IRC office hours/Office hours 2017-03-22
Chat on Office Hour and Google Hangout online round table session
22 March 2017
13:00 - 14:00 UTC
13:00:21 <kart_> #startmeeting Language Team office hour - March 2017
13:00:21 <wm-labs-meetbot> Meeting started Wed Mar 22 13:00:21 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is kart_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:00:21 <wm-labs-meetbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
13:00:21 <wm-labs-meetbot> The meeting name has been set to 'language_team_office_hour___march_2017'
13:00:34 <kart_> Welcome to the online+IRC office of the WMF Language team
13:00:40 <kart_> Our main conversation is happening on Google Hangout/youtube:
13:00:49 <kart_> #link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DWXTRl5ZEk
13:00:56 <kart_> Please let us know if you would like to join on the hangout
13:01:04 <kart_> We will also be taking questions here
13:01:13 <kart_> Reminder that the logs of this channel will be recorded and posted on meta wiki
13:01:16 <Ziko> hi
13:01:20 <kart_> The recording from the last meeting is at:
13:01:28 <kart_> #link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2PgVNSmohE
13:01:33 <kart_> and logs are at:
13:01:39 <kart_> #link https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours/Office_hours_2016-12-07
13:02:26 <kart_> Today we will be covering a feature to improve interlanguage navigation on wiki called Compact Language Links
13:02:37 <kart_> You can find more information on wiki about this feature
13:02:43 <kart_> #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Universal_Language_Selector/Compact_Language_Links
13:02:50 <kart_> Compact Language Links was a beta feature since 2014 and since mid of 2016 this has been rolled out to most wikis.
13:02:56 <kart_> During this process we are also collecting feedback for subsequent improvements
13:03:32 <kart_> We are going to present some observations and other data that we have been collecting during this time
13:03:40 <kart_> If you have any questions please ask us here and we will address them either on IRC or in the main session.
13:04:18 <aharoni> hallo
13:05:03 <kart_> hello :)
13:07:47 <Nikerabbit> hej!
13:08:04 <arrbee> hello again
13:09:52 <Ziko> hi - can i already choose the languages I want?
13:10:49 <Ziko> i have installed the beta feature, but when I click on "x languages more" and then on a proposed language, I get immediately the whole list of languages in my left side bar
13:11:14 <arrbee> Ziko: Pau is addressing your question now
13:11:22 <Ziko> thanks
13:12:33 <Ziko> ? does this mean that my surfing behavior on WP is tracked?
13:13:34 <jeblad> The present solution to set the users preferred languages are to difficult to understand
13:14:39 <jeblad> Updating languages through CLDR takes way to much time, in a few cases it has taken more than half a year
13:14:42 <Ziko> thanks amir
13:15:39 <Ziko> i still don't know how to select exactly those languages i want in my left side bar and which not. i have enabled the beta feature in en.wp and de.wp
13:16:53 <arrbee> Ziko: we can show you on screen if that is helpful
13:17:06 <Ziko> thanks
13:23:49 <Ziko> well, for me it's simple: i want to see the languages i understand, and i don't want to see the languages i don't understand. i don't care for "featured articles" in languages i don't understand.
13:24:13 <jeblad> The process for CLDR is basically broken, use some other source http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/9651
13:24:51 <arrbee> I will pass on the questions right after Amir's presentation is done
13:26:26 <arrbee> Ziko: you may most likely not see any languages based on featured articles, if there are enough languages filling in the list that you already understand or are relevant due to a more important criteria
13:28:19 <Ziko> This article https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Germany gives me lt, which is marked as "featured"
13:28:31 <jeblad> This is the ticket about Kvensk which is official language in Norway, I wrote this is july http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/9648
13:29:25 <arrbee> Ziko: does the list miss any important language that you think should ideally have been in there?
13:29:38 <arrbee> Ziko: for that article
13:29:46 <Ziko> yes, eo and la, on the other hand i don't need/want tr
13:30:17 <Ziko> the language i want does not relate in any way to the content of the article. i don't want the article about the turkish president in tr, as i simply don't understand tr.
13:31:21 <Ziko> should i ever want tr about the turkish president, i would click on "more languages". but likely, i would approach that tr article anyway via Google translator.
13:31:26 <jeblad> Note that Kvensk and other small languages have no interest in CLL, but the same problem exists for larger languages
13:31:31 <arrbee> Ziko: okay. You can swap them in by clicking on them from the bigger dialog by clicking 'more languages'. But we are also going to improve language selection. Amir is collecting such examples to better understand the gaps.
13:32:26 <Ziko> and i just clicked on "more languages" and saw "proposed languages". when i clicked on lt, i remained on the same en article, but my ui changed to lt.
13:32:52 <arrbee> jeblad: I am reading your messages but may not be able to reply appropriately hence I will pass this on in a few minutes. Sorry if it looks like I am ignoring your messages. I most definitely am not.
13:33:30 <jeblad> No problem arrbee, I'll been waiting for 8 months… :D
13:33:37 <arrbee> :D
13:33:50 <arrbee> We definitely do not want to contribute to that wait
13:34:16 <qunow> Some personal opinion about CLDR: it can be used to reflect how many people learnt to write the language, but it cannot how many people would understand other languages due to intelligentibility of different languages due to their similarity.
13:34:26 <Ziko> could you make your screen a little bigger? the screen is blurry
13:34:27 <jeblad> If I understand what was said, then Frederico has provided a fix
13:34:47 <jeblad> Ziko, use the options in Youtube
13:35:25 <Ziko> yes, but still it is small to see when i have the irc browser too on my screen
13:35:25 <aharoni> qunow: CLDR maintainers usually asks for _some_ published statistics, and they are flexible about what it is about: speech, writing, etc.
13:35:31 <Ziko> thanks, better
13:35:40 <arrbee> Ziko: okay, thanks
13:36:45 <Ziko> exactly that did not happen when i clicked on a language - the ui changed
13:37:12 <Ziko> i just tried that with eo but it did not appear in the side bar list
13:37:42 <Ziko> oh yes now i see it - but i was send to the eo page
13:37:51 <Ziko> that is really confusing
13:38:06 <Ziko> and why can't i simply tell to my wp account: these are my languages?
13:38:10 <jeblad> Most of the discussion on nowiki tended to be about languages shown to readers not logged in
13:38:46 <Ziko> and do i have to do this maneuvre in EVERY language version in which i have an account?
13:38:55 <qunow> aharoni: I mean, in CLDR's territory language info page, it is said that "The literacy rate may be discounted to reflect the actual usage of the written form in normal daily life. Thus languages that are typically not written, such as Swiss German, will be given a low literacy rate, even though the whole population could write in Swiss German. ". This also appllies to languages that the population can read due to similarity
13:40:47 <Ziko> how can i get tr out of my language list?
13:41:40 <jeblad> The language set should be changed implicitly according to opened pages, explicitly chosing a language should only be a fallback
13:41:50 <qunow> For instance, Indonesian and Malaysian can probably understand each others' language very well, but currently the CLDR data only reflect the population in each country that have officially learnt and understand each others' language. Thus the understandability due to similarity is not reflected in CLDR data. This is out of scope of CLDR but imo should be considered for wikipedia language link.
13:42:45 <Ziko> I live in NL, where tr but also ar is spoken. i don't see ar in the list.
13:43:22 <Ziko> so i would find a trick to give more relevance to some languages. but i don't see simple in the list although i often read it.
13:43:38 <jeblad> The list should adapt, now it is fixed…
13:44:53 <Ziko> actually, i clicked on "more languages" in order to add simple, but i cannot find it. (it is on the en article "Germany", which exists in simple.)
13:45:16 <Ziko> amir, which low saxon is in NL? nds or nds-nl?
13:45:36 <Ziko> there are more arabs (maroccans and others) in NL than turks... strange.
13:46:09 <aharoni> Ziko: nds.
13:46:11 <Ziko> my browser (ff) has only DE, US EN and EN indicating as languages.
13:46:23 <Ziko> amir: in NL they speak nds-nl, not nds. strange.
13:46:29 <arrbee> Ziko: perhaps online content searched/read/accessed etc. is more for Turkish from Netherlands?
13:46:37 <Ziko> I cannot tell my browser that i want simple, right?
13:46:53 <Ziko> arrbee : good idea.
13:47:24 <Ziko> sorry guys, i don't want to consume all of your time. but this is were i stand. i understand some things better now.
13:47:27 <jeblad> Polish, Swedish, and Russian in Norway du to imigration
13:47:35 <Ziko> amir : thanks
13:47:40 <qunow> Let me simplify my question a bit: in Malaysia, most people speak Malay, which is intellegible to Indonesian. However, Malaysian people themselve does not speak Malay themselves and thus CLDR for Malaysia does not and should not have id despite they can understand Indonesian. This situation is not unique to ms-id but also to many other language, what's the current mechanism to this?
13:48:07 <Ziko> nds was usually one wp, but the nl-nds split from that one.
13:48:26 <Ziko> simple english - i often use it, but i guess FF does not know about such a thing.
13:49:22 <Ziko> great amir - i just checked but there is no simple in FF by now.
13:50:12 <Ziko> great point qunow - there are certainly a lot of cases like that in the world
13:52:31 <Ziko> right, amir - scandinavians have that prios. i wondered what became of that since the abolishion of interwiki links.
13:52:38 <jeblad> Norwegians understand other Scandinavian languages quite well
13:52:44 <jeblad> So yes
13:53:04 <arrbee> qunow: does that answer your question?
13:53:48 <Ziko> as the IP of my browsing is considered, that means that when i go to france, i have different languages in the list?
13:53:53 <qunow> humm i see
13:54:29 <qunow> (the interenet have some delay here)
13:54:36 <arrbee> qunow: ah ok
13:54:52 <Ziko> i could add some more languages in my FF, but that would mean that i would inform every website i surf about my personal preferences.
13:55:22 <Ziko> i'd really prefer to tell my WP account which languages i want.
13:55:51 <jeblad> To much focus on logged in users, the discussion on nowiki was for users not logged in
13:56:16 <Ziko> i cant
13:56:24 <Ziko> i just tried to add simpe english, but it is not possible.
13:57:02 <jeblad> I can nag Amir later on ;)
13:57:12 <qunow> btw i think manyb mobile browsers like chrome for android does not support setting multiple languages for browser.
13:57:20 <arrbee> Ziko: on the Compact Links dialogue? If the article exists in Simple, it should show up on that dialogue
13:57:22 <Ziko> i am on en article "Germany" right now. i click on "more languages". but in the list there, there appears no simple.
13:57:29 <arrbee> Ziko: let me check
13:57:33 <Ziko> "Germany" does exist in simple.
13:58:31 <jeblad> Not sure if this is what users at nowiki experienced?
13:58:40 <Ziko> strange - but never mind. in general, the
13:58:54 <Ziko> ways of the selector are not quit satisfying for me.
13:59:11 <Ziko> amir - i just saw that i already was on simple, not en. that's why
13:59:28 <Ziko> my fault.
14:00:04 <Ziko> but that means that when i am already on simple i cannot add it from there. i have to go to a different language version... it is a lot of clicking.
14:00:37 <Ziko> the segmentation in "worldwide", "america" etc. is usually not very useful to me.
14:00:49 <kart_> Thanks all. We're ending meeting now.
14:00:53 <Ziko> thanks guys, i see what did not work because of what.
14:00:54 <aharoni> the search box should be useful for that
14:01:00 <jeblad> Note that the discussion was 8 months ago on nowiki
14:01:33 <kart_> #endmeeting
session video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DWXTRl5ZEk