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Movement roles/Working group meeting 2011-1-7

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[14:55] == Jon-H [4fb02013@gateway/web/freenode/ip.] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[14:55] == galio [~chatzilla@] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[14:55] <galio> hi everybody
[14:56] <Jon-H> hi Galileo
[14:56] <Morgan> hi
[14:56] <Jon-H> hi Anirudh, Morgan, SJ, Lyzzy and Kibble
[14:56] <lyzzy> hi all
[14:57] <Jon-H> Did everyone have a good break?
[14:57] <Morgan> yes :p
[14:58] == YairRand_ [63ee1f12@gateway/web/freenode/ip.] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[14:58] == bishakha [~Bishakha@] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[14:58] <Jon-H> Bishakha, Barry and Arne also said that they would join
[14:58] <Jon-H> Hi Bishakha
[14:58] <Jon-H> Hi YairRand
[14:59] <bishakha> Hi all
[14:59] <Morgan> hi Bishakha
[15:00] <Jon-H> Did everyone get a chance to look at the agenda?  http://movementroles.wikimedia.org/wiki/Agenda_for_MR_workgroup_IRC_chat_2011-1-7
[15:00] == Jan_eissfeldt [~Jan_eissf@p54B9479F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[15:01] <Morgan> Jon, may i ask how many responses were received so far?
[15:01] <Morgan> for initital questions and fact base
[15:02] <Morgan> Is it all shown on the meta?
[15:02] == aklempert [~chatzilla@] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[15:02] == dami_hun [54033446@gateway/web/freenode/ip.] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[15:02] <Jon-H> Pretty much everything is on the meta.  I have two interviews to write up, which I will put with the others on MR wiki
[15:02] <aklempert> hi everybody
[15:02] <dami_hun> hi all
[15:02] <Morgan> hi
[15:02] <Jon-H> The write-ups from interviews are on MR wiki.  Everything else is on meta
[15:03] <Jon-H> Hi Bence
[15:03] <Jon-H> He Arne
[15:03] <Morgan> Do we have any target for how many people we have to reach?
[15:03] <Jon-H> Not a specific number, but we were hoping for a much livelier response on the wiki, which is why we created the blog as well
[15:04] <Jon-H> Outreach efforts so far have not been fruitful
[15:04] <aklempert> Morgan: there's defnitley a need to have a conversation with a much broader group of people than we have reached so far
[15:04] <Jon-H> We have actually had more luck with one-on-one interviews
[15:04] <Jon-H> Absolutely
[15:04] <Morgan> That's exactly what i would like to talk about
[15:05] <galio> I'm getting some interesting comments on es.Wikipedia's village pump --not strictly responses to our initial questions, but I'll translate some of them for input
[15:05] <Jon-H> Great.  It is the first item on the agenda.
[15:05] <Jon-H> That would be great, Galileo
[15:05] <Jon-H> There was also an interesting conversation on foundation-l started by Lodewijk and Milos that has some views that we should hear
[15:05] == bnewstead [~chatzilla@adsl-71-142-67-126.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[15:05] <Jon-H> Hey Barry
[15:06] <Jon-H> We are on the first item on the agenda http://movementroles.wikimedia.org/wiki/Agenda_for_MR_workgroup_IRC_chat_2011-1-7
[15:06] <bnewstead> Hello and happy new year.
[15:06] <galio> in fact, what many people have said me is "We don't understand what these questions are all about"
[15:06] <Morgan> same here
[15:06] <Jon-H> Then let's ask questions that we think people can answer
[15:07] <Morgan> it is just too long and complicated
[15:07] <galio> some are perhaps too cryptic for outsiders, or at least for people who are not active on chapters or other groups
[15:07] <Jon-H> We tried to set up the blog to make it simpler - just one concrete question at a time
[15:07] <Jon-H> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/Blog
[15:07] <Jon-H> The response here has been pretty weak, too
[15:08] <bishakha> Jon: yes, i guess same issue as galio's point, questions are the same
[15:08] <bishakha> whether served up all at once, or in bits
[15:08] <Morgan> I think MC choices would be easier
[15:09] <Morgan> MC choices + optional response
[15:09] <Morgan> then they can spend less time to answer
[15:09] <Jon-H> Why not put up some MC choices and see what we get back?
[15:09] <bishakha> Morgan: MC? Multiple Choice?
[15:09] <aklempert> my impression is that our questions are abstract by design and therefore not easy to answer for people not activley involved in wikimedia's organizational structures. i doubt there is much we can do about this right now
[15:09] <bishakha> agree with arne.
[15:09] <galio> yes
[15:10] <Jon-H> well, we can ask people to respond to the blog, which are simpler questions, or take Morgan's suggestion of multiple choice
[15:10] <galio> perhaps we should make two parallel questionnaires
[15:10] <aklempert> i hope that we will have something to share - along with more simple questions - after our frankfurt meeting
[15:10] <galio> one, let's say, for the general public, and another one --the current one-- for people actively involved within Wikimedia's organizational structures
[15:11] <lyzzy> galio
[15:11] <aklempert> galio, Jon-H: good, but probably better after our meeting. i just don't see how we can get up good questions and get answers and interpret the result wihtin the next two weeks
[15:11] <bishakha> and also all too busy with wiki 10 now
[15:11] <aklempert> yep
[15:12] <Morgan> We can do face-to-face interview in chapters meeting
[15:12] <Jon-H> no need to rush ... but I've put up polls on survey monkey and got results back in a couple of days
[15:12] <bishakha> maybe frankfurt meet will help us break these abstract qs down into more 'answerable' qs
[15:12] <galio> of course, I wasn't thinking of something immediate... we should get first some feedback to be sure that the questions are actually understandable :P
[15:13] <Morgan> we can put the harder questions on face-to-face interview
[15:13] <anirudh> (sorry was on phone, catching up)
[15:13] <lyzzy> mh, my posting vanished ...
[15:15] <Jon-H> I think the decision today is what we try to do between now and the meeting in Frankfurt
[15:15] <Jon-H> The response to the blog and wiki has been very disappointing
[15:15] <Jon-H> We can keep trying, or wait until after Jan 20
[15:16] <lyzzy> what changes then?
[15:16] <galio> I'd suggest villagepumping on our respective Wikipedias, so we can have at least some informal comments, even if they happen to be mostly critical
[15:16] <Jon-H> Jan 29, sorry
[15:16] <lyzzy> ok
[15:16] <aklempert> i think it's better to prepare ourselves for a broad outreach after our meeting
[15:16] <bishakha> My personal opinion is that we can try without expecting much till the meeting - really take stock at the meeting
[15:16] <lyzzy> i would propose to meet and try to get to some conclusions
[15:16] <bishakha> and 'course correct'
[15:16] <Morgan> al least we can grab the chance in chapters meeting
[15:16] <lyzzy> first
[15:17] <Jon-H> The chapters meeting, though, is not until the end of March
[15:17] <lyzzy> Morgan: yes, but it definitely wopuld help to keep people informed before we talk to them in berelin
[15:18] <aklempert> Morgan: sure, but this is much later in the process (with probably much more specific questions)
[15:18] <bishakha> Can we have this - outreach - as an agenda item at the Frankfurt meeting? If we do not already?
[15:18] <Morgan> maybe we try to ask easier question online, and keep the harder and longer question in Berlin??
[15:18] <Jon-H> We can always try easier questions on line
[15:18] <aklempert> bishakha: +1
[15:18] <Jon-H> We can also do the harder questions by Skype before Berlin, too
[15:19] <galio> I think that working on a broad outreach strategy could be our main goal for Frankfurt, indeed
[15:19] <Jon-H> Sounds like we are moving towards the second item on today's agenda ... the agenda for our meeting in Frankfuirt
[15:19] <aklempert> i hope that in frankfurt we will develop some easy-to-answer questions for a broader audience, and some specific issues that we can dive into with 1-on-1-interviews
[15:19] <Morgan> agree
[15:19] <bishakha> agree with arne
[15:19] <Jon-H> Let's add that to the agenda
[15:20] <dami_hun> I got the response in informal conversations that movement roles is really a topic that is only of interest to a small core of people – not getting responses might not be a sign of failiure if we target those who are actually interested in this in interviews, etc.
[15:20] <Jon-H> That is interesting to hear, Bence
[15:20] <Jon-H> Did everyone get a chance to look at the first draft of the agenda for Frankfurt on http://movementroles.wikimedia.org/wiki/Agenda_for_MR_workgroup_meeting_2011-1-29/30
[15:21] <Jon-H> We need to add to this more on the outreach strategy, as we just agreed
[15:21] <Jon-H> What else do we need to add or subtract from this draft agenda?
[15:21] <galio> dami_hun: from what I've got, many active contributors are actually very interested or even worried about organizational issues, i.e. the growing role of the WMF, but the questions we've proposed seem to give them no clue
[15:22] <galio> Jon-H: "# Sketch out initial draft of the charter"
[15:22] <galio> perhaps it's way too early for that
[15:23] <aklempert> galio: can be very very rough
[15:23] <aklempert> and probably will be
[15:23] <Jon-H> Perhaps it will be.  But it was part of what we proposed to the board in October, and what they agreed
[15:23] <Jon-H> We'd need to explain why we are behind schedule
[15:23] <bishakha> Galio, partly agree with you, but wonder if putting out a very rough draft will also get responses
[15:24] <Jon-H> +1
[15:24] <galio> +1
[15:24] <aklempert> bishakha: it will, i'm sure. we can even put up different versions, or a collection of theses
[15:24] <lyzzy> it is better to try to make a rough start then not to force something going on
[15:24] <bnewstead> I think it is good to work toward a draft, but we need to spend time on specific issues in our meetings and work on areas of disagreement/contention
[15:24] <Jon-H> +1
[15:24] <aklempert> bnewstead: +1
[15:24] <anirudh> I agree, putting up a draft chater will elicit responses, more people will also get a good idea what the MR project is up to.
[15:25] <anirudh> *charter
[15:25] <anirudh> even if different versions
[15:25] <bnewstead> I'd like to see us generate a list of *tough topics* and spend a lot of our time on those in the meetings.  
[15:25] <bishakha> then let's add tough topics as an agenda item too
[15:25] <bishakha> to make sure we give it concrete time
[15:25] <Jon-H> perhaps start to list these tough topics on the wiki?
[15:26] <aklempert> perhaps we can even start with that before the meeting, each of us thinking about 2 or 3 the theses that might be either controversial or consensual
[15:26] <dami_hun> galileo: it might be the case that "movement roles" as a name might not get people excited, even if the questions buried under the name might be of interest to a broader group of people.
[15:26] <galio> yup
[15:26] <lyzzy> aklempert: suppport
[15:27] <aklempert> can we have this as a homework for our next irc meeting?
[15:27] <bnewstead> The issues for the charter list is a good place to start identifying tough issues http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/Charter_issues
[15:27] <lyzzy> and collect them in the wiki
[15:27] <Jon-H> +1
[15:28] <Jon-H> bnewstead: that is the list that we all developed together in Gdansk
[15:28] <lyzzy> a question besides the concrete agenda: are we all in frankfurt friday evening
[15:28] <Jon-H> I will be
[15:28] <dami_hun> I am
[15:28] <galio> I'll be
[15:28] <bishakha> yes, i will too
[15:28] <aklempert> i'm already there ;)
[15:28] <anirudh> I'll be there.
[15:29] <bnewstead> yes
[15:29] <Jon-H> let's get together for dinner at least
[15:29] <lyzzy> will we try to have dinnerr together, do sme socializing
[15:29] <lyzzy> ah, yes
[15:29] <Morgan> Cool
[15:29] <bishakha> Sure! :)
[15:29] <aklempert> that's the whole point of having this meeting, isn't it? *duck*
[15:30] <lyzzy> hehe
[15:30] <Jon-H> :-D
[15:30] <Jon-H> I think some people may not arrive, though, until late evening, so it may not be fair to start the real agenda until Sat AM
[15:30]  * aklempert can speak freely now, because the board chair just approved our budget
[15:30] <lyzzy> ok, good to know
[15:31] <Jon-H> Shall we work on the agenda on the wiki together between now and our next IRC chat in two weeks?
[15:31] <bishakha> and let's add
[15:31] <lyzzy> maybe it would be useful to out the arriving times on the wiki
[15:31] <Jon-H> then we can finalize the agenda when we chat again on 21 Jan
[15:31] <bishakha> 'tough items'
[15:31] <Jon-H> yes
[15:31] <lyzzy> ok
[15:32] <bishakha> to the charter issues list in between too - or bring it to 21 jan meet
[15:32] <Morgan> and also the departure time
[15:32] <Jon-H> great idea to add arrival and departure times to the page on the wiki
[15:32] <aklempert> it would be very helpful if we could collect some POVs on "tough issues" and not just the issues itself
[15:33] <galio> aklempert: I can work on Catalunya
[15:33] <Jon-H> how about we agree on the list of "tough issues" on 21st, and then collect and prepare POVs for the meeting?
[15:33] <galio> +1
[15:33] <bishakha> +1
[15:34] <Morgan> bishaka: Did you try to promote MR on Asian Mailing list?
[15:34] <anirudh> agree.
[15:34] <aklempert> i still find the POV better, because it forces us to think about possible solutions instead of just naming problems
[15:35] <bnewstead> +1
[15:35] <aklempert> and i doubt that we will be able to do this in the week before the meeting. this takes time
[15:35] <bnewstead> We need to focus on areas where we disagree and work on those. Only know we disagree when we know POV.
[15:35] <bishakha> Morgan: I put your mail on India mailing list
[15:36] <Morgan> cool
[15:36] <galio> our personal POV or relevant POV on tough issues, or both?
[15:36] <bnewstead> I do think we can predict areas where POVs are likely to diverge or raise difficult MR issues for the community
[15:36] <Jon-H> That suggests that between now and the chat on 21 Jan we want to collect a list of tough issues, and the differing POVs that make them tough
[15:37] <galio> +1
[15:37] <anirudh> yes
[15:38] <Jon-H> So I think what that means is that on 21st we pick the issues that are toughest, which we will try to address on 29th/30th ... is that right?
[15:38] <aklempert> Jon-H: not two steps, just one. everybody is coming up with a handful of topics and his thinking about them (a postion, a assesement of different other people's positions, possible solutions, whatever)
[15:39] <Jon-H> Yes, we need to know that for the chat on 21st.  But I think on 21st we will not have time to resolve differing POVs, just pick which ones we are going to tackle on 29th/30th
[15:40] <lyzzy> we can try to cluster them to get our tough issues
[15:40] <aklempert> Jon-H: sure, we're not going to solve them before the meeting, but it would help to have an overview before the meeting
[15:42] <Jon-H> Agreed.  By 21st we want a list of the issues, with the differing POVs that make them tough.  We can cluster or pick the issues on 21st so we make the best use of our time on 29th 30th.  Does that sound like the right agenda for 21st?
[15:42] <aklempert> yep
[15:42] <galio> I'll try to get some POV on Brazil and Spain/Catalunya... perhaps I'll have to contact some people who have been already "formally" interviewed, namely Carol Rossini, TSB, Béria, Gomà, the WMES guys... is that OK?
[15:42] <lyzzy> yes
[15:42] <Jon-H> yes
[15:43] <galio> fine :)
[15:43] <aklempert> galio: sure, outreach to anybody who could help us identify issues or give us hints for solutions is very much appreciated
[15:43] <Jon-H> I think we have covered the first three items on the agenda ... can we touch on the fourth?
[15:44] <bnewstead> Galio - We have some good insight into Brazil from the work Carolina Rossini is doing. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Brazil_Catalyst_Project
[15:44] <Jon-H> thx
[15:44] <bnewstead> Also JonH interviewed her already.
[15:44] <lyzzy> the 4th is the draft?
[15:44] <anirudh> Scheduling of in-person meeting in Berlin in March
[15:44] <galio> bnewstead: yes, I'm aware
[15:44] <Jon-H> We've had a couple of questions about scheduling in-person meetings in Berlin
[15:45] <Jon-H> Two meetings have been suggested: one of this workgroup, and another would be a workshop on best demonstrated practices of volunteer led organizations
[15:45] <aklempert> when exactly is the chapters meeting? is it on Sat/Sun, or also on Friday?
[15:45] <Jon-H> The meetings in Berlin are now scheduled for March 25-27
[15:45] <lyzzy> it is planned to be also in friday
[15:45] <Jon-H> Fri-Sun
[15:46] <Jon-H> The WMF board meeting is Fri-Sat
[15:46] <aklempert> okay, then we have to have out meeting on thursday, i think
[15:46] <Jon-H> Shall we block of Thursday as a day for us to meet and prepare?
[15:46] <aklempert> yes
[15:46] <Jon-H> Arrive in Berlin by Weds night at the latest?
[15:46] <galio> agree
[15:47] <aklempert> yes, wednesday night it is
[15:47] <bishakha> ok, by 23rd right?
[15:47] <lyzzy> + for me
[15:47] <lyzzy> yes
[15:47] <Jon-H> +1 for me, too
[15:47] <Morgan> +1
[15:47] <anirudh> sure
[15:47] <galio> so we're having a preparatory/working MR meeting on Thu and a POV-collecting marathon on Fri-Sun
[15:48] <Jon-H> Yes
[15:48] <Morgan> sounds exciting
[15:48] <aklempert> galio: we might also want to have an exclusive session in the chapters meeting to present what we have dine so far
[15:49] <bishakha> +1
[15:49] <dami_hun> sure
[15:49] <aklempert> and perhaps also a short slot in the board meeting
[15:49] <lyzzy> but we will not only collect pov, we must prepare to present
[15:49] <Morgan> a session? or a short introduction?
[15:49] <Jon-H> Great
[15:49] <Jon-H> I also spoke today with Creative Commons about a meeting that they are planning with SJ to discuss best demonstrated practices among volunteer-led NGO, perhaps to be held on the Monday, March 28
[15:49] <bnewstead> should work for me to be there.
[15:50] <aklempert> Morgan: for the chapters meeting: i would say a session, since we probably will have something to share and to discuss by then
[15:50] <lyzzy>  a session mighht be the best way to infrom broadly and start discussing
[15:51] <aklempert> who's putting the agenda together for the chap-meeting?
[15:51] <galio> yes, a session right on Friday morning
[15:51] <Jon-H> Is not the chair of chap com Austin?
[15:51] <Morgan> How many interviews we planned to do in Berlin? As much as possible?
[15:51] <lyzzy>  it is not definitely clear, we are still looking for someone who organize it
[15:51] <dami_hun> Pavel still has to choose the program coordinator for the chapters meeting
[15:52] <lyzzy> but of course we can talk to pavel unzil that is claer
[15:52] <aklempert> galio: we might want to give to the board an progress update before that, so later would be better
[15:52] <bishakha> keep the board meeting fri-sat in mind when planning the session
[15:52] <galio> aklempert: what about two sessions?
[15:52] <galio> a presentation for all of the attendees
[15:52] <galio> and a closing report, if not a report to the board
[15:53] <Jon-H> I think that the board is expecting at least a progress update from us
[15:53] <aklempert> Jon-H: yep
[15:53] <Morgan> agree
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[15:53] <Morgan> progress update is important
[15:53] <Jon-H> Morgan: no reason why we would not try to talk to as many people as possible in Berlin, I reckon
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[15:54] <Jon-H> Quick agenda check ... I think we have covered all of the items on the agenda ... we have 5 mins left ... is there anything we need to cover in the last 5 mins?
[15:54] <Morgan> then i try we will spend some time to interview after a day of themeeting
[15:55] <aklempert> let's give Pavel and James a heads-up that we need slots in the chapters and the board meeting, then we can see how this fits with the rest of the program
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[15:56] <Jon-H> +1
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[15:56] <lyzzy> i would like to spend some minutes of our meeting in ffm to focus on the question what we try to achieve with the charter
[15:57] <lyzzy> i believe it will help us to work on the soecific topics in the meeting if we all are aware
[15:57] <lyzzy> why we are doing it
[15:57] <Jon-H> =1
[15:57] <Jon-H> +1
[15:57] <galio> yes, that's a core question
[15:58] <galio> I have to go... pleasure to meet you all, I'll do my homework for our next meeting
[15:58] <galio> bye!
[15:58] <Jon-H> bye!
[15:59] <Jon-H> I think we are done ... we have some homework for the next two weeks, and an agenda for our next chat on 21st
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[15:59] <aklempert> great!
[15:59] <Morgan> Cool
[15:59] <Jan_eissfeldt> sj| ?
[15:59] <Jon-H> Very productive chat
[15:59] <aklempert> thanks to everybody for this productive meeting
[15:59] <YairRand_> Q: Why is the movement roles wiki private?
[15:59] <lyzzy> Jon-H: can you create a page in the wiki to collect the pov statements we talked about earlier?
[15:59] <Morgan> I gotta go too. See you in the next chat. Thanks everybody.
[15:59] <anirudh> YairRand_, most of the stuff from the MR wiki has been included on Meta.
[15:59] <Jon-H> Yes
[16:00] <bishakha_> bye all, catch you on the 21st
[16:00] <anirudh> there are a few interviews that still remain private on the MR wiki.
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[16:00] <lyzzy> Jan_eissfeldt: hej :)
[16:00] <YairRand_> why?
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[16:00] <Jan_eissfeldt> moin lyzzy :)
[16:00] <lyzzy> thanks Jon-H , i will add my points then
[16:01] <Jon-H> thanks
[16:01] <lyzzy> i will l
[16:01] <lyzzy> eave my office
[16:01] <lyzzy> bye all
[16:01] <anirudh> I think that's because we will integrate their comments in our report before releasing them, instead of releasing their commentary verbatim.
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[16:02] <aklempert> YairRand_: because not everybody we're talking to is okay with having his answers documented online in public
[16:02] <YairRand_> oh
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[16:03] <bnewstead> I'm going to say my good-byes.  I will be on a short vacation and will miss the next IRC, but will provide my inputs.  See you in Frankfurt! Cheers.
[16:03] <Jon-H> Thanks Barry.   Enjoy your vacation
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[16:04] <dami_hun> bye all
[16:06] <anirudh> bye bence
[16:06] <Jon-H> bye bence