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Movement roles/Working group meeting 2010-11-5

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On 5 November 2010, a meeting was held on IRC (#wikimedia-roles on Freenode) to discuss the movement roles project. This second-ever IRC meeting was, as with the first, an open meeting, attended by any interested participants.

Jon Huggett opened the meeting with a pointer to the next steps page, and the topic moved quickly to item #1, personal interviews.

Jon summarized a few potential obstacles arising from a general lack of knowledge, particularly:

  • That we are doing this work
  • That we want to hear from them
  • That it is easy for them to share their view
  • That their point of view will have influence

Jon suggested that one way to overcome most of these is to actively pursue as a broad a range of perspectives as possible. Several options were discussed:

  • Posts to community mailing lists
  • On-wiki outreach—e.g. village pumps
  • Blogging
  • Outreach through the Wikipedia 10th anniversary celebrations

The blog in particular, as a new idea, met with some debate. Barry Newstead proposed that it be used to break up the questions into smaller, more manageable chunks, as opposed to the more intimidating full list of questions. Questions could be asked over specific periods of time, in order to encourage focused discussion.

The 10th anniversary idea was briefly discussed, with Barry expressing some reservations about the appropriateness of co-opting a celebration for policy work.

It was finally agreed that all options should be pursued, with Austin taking the lead on the blog.

The list of individual interviews was discussed, with Bishakha in particular concerned about spreading resources too thin. It was agreed that spreading the questions out over time, as discussed with the blog proposal, would help with this, as well as encouraging people to answer on the wiki and limiting those individually interviewed by the working group.

As a final point, Barry proposed that the first question for the blog be "What role do you see for you and your organization in achieving the vision, mission and strategic goals?" With no opposition, this was decided as the first topic.

At that point, the one-hour mark had passed, and the group agreed to adjourn.

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13:46 < GerardM-> Hoi, I am early but being there only with you is a surprise
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15:46 < Jon__> hey Austin
15:46 < Jon__> hey Gerard
15:46 < GerardM-> Hoi Jon
15:46 < GerardM-> it is kinda quiet
15:47 < GerardM-> have you read .. http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2010/11/wikipedia-becomes-teenager-so-lets.html
15:47 < GerardM-> it was fun to write
15:47 < Jon__> yup.  the chat is not scheduled to start until the hour
15:48 < Jon__> I have not yet, and will do so
15:48 < GerardM-> I am more and more getting into illustrations ... they truly paint a thousand words
15:50 < Jon__> great
15:53 < GerardM-> having a tea party and a communist party in the same blog ...
15:53 -!- bishakha [~bishakha@] has joined #wikimedia-roles
15:53 < GerardM-> it is NPOV ..
15:53 < GerardM-> hoi Bishakha
15:53 < bishakha> Hello all!
15:54 < Austin> Hi all
15:54 < Jon__> hi Bishakha
15:54 < GerardM-> When I read about a meeting just to see Jimmy with 500 / 600 people attending WOW that is awesome
15:55 < bishakha> Yes - more than that, we suddenly realized there were lots of wikimedians in Mumbai
15:55 < GerardM-> that is bigger then WIkimania ..
15:55 < Austin> I'm busy clicking "move" 35 or so times
15:55 < bishakha> so we now have a big email list
15:56 < GerardM-> at the moment my blogpost about India prove popular
15:56 < bishakha> and can do regular meet-ups in Mumbai (hopefully)
15:56 < GerardM-> that makes sense
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15:57 < Austin> Hi Bence
15:57 < bishakha> Hey Bence
15:57 < Jon__> Hi Bence
15:58 < dami_hun> hi
15:58 < Jon__> Arne mentioned that he might be late into the meeting, and Barry said he might be a little late
16:01 < bishakha> Should we wait to start then?
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16:04 < bnewstead> Good morning, afternoon and evening all. Hope you are well.
16:04 < bishakha> Hey Barry
16:04 < Austin> Hey Barry
16:05 < Jon_H> Hey Barry.  Arne is running late
16:05 < Jon_H> We should start
16:05 < Jon_H> has everyone seen the page 'next steps'?
16:06 < Jon_H> it is on the MR wiki
16:06 < bishakha> Yes, had a question.
16:06 < Jon_H> what is your question, Bishakha?
16:06 < Austin> Also http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/Next_steps
16:06 < bishakha> Is everyone on the workgroup to do the interviews? How does it work?
16:07 < Jon_H> that is one of the key questions we want to tackle today!  thanks for asking that question
16:08 < Jon_H> what would be great is if we could first come together on the next steps, then plan how to work together to make it happen
16:08 < bishakha> Any initial thoughts? And deadline?
16:08 < bishakha> @Jon: ok, sounds good
16:08 < Jon_H> the next steps page lays out what we want to do between now and the end of January
16:09 < Jon_H> it lays out three broad strands of work
16:09 < bnewstead> I think we should really focus on #1.
16:09 < Jon_H> each will come together when we meet in January
16:09 < Jon_H> #1 is by far the lion's share of the work
16:09 < bnewstead> Not to say #2 and #3 aren't valuable, but we need to work on getting a strong dialogue going with more than the *usual suspects*
16:10 < Jon_H> Barry, #1 is where we need the most help
16:10 < Jon_H> exactly ... we want #1 to be broad and inclusive
16:10 < bnewstead> What do you see as the barriers?
16:10 < Jon_H> we want to 'open the aperture' and see a 'wide angle' view
16:11 < Jon_H> the barriers are that people will not know ...
16:11 < Jon_H> ... that we are doing this work
16:11 < Jon_H> .... that we want to hear from them
16:11 < Jon_H> ... that it is easy for them to share their view
16:12 < Jon_H> ... and that their point of view will have influence
16:12 < Jon_H> there are a number of things that we can do to over come these obstacles
16:12 < Jon_H> first, we need to reach out to as broad a range of people as possible
16:12 < bishakha> Apart from posting on internal-l, foundation-l, how else can reach a broad range?
16:13 < bnewstead> A couple of thoughts...
16:13 < Jon_H> to start to do this we have created a page of people we would like to contact, which we hope will grow as people add more suggestsio
16:13 < bishakha> Seen the page of people to contact, could email them directly and ask them to contribute
16:14 < dami_hun> a common thing to do with announcement like this is to spam all the village pumps – it might get a few people
16:14 < bnewstead> Yes agree with Bishakha. Email and msgs on their talk pages
16:15 < GerardM-> with internal and foundation it is still a small sized group... how about blogging ?
16:15 < bnewstead> I like Gerard's suggestion.  Why not start a blog to tee up key question
16:15 < Jon_H> great thought
16:16 < bishakha> blogging would work
16:16 < bnewstead> Signpost can pick it up and we can Tweet it out
16:16 < GerardM-> do not forget to use illustrations
16:17 < bnewstead> A blog would also help to parse the questions into manageable chunks
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16:17 < Jon_H> welcome
16:17 < bnewstead> Right now the questionnaire is intimidating for folks
16:18 < Austin> I'm on board with better organized chunks, for sure
16:18 < bnewstead> If you interview them it is OK, but
16:18 < Austin> I'm not sure a blog is the best medium
16:18 < bnewstead> it is really hard to find a place to contribute a little bit at a time
16:18 < bishakha> Austin, what do you think are the drawbacks of a blog for this?
16:19 < Austin> Well, it's a bit unwiki :)
16:19 < bishakha> fair enough, but
16:19 < bnewstead> Just want to note that dami_hun's suggestion on village pumps is something we should do.
16:19 < bnewstead> We can blog on the wiki.
16:19 < Austin> It's asking people to contribute in a way that's totally different from how they contribute to their other projects
16:20 < bishakha> we might get contributions from a broader set if we break it up into bite-sized chunks, as opposed to whole qstionnaire
16:20 < bnewstead> Think of it as a brief opening statement that encourages dialogue and editing.
16:20 < GerardM-> Austin, a proper tool gets you a better result .. Blogging on the wiki takes Wikia software
16:20 < bishakha> how about if we do both? and people can choose how they want to contribute?
16:20 < Jon_H> sounds like there are two principles here - spread the word wide, and then make it easy for people to talk to us – is that right?
16:20 < bishakha> yes, jon
16:21 < bnewstead> Yes
16:21 < dami_hun> a blog would allow commenting, which is usually quite a low barrier thing to contribution and the thing that a wiki doesn't do is RSS feeds on updates
16:21 < Jon_H> there are a number of ways that they can talk to us - blog, answer questions on the wiki, talk/interview, meet at tenth anniversay
16:22 < bishakha> yes, let's use all these.
16:22 < Austin> We definitely want to open up as many ways as possible to weigh in
16:22 < Austin> Make the barrier to entry as low as possible
16:22 < bishakha> i will ensure i get the word out to the indic lang village pumps, as per bence's suggestion
16:22 < GerardM-> I blogged today about meets at the tenth anniversary ..
16:22 < bnewstead> All except 10th anni - that is supposed to be fun :)
16:23 < bnewstead> Go Gerard!
16:23 < Austin> There's always the cost-benefit question, of course, and the worry of spreading resources too thin
16:23 < GerardM-> http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2010/11/wikipedia-becomes-teenager-so-lets.html
16:24 < bnewstead> Austin, I think there is somewhat but we should experiment and see what works.
16:24 < bishakha> i think we should ensure this gets widely known within the movement, even if only a smaller group is spoken to/contributes
16:25 < Austin> I'm fine with experimenting with that, sure
16:25 < Jon_H> agreed.  shall we go with four channels?
16:25 < Austin> It's not like a blog takes much to manage
16:25 < Austin> As long as it's consolidated somewhere in the end
16:25 < Jon_H> blog + wiki + interview + meeting @ 10th anniversary
16:25 < bnewstead> I'm fine with relatively small numbers contributiing, if we know that large numbers are aware and are wathcing
16:26 < bnewstead> lots of folks will lurk (sp?) and that's cool
16:26 < Austin> Sure, lurkers are great
16:26 < Jon_H> lurk in the murk
16:26 < Austin> Every once in a while they pop up with insight
16:26 < Jon_H> that is how you spell it
16:26 < Jon_H> can we agree that those four channels will be how we go forward?
16:26 < bishakha> fine w me
16:27 < bnewstead> So let's get tactical
16:27 < Jon_H> we'd need to set up the blog
16:27 < Jon_H> we already have the wiki
16:27 < bnewstead> Who's writing the blog?
16:27 < Jon_H> we need to agree the interviewing
16:27 < Austin> I can take the blog
16:27 < Austin> Post every couple of days with an update; see what we get
16:28 < Jon_H> Austin, can you take the lead on the blog?
16:28 < Jon_H> and we'll need to agree the meeting around the tenth anniversary
16:28 < Jon_H> Are we happy with the idea of the meeting at the tenth anniversary, or, Barry, should I take your comment as a caution?
16:28 < dami_hun> for those that will be in SF...
16:28 < Jon_H> yes
16:29 < Jon_H> AFAIK there should be a fair sample there outside the 'usual suspects'
16:29 < Jon_H> is that fair?
16:29 < bnewstead> sorry I'm lost on the 10th A idea
16:29 < Austin> Ah
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16:30 < Austin> Hey Arne
16:30 < bishakha> hey arne
16:30 < Jon_H> the idea is to hold a meeting at the 10th anniversary celebration in SF to draw ideas and views
16:30 < Jon_H> it was a suggestion from Sue when we met with her in SF
16:30  * aklempert says hi (still a little busy with other stuff, but listening)
16:30 < Jon_H> Hi Arne
16:30 < Austin> There are already various plans to commemorate the event in SF
16:31 < bnewstead> Can I do a brieg overview of hte 10th plan?
16:31 < Jon_H> the thought for the 10th anniversary meeting was to find the people who will not likely make it to Europe either for the meeting in FRA in Jan or BER in Mar
16:32 < bnewstead> The 10th will be celebrated globally. We are hoping to have 50-100 venues for parties.  There will be a wikiconference in SF that Phoebe is organizing
16:32 < Jon_H> then there may be multiple opportunities to connect with people.
16:33 < bnewstead> Yes, though we shouldn't bet on this as a big opportunity as it will be more of a party than a meeting
16:33 < bishakha> we can try, although not sure people will focus on movement roles at this time of celebration
16:33 < bnewstead> in most places. Also, Wikimedians tend to engage best on wikis
16:33 < Austin> As long as it's going to be a party, though, perhaps we can capitalize on the time around it.
16:34 < Jon_H> how can we make the best of the tenth anniversary celebrations to reach people that would not otherwise talk to us?
16:34 < bishakha> can we break up the questionnaire into smaller bits on the wiki and have one or two questions asked each week?
16:34 < bnewstead> I really think our best bet is to tee up questions, broadcast them and then have deep discussion threads
16:34 < bnewstead> I'm with Bishakha
16:34 < bishakha> if we say question 1, pl answer by deadline x, maybe more people will answer
16:34 < bnewstead> Note: this is what worked best on the strategy project.
16:35 < Jon_H> interesting.  we thought it would be easier if people could put all their answers in one place .... so curious to learn more about the strategy experience
16:36 < Austin> Interesting thought.
16:36 < Jon_H> can we do both at the same time?
16:36 < bishakha> yes, everyone will still put their answers in one place (eventually) but broken up question wise
16:36 < Austin> So a question of the week.
16:36 < Jon_H> have one question a week ... and let people comment on their own time, if that is what they want to do?
16:36 < bishakha> also: the 40+ people named on the interview list incl 29 chapters should still try to answer fully
16:37 < Jon_H> having deadlines will stimulate some responses
16:37 < bishakha> this is how conversations seem to flow on wikis: topic-wise
16:37 < Austin> We did hope to have some detailed conversation (real-time interviews) with key people, like the chapters, as Bishakha said.
16:37 < bishakha> so just trying to convert the big questionnaire into smaller topics
16:37 < Jon_H> OK.  so let's try topic-wise
16:38 < bishakha> and also have a list of "must-have" interviews
16:38 < bnewstead> Note: no way to do 40+ interviews.  Much better to work on getting those 40+ people to share whatever their thoughts are on the wiki
16:38 < Jon_H> one or two questions a week
16:38 < Jon_H> the more that we can get on the wiki the better
16:38 < bnewstead> One caution on deadlines - they need to be reasonable...
16:38 < bishakha> Yes - I think everyone is likely to share if they know they have to spend 15 minutes (or less)  :)
16:38 < Jon_H> yes
16:39 < bnewstead> I've learned the hard way that volunteers engage when they way to and can. This requires flexibility on our part
16:39 < Jon_H> I agree that 40+ is too many.  can we get some guidance on who we should interview?
16:39 < bishakha> let's first try and direct the 40+ to the wiki, see how many reply in bite-sized pieces, then figure out full length interviews?
16:39 < Austin> There was a general notion that if the questions were available, people could copy them to a subpage and answer them on their own.
16:40 -!- Morgan [ca8c6c3e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.] has joined #wikimedia-roles
16:40 < bnewstead> Let's interview those that we think are both representative of less prevalent need areas and are least likely to engage proactively
16:40 < Jon_H> hi Morgan
16:40 < Morgan> Sorry, i am late
16:40 < Jon_H> let's do both what Bishakha and Barry suggested
16:40 < bishakha> hi morgan
16:40 < bnewstead> Austin, only a few people will do that - and we know who these folks are...
16:41 < Jon_H> 1) invite everyone to contribute to the wiki; and 2) reach out proactively selectively
16:41 < bnewstead> IMO most will feel comfortable joining in on a more narrow discussion where they can add a fresh POV or support others
16:42 < Jon_H> Barry, you mean on the wiki, right, not in interview?
16:43 < Jon_H> on the wiki input, let's go topic-wise, so that the discussion is focused
16:43 < bnewstead> Yes on wiki
16:43 < Jon_H> interviews we might have the oppo to go through all the questions, depending on the interview
16:44 < Jon_H> who might be the 10-20 people we should try to interview?
16:45 < Morgan> Any difference of the questions between the interview and wiki one?
16:45 < Austin> Nope
16:45 < Jon_H> no.  same questions
16:45 < bishakha> jon, do you mean from the 40+ list?
16:45 < bnewstead> Sorry I'm trying to find the page with the interview list. Can someone share it?
16:45 < Jon_H> could be from the 40+ or could be from more
16:45 < Jon_H> we can encourage the 40+ to contribute on wiki
16:46 < Austin> Well, if we put the questions and the process out there, we can probably give everyone a week or two, and reach out to specific people who haven't answered in that time.
16:46 < bishakha> http://movementroles.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interviews
16:46 < Jon_H> and the list of 40+ may keep growing
16:46 < Jon_H> who from that list or others do you think might be less inclined to give fulsome answers on the wiki and therefore might offer more in interview?
16:47 < bnewstead> So, almost all of the groups/people listed here can be pushed to the wiki
16:47 < Austin> Right now that list is mostly chapters and people who would be inclined to respond anyway.
16:47 < Jon_H> the more on the wiki the better
16:48 < bnewstead> We need to invite them with a friendly email explaining why their contributions would be valuable
16:48 < bnewstead> A few folks I'd interview...
16:48 < Jon_H> yes?
16:48 < bishakha> also on the wiki diff people from the same chapter could respond, instead of just one person, so we may get more perspectives
16:49 < Austin> Well, practically speaking, most of them are people on my IM list who I can hit up in a friendly way.
16:49 < Jon_H> yes, Bishakha.  it would be much better to get multiple responses than for people to try to consolidate or synthesize
16:49 < bnewstead> HtChien - to see what happened to WM Taiwan which is largely dead even though they hosted Wikimania
16:50 < Jon_H> interesting
16:50 < Austin> And just to be clear, most of those names have question marks because they were just names off the top of my head.
16:51 < bishakha> it's a good list to begin with, austin
16:51 < bnewstead> Same with someone from Egypt - we had Wikimania but little forward progress on organizing since. Why?
16:51 < Austin> Yep.
16:51 < Jon_H> well put on the MR wiki a list of people to be interviewed, starting with Taiwan and Egypt
16:51 < dami_hun> if we want multiple responses from the same chapter we might need to phrase that list somehow to make it more personal  – unless we want each chapter to have a coordinated response, it might be difficult to get people to contribute under the same "chapter label"
16:51 < Austin> Taiwan, Egypt, WMUK version 1, prospective chapters.
16:52 < bnewstead> OK probably more efficient, though my key point is we should interview those with specific areas of insight that we might not get otherwise
16:52 < Jon_H> good point Bence.  we want personal responses.  the list of chapters is there only to make sure we cast the net wode
16:52 < bishakha> agree bence
16:52 < Jon_H> agreed Barry and Bence
16:52 < Austin> Right, the chapter list is just a starting point
16:52 < bnewstead> Agree Bence
16:53 < Jon_H> Let's proceed on this basis - we'll push as many to the wiki as possible, and reach out to a select crew by interview
16:53 < Jon_H> the list of people to interview will be on MR wiki
16:53 < Jon_H> are all OK with that approach?
16:53 < bishakha> i think it would be fab if we could actually get responses from most of the chapters, so the list is very useful
16:53 < bnewstead> Shall we commit to rebuilding the interview list by Monday?
16:54 < bnewstead> Probably want around 10 interviews and a lot longer list for Austin to drive outreach to
16:54 < Jon_H> let's create two lists
16:55 < bishakha> two lists?
16:55 < Jon_H> there will be a list of chapters -  we will ask people from them to answer the questions on the wiki
16:55 < Jon_H> and there will be a list of people that we will interview
16:55 < bishakha> are they mutually exclusive?
16:56 < Jon_H> no
16:56 < Austin> They're not really, which is why it's currently one table
16:56 < Austin> But it does need to be expanded
16:56 < bishakha> i think the table works fine, just needs expansion
16:56 < bishakha> it's easy to see it all in one place too
16:56 < Jon_H> but the outreach is different -  we will ask many to contribute to the wiki - we will interview few
16:56 < Austin> I can work on expanding it this weekend, and anyone with ideas should contribute it as well
16:57 < Austin> +to
16:57 < bishakha> ok, so the 2nd list would be 10 interview musts?
16:57 < Jon_H> exactly]
16:57 < Austin> I can add a column that says "specifically reach out to this person"
16:57 < bishakha> yes, that sounds good
16:58 -!- delphine [~notafish@unaffiliated/delphine] has joined #wikimedia-roles
16:58 < Jon_H> hey Delphine
16:58 < bishakha> hey delphine!
16:58 < Austin> Hey Del
16:58  * delphine slaps Arne for not reminding her to come :(
16:58 < dami_hun> hi Delphine!
16:58 < Morgan> Correct me if i am wrong: the interviewees list is to ensure that we can hear the views of more important persons
16:58 < delphine> hello all :)
16:58 < Morgan> Hi Delphine
16:58  * delphine hugs bishakha. Long time no see Madame!
16:58 < bnewstead> Hi Delphine!
16:59 < bishakha> del: indeed! come to india!
16:59 < delphine> hiho Barry
16:59 < Jon_H> and while we are at it, does anyone want to help with interviewing, or not?
16:59 < bnewstead> So, can we tackle one more question before we wrap?
16:59 < Jon_H> should we add a column for interviewer?
16:59 < delphine> bishakha: I know, HP and I are devising evil schemes for me to get there ;)
16:59 < Jon_H> yes
16:59 < Jon_H> What is your last Q Barry?
16:59 < bishakha> lovely  :)
16:59 < delphine> I want to interview the Greenpeace Executive Director!
17:00 < bnewstead> We interviewed a former head of GP in the strategy project - I'll find the notes.  No need to repeat.
17:01 < Jon_H> process check ... it is now 1600 UTC ... what key questions do we need to tackle before disassembling?
17:01 < bnewstead> MY Q was: what question should we use to get the ball rolling on the discussion?
17:01 < Jon_H> good Q
17:01 < Jon_H> which one will spark the best discussion>
17:01 < delphine> "Are you a wikimedian?" :)
17:03 < Jon_H> :-)   which of the questions in the list do you think would be the best with which to start?
17:03 < Austin> Hehe
17:03 < delphine> Austin: topic change witht the right links :P
17:04 < Austin> Good point
17:04 < delphine> I think it depends whether we're addressing an outsider
17:04 < delphine> or a wikimedian
17:04 < bnewstead> Here is my proposal: What role do you see for you and your organization in achieving the vision, mission and strategic goals?
17:05 < bishakha> wikimedian, i thought (on the wiki)
17:05 < Austin> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/Initial_Questions is the list of initial questions
17:05 < Jon_H> yes, it is for wikimedians
17:05 < bnewstead> With a link to http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Plan/Movement_Priorities
17:05 < delphine> ah right
17:05 < delphine> so yes, I think that's a good question
17:06 < Jon_H> That is a good place to start
17:06 < Jon_H> shall we make that our first question?
17:07 < bnewstead> If you like, I can help Austin with the opening blog since it builds from the strategy work.
17:07 < GerardM-> make sure that you have illustrations
17:07 < Austin> I'd welcome that, sure.
17:07 < Jon_H> sounds like we are on the road
17:08 < Austin> I'm not sure we should emphasize the strategy work, but there's certainly a lot to be taken away from it.
17:08 < Jon_H> is there any other question that anyone wants to raise now before we finish?
17:08 < bnewstead> Not from me - good discussion today.
17:08 < Jon_H> We have a lot to work on, and should be far forward by the time we have our next chat in two weeks
17:09 < Jon_H> thank, Barry
17:09 < Jon_H> anyone else?
17:10 < bishakha> Sounds good, the way ahead
17:10 < Jon_H> thanks, Bishakha
17:10 < Jon_H> shall we wrap it now until our next chat in two weeks?
17:10 < bnewstead> Sounds good to me.
17:11 < bishakha> Bye, and wishing everyone a happy Diwali from India.
17:11 < Austin> I think that wraps it up.
17:11 < Jon_H> take care Bishakha
17:11 < Jon_H> thanks, all.  TTFN
17:12 < bnewstead> Ciao
17:12 < Morgan> thank you very much :-)