IRC office hours/Office hours 2014-06-10

Chat on ECT IRC Hours
10 June 2014
1600 - 1700 UTC
01:44 <qgil> #startmeeting Engineering Community office hour - June 2014

01:44 <wm-labs-meetbot> Meeting started Tue Jun 10 16:01:44 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is qgil. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.

01:44 <wm-labs-meetbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.

01:44 <wm-labs-meetbot> The meeting name has been set to 'engineering_community_office_hour___june_2014'

01:48 <qgil> thre

01:55 <qgil> Welcome to the Engineering Community Team monthly meeting

02:02 <qgil> In fact we meet every Tuesday, but once a month we do it here on IRC.

02:09 <qgil> The team: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team

02:17 <qgil> andre__, guillom, sumanah and myself are here to discuss and answer questions in our best capacity.

02:25 <qgil> The open agenda can be found at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team/Meetings/2014-06-10

02:32 <qgil> So far the only point is

02:40 <qgil> Engineering Community team 2014-15 goals after our last quarterly review

02:47 <qgil> If you have more topics, just propose them.

02:54 <qgil> Who is here attending the meeting? Please rise your hand.

03:03 <rfarrand> o/

03:08 <guillom> _o/

03:10 <andre__> |o

03:27 <sumanah> \o

03:45 <qgil> o/

03:54 <qgil> Ok, at least we have team quorum  :)

04:12 <andre__> hehe

04:20 <Amir1> o|

04:28 <Amir1> :D

05:25 <qgil> Today we are using MeetBot, a tool that adds a bit of averhead but produces a lot more usable meeting notes. More at https://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot

05:33 <qgil> Ok, let's start with the main point today:

05:40 <qgil> #topic Engineering Community team 2014-15 goals after our last quarterly review

05:55 <qgil> #info Last Friday the Engineering Community team had its quarterly review.

06:04 <qgil> #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team/June_2014_Quarterly_Review

06:12 <qgil> #info The slides are comprehensive enough; they capture interesting metrics and our masterplan for 2014-15:

06:20 <qgil> #info * A sane developer experience

06:26 <qgil> #info * One deeloper platform

06:33 <qgil> #info * Engage established communities

06:41 <qgil> These are slides 12-14, and then there is also a summary of our next steps in July-September

07:28 <qgil> Just yesterday, we expanded these goals a bit at

07:33 <qgil> #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/2014-15_Goals#Engineering_Community

08:03 <qgil> Alright, this is a bunch of quite new information. Any questions? Any opinions? Time to read?

09:44 <andre__> roughly speaking, plans look pretty good to me, as far as I can judge.  I'd only have two comments later about plans that are in my "court"/responsibility/etc...

10:08 <qgil> Ok, before we get there, Any questions about the three main lines of work (developer experience, one tool, communities)?

10:34 * guillom thinks the plan and focuses make sense.

10:37 <qgil> I mean, do you agree these are the main lines, are we missing something important that should be prioritized over these...?

11:31 <qgil> In fact, at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/2014-15_Goals#Engineering_Community I added a fourth: "Better quality in outreach programs"

11:54 <qgil> but only to reflect that we will keep doing what we are doing at GSoC, OPW, Google Code-in, etc, trying to do better at each iteration.

12:19 <qgil> This was a questions that Erik raised at the quarterly review, and I thought that others could be confused as well thinking that we would be dropping our goals there.

12:45 <andre__> yeah, it's something that "happens anyway", but worth to mention as it's another thing we investigate time on

13:06 <guillom> agreed

13:54 <qgil> Ok, if anybody has general questions about these goals, just go ahead. Let's focus now in the first one.

14:05 <qgil> #topic A sane developer experience

14:35 <qgil> sumanah, this is your main goal. Comments or questions, thoughts you want to share?

14:58 <sumanah> So, I think https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Data_%26_Developer_Hub answers a lot of potential questions

15:22 <sumanah> I will say I'm excited about finishing up my security, architecture, and performance guideline work and getting started on the API stuff in July

16:27 <qgil> sumanah, do you agree with the goals proposed for the next quarter at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/2014-15_Goals#Engineering_Community ?

16:53 <qgil> improvements welcome, I just tried to have a starting point yesterday

17:38 <sumanah> :) "Contribution process defined" - qgil I presume this means the contribution process for developers who want to get their projects mentioned on that page

17:48 <qgil> Rest of participants of this meeting are also encouraged to comment. This project will have a big impact in mediawiki.org and surroundings

18:35 <qgil> sumanah, as of today it is unclear whether this is just a wiki or there will be some kind of moderation / restriction / editorial criteria on what to add, how to improve, etc.

18:53 <sumanah> oh I see what you mean. OK. Sure that's fine.

19:20 <guillom> sumanah: FYI, I told Quim yesterday that if I have bandwidth in July, I'm happy to give a hand on the Data & Developer hub project, particularly around information architecture

19:28 <sumanah> guillom: makes sense! thanks.

19:34 <guillom> sure :)

19:50 <sumanah> In q3 I see "Sane developer experience � UX & doc debt in mediawiki.org" which makes sense to me as well

20:02 <qgil> Also note that we are calling it "Developer Hub", which , as of today, is a debatable proposal with clear implications over https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Developer_hub

21:48 <qgil> In any case, it seems that we have the very basic agreement in place. sumanah you own this area, so you will lead any change in these goals.

21:52 <sumanah> ok

21:56 <qgil> Let's move on.

22:15 <qgil> #topic One development platform

22:26 <qgil> andre__, this is your main goal. Thoughts?

22:45 <andre__> Alright

22:56 <andre__> regarding the items on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/2014-15_Goals#Engineering_Community related to this:

23:12 <andre__> Very clear yes to the first two sub-items (Mukunda is currently working on SUL; Trusted User Tool is also realistic until September), and to Mingle/Trello for Oct-Dec

23:32 <andre__> Third sub-item "Task management enabled for a few teams invited" is also likely, but depends on how safe our data is on an alpha production instance plus migration of Bugzilla IDs/numbers to be the same numbers in Phabricator

23:54 <andre__> Fourth one "Bugzilla content migrated": Currently I don't see this yet as a realistic goal for Sep 2014, as we still have too many question marks to judge the complexity of that task, plus nobody yet investigating the data migration (in parallel to current ongoing work).

23:58 <andre__> Current situation can always change though :)

24:27 <qgil> andre__, well, yes. It's "ambitious".  :)

24:38 <andre__> I agree with that :)

25:07 <qgil> Then again, both Mukunda and Chase are talking about "weeks" referring to their tasks, and both seemed to be more comfortable to work with a deadline

25:08 <andre__> Question is if outsiders reading it also see the ambition between the lines, or expect this to definitely happen :P

25:12 <qgil> So now we have a deadline.

25:17 <andre__> heh, that's true.

25:29 <qgil> But it was mentioned at the quarterly review that it is ambitious.

25:46 <andre__> If that's a shared understanding, I'm fine with it.

25:47 <qgil> If we don't match it, it's fine, as long as we have a good reasoning for it.

26:30 <guillom> BTW the announcement about the plan went out today :) https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/06/10/on-our-way-to-phabricator/

26:38 <andre__> guillom, uh yay, thanks!

26:38 <qgil> Dates are useful, but not somethign to be obsessed about in this specific project.

26:49 <qgil> #link https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/06/10/on-our-way-to-phabricator/

27:17 <andre__> qgil: if that is clear to everybody and if people do not get extremely stressed because of interpreting that as deadlines, alright

27:22 <qgil> guillom, your post made me break my personal strike in social media -- congratulations  :)

27:41 <guillom> qgil: Congratulations, or I'm sorry? :)

27:45 <andre__> :D

27:50 <qgil> :)

27:56 <qgil> ok, anything else?

28:05 <andre__> not for this topic

29:07 <qgil> Alright, let's move on to the next, then.

29:19 <qgil> #topic Engage established communities

30:11 <qgil> This is my main goal. It is less clear than yours when it comes to "definition of done" and measurement, but still it is possible to see the progress -- or lack of it

30:24 <James_F> Please do not ever remove the bit of the /topic that says "DO NOT REMOVE THIS NOTE".

30:34 <qgil> Do you have any questions about the reasoning, goals, strategy...?

30:58 <qgil> James_F, this is MeetBot...

31:13 <sumanah> it's possible to make MeetBot include that bit

31:33 <sumanah> when you set the name of your meeting, include that bit of the topic

31:45 <qgil> ok, lesson learned

32:11 <qgil> about the current topic, questions, other thoughts?

34:15 <guillom> Nothing from me.

34:21 <qgil> Alright, I just want to stress the fact that I'm trying to set common goals with these teams: Global Education Program, Grantmaking, Zero.

34:41 <qgil> Officially or unofficially, as stated at the end of the quarterly goals

35:31 <qgil> And also that the results of our engagement with other communities should have visible impact in our events, our outreach programs and, ultimately, our code repositories.

36:12 <qgil> #topic Better quality in outreach programs

36:37 <qgil> The ownership of this goals is shared, and we will see how exactly.

37:02 <qgil> But no big surprises are expected here, we "just"need to do this better every time.

37:59 <qgil> sumanah, James_F but this will mess the metting notes, isn't it? It is not that bad to survive 1h without that notice and to have nicer meeting notes, isn't it?

38:17 <sumanah> qgil: we gotta have that notice.

38:36 <sumanah> I think it's  a legal compliance issue.

38:57 <andre__> Apart from the common process for GCI being mentioned already, do we want a separate "Successful Google Code-In" item too, seeing GSoC/OPW items?

39:00 <qgil> sumanah, James_F ok, let's discuss when we see the resulting meeting notes

39:22 <Coren> qgil: Hey, btw, what developped from that announcement in Zürich about a hackathon in India?

39:46 <qgil> hi Coren , we can talk about that in a bit.

39:56 * Coren hides as he notices he's on -office not -staff. *blush*

40:21 <qgil> Coren, your question is a good one! Just let us finish the current point.  :)

41:35 <qgil> andre__, I think we can leave Google Code-in goal(s) as it is now, and decide later.

41:44 <qgil> Although, well, either way could be right.

42:03 <qgil> Since GCI is mentioned once, I didn't see the need to mention it again with an evident goal.

42:09 <andre__> understand

42:16 <qgil> We have months to fine tune those quarters.

42:44 <qgil> The important part is that we really need to get that single process for GCI students and any newcomers

43:19 <qgil> Which implies to develop the Bug of the Week idea, etc.

43:46 <andre__> yeah, I need to pick that up again. on the list...

44:18 <qgil> Any comments about this topic? We still have Wikimania highlighted in the next quarter

45:39 <qgil> Let me see if I can keep legal compliance and nice meeting notes...

46:39 <qgil> #topic Wikimania Hackathon

47:30 <qgil> Alright, this is a goal shared between rfarrand and me.

48:08 <qgil> In brief, rfarrand takes care of the infrastructure, on site everything, and coordination with the Wikimania organizers

48:44 <qgil> I will try to handle the content and schedule in the same unconference fashion as we had at the Zürich Hackathon

49:14 <qgil> rfarrand, do you want to comment?

49:42 <rfarrand> everything is on track for a great hackathon & the unconference method worked really well in Zurich :)

50:04 <rfarrand> I visited London a few weeks ago to meet with the WMUK team

50:17 <rfarrand> I have faith in those guys :)

50:36 <qgil> The only big(ger) question mark is the amount and type of newcomers that Wikimania organizers will achieve to get. And what we will do with them.

50:56 <sumanah> I will quibble a little bit and point out that it's like partly unconference, partly scheduled

51:28 <sumanah> but yes, Zurich worked well and a similar thing will work in London I predict

51:30 <rfarrand> sumanah: yes, you are right. especially for the beginner tracks

51:52 <sumanah> for other people reading this who are thinking about how to structure an event:

51:52 <sumanah> If you are planning an event for people who already know and trust each other, and are good at public speaking and collaboration, and are experts in the field, then an unconference might work! But for newbies who are learning not just a new skill, but a new way of thinking? Give them a more familiar structure.

52:04 <sumanah> This is tough for free culture ideologues, because one wants to "be the change you wish to see in the world", and do everything collaboratively, empoweredly, etc. But sometimes the ivy needs a trellis to grow on.

52:26 <qgil> sumanah, well yes, unconference in the sense that we have a grid mostly empty at the beginning of the event.

52:36 <sumanah> anyway this is a derail.

52:50 <qgil> sumanah, yes, probably the solution is to have one track and some DIY activities for newcomers, and then the open grid for the rest.

53:12 <qgil> sumanah, a useful derail in any case.  :)

53:45 <qgil> Ok, if there is nothing else, let's still have a short Q&A to answer to Coren and other questions

53:56 <qgil> (there we go again)

54:44 <qgil> #topic Q&A

55:39 <qgil> #info Coren asks about the results of the discussions about a Wikimedia Hackathon in India at the past Wikimedia Hackathon

55:59 <qgil> The short answer: there is nothing going on as far as I'm aware.

56:05 <qgil> A bit longer:

56:21 <qgil> #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Hackathons

56:40 <qgil> We have a process for anybody to propose a Wikimedia hackathon anywhere.

56:57 <qgil> I have pinged mediawiki-india mailing list a couple of times

57:09 <qgil> There is no proposal on our table, sadly.

57:43 <qgil> I won't insist more... But I will chase any Indian tech contributors I find at Wikimania, chapter and CIS people, etc.

58:13 <qgil> Other questions for these last 2 mins?

59:50 <qgil> Alright, thank you everybody!

59:52 <qgil> #endmeeting