File talk:Stygian Wiki Logo Proto.png

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Notes on the Language variant (3c) — 2003-09-07:

I'm going out on a limb here, using roman letters in the body of the logo, so I'd like to take a few moments to justify it.

This variant is easily adaptable to Wikipediae written in any language, simply by replacing the central letters. These letters are ISO 639 alpha-2 codes, created by the International Organization for Standardization, and are in common use throughout the world, including right here on Wikipedia. (The various language Wikipediae are located at ??.wikipedia.org.) I envision that all Wikipediae could use the same basic logo, simply substituting the proper ISO code for their language: English = en, Chinese = zh, Esperanto = eo, French = fr, Russian = ru, etc.

(A possible variant on this variant would be to use one of the existing glyphs in the centre and move the language code — in smaller letters, of course — to one corner.)

I also feel that every Wikipedia should spell the name identically. It is, after all, a symbol (a brand name, if you will), and should not be translated. Microsoft is known as Microsoft all over the world. Every Google search page, in every language, bears the same logo. General Electric does not change their initials to EG in languages where adjectives follow nouns. On the Russian Wikipedia, amidst a sea of Cyrillic, the word Wikipedia appears in English; without that one familiar word, I would have no idea what I was looking at. To be truly international, the name — both its sound and its look — must be instantly and unambiguously recognized across all languages.

In short, a Wikipedia is a Wikipedia, regardless of the language it's written in.

// Stygian

Ne estas bona ekzemplo sekvi Yourcrosoft aux General Electric. En la esperanta versio ni uzas la vorton Vikipedio, same en la slavaj lingvoj (sl : Wikipedije, cs : Česká Wikipedie). Vikipedio estas multlingva kunlabora kultura projekto, ne komerca usona firmao kiu volas trudi la usonanglan lingvon tutmonden. -- ArnoLagrange 09:08, 9 Sep 2003 (UTC)
It's not a good example following Yourcrosoft or General Electric. In the esperanto version we are using the word Vikipedio, in slavic languages there are sl : Wikipedije, cs : Česká Wikipedie. Vikipedio / Wikipedia is a multilanguage collaborative cultural project, not a US commercial company which wants impose the US-english at the whole world. Thanks considering that english does'nt mean international but is the language of some people in the world, and became world wide in relationship with british and US imperialism.
Arno: Many Japanese companies — Sony, Toshiba, Yamaha, etc. — do the same; even in Japan, you will see these names romanized, because they are instantly recognized that way. Considering your point, though, that the various translations do convey the multi-cultural nature of Wikipedia, I offer a compromise: If I move the graphic to one side, there is enough room to insert the word Wikipedia vertically — in lighter type — and have the specific-language translation appear below the graphic — in bolder, more prominent type. La plej bona de dua mundoj? (This would be most useful for those translations which do not closely resemble the word Wikipedia: Arabic, Japanese, or Russian, for example.)

(I noticed, by the way, that even in your Esperanto statement, you included the words Yourcrosoft and General Electric in English; why were they not translated? :) )

Dankegon por via komentoj. // Stygian

Three things - Firstly, what exactly are you suggesting about Esperanto in that comment? Secondly, both Yourcrosoft and General Electric are proper nouns, names. There is no need for them to change, because of that. And finally, how the hell do you propose he translate "Yourcrosoft"? Kwekubo 11:53, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Kwekubo: Firstly, which comment do you mean? Did I say something bad about Esperanto? If so, I don't see it. Mi amas Esperanton. Secondly, that was exactly my point — that proper names, including Wikipedia, should not be translated. Even though my name has an Esperanto analog (Vilcxjo), I rarely translate it; Mia nomo estas Bill. And finally, I have no bloody idea! :) Apparently my good-natured sarcasm was misread. // Stygian
First, thanks for all your work on the logo. It is one of my favorites. But I don't think the language idea works very well. You end up with a very text-centric logo again on a website that consists mostly of text, and you get a problem that you would otherwise not have - Latin letters on variants with a non-Latin charset. Its one advantage is that it allows instant identification of the language you're on, but I don't think most people switch languages so often that it matters to them.—Eloquence 18:09, 9 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Eloquence: After much consideration, I concur; my comments about not translating the word Wikipedia seem to have opened a can of worms. And my attempt to mitigate the effect by using two languages makes it too cluttered. In retrospect, it seems this idea has the aerodynamic characteristics of the dodo.

I think I've shot myself in the foot; let's just forget I ever had this silly idea, shall we? // Stygian

Notes on symbolism — 2003-08-11:

The five colours around the periphery — Red, Black, Yellow, Brown, and White — represent the "races" of humanity; the Blue circle in the centre represents Earth. The "loopy" glyph is used on electrical drawings to represent a lamp; this is a visual pun on the classic "lightbulb over the head" image denoting an idea.

(The variants are in response to Stevertigo's observation that the original glyph might be misconstrued as a "W".)

Design Objectives Achieved: 

  .png format
  150px x 150px
  No English text
  "Wikipedia" name
  Separable
  Scalable
  Easy-to-read
  Colourful
  Uncluttered
  Professional
  Recognizable
  Thought-provoking
  Modern
  Figure/ground effect
  Adaptable
  Neutral
  Transparent

// Stygian

I like the design of your logo, but though there is unarguably a difference between the two versions, I can't tell what it is ?

This is the best logo so far... I'm convinced. The difference between the two is that the second one has all four color quandrants divided by a white bar instead of just the division between top and bottom. I think the one on the right looks more complete -adam

Adam: I agree. That very slight modification makes Variant 1 much more symmetrical; I'm afraid I missed that the first time. Doh!

Thank you both for your feedback! :)

// Stygian

I like it! I prefer the 2nd variant. What if the four corners had pictures in instead of colour? -- Tarquin 22:48 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

i duuno, it looks phallic both male & female ..to my failed mind.

VERY nice! I also prefer the 2nd version, looks a bit more clearly defined -- Gutza 01:26 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I like the look, but I can't shake the feeling I'm looking at http://www.ge.com/images/10923_s.gif :) --Brion VIBBER 08:39 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It reminds me a bit to the blue-white wire-wiki-logo in front of a german flag... :-) -- Sansculotte 12:24 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)

But its still (like a lot of designs) based on a roman letter W -- not everybodys going to want it -- thats really what started this whole business in the first place -- people dont want english-specific logos on their non-english sites. -Stevertigo 02:05 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Stevertigo: It is not based on the roman W. The glyph was inspired by the lamp or light-bulb symbol used on electrical drawings — in this context symbolizing a flow of ideas and/or enlightenment. That it looks like a W to some people is serendipitous. It can be replaced with another glyph if necessary.

(By the way, the roman W is not English-specific — it's used in other languages as well.)

// Stygian

I like it. I also would suggest some kind of knot, but who to symblise this? I 've tried it on 25 an http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_logos. I do like the flexible round thing in the middle. --Nerd

I would apreciate different colours and the Letters from the edge to the edge. But I realy love this Logo.

Example:

Thanks! :) I'm still experimenting with various typefaces and sizes for the name; I'd prefer it to be flush with the square, too. But I'm pretty firm on the colours (see Notes on Symbolism, above); minor changes in hue are possible, I suppose, but I'd really like to stay with those general colours.

// Stygian

The pencil one is my favorite. I'm working on an svg version of it. But what if you made a book in the center? Or something signifying the internet? -w:User:LittleDan

I tried for a long time to get one of the glyphs in the center to SVG, but I failed, so here's the frame. Any of the logos in the center can be inserted into this:
<svg viewBox="0 0 100 100">
<rect x="0" y="0" height="49" width="49" fill="#c00000"/>
<rect x="59" y="0" height="49" width="49" fill="#4b4b4b"/>
<rect x="0" y="59" height="49" width="49" fill="#c98700"/>
<rect x="59" y="59" height="49" width="49" fill="#efd601"/>
<circle cx="50" cy="50" r="40" fill="white"/>
<circle cx="50" cy="50" r="34" fill="#006699"/>
</svg>

LittleDan 00:51, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I have modified LittleDan's svg and included the light bulb symbol: 

<svg width="100" height="100" viewBox="0 0 100 100">
 <rect width="47" height="47" x="0" y="0" style="fill:#c00000;" />
 <rect width="47" height="47" x="53" y="0" style="fill:#4b4b4b;" />
 <rect width="47" height="47" x="0" y="53" style="fill:#c98700;" />
 <rect width="47" height="47" x="53" y="53" style="fill:#efd601;" />
 <circle cx="50" cy="50" r="40" style="fill:#ffffff;" />
 <circle cx="50" cy="50" r="34" style="fill:#006699;" />

 <path d="M 15 50 C 19 50 25 50 29 50 C 29 60 34 69 42 69
          C 52 69 56 56 56 47 C 56 37 52 28 50 28 C 48 28 44 37 44 47
          C 44 56 48 69 58 69 C 66 69 71 60 71 50 C 75 50 83 50 87 50"
       style="fill:none; stroke:#ffffff; stroke-width:6;
              stroke-linecap:square; stroke-linejoin:miter;" />
</svg>

for the pencil version, replace the path element above with: 

<path d="M 37 69 L 27 73 L 31 63 L 66 28 C 70 24 76 30 72 34 L 37 69 z"
      style="fill:#ffffff;" /> 
<path d="M 28 67 L 33 72"
      style="stroke:#006699; stroke-width:0.6;" />
<path d="M 30 62 L 38 70"
      style="stroke:#006699; stroke-width:0.6;" />
<path d="M 63 30 L 70 37"
      style="stroke:#006699; stroke-width:0.6;" />

I will do the pen nib (my favorite) version when time allows

I don't like the silver circle - it breaks the logo up too much. It's much cleaner in white (I think the look of the thing should be the priority, not symbolism, just my two cents)

Birkett

LittleDan: I tried making the pencil upright — so it could be viewed as a pencil, or as a book (or even an "i") with an arrow pointing down to the Wikipedia name — but this gave the logo too much of a vertical bias, and made the centre look too vacant. Note that the slanted pencil glyph is easily adaptable for a left-handed Wikipedia by rotating it 90 degrees anticlockwise. :)

I'm curious to see your .svg, as I have no idea how to write one myself. I'm sure I'll learn a lot from it!

// Stygian

The pencil looks a bit too much like a scalpel, IMHO. Could it get some round edges on the eraser end?—Eloquence 08:11 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Eloquence: Is this better?

// Stygian

I like the pen nib the best, so far. Indicative of writing and creation of art.

// Pacific1982

Colorful pencil loses a bit too much of the abstraction. Ink pen looks nice, but should not be quite as broad as it is, I think.—Eloquence 20:59 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Okay, I skinny-fied the chubby pen nib :) and re-abstracted the pencil. How now?

// Stygian

Love the nib. I think the pencil has one line too many, although I don't know which one should be taken out (I'd say the one in the "body"). Also, as I suggested earlier, could the eraser part be rounded? —Eloquence 22:50 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Why is the white race between the other races and the Earth?

Because the four quadrants were already occupied, and I had to put it somewhere! It also makes a nice visual separation between the four outer colours and the middle (and each other). If you swap the White to an outer quadrant the symmetry is destroyed. I have been experimenting with a more neutral color for the ring around Earth (the Pen variant with the Silver ring). Then, of course, someone will ask why the glyph is White and in the centre. Let's not read too much into the colour scheme, shall we?  :)

// Stygian

I don't like the race symbolism. I don't have strong feelings against the color combination per se, though.

It is good that this logo can easily work in black and white as well.

Clarification: It is much more accurate to say that the colours symbolize the DIVERSITY of humanity, but "race" seemed to be the only factor mappable to discrete colours. If this is an issue, the colours may be changed to something less controversial. I apologize for any misunderstanding or offence my poor choice of words may have caused.


// Stygian

I like the symbolism, or the "idea" -- but I can't find it in the visual. It looks like something coming straight out of the 1920s or 1950s, from the martial shield-like quarters to the (visually not detectable) parody of the lightbulb. Maybe it is the "German (or Belgium) Flag" association, maybe it is the dimmed colors -- as much as I like the idea, the visual representation I dislike. -- Tillwe 17:54, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Its utilitarian, Ill give it that -- the only thing missing is what exactly to put in the circle -- everything there seems too literal to me, making it usesless as a symbol. Maybe this design can be used as a frame in combination with a symbol within the sphere might work -Stevertigo 19:37, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

An example of the lamp symbol may be found at: http://home.cfl.rr.com/aichip/THE04.htm . I modified it slightly to conform to my idea: rotated it 180 degrees so that it could alternately be viewed as a manuscript "W", and made the arms cross the circle for symmetry. I agree with Stevertigo that perhaps the surrounding image could be used as a container for another glyph.

// Stygian

Must say, the shield carries a very strong mental 'The pen is mightier than the sword' connection (good thing!) -- Jake Nelson 03:21, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The 'Lamp' version is simple yet colorful, perfect and resembles the letter W. Usedbook 22:50, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Love the lamp version. Hate the pen ones and the @sign one. GeorgeBrisco

Partnership with Miwiki the ant[edit]

Miwiki the ant is a artwork of workgroup...

Do you accept that I design variant of your logo which use our stylised ant ?

More about Miwiki on : User:Oliezekat/Miwiki logo 5 or fr:Utilisateur:Oliezekat/Miwiki

I offer you to design special Miwiki (flat with white lines) for your logo. If you are right, send me (kat@olid.fr.st) hires picture of your logo with blank at center :o) Oliezekat 10:20, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I think this is one of the logos where Miwiki would be really inappropriate.—Eloquence 15:19, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Why ? can you explain ? ...But I think it could be more easy to discuss (or decide) if I show test picture :op Oliezekat 15:28, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)
This is a highly stylized logo, and Miwiki only works for me if she is shown in her full glory (with a nice color and shading). Combining the two, however, seems to be a mix up of different styles. I'm not the one who decides which variants to put on the ballot, of course. Anyway, I think you're doing a great job with Miwiki -- keep up the good work! I've really grown to like her as a mascot.—Eloquence 21:10, 8 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Give only one chance, please... Just try ! :o( ...you cant imagine that I think about ; I dont want to show full ant, but only his head with antenna at center :op ...This could be nice ? or not ?
NB: Thank for move back my smiley ;o)
Are you author of this logo ? You are Stygian ? ...Do you know how I can contact him ? :op
And I like Lamp version but why not design same version with "W" letter ? :o| Oliezekat 00:23, 9 Sep 2003 (UTC)
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