IRC office hours/Office hours 2014-12-03

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[19:00:10] <sjoerddebruin> :D
[19:00:15] <Lydia_WMDE> hey everyone :)
[19:00:22] <Jianhui67|cloud> Hey
[19:00:24] <Lydia_WMDE> time for the wikidata office hour
[19:00:26] <Stryn> Hey
[19:00:27] <dennyvrandecic> hey
[19:00:28] <Lydia_WMDE> who's here for it?
[19:00:34] <Lydia_WMDE> yay! people! :D
[19:00:34] <dennyvrandecic> <--
[19:00:51] <sjoerddebruin> We need to do the formalities first...
[19:01:01] <Lydia_WMDE> oh my :P
[19:01:03] <Lydia_WMDE> which ones?
[19:01:20] <sjoerddebruin> Wasn't there a bot here or something?
[19:01:36] <Lydia_WMDE> yes but i fail at using it...
[19:01:43] <Lydia_WMDE> does anyone know how to use it?
[19:02:00] <Lydia_WMDE> also it seems it is gone
[19:02:06] <sjoerddebruin> nvm then
[19:02:12] <Lydia_WMDE> :)
[19:02:16] <Lydia_WMDE> alright
[19:02:27] <Lydia_WMDE> so big stuff that happened lately:
[19:02:28] <Jianhui67|cloud> I think we need to settle the current problem, deletion vs redirection. Some admins redirect and some delete. I think rfd should be consistent. Either redirect or delete
[19:02:41] <sjoerddebruin> Ehm, deploy today?
[19:02:56] <Lydia_WMDE> heh ok then those first
[19:03:06] <Lydia_WMDE> Jianhui67|cloud: there is an open rfc that needs closing by an admin about this
[19:03:11] <Lydia_WMDE> not sure why it wasn't closed yet
[19:03:21] <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: yes deploy today for statements on properties
[19:03:26] <Jianhui67|cloud> Yep. It has been opened for 2 months
[19:03:29] <sjoerddebruin> Maybe we don't have active uninvolved admins?
[19:03:43] <Lydia_WMDE> possibly
[19:03:46] <Lydia_WMDE> i didn't check
[19:03:48] <sjoerddebruin> Oh, my name is no where on that page.
[19:03:52] <Lydia_WMDE> hah!
[19:04:10] <sjoerddebruin> But never closed a RfC before. :/
[19:04:49] <Lydia_WMDE> ohhhhh
[19:04:51] <Lydia_WMDE> but but but
[19:04:54] <Lydia_WMDE> then it can be your first
[19:04:57] <Lydia_WMDE> exciting! :D
[19:05:17] <sjoerddebruin> Jianhui67|cloud: Have you asked people like Epìdosis why they are still deleting?
[19:05:33] <sjoerddebruin> And Cycn.
[19:05:53] <matej_suchanek> I think its because they simply dont want to loose the rights (due to inactivity)
[19:06:08] <sjoerddebruin> Bad reason...
[19:06:14] <Jianhui67|cloud> Lol
[19:06:27] <matej_suchanek> yeah ... btw hi Lydia
[19:06:30] <Jianhui67|cloud> Cycn already showed his disagreements
[19:06:45] <Lydia_WMDE> hey matej_suchanek :)
[19:07:00] <sjoerddebruin> Oh yes, I can't find Cycn because of the stupid signature.
[19:07:01] -*- DanielK_WMDE wibbles
[19:07:02] <Lydia_WMDE> Jianhui67|cloud: what did they say?
[19:07:06] <Jianhui67|cloud> I told some of the people who request deletion to redirect instead of requesting deletion
[19:07:45] <Lydia_WMDE> cool
[19:08:09] <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: do you feel like you can/want to close the rfc or should we see if we find someone else?
[19:08:37] <sjoerddebruin> I don't think I'm neutral anymore. :/
[19:09:15] <Lydia_WMDE> fair enough
[19:09:36] <Lydia_WMDE> Jianhui67|cloud: want to find another admin then? or post it on the admin noticeboard?
[19:09:47] <matej_suchanek> good idea
[19:09:48] <Jianhui67|cloud> Stryn, why don't you do it
[19:09:56] <Jianhui67|cloud> Or matej_suchanek
[19:10:20] <sjoerddebruin> There is also a backlog regarding property deletions.
[19:10:22] <matej_suchanek> I was involed into it and I have never closed an RfC before
[19:10:34] <sjoerddebruin> I think it's a good point to start 2015 clean.
[19:11:52] <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: is the issue a lack of discussion about the properties or about making the decision and doing it?
[19:12:32] <sjoerddebruin> There is enough discussion, but many people participated.
[19:12:54] <Lydia_WMDE> i see
[19:13:39] <sjoerddebruin> And I'm very busy with all backlogs...
[19:13:44] <Lydia_WMDE> *nod*
[19:13:50] <Lydia_WMDE> thanks for working on those!
[19:14:10] <sjoerddebruin> I sometimes think I'm the only one that is beating vandalism.
[19:14:17] <matej_suchanek> oh I have just reminded...
[19:14:24] <Jianhui67|cloud> I'm lazy :p
[19:14:36] <Jianhui67|cloud> Lazy to do anything lol
[19:14:37] <jzerebecki> mh the merge gadged has "Request deletion for extra item on RfD" as a default, probably should be changed when that RfC is closed
[19:14:44] <Lydia_WMDE> Jianhui67|cloud: how about becoming unlazy and posting about the rfc on admin noticeboard? :D
[19:14:54] <Jianhui67|cloud> Sure
[19:14:57] <Lydia_WMDE> \o/
[19:15:11] <Lydia_WMDE> jzerebecki: adaption already in progress i think according to project chat
[19:15:19] <matej_suchanek> the filter 32 (Special:AbuseFilter/32) doesn't work anymore, same issue as with the redirects
[19:15:35] <Lydia_WMDE> matej_suchanek: which one is that?
[19:15:49] <matej_suchanek> tagging merging items
[19:15:53] <sjoerddebruin> Uncompleted merges:
[19:16:14] <matej_suchanek> it's been so since September 30th
[19:16:36] <Lydia_WMDE> matej_suchanek: is this something the dev team can/has to fix? what's the issue?
[19:17:14] <matej_suchanek> I don't know but there was a bug that the AF couldn't tag creating redirects
[19:17:23] <Lydia_WMDE> ahhhh
[19:17:26] <matej_suchanek> even if there was everything correct
[19:17:26] <Lydia_WMDE> i remember
[19:17:32] <Lydia_WMDE> let me search for that
[19:17:42] <matej_suchanek> and I see this is a similar issue
[19:18:19] <Lydia_WMDE>
[19:18:25] <Lydia_WMDE> ok i'll bump this one
[19:18:36] <matej_suchanek> thanks
[19:18:38] <Lydia_WMDE> np
[19:19:37] <Lydia_WMDE> other things we should talk about?
[19:19:52] <matej_suchanek> maybe I have one more question
[19:19:57] <Lydia_WMDE> shoot
[19:20:15] <Jianhui67|cloud> Done!
[19:20:38] <Lydia_WMDE> Jianhui67|cloud: \o/
[19:21:15] <matej_suchanek> it's quite complex
[19:21:33] <matej_suchanek> it's related to enforcing constraints
[19:21:37] <Lydia_WMDE> we can handle it :P
[19:21:39] <Lydia_WMDE> ok
[19:23:21] <Jianhui67|cloud> I also realise from RfD, there seems to be a problem with creating redirects from there.
[19:23:23] <matej_suchanek> basically you have once on the Project Chat stated that if there is an inverse constraint the system wouldn't handle it by making two same edits to both items
[19:23:44] <Lydia_WMDE> yeah
[19:23:54] <matej_suchanek> this was something I had imagined how it should work
[19:24:29] <matej_suchanek> for example both statements would have the same reference(s), qualifiers etc.
[19:25:06] <matej_suchanek> what was the reason not to go this way?
[19:25:09] <Lydia_WMDE> right
[19:25:13] <matej_suchanek> just asking
[19:25:19] <Lydia_WMDE> sure :)
[19:25:29] <Lydia_WMDE> this is what this office hour is for, right? ;-)
[19:25:36] <matej_suchanek> yeah
[19:25:44] <Lydia_WMDE> anyway: the reason is that the world is unfortunately complicated
[19:26:10] <Lydia_WMDE> and while in most cases inverse properties might actually be inverse there are still those special cases that are "different"
[19:26:28] <Lydia_WMDE> just like we don't specify that sex/gender can only be male and female
[19:26:36] <Lydia_WMDE> because obviously the world is more complex than that
[19:26:39] <Lydia_WMDE> however!
[19:26:51] <Lydia_WMDE> we can still build clever tools to help
[19:27:18] <matej_suchanek> ok .. by the way, how's the team doing?
[19:27:23] <Lydia_WMDE> for the sex/gender case we are going to build out the suggester so it suggests the most common values first while still letting you enter other things
[19:27:38] <dennyvrandecic> may I add to the answer to the inverse question a bit?
[19:27:58] <Lydia_WMDE> and for inverse properties we can simply give the user a small hint saying "this seems to be an inverse property. would you like to also add it to the other item?" or something like that
[19:27:58] <matej_suchanek> yes
[19:28:10] <Lydia_WMDE> dennyvrandecic: please :)
[19:28:20] <dennyvrandecic> imagine the inverse of "country"
[19:28:31] <dennyvrandecic> or of "nationality", to be a bit more specific
[19:29:09] <dennyvrandecic> if every statement with a country property added to any song, movie, building, etc. would lead to a respective edit on the object of that statement, ...
[19:29:12] <dennyvrandecic> ... we would be in trouble
[19:29:29] <Lydia_WMDE> hah that too!
[19:29:37] <dennyvrandecic> the items for Germany, Russia, United States are already quite rich
[19:29:46] <dennyvrandecic> but that's nothing compared to the number of inverses they would sport
[19:30:16] <Scott_WUaS> (Hello All)
[19:30:26] <dennyvrandecic> matej_suchanek: does that make sense?
[19:30:29] <hweyl> I like the idea of the small hint
[19:30:40] <matej_suchanek> me too
[19:31:04] <Lydia_WMDE> sweet
[19:31:19] <dennyvrandecic> I think there should be, once we have simple queries up and running, a link to "show me all items that have a statement with this as an object and the property P"
[19:31:22] <Lydia_WMDE> there are quite a few cases where we can be smarter like this
[19:31:34] <dennyvrandecic> that would resolve your usecase in most cases
[19:31:35] <Lydia_WMDE> if you can think of some that would be useful do file tickets or tell me
[19:31:59] <dennyvrandecic> not in all use cases, but in most - e.g. reflexive properties are not handled well, still
[19:32:04] <dennyvrandecic> but these are fortunately rare
[19:32:07] <matej_suchanek> dennyvrandecic: the explanation makes sence for me but the mentioned nationality is not an inverse property so there can't be a problem ... or did I misunderstand you?
[19:32:19] <sjoerddebruin> Lydia_WMDE: When will I be able to view Wikidata on mobile?
[19:32:33] <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: ahhh asking the painful questions :D
[19:32:34] <dennyvrandecic> no, but the property "nationality" would have an inverse, like "citizen" or sth
[19:32:46] <sjoerddebruin> It's almost 2015. :)
[19:32:47] <dennyvrandecic> matej_suchanek: ^
[19:32:59] <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: i can't give you a specific date but we'll make progress with the new UI on that
[19:33:01] <dennyvrandecic> sjoerddebruin: as soon as there are devs to do it :P
[19:33:39] <dennyvrandecic> why not start an Open Source alternative Wikidata app? I wanted to do some Android deving anyway :)
[19:33:54] <Lydia_WMDE> having an app would be cool
[19:34:16] <sjoerddebruin> I'm also dreaming of a working nearby page on Wikidata. ;)
[19:34:25] <dennyvrandecic> matej_suchanek: another issue is that a reasonable inverse might sometimes depend on the actual domain and range
[19:34:28] <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: there is a tool for that
[19:34:37] <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: let me see if i can find it
[19:34:56] <dennyvrandecic> matej_suchanek: the property country is currently used on movies, songs, albums, buildings, mountains, etc. it is hard to figure out a good inverse for that
[19:35:20] <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin:
[19:35:22] <dennyvrandecic> matej_suchanek: but it would be a pity to create incentives to create only properties that have a good inverse
[19:35:33] <matej_suchanek> I meant that not all properties need an inverse
[19:35:36] <sjoerddebruin> Why is it German? :(
[19:35:56] <sjoerddebruin> It's broken.
[19:35:59] <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: you can poke johl on twitter to translate it ;-)
[19:36:04] <dennyvrandecic> matej_suchanek: true, but there would be task forces to make inverses for all properties ;)
[19:36:12] <Lydia_WMDE> it is working for me
[19:36:24] <matej_suchanek> the tool is nice anyway
[19:36:29] <sjoerddebruin> Will try the iOS-simulator then.
[19:36:33] <Lydia_WMDE> k
[19:36:50] <sjoerddebruin> Nothing...
[19:36:58] <Lydia_WMDE> hmmmm
[19:37:11] <Lydia_WMDE> are you giving it permission to read your location? i missed that first
[19:37:18] <sjoerddebruin> Yup.
[19:37:27] <jzerebecki> dennyvrandecic: i'm totally for getting rid of all inverses ;) its redundant data
[19:37:28] <Stryn> WONTFIX, works for me ;)
[19:37:50] <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: hmm then i don't know sorry
[19:38:24] <sjoerddebruin> But we have :D
[19:38:46] <Lydia_WMDE> ah that also works ;-)
[19:39:01] <sjoerddebruin> The Netherlands is crowdy because of all the monuments. :)
[19:39:30] <Lydia_WMDE> nice! :D
[19:39:46] <sjoerddebruin> I once had the idea to put locations of Subway restaurants, Starbucks, etc. on Wikidata...
[19:40:29] <sjoerddebruin> So we can become a good POI-provider.
[19:41:32] <Lydia_WMDE> that might be a bit too much and better left to openstreetmap? :)
[19:42:15] <jzerebecki> we are still missing a property to link to stuff on osm that is not a relation there
[19:42:15] <sjoerddebruin> Me and my crazy ideas...
[19:42:27] <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: <3
[19:43:04] <jzerebecki> Lydia_WMDE: otoh wikivoyage probably has many of those POIs already...
[19:43:14] <dennyvrandecic> sjoerddebruin: but that would need an item for each starbucks?
[19:43:27] <sjoerddebruin> dennyvrandecic: Probally. :P
[19:43:39] <dennyvrandecic> I don't think that's a wacky idea
[19:44:20] <sjoerddebruin> We also need a business hours property then. :/
[19:44:27] <dennyvrandecic> I actually think it would be pretty awesome. Although I would start not with Starbuckses, but "all schools", "all museums", etc.
[19:44:50] <dennyvrandecic> we have a not too bad coverage for these in some places already
[19:44:59] <Lydia_WMDE> yeah
[19:45:17] <dennyvrandecic> all libraries
[19:45:58] <dennyvrandecic> that would be rather neat
[19:46:04] <matej_suchanek> long time ago, I got a crazy idea
[19:46:14] <dennyvrandecic> matej_suchanek: I'd love to hear it
[19:46:40] <matej_suchanek> as a user, you can have a sandbox but that's only for wikitext
[19:46:56] <matej_suchanek> what about having a sandbox item in the user namespace?
[19:47:08] <sjoerddebruin> I have a file with a lot of schools in the Netherlands, sadly no license is noted.
[19:47:11] <Lydia_WMDE> there is a sanbox item already in the main namespace
[19:47:33] <matej_suchanek> I know
[19:47:58] <dennyvrandecic> data licenses suck :(
[19:48:10] <matej_suchanek> as I said, it was a crazy idea
[19:48:13] <sjoerddebruin> Sailing schools are public domain. XD
[19:48:30] <Lydia_WMDE> matej_suchanek: not crazy ;-)
[19:48:45] <matej_suchanek> sorry, leaving for a while
[19:49:01] <sjoerddebruin> The best public domain dataset I've found is about gas stations. With coords and all.
[19:49:16] <dennyvrandecic> gas stations? which area?
[19:49:22] <sjoerddebruin> Netherlands.
[19:49:59] <Lydia_WMDE> (10 mins left)
[19:50:34] <Lydia_WMDE> any other topics we should discuss still?
[19:51:38] <Lydia_WMDE> ok then i'll give a quick list of things the dev team has been working on lately:
[19:51:56] <Lydia_WMDE> * performance improvements - some are already live but more are coming
[19:52:10] <Lydia_WMDE> * UI redesign - currently the sitelink section is still being worked on
[19:52:22] <Lydia_WMDE> * statements on properties - to be rolled out tonight
[19:52:35] <Lydia_WMDE> * language fallbacks - first version to be rolled out in a week or two
[19:52:55] <Lydia_WMDE> * arbitrary access and usage tracking - coming early next year - rollout will be staged
[19:53:57] <Lydia_WMDE> * started working with the team of students to work on data quality tools - they are concentrating on constraint violations and reports as well as checking against 3rd party databases
[19:54:03] <matej_suchanek> back again
[19:54:05] <Lydia_WMDE> up next:
[19:54:13] <Lydia_WMDE> * finishing the above
[19:54:18] <dennyvrandecic> rough idea on the stages for the arbacces?
[19:54:19] <Lydia_WMDE> * working with the Foundation on queries
[19:54:41] <Lydia_WMDE> * more work on data quality tools
[19:54:47] <Lydia_WMDE> * units
[19:54:55] <sjoerddebruin> Units <3
[19:55:04] <Lydia_WMDE> dennyvrandecic: commons, small wikipedias, big wikipedias, other projects maybe?
[19:55:21] <dennyvrandecic> sweet
[19:55:41] <dennyvrandecic> what about wikidata, commons, ... ?
[19:55:49] <Lydia_WMDE> ?
[19:55:55] <dennyvrandecic> wikidata should be the most friendly place to start this arbaccess
[19:56:02] <dennyvrandecic> and they won't need it that much
[19:56:10] <Lydia_WMDE> oh it already has it! (just without purging)
[19:56:28] <Lydia_WMDE> we endabled that a while ago because there were bad hacks to make it work anyway
[19:56:37] <dennyvrandecic> ah, ok, so it will be the first place to get tracking and purging anyway?
[19:56:39] <dennyvrandecic> good idea
[19:56:42] <Lydia_WMDE> yeah
[19:56:56] <dennyvrandecic> so it can be tested there, and then it goes to commons, who will really benefit from this
[19:57:00] <dennyvrandecic> and the smaller wikipedias
[19:57:00] <Lydia_WMDE> right
[19:57:04] <dennyvrandecic> awesome
[19:57:17] <dennyvrandecic> and agree with sjoerddebruin: units <3
[19:57:20] <Lydia_WMDE> :D
[19:57:26] <Lydia_WMDE> all <3 units
[19:57:29] <Jianhui67|cloud> Stryn closed the rfc
[19:57:33] <Lydia_WMDE> \o/
[19:57:34] <matej_suchanek> so the arbacc deployment will be split?
[19:57:45] <matej_suchanek> wow!!!
[19:57:46] <Lydia_WMDE> matej_suchanek: yeah because we need to see how it scales
[19:57:48] <Scott_WUaS> sjoerddebruin:, dennyvrandecic: Might I add please add / contribute at some point to this conversation some CC wiki link resources planned for first for large languages, focusing on Sailing schools, All Museums, All Libraries as part of a CC all 7, 106 languages, MIT OCW-centric open wiki World University and School, which is like Wikipedia with MIT OCW ?
[19:58:08] <matej_suchanek> Lydia_WMDE: right
[19:58:23] <dennyvrandecic> Scott_WUaS: yes, sure, go ahead, it's an open forum
[19:58:27] <matej_suchanek> every big change goes first to small projects
[19:58:53] <dennyvrandecic> maybe even small wikipedia before commons
[19:59:00] <Lydia_WMDE> *nod*
[19:59:10] <dennyvrandecic> because commons can (and should!) go crayz with arbacc!
[19:59:15] <dennyvrandecic> *crazy
[19:59:15] <Lydia_WMDE> hehe true
[19:59:19] <matej_suchanek> Stryn, many thanks to you
[19:59:43] <Scott_WUaS> Thanks ... still only in English, but planned for large languages and for wiki teaching and learning - here's the beginning wiki Sailing subject / school -
[19:59:44] <Stryn> it wasn't so hard than I expected
[19:59:54] <Lydia_WMDE> thanks Stryn!
[19:59:55] <matej_suchanek> lol
[19:59:59] <sjoerddebruin> it's time :D
[20:00:13] <matej_suchanek> yeah it was very short :/
[20:00:14] <Jianhui67|cloud> It's 3am over here xD
[20:00:19] <Scott_WUaS> Library Resources planned to aggregate all open online libraries in each of all languages -
[20:00:38] <Lydia_WMDE> thanks everyone for coming! :) as always if you want to chat more come to #wikidata
[20:00:54] <Lydia_WMDE> was good to chat with you all
[20:00:57] <Lydia_WMDE> <3
[20:01:01] <Scott_WUaS> Museums wiki subject page - planned to aggregate all open online museums in each of all languages
[20:01:07] <Scott_WUaS> Thanks, Lydia!
[20:01:16] <Lydia_WMDE> thanks Scott_WUaS!
[20:01:41] <matej_suchanek> see you on #wikidata
[20:01:47] <dennyvrandecic> thanks Lydia_WMDE
[20:02:06] <Lydia_WMDE> always
[20:02:11] <Scott_WUaS> Thanks member:dennyvrandecic and member:sjoerddebruin
[20:02:38] <dennyvrandecic> Now I feel like in a socialist cadre, being called a member :D
[20:02:53] <Lydia_WMDE> haha
[20:03:12] <Scott_WUaS> I removed the colon and these technologies printed member :)