IRC office hours/Office hours 2019-01-10

[18:00:37] <Keegan> #startmeeting Structured Data on Commons
[18:01:02] <Keegan> Welcome everyone, to our IRC office hour for SDC
[18:01:21] <RexxS> Hi Keegan
[18:01:23] <Keegan> Hmm, meetbot isn't behaving
[18:01:42] <RexxS> well you know how technology is
[18:01:54] <AntiComposite> Someone go turn it off and turn it back on again :)
[18:02:02] <Keegan> #startmeeting Structured Data on Commons
[18:02:04] <Keegan> Meh well
[18:02:08] <Keegan> We'll be fine
[18:02:10] <Keegan> Anwyay
[18:02:11] <RexxS> are you reading from a script?
[18:02:15] <Keegan> Nope
[18:02:24] <James_F> There's a script?
[18:02:27] <RexxS> I meant AntiComposite
[18:02:43] <Keegan> So, we have our first feature release for SDC, multilingual file captions
[18:02:47] <RexxS> that's what you always get when support talks to you
[18:02:50] <Keegan> Just went out a little over an hour ago
[18:03:06] <Keegan> There's some new stuff later this month, depicts testing and later release
[18:03:11] <Keegan> What would we like to talk about?
[18:04:02] <RexxS> roadmap
[18:04:11] <Keegan> Good one, roadmap
[18:04:17] <Keegan> We can talk about that
[18:04:25] <Keegan> Any other suggested topics before we get into that one?
[18:05:17] <Keegan> Okay, risler is writing something out on the roadmap
[18:06:18] <risler> Regarding roadmap - captions for now, depicts statements (hopefully) within the next few weeks, then "other statements" which enable the full structured data functionality. Interspersed with all that will be bug fixes, design iterations, and integration of general feedback.
[18:07:01] <RexxS> maybe we can have that on a page somewhere
[18:07:09] <Keegan> ...and that takes us through March?
[18:07:47] <Keegan> Spring into early summer, designs for the next set of features
[18:07:48] <risler> we have a roadmap page on the Structured Data project page, but it does need some updates (things are constantly in flux)
[18:07:54] <RexxS> looking further ahead, are we considering how third-parties might use captions?
[18:08:43] <risler> yes, we are looking into re-use scenarios for structured data in general, and may have a design research project for that coming up
[18:10:06] <RexxS> ah good. Perhaps we can canvass editors for their ideas and input when that comes into the frame
[18:10:29] <AntiComposite> Will we be able to use structured information from Commons on other wikis like we can with Wikidata?
[18:10:42] <Spinster> With my volunteer hat on, I'm wondering whether as a community we want to establish some best practices for writing captions, so that they are indeed as useful as possible
[18:10:45] <AntiComposite> Like automatically filling the caption in a thumbnail, for example?
[18:11:49] <Spinster> For reusers, for search, etc. Being into GLAM I'd definitely like to see best practices for captions of images of artworks
[18:12:14] <AntiComposite> I agree, we (the community) should define what a SDoC caption should contain
[18:12:29] <risler> yes indeed. users will be able to integrate structured data from Commons onto other Wikis. There will also be APIs that help facilitate that (more to come once we polish the feature a bit).
[18:12:34] <addshore> Will we be able to filter recent changes to show or not show the file caption changes?
[18:13:20] <Keegan> Re-use on other wikis is a feature request for captions from language community wikis that don't have the resources to caption their own images
[18:13:42] <Keegan> Commons:Captions might be a good start
[18:14:02] <RexxS> Can I suggest that the caption is either available via a Lua extension or as a "magic word" (or both)?
[18:14:27] <risler> we are working on the filter strategy for all structured data fields. that *might* be a part of the depicts release, if not then as part of the other statements release
[18:14:31] <Keegan> Perhaps Commons:File captions
[18:14:38] <AntiComposite> From an accessability perspective, being able to automatically/quickly apply descriptive alt text to every instance of an image would be very helpful for those with screen readers and plain-text browsers
[18:14:48] <Spinster> (Commons:Captions is now a redirect to Timed Text)
[18:14:56] <RexxS> For use on English Wikipedia, we'd need to supplement the caption with local text
[18:14:57] <Keegan> There is a help page on mw.org that can be ported over to Commons https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:File_captions
[18:15:11] <Keegan> The screenshots can be changed as needed
[18:15:46] <RexxS> Indeed AntiComposite - but there needs to be a distinction betwen captions and alt text
[18:15:54] <AntiComposite> Yes
[18:16:18] <Keegan> RexxS: how or if the English Wikipedia could/would supplement captions from Commons is up to en.wiki
[18:16:41] <RexxS> not if the caption arives "automatically"
[18:16:43] <Keegan> There are no plans to just "turn it on" for enwiki like labels for Wikidata on mobile caused a kerfuffle a few months ago
[18:16:57] <Keegan> RexxS: right, we're not going to up and do that
[18:17:03] <RexxS> Thank you
[18:17:53] <AntiComposite> Automatically as "not having to type it in individually" not "by default"
[18:18:32] <Keegan> Both? From our (WMF/SDC team) perspective
[18:19:29] <Keegan> It's up to the communities to implement. I guess the point from us is that we're not going to do it on our own out of no-where :)
[18:19:57] <Keegan> What else might we have to discuss?
[18:20:03] * Keegan scrolls up to see if he missed anythin
[18:20:04] <Keegan> g
[18:20:43] <RexxS> Having alt text as SDoC would be a great step forward
[18:21:52] <RexxS> most images will want different captions depending on the article; but the alt text will usually be independent of the article
[18:21:52] <Keegan> I think we're up for it if the community wants it, it's a matter of figuring out a user's language and serving it...but it's also something that the community can do, I think
[18:21:58] <Keegan> A gadget can make it happen
[18:22:11] <Keegan> (otherwise there's going to be some waiting on our end to make it)
[18:22:24] <James_F> RexxS: A generic caption is better than none, however.
[18:22:43] <RexxS> that's okay = it's worth waiting for useful extra functionality
[18:23:17] <James_F> (E.g. the English Wikipedia may have the number of editors sufficient to write custom captions everywhere, but smaller wikis may find it more useful.)
[18:23:57] <RexxS> Indeed James_F and I'd be pleased to see the generic caption available as easily as possible
[18:24:17] <bawolff> I agree that generic alt text would be cool
[18:24:21] <James_F> Understood.
[18:24:26] <RexxS> as long as it can be supplemented where needed
[18:24:34] <bawolff> AFAICT, people rarely actually specify an alt text
[18:24:43] <AntiComposite> That's correct.
[18:24:54] <bawolff> of course, there are many cases where you should not
[18:24:59] <RexxS> But the alt text would be a real game-changer for accessibility
[18:25:12] <RexxS> we do a really bad job with alt text
[18:25:16] <James_F> Yeah, it's one of my dream list of improvements is to warn users when they add a media file to an article without an alt text.
[18:25:43] <RexxS> even better if it came with a pre-written alt text
[18:26:32] <RexxS> you see the difference between how we should deliver alt text and captions
[18:27:15] <Keegan> RexxS: To be clear, you're meaning alt-text on enwiki articles specifically, and more specifically the kind of alt-text that makes a site accessible to users with screen-readers
[18:27:24] <Keegan> (there's some layers to defining alt-text :) )
[18:28:43] <RexxS> I mean deliver the monolingual alt text if it's available in that Wiki's language
[18:28:54] <Keegan> Gotcha
[18:29:22] <RexxS> It should describe the image - that won't change, no matter where it's used
[18:29:36] <Keegan> So yeah, that can happen, from the SDC team (eventually probably) or from volunteers via gadget sooner
[18:30:02] <RexxS> sounds good
[18:30:15] <Keegan> timekeeping note, we're about half way through the meeting
[18:30:20] <Keegan> What else might we discuss
[18:30:58] <RexxS> can I ask about the "Use this file" functionality of a File on Commons?
[18:31:13] <Keegan> Sure
[18:31:16] <RexxS> Could that now be updated to make use of the caption?
[18:31:26] <RexxS> automatically :P
[18:31:32] <Keegan> Hm, interesting idea
[18:31:39] <James_F> That's a gadget, so it's a community question. ;-)
[18:31:45] <RexxS> would be an easy first step
[18:31:59] <RexxS> heh - thanks James
[18:32:28] <Keegan> The SDC team is planning work on attribution generation later this calendar year, might come into play for our software then
[18:32:40] <Keegan> But yeah, for now that gadget can be made to serve captions
[18:32:51] <RexxS> awesome
[18:33:08] <RexxS> I need some wins like that to hit the Luddites with
[18:33:16] <AntiComposite> What about Media Viewer?
[18:34:02] <Keegan> AntiComposite: What about it?
[18:34:04] <KCVelaga> I've an issue over here. The captions box is messing up with the Summary section header i.e. with ==Summary==. It is completely pushing it to the right side, with no way to scroll horizontally. I'm using "modern" skin.
[18:34:53] <James_F> KCVelaga: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. The Modern skin is broken in several ways unrelated to SDC, as it's community-supported. :-(
[18:35:52] <KCVelaga> Oh! Any chance to fix it? I mean any place on Phabricator to report this..
[18:36:23] <Keegan> KCVelaga: risler is checking Phabricator now
[18:36:28] <RexxS> Keegan, the Media Viewer currently serves the "Description" field. Might the caption be better?
[18:36:49] <KCVelaga> @James_F Thank You
[18:36:50] <RexxS> if available, of course
[18:37:05] <James_F> KCVelaga: I can reproduce. A quick hack to MediaWiki:Modern.css should suffice.
[18:37:28] <yannf> how the languages for the captions can be tweaked?
[18:37:54] <yannf> i.e. I have 4 languages in WD which is useful, but not in Commons
[18:38:04] <Spinster> @yannf the languages you see depend on the Babel template you have on your user page, just like on Wikidata
[18:38:05] <Keegan> RexxS: Yes it could be better, if a caption is available. However, we're not sure how many files will get captions, or how quickly captions may catch on. Whereas every file does have a description template thanks to the metadata cleanup drive a few years ago.
[18:38:07] <Keegan> SO
[18:38:14] <James_F> yannf: That's controlled by your Babel boxes.
[18:38:35] <yannf> James_F, yes, I understand that
[18:38:46] <Keegan> Yes, it could/would maybe be better for MMV to serve a caption. However, it depends on the quantity of captions to files in the end, as well as the community desire to have it do so
[18:39:08] <yannf> but my Gujarati is gu-1, so I won't be able to add captions
[18:39:20] <Keegan> This is also a little tricky as MMV is meant to serve a photo to readers on wikis, it's not a Commons friendly tool really.
[18:39:22] <yannf> although I can add names in WD
[18:39:26] <KCVelaga> Also is there any plan to import the existing descriptions, at least the ones which are tagged with respective language templates, for example, (English)
[18:40:13] <Keegan> KCVelaga: the SDC team isn't doing any content importing or addition, the community is welcome to run campaigns to do so if it fits.
[18:40:48] <yannf> people are already complaining it takes too much place
[18:40:52] <Keegan> KCVelaga: It was brought up today https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons_talk:Structured_data&type=revision&diff=334216095&oldid=334181788&diffmode=source
[18:40:55] <AntiComposite> It would also be a good idea for the community to discuss what a structured caption should consist of
[18:41:21] <KCVelaga> Keegan: Thanks for the link :)
[18:42:38] <James_F> KCVelaga: I could suggest a hack that would make Modern look "OK" right now, but I don't think the fix would last for very long. The next step is to provide statements, which will display differently again and need someone to keep Modern working on an on-going basis.
[18:43:13] <James_F> KCVelaga: So… my strong suggestion would be to stop using Modern, sorry.
[18:43:18] <AntiComposite> yannf, Maybe a gadget would be good to fix that (Like the two that move categories)?
[18:44:15] <Keegan> Yes it seems like a simple css or gadget can hide it for someone.
[18:44:39] <yannf> AntiComposite, yes, why not
[18:45:07] <KCVelaga> @James: Ah! That's sad. I've been using "modern" for more than four years, on all Wikis that I contribute to. I guess its time to change.
[18:45:12] <yannf> and there is an edit conflict when using Hotcats just after adding captions
[18:45:37] <Keegan> yannf: The hot cat issue is known, we have a ticket for it
[18:45:49] <AntiComposite> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T213462 or another one?
[18:47:01] <Keegan> We'll start winding down here in about ten minutes
[18:47:05] <yannf> Keegan, yes, I made it ;)
[18:47:34] <Keegan> yannf: well thank you for that :)
[18:51:27] <Keegan> Okay so first steps, anyone care to have a go at starting up a Commons: page for captions?
[18:51:47] <Keegan> Or think of some other things that might be needed in the community?
[18:54:37] <AntiComposite> Potential changes to the Stockphoto gadget and the fix for the editing position
[18:58:47] <Keegan> All right
[18:59:13] <Keegan> We're coming to the end of time, AntiComposite is this something you'd like to talk about on-wiki?
[19:00:28] <Keegan> Okay, I'm calling time on this "formal" discussion. People can continue with questions and comments on-wiki or in the commons channel here on IRC
[19:00:48] <Keegan> Thank you all for coming, I'll have another office hour scheduled sometime in February for statements
[19:00:54] <Keegan> #endmeeting