:03:34] <fabriceflorin> Is there anything else you guys would to discuss today?
[18:05:03] <fabriceflorin> For now, I would like to get the ball rolling by giving you an overview of some of the goals we are considering for the new multimedia team at WMF. You can read some of our goals on this planning page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia/2013-14_Goals
[18:06:08] <rillke> What's exactly behind "Support organizers of multimedia campaigns like Wiki Loves Monuments"?
[18:06:49] <fabriceflorin> We are building a small multimedia team at the Wikimedia Foundation to develop new features and fix current bugs related to multimedia. Some of our team members are here: engineers marktraceur and bawolff, as well as our designer violetto . Say hello!
[18:06:58] * marktraceur waves
[18:07:14] <fabriceflorin> Also here is our new software engineer: bd808 !
[18:07:24] * bd808 takes a bow
[18:07:27] <Steinsplitter> bawolff and marktraceur  :-) verry good
[18:07:31] <violetto> hello guys
[18:07:44] <Nikerabbit> I'm curios what is in the scope for that team
[18:07:48] <fabriceflorin> Hi Steinsplitter, good to meet you!
[18:07:54] <marktraceur> I'm the frontend grunt of the team, so I'm the guy wrangling UploadWizard and similar projects, as well as trying to build shiny new interfaces for y'all to make the multimedia experience a little more like 2013 :)
[18:07:55] * bd808 is too :)
[18:07:57] <Steinsplitter> hi fabriceflorin
[18:08:05] <fabriceflorin> Our overall mission is to build software tools that enable easier viewing, contribution, curation, discovery and publishing of multimedia content to Wikimedia projects.
[18:09:22] <bd808> I'm on indefinite loan from the core team with a mandate to work on tech debt and blocker bugs that effect multimedia workflow and operational stabilty
[18:09:43] <fabriceflorin> Nikerabbit: Our scope is to work on images, audio, video and other multimedia file formats. However, we can only do so much with a small team, so we will aim to spread the work over time this year, as outlined here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia/2013-14_Goals#Activities
[18:09:46] <bawolff> all the multimedia things!!
[18:09:58] <PierreSelim> Hi fabriceflorin
[18:10:20] * Ainali really likes the new gallery tag
[18:10:28] <fabriceflorin> Hello PierreSelim, thanks for joining us!
[18:10:29] <bawolff> Thank you Ainali
[18:10:46] <quiddity> Huzzah for cleaning up technical dept! Making devs and users happier, everywhere.
[18:10:47] <PierreSelim> yeah the new galleries rox :p
[18:10:48] <Steinsplitter> bawolff: jepp. the new gallery tags ar verry nice
[18:10:52] <fabriceflorin> Here are key features we are considering for this calendar year: 1) Media Viewer (see images in large size, on the same page) 2) File Notifications (release Echo on Commons) 3) Upload Wizard (fix bugs, incremental refactoring, GLAM batch upload tool)
[18:10:53] * zhuyifei1999_ agrees with Ainali
[18:10:57] <Steinsplitter> (sorry in advence for my bad english)
[18:11:02] <quiddity> debt*
[18:11:03] <marktraceur> I also like to add, when fabriceflorin lists off his group types, that we're also mindful of developers who want to expand on things we build, and we intend to build the things in a sustainable way :)
[18:11:21] <fabriceflorin> Ainali: Thank bawolff for this work of beauty -- so glad you like the gallery tag.
[18:11:25] <marktraceur> (sustainable as in "they won't be vaporware")
[18:11:35] <fabriceflorin> marktraceur: Well said, thank you!
[18:11:43] <bawolff> our scope broadly defined, is pretty much everything to do with image/multimedia (especially in MediaWiki), as well as stuff to do with commons, since commons is the main repository of images
[18:11:59] <Steinsplitter>  :-)
[18:12:12] <bd808> bawolff: http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3vkjfr/
[18:12:26] <bawolff> lol
[18:12:41] <zhuyifei1999_> a lot of MediaWiki.org images aren't in Commons
[18:12:59] <bawolff> However, we're not doing things like where the files get stored on the hard drive, as that's more ops scope
[18:13:12] <fabriceflorin> Features under consideration for 2014 include: Under consideration for next year: 1) File Feedback (to surface useful content), 2) Bettter Search + 3) Meta-data/Tags (hopefully with WikiData), and if time allows, Campaign Tools (to help more campaigns like Wiki Loves monuments take place)
[18:13:28] <Steinsplitter> zhuyifei1999_: but a verry lot ;-)
[18:13:47] <bawolff> zhuyifei1999_: That's very true. We hope that our improvements will improve the experiance for local images to, as well as encourage people to upload to commons over locally where appropriate
[18:14:19] <fabriceflorin> Besides shiny new features, we have a lot of technical debt to pay off, bugs to fix and other important architecture tasks that we could not take on until we had a multimedia team. So this technical debt is likely to take a lot of our time this year.
[18:14:43] <PierreSelim> fabriceflorin: to surface useful content we are supposed to have Featured pictures, Valued pictures and Quality images
[18:14:47] <fabriceflorin> What do you think of this overall plan? Would you recommend we prioritize things differently?
[18:15:22] <zhuyifei1999_> +Support: Cool
[18:15:34] <Ainali> I would say meta-data should be prio 1 next year
[18:15:59] <marktraceur> Ainali: We intend to work with the WMDE folks to support metadata in Wikibase
[18:16:03] <PierreSelim> The search is also a real pain IMO when you are not expert on how commons works
[18:16:14] <marktraceur> It's still a bit cloudy as plans go, but it's certainly on our minds
[18:16:15] <fabriceflorin> PierreSelim: Good point about featured pictures, which we will continue to support vigorously. But we are hoping that a simple feedback tool could help more people surface content on Wikipedia as well, through the new Media Viewer (e.g a 'thanks' tool could help).
[18:16:18] <Ainali> marktraceur: Awesome!
[18:16:33] <bawolff> PierreSelim: ^demon and manybubbles are currently rewriting mediawiki's search
[18:16:44] <PierreSelim> fabriceflorin: ok both can coexist, fair enought :p
[18:16:54] <bawolff> We'll probably want to see how the new search works, before making multimedia specific improvements to it
[18:17:09] <zhuyifei1999_> fabriceflorin: do we have search for similiar images?
[18:17:32] <fabriceflorin> Ainali: I would agree that structured meta-data should be our top priority. We had a productive Multimedia Roundtable at Wikimania in Hong Kong earlier this month, and came to the same conclusion: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Roundtables/Roundtable_3
[18:18:03] <bawolff> We should stress though, that structured metadata will probably be primarily done by the wikidata team
[18:18:15] <fabriceflorin> zhuyifei1999_: Our hope is that we can partner with WikiData to provide structured data on Commons and integrate it with their system to provide better search.
[18:18:37] <PierreSelim> fabriceflorin: a good way to deal with metadata and description to get rid of our hundreds of description templates
[18:18:43] <rillke> What I do really like is bawolff's intention to create an API that allows fetching portions of the file information like the description. This will make migration to wikibase easier.
[18:18:53] <fabriceflorin> OK, folks, I would now like to turn your attention to the Media Viewer, which is the first major feature we
[18:19:36] <fabriceflorin> Media Viewer is the first new feature we're taking on this year: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia/Media_Viewer
[18:19:59] <bawolff> rillke: I'm hoping my api thing (should it all go well) will act as a hold over until structured metadata is fully implemented
[18:20:39] <fabriceflorin> We would love to get your feedback on this feature, which marktraceur and bawolff are starting to develop, based on designs from violetto1 -- to review this project together, I invite you to open these Media Viewer Slides: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/File:Media_Viewer_Slides.pdf
[18:21:04] <bawolff> Since we're talking about wikidata, in case anyone hasn't seen it, the wikidata folks posted some of their ideas for integration a while back - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wikidata_for_media_info
[18:21:15] <fabriceflorin> The purpose of the Media Viewer tool is to:
[18:21:16] <fabriceflorin> * Provide a richer multimedia experience, to match user expectations
[18:21:17] <fabriceflorin> * Display images in larger size, on the same page as the thumbnail you click on
[18:21:18] <fabriceflorin> * Reduce confusion when users click on thumbnails (bypass duplicate file info page)
[18:21:19] <fabriceflorin> * Offer new ways for viewers to take action (e.g. feedback or tags - future versions)
[18:21:48] <quiddity> Oh my. Those updated media-viewer mockups are gorgeous, and nicely detailed without being overwhelming. Kudos on the design.
[18:22:03] <rillke> fabriceflorin: Will it be able to show image notes?
[18:22:07] <marktraceur> violetto1: ^^
[18:22:10] <fabriceflorin> As you browse through the slides, you can see some of the maps of current and proposed workflows: http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=File:Media_Viewer_Slides.pdf&page=3
[18:22:34] <rillke> *annotations
[18:22:42] <quiddity> rillke, image notes, as in https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Gadget-ImageAnnotator  ? (just to clarify)
[18:22:46] <marktraceur> (re: quiddity, who appreciated the design, though I'm sure you're watching anyway)
[18:23:05] <bawolff> rillke: That's a good question. I don't think we've thought about that so far, but it seems like it would be a good idea
[18:23:13] <fabriceflorin> quiddity: Thanks to violetto1 for her fine design work on these mockups ;) Note that these designs are for discussion purposes, not cast in concrete. We wanted to show you some of the ways that these features could be presented, to get your input before we develop it.
[18:23:18] <rillke> quiddity: Yes, there are some standardized templates.
[18:23:52] <fabriceflorin> So when you click on a thumbnail on an article, you would get this lightbox view: http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=File%3AMedia_Viewer_Slides.pdf&page=6
[18:24:00] <Ainali> Another thing that would be nice, let the annotations from commons show up in other projects where the image is used
[18:24:15] <rillke> quiddity:The design is yours, the template just says where the notes have to go.
[18:24:24] <quiddity> Re annotations: Mhm. I've been chatting with the gadget's developer recently, and he's a bit worried about the age of the code, and hesitant about rolling it out beyond Commons. I'll point the devs here towards that discussion, later.
[18:24:41] <fabriceflorin> What do you think of this proposed mockup? The intent is to show you the image in larger screen, with less visual clutter, and with the most important info at the top.
[18:24:43] <violetto1> thanks guys. i agree with fabrice, they're not concrete in fact a starting point and we're hoping to make it better from your feedback
[18:25:32] <zhuyifei1999_> But harder to get ti the image page
[18:25:42] <zhuyifei1999_> *to
[18:25:42] <bawolff> I don't know for sure, but I feel like the ideal path if we were going to support it on other projects where the image is used, would be to turn it into an extension
[18:25:57] <PierreSelim> fabriceflorin: I don't know, it has not a lot of space for descriptions which is also a very valuable thing we do
[18:26:10] <JeanFred> o/
[18:26:11] <fabriceflorin> Before I forget, we invite you and other community members who might have missed this IRC chat to add comments about Media Viewer later on to this discussion page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Multimedia/Media_Viewer
[18:26:16] <marktraceur> Salut, JeanFred
[18:26:16] <zhuyifei1999_> it would be better as a gadget
[18:27:09] * JeanFred waves at marktraceur, fabriceflorin, PierreSelim, Pyb
[18:27:24] <rillke> Bon soir JeanFred.
[18:27:26] <marktraceur> zhuyifei1999_: How do you figure?
[18:27:36] <fabriceflorin> Also note that if you scroll down the lightbox view, you would see more info and other related images, as shown here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3AMedia_Viewer_Slides.pdf&page=7
[18:27:49] <fabriceflorin> Hello JeanFred, good to see you again!
[18:27:55] <zhuyifei1999_> fabriceflorin: ???
[18:28:19] <zhuyifei1999_> sorry, marktraceur
[18:28:20] <fabriceflorin> So how could we improve the lightbox view of the Media Viewer? Are you getting the important info you need in this view? Or would you recommend any tweaks?
[18:28:31] <multichill|work> Good evening, I"m a bit late, do we have logs online?
[18:28:31] <marktraceur> zhuyifei1999_: Why do you think a gadget would be better?
[18:28:47] <marktraceur> multichill|work: Almost probably. Let me look.
[18:29:02] <rillke> fabriceflorin: "How do I copy this file to my website?"
[18:29:19] <Steinsplitter> good question^^
[18:29:23] <marktraceur> multichill|work: http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/20130822.txt
[18:29:23] <zhuyifei1999_> marktraceur: can be changed
[18:29:33] <rillke> (or how do I include this...?
[18:29:43] <zhuyifei1999_> @log
[18:30:05] <fabriceflorin> Hello multichill|work, thanks for joining! Part of this discussion will be familiar to you, on the heels of our Multimedia Roundtable at Wikimania. But today, we are discussing new mockups for the Media Viewer in these slides, where we are discussing the proposed Lightbox View: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Media_Viewer_Slides.pdf&page=6
[18:30:16] <marktraceur> zhuyifei1999_: A) So can it be as an extension, though through more code review B) We're aware that other developers will want to extend it, so we'll be building in hooks and other opportunities for hacking it, and individual communities are welcome to screw with those.
[18:30:44] <fabriceflorin> rillke: Good question. Would an 'Embed' button seem useful in the lightbox view?
[18:30:54] <zhuyifei1999_> marktraceur: Yeah, but everyone would be forced to use it
[18:31:09] <rillke> fabriceflorin: Yes, of course.
[18:31:15] <quiddity> fabriceflorin, violetto1, I think the default expansion of the Description (PDF page 6), should be a lot longer. At least 5 lines by default. There's often really good and detailed information in the descriptions. Also not lightgrey text - it should stand out more.
[18:31:30] <rillke> fabriceflorin: People often do not get how to properly attribute, ...
[18:31:42] <fabriceflorin> I would like to draw your attention on an early mockup of a possible toolbar, which could include useful tools above the image, as shown here, at the top of the page: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3AMedia_Viewer_Slides.pdf&page=10
[18:31:44] <rillke> And if it then comes to the license....
[18:32:03] <marktraceur> zhuyifei1999_: Not at first, considering how we're building it, and probably not even later, because again of how we're building it. We aren't in the business of forcing anyone to use anything on their own computers.
[18:32:06] <rillke> >50% of my uploaded files are not properly reused.
[18:32:16] <fabriceflorin> Here is a detail of what a possible Media Viewer Toolbar could look like: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3AMedia_Viewer_Slides.pdf&page=12
[18:32:18] <rillke> Even Swiss Television does not get it right.
[18:32:18] * JeanFred waves at multichill|work
[18:32:54] <fabriceflorin> This toolbar could also be available on mouseover in this full-screen view: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3AMedia_Viewer_Slides.pdf&page=9
[18:33:24] <Alex_____> helllo!
[18:33:26] <zhuyifei1999_> marktraceur: hmm
[18:33:40] <bawolff> zhuyifei1999_: The reason I was thinking that it should maybe be an extension (I haven't looked at the code, so all this could be wrong), is that certain things can be done more efficiently
[18:33:44] <fabriceflorin> For the first release in September, we are focusing on just a few tools:
[18:33:45] <fabriceflorin> Close button (goes back to article view)
[18:33:46] <fabriceflorin> Full screen button (expands into full-screen view)
[18:33:46] <fabriceflorin> Lightbox button (returns to smaller image in browser lightbox)
[18:33:49] <Steinsplitter> i like the gallery, looks verry nice.
[18:34:18] <fabriceflorin> But for future releases, we could consider offering more tools:
[18:34:19] <fabriceflorin> Next/previous arrows (step through related files)
[18:34:21] <fabriceflorin> Share (with friends on your social networks)
[18:34:22] <fabriceflorin> Thanks (thank the user who uploaded this file)
[18:34:23] <fabriceflorin> Add (insert this file in an article, or into a gallery)
[18:34:23] <fabriceflorin> Flag (report any issues with this file)
[18:34:39] <Steinsplitter> Flag (report any issues with this file)
[18:34:39] <Steinsplitter> ^^ verry verry good idea!
[18:34:39] <Alex_____> any advice how for this task force that i'm working on: http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Global_Economic_Map_task_force
[18:34:49] <zhuyifei1999_> thats: latest or first
[18:34:54] <zhuyifei1999_> *thanks
[18:35:05] <fabriceflorin> So let's take them one at a time: what do you think of the idea of having Next and Previous arrows to cycle through all the images for a particular article, gallery or category?
[18:35:46] <Steinsplitter> fabriceflorin: "Flag (report any issues with this file)" verry good function - to report copyright isuisse etc.
[18:35:56] <zhuyifei1999_> gallary and cat
[18:36:00] <rillke> fabriceflorin: Useful.
[18:36:08] <fabriceflorin> riilke: The reason I think an embed tool would be useful is that it would make it easy to include the license info in the code you copy. Sadly, embed is not represented in this mockup yet :(
[18:36:47] <Pyb> fabriceflorin: how does it work if a file is in more than one category ?
[18:37:13] <fabriceflorin> Hi Steinsplitter : Glad you think the Flag tool would be useful. The idea is to give them a short menu of key issues with that file, which anyone could report (e.g. inappropriate, no source, copy vio, etc.)
[18:37:15] <LilTiger> hi
[18:37:17] <marktraceur> Alex_____: I'm not sure this is the place to ask :(
[18:37:26] <marktraceur> At least not right now, sadly
[18:37:42] <zhuyifei1999_> Pyb: parameters, cookies, session datas, JSes
[18:37:43] <Alex_____> that is okay, i am totally new to this thing anyway
[18:37:56] <quiddity> Next and Previous - would that overlap with, or replace, or just re-use, the Slideshow feature?
[18:38:08] <bawolff> Alex_____: try #wikimedia-wikidata
[18:38:09] <Steinsplitter> fabriceflorin: The Flag tool is a verry good an important function :-). A lot of users have problems to report copyright violations etc.
[18:38:10] <JeanFred> Ooooooh, LilTiger ^______^
[18:38:20] * LilTiger waves JeanFred and rfarrand
[18:38:23] <fabriceflorin> What do you guys think of the proposed 'Thanks' feature? The idea is that would send a private notification to thank the person who uploaded (and/or edited?) the file. But that data could also be used to surface content that was found useful by others. What do you think?
[18:38:31] * JeanFred waves at rfarrand too
[18:38:38] <Ainali> http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3vkjr9/
[18:38:44] <marktraceur> zhuyifei1999_: I don't see how any of those things are relevant to Pyb's question
[18:38:52] <rfarrand> JeanFred: !!!! HI!
[18:38:54] <Steinsplitter> Thanks' feature: using the "wikilove"-extension?
[18:38:57] <marktraceur> Except *barely* JavaScript
[18:38:59] <rfarrand> LilTiger: Hi!!
[18:39:09] <rfarrand> How are you guys doing!?
[18:39:10] <Ironholds> Steinsplitter: I assume using Echo.
[18:39:14] <Steinsplitter> or including the wikilove extension
[18:39:15] <Steinsplitter> ah
[18:39:15] <rillke> fabriceflorin: About thanks, the person who receives these messages should be able to opt-out
[18:39:20] <LilTiger> fine
[18:39:26] <zhuyifei1999_> marktraceur: why not, any of them would work?
[18:39:37] <marktraceur> rillke: This would be as simple as turning off the existing thanks notification AFAIK
[18:39:49] <rfarrand> LilTiger: Only fine? Most tigers don't get to travel as much as you do.
[18:40:04] <zhuyifei1999_> marktraceur: 1) use &cat=cat_name
[18:40:14] <marktraceur> zhuyifei1999_: For figuring out which category to show if there's more than one? I'm pretty sure cookies have no use for that.
[18:40:22] <marktraceur> Maybe I misunderstand the question
[18:40:34] <fabriceflorin> rillke: Good point about giving people the option to opt out from thanks. We have been experimenting with this Thanks feature as part of the Echo Notifications project, and it seems to be useful to people who use it.
[18:41:02] <zhuyifei1999_> marktraceur: 2&3) store temp data
[18:41:05] <fabriceflorin> And marktraceur is right that any notification can be turned off in preferences already.
[18:41:16] <zhuyifei1999_> 4) use it in a single page with JS
[18:41:36] <marktraceur> zhuyifei1999_: Probably the latter will be the choice, then. But there's more to be said about choosing the "right" category
[18:41:40] <Percy> o/
[18:42:09] <marktraceur> Pyb: To attempt answering your question, we'd probably find a way to determine what the most relevant category was, and if we couldn't do that, we'd try to find out which was the most specific
[18:42:28] <Pyb> marktraceur: ok, thx ;)
[18:42:46] <marktraceur> Pyb: e.g. if a picture were in "Uploaded via UploadWizard" and "Sparrows in North America" we'd like to choose the latter, but the algorithms we'll use for that aren't really researched yet :)
[18:42:50] <fabriceflorin> What do guys think of the information that is now provided in the lightbox view: are you getting the info you need? Should any of these information fields be larger, higher in your view? Is there some info that you think is not really needed? https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3AMedia_Viewer_Slides.pdf&page=6
[18:42:56] <quiddity> Thanks - Would it be available for anonymous readers? If so, it would have to be separated from the existing Thanks Notifications (only visible by logged in editors)
[18:43:14] * PercyPlush papatte-bumps LilTiger
[18:43:25] <fabriceflorin> Here is a detail of the info section of the lightbox - how can we improve this layout? https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3AMedia_Viewer_Slides.pdf&page=11
[18:44:31] <JeanFred> An OSM minimap/wikiMiniAtlas with the location pinpointed ? :)
[18:44:45] <fabriceflorin> For example, is it OK if we only show one category, or should we show more categories? If we only show one category, how would we decide which is most important?
[18:44:50] <zhuyifei1999_> layouts, I wish Steve Jobs is alive
[18:45:12] <Steinsplitter> Good ideas, JanFred :-) --> minimap/wikiMiniAtlas
[18:45:14] <rillke> Yes, nearby images are sometimes of interest
[18:45:31] <fabriceflorin> Or do you think that the link to the full file info on Commons should be bigger? more explicit? or is it fine as shown in the mockup?
[18:45:32] <zhuyifei1999_> fabriceflorin: more
[18:45:34] <rillke> http://www.geolocation.ws/v/W/File%3ANorddeutsche%20Landesbank%20%28Nord%20LB%29%20Hannover%20dark%20sky%2004.jpg/-/en
[18:45:36] <quiddity> lightbox details - I'd hesitantly suggest that there's too much prominence for the exif-data. Most viewers won't care or understand about aperture [science] or ISO etc.
[18:45:37] <zhuyifei1999_> how do it decide which one is the most important?
[18:45:37] <Ainali> JeanFred: or even the OSM slippymap?
[18:46:23] <JeanFred> Ainali: Not anyhting special in mind − is the slippymap different from the usual one ?
[18:46:39] <Ainali> quiddity: Yeah, might be enough with an EXIF button that will show it
[18:46:39] <fabriceflorin> quiddity: Thanks, we are getting similar feedback that the XIFF data may be too much information in the lightbox view. What would you put instead?
[18:46:48] <rillke> fabriceflorin: As long as all the info the reader/re-user/... needs is accessible, there is no need to make the link to Commons larger.
[18:47:24] <JeanFred> rillke: taht’s debatable. Do we want to completely hide Commons away from the readers ? :p
[18:47:45] <zhuyifei1999_> no way
[18:47:53] <rillke> JeanFred: Yes, it will become a calm and nice place, then.
[18:47:53] <zhuyifei1999_> commons is important
[18:47:58] <Ainali> JeanFred: I was thinking it could be done as in de.wp
[18:48:06] <fabriceflorin> rillke: Thanks for suggesting that the info on the Media Viewer may be sufficient, without having to take folks to Commons. I wonder if others would agree. What would we need to add or remove in order to support this approach?
[18:48:32] <Ainali> press the OSM symbol in the upper right corner in this article: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin
[18:48:54] <Pyb> fabriceflorin: may be add resolution & size
[18:48:56] <bawolff> I think we need to consider what's best for the users - If they are best served by a prominant link to commons, then we should have that, if they have all the information they need, then we should de-emphasize the link to commons
[18:49:01] <fabriceflorin> Here is the current specification for the Lightbox view -- please review it after the chat and add any comments on the talk page : http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia/Media_Viewer#Lightbox_View
[18:49:30] <Ainali> Pyb: +1 on resolution and size
[18:49:40] <fabriceflorin> That's what we will be building first, along with the full-screen view, before we even try to tackle some of the tools mentioned earlier.
[18:49:41] <Steinsplitter> +1
[18:50:00] <fabriceflorin> bawolff: Good point, thanks.
[18:50:01] <zhuyifei1999_> +Support
[18:50:25] * marktraceur will need to store that five different places already anyway, so dumping it in the DOM will be trivial
[18:50:29] <zhuyifei1999_> but not flood the page
[18:50:52] <fabriceflorin> OK, folks, please add any other comments on Media Viewer on this discussion page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Multimedia/Media_Viewer
[18:50:55] <JeanFred> Ainali: oh yeah, we have the same on fr.wp. Yeah, that look good too − I think Daniel told me WikiMiniAtlas had more features (I would need t o check that)
[18:51:17] <fabriceflorin> Now, let's move on to our last agenda item, our beautiful, shiny new Gallery Tags!
[18:51:51] <multichill|work> New galleries look good :-)
[18:51:53] <Ainali> fabriceflorin: So they are available now on all non-wikipedia wikis?
[18:51:53] <JeanFred> bawolff: true enough. But Readers might be interested in discovering a free multimedia library, greatest Wikimedia project, flagship of the Free Culture (yada yada yada) :p
[18:52:00] <fabriceflorin> Here's where you can read more about Gallery Tags (released this week)
[18:52:01] <fabriceflorin> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Village_pump#.3CGallery.3E_tag
[18:52:03] <Steinsplitter> i love the new gallery tags <3
[18:52:11] <bawolff> JeanFred: true
[18:52:19] <bawolff> Thanks Steinsplitter
[18:52:34] <fabriceflorin> Kudos to bawolff for developing this feature, and to JeanFred and PierreSelim for using it right away!
[18:52:42] <bawolff> So galleries
[18:52:52] <JeanFred> They rock
[18:52:52] * zhuyifei1999_ agrees with Steinsplitter
[18:52:54] <fabriceflorin> What do you guys think of that feature? How could we improve on it?
[18:53:16] <rillke> fabriceflorin: JavaScript could be faster or avoided.
[18:53:17] <bawolff> I should note, there's one change related to how the last row is handled that's coming
[18:53:25] <rillke> It's a bit jumpy.
[18:53:26] <multichill|work> fabriceflorin: This really makes galleries suck less at Commons
[18:53:52] <bawolff> rillke: Its used mostly to make all the rows evenly justified
[18:54:05] <multichill|work> Maybe somehow apply this display style to search results and categories
[18:54:06] <JeanFred> bawolff: by the way, the fourth row is off on https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jean-Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric/CommonsRemix
[18:54:30] <Alex_____> do you guys know how to submit a properties list? this is the list of properties: http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Global_Economic_Map_task_force/Properties
[18:54:30] <JeanFred> bawolff: (at my current resolution anyway)
[18:54:32] <bawolff> multichill|work: On categories is just flipping a switch
[18:54:33] <multichill|work> bawolff: Search results display as fancy gallery (bit like google image search?)
[18:55:01] <bawolff> multichill|work: For categories, I was thinking of starting a discussion on VP in a week or so, once the dust has settled and people have tried it
[18:55:07] <multichill|work> So add the switch so we can watch galleries in that mode <url>?fancygallerymode=true
[18:55:20] <JeanFred> bawolff: sounds ood
[18:55:35] <bawolff> JeanFred: what part
[18:55:45] <fabriceflorin> Here's an example of the new Gallery Tags in action, with Wikimania pictures (each section is using a different tag): http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Fabrice_Florin_(WMF)/Photos/Wikimania_2013
[18:56:02] <bawolff> I should also mention, the mode paramter thing goes live on wikipedia today
[18:56:20] <rillke> bawolff: yes, and make the search results lazy-load after scrolling
[18:56:21] <quiddity> Alex_____, you'll have better luck if you ask at #wikimedia-wikidata
[18:56:31] <fabriceflorin> And here is what this same Wikimania page looks like without the new tags: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fabrice_Florin_(WMF)/Photos/Wikimania_2013
[18:56:37] <multichill|work> Ok, this is my stop. I'll read the logs later. Bye
[18:56:56] <bawolff> rillke, multichill|work : Search would be cool, but requires more work to make happen
[18:57:00] <fabriceflorin> OK multichill|work please let us know if you have any recommendations. Bye!
[18:57:25] <zhuyifei1999_> multichill|work: bye
[18:57:53] <rillke> bawolff: But categories should be possible, without a lot of coding, correct?
[18:57:59] <fabriceflorin> multichill|work: One last thing: would you recommend we turn on this new gallery tag by default on Commons sometime next month, after everyone has had a chance to try them out?
[18:58:04] <bawolff> Categories is a one line config change
[18:58:30] <rillke> bawolff: (meant the lazy-load/load on demand-thing / there was a bug somewhere....)
[18:58:45] <JeanFred> bawolff: you got mail :)
[18:58:49] <fabriceflorin> Do people think that it makes sense to provide the new gallery tags on Categories as well?
[18:58:55] <bawolff> Oh, that's slightly more work, would need to make sure things don't get cached and stuff
[18:59:34] <fabriceflorin> OK, folks, any final comments, suggestions or questions before we wrap up this meeting?
[18:59:42] <Ainali> i cannot really decide yet what mode I would like to see as default for categories
[18:59:47] <zhuyifei1999_> special pages
[18:59:55] <bawolff> Currently there's a config variable that controls the default gallery mode, which is used for <gallery>, categories, and special:newfiles
[18:59:58] <fabriceflorin> Are IRC chats like these helpful to you? Should we aim to have one each month? Or is that too much?
[19:00:02] <rillke> fabriceflorin: Yes, please look at the bugs and try hard involving people on the wikis.
[19:00:14] <Ainali> perhaps have the mode for categories in the preferences?
[19:00:14] <rillke> (on the existing feature requests)
[19:00:16] <JeanFred> fabriceflorin: Defintely yes. NOt sure which one would be best though
[19:00:47] <fabriceflorin> rillke: Thanks, we have a big bug scrum this afternoon, and I will post some discussion pages on Commons later this week, so onwiki people can participate as well.
[19:00:54] <JeanFred> What about the concerns for packed-hover with touch devices ?
[19:01:34] <bawolff> JeanFred: On a touch device, packed-hover becomes packed-overlay
[19:01:37] <fabriceflorin> JeanFred: Good point about the packed-hover issue with touch devices. We will bring this up in our next design meeting on Tuesday, to see what the team recommends on that point.
[19:01:56] <fabriceflorin> bawolff: You're two steps ahead of us, thank you!
[19:04:18] <bawolff> JeanFred: For the screenshot you sent me, basically what happens, is the gallery tries to resize the files to fill the row, However it has a cut-off of 1.5 times the size so it doesn't make things too huge
[19:04:31] <bawolff> 'sometimes in rows where there's not a lot of images, it can't fill up the row
[19:04:50] <JeanFred> bawolff: oh, excellent for hover fallback
[19:05:06] <JeanFred> bawolff: fair enough
[19:05:26] <fabriceflorin> Ok folks, thank you sooo much for taking the time to join us today! Your input is always invaluable to us.
[19:05:28] <quiddity> late note of appreciation for the IRC chats, and for the multimedia team. I like the expansive and ever-updating documentation particularly.
[19:05:33] <marktraceur> fabriceflorin: http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/20130822.txt
[19:05:54] <JeanFred> We will have to talk aout making the galleries/categories bigger while we are at it ;)
[19:06:14] <rillke> We have to thank you. It's always nice to see when devs care about the community :-)
[19:06:14] <JeanFred> fabriceflorin: thanks to you!
[19:06:38] <violetto1> thanks for all the input too, what a great session!
[19:06:40] <Steinsplitter> +1 Thank you fabriceflorin :)
[19:06:49] <Steinsplitter> et all :)
[19:06:59] <zhuyifei1999_>  :)
[19:07:03] <fabriceflorin> You're welcome, guys! We thrive on feedback and really like doing the planning with your help, it's so much more effective :)
[19:07:17] <marktraceur> bawolff: https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=IRC_office_hours#2013
[19:08:55] <fabriceflorin> Okay, so my action items are to post the logs later today, start a discussion on Commons and schedule another IRC chat at end of September.
[19:09:03] <fabriceflorin> Anything else for now?
[19:10:40] <fabriceflorin> OK, thanks quiddity, Ainali, zhuyifei1999_, rillke, JeanFred, Steinsplitter and everyone else who contributed to this conversation. See you again onwiki, and in September.
[19:11:19] <zhuyifei1999_> see you
[19:11:26] <marktraceur> Bye all!
[19:11:43] <marktraceur> (I'll be here, but I guess most o' y'all aren't as persistent)
[19:11:53] <JeanFred> Bye !
[19:12:20] <fabriceflorin> Don't forget to add final comments about the MediaViewer on this discussion page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Multimedia/Media_Viewer
[19:12:39] <fabriceflorin> Au revoir et à bientôt!
[19:12:42] * PercyPlush cute look