Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Hungarian Wikinews
The result of the following proposal for closing a WMF project is to CLOSE the project. Please, do not modify this page.
As a user of it, I propose to close the Hungarian Wikinews (and to import it into the Incubator).
The demand to do so is apparently growing within the Hungarian wikicommunity. Recently, the project has little activity, therefore unable to function as a news portal. As a result of that, back in early 2009, the WP community has decided to remove its News section from their Main Page. More recently, as a precursor of this proposal, the question has been raised in the pub of HUWN about whether to close the project or not: only one user opposed it in 4 weeks time. Also, showing that the HUWN never had a proper start, important policies (deletion, speedy deletion) are missing to this date.
If the project will attract enough regular users later on, and has decided about its cornerstone policies, and cleaned up the current content according to those, then HUWN should be revived. Until then, I think, it is better to move it back to the Incubator, from where it cannot reflect negatively on all the other (vital) projects, but the work on it can still continue.
For the sake of understanding, I repeat this all in Hungarian. - Xbspiro 06:16, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Ezúton javaslom a Magyar Wikihírek bezárását, illetve visszahelyezését az Inkubátorba.
Úgy látom, hogy ez a magyar wikiközösség egyre erősödő igénye. Az oldal az utóbbi időben nem igazán gyarapodik, kevés a szerkesztés, ergó nem műkődik effektív hírportálként. A Wikihírek cikkeire hivatkozó Hírek rovat – nem lévén frissítve – még 2009 elején lekerült a Wikipédia kezdőlapjáról. A bezárás lehetősége a Wikihírek kocsmafalán is fel lett vetve, amit az eltelt 4 hét alatt csak 1 szerkesztő ellenzett. Azt, hogy a projekt anno felemásan lépett ki a porondra jelzi, hogy a mai napig nincsenek például törlési irányelvei.
Később, elegendő aktív szerkesztővel, a működési kereteket (törlési irányelveket) kialakítva és a jelenlegi tartalmat átszűrve a projekt újraindítható. Addig is viszont úgy gondoldom, hogy a Wikihírek helye az Inkubátorban van: onnan aligha vethet rossz fényt a többi projektre, ugyanakkor aki szeretne, az tovább dolgozhat rajta.
(Az esetleg magyarul érkező hozzászólásokat lefordítom.) - Xbspiro 06:16, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
És hol lehet majd elérni a magyar Wikihíreket, hogy szerkeszteni lehessen? --Nyar94 13:33, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Support / Mellette
- Support, as the nominator. (A javaslatban leírtak alapján.) - Xbspiro 06:16, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Support for a long time now. the project lacks the vivid editor's life, which is required to keep a news-portal alive. Burumbátor 07:44, 12 November 2010 (UTC)Wait for now, the project's editors are extremely active for the last month, I have to see the developments. --Burumbátor 05:44, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- Support, now totally dead – BáthoryPéter 20:04, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support -FASTILY (TALK) 02:12, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support It's mostly tabloid media, which is a shame. OrsolyaVirág 14:44, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support There are mainly vandal edits and POVs. It is bad for other, working and prosperous Wikimedia projects! Samat 22:48, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support The project has no community at all, and therefor unable to enforce policies and maintain quality. There were several problems in the past with horribly biased political reportings, and with the start page being full with oddly selected no-even-minor news, while major current news events had no article at all. --Tgr 23:12, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support – FoBe 08:13, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support – Pilgab 18:03, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support - This project of the Hungarian wikicommunity has failed. Sorry. A magyar wikiközösség e lapja kudarcot vallott. Sajnos. --Beroesz 18:12, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support – Hunyadym 21:53, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support, project has been downright ridiculous for months, June news still on main page in October, useless tabloid stuff, etc. sorry, huwikinews editors, but your energy and enthusiasm would be better spent in Wikipedia. Alensha 21:56, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support - RepliCarter 23:04, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support - OsvátA 12:39, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support - Striker 19:20, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support as Burumbátor, Tgr and Alensha. Cassandro 17:33, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support - very low activity, most news items were barely notable, nowhere close to a well functioning project. --Elekhh 05:12, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support - Szajci reci 09:50, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- Support per Burumbátor and Tgr. Vungadu 16:29, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- Support – I think this project is a good idea on every Wiki, but only if there are some editors, who make it always active, and with an awake RC Patrol specialised on it. The project should be being discussed on the community portal of the Hungarian wiki, now and later also. DKakasi 09:50, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
- Support I feel guilty doing so, but its best to move it back into the Incubator. Hydriz 13:43, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
- Support provided it's moved to the Incubator. It makes me sad though. B jonas 22:01, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Oppose / Ellene
- Oppose - We don't have to close project, just find some enthusiastic editor. It is easier to save it, than make it later again. - Matteo55 17:36, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose - The wiki is starting to show some activity. I would give it some time. Kanzler31 02:11, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose - for now. There will be plenty of time to close it when it will be completely abandoned. Gondnok 09:23, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose – Einstein2 17:03, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose – Történelem p 19:06, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose - 13 million people speak Hungarian. I don't think those who only speak Hungarian should be deprived of wikinews just because it isn't active. We should give the project a fair chance - who knows, maybe an enthusiastic editor will show up, and the project will take off. --Piast93 03:48, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose per Matteo55 and Piast93. So what if some key policies are missing, or if the news coverage is not ideal? That can be easily corrected without shutting the project down. Unless the project is actively harming the WMF for some reason, I don't see what good moving it to the incubator will do - we'll simply move it back out again when interest revives (and there are several million people speaking Hungarian, so it will very likely happen). Our goal should be to expand and cultivate our multilingual free knowledge base, not shut it down like this. Tempodivalse [talk] 16:12, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose --VargaA 08:54, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose per above--Andrijko Z. 18:28, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose --Mjbmr Talk 14:04, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose --N KOziTalk 05:01, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
General comments / Hozzászólások
The community has been notified: Pub (Hungarian Wikipedia), Pub (Hungarian Wikinews). - Xbspiro 06:16, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Hungarian comments / Magyar nyelvű hozzászólások
"Azt, hogy a projekt anno felemásan lépett ki a porondra, jelzi, hogy a mai napig nincsenek például törlési irányelvei."
- Törlési irányelveket egy óra alatt lehet írni és pár nap alatt el lehet fogadni. Ha vannak szerkesztők... Én a Wikihírek-et, többekkel ellentétben, hasznosnak tartanám, ha működne. Magam részéről a szerkesztését 2010 tavaszán azért hagytam abba, mert a közeledő parlamenti választások előtt sok anon jelent meg és tettek föl propaganda-cikkeket, illetve középiskolai szint alatti írásokat. Mivel a projektnek nem volt közössége, így véleményt cserélni, szavazni sem lehetett, a születő cikkekkel pedig nem akartam közösséget állalni. Akik pedig a Wikihírek-ben korábban adminokká váltak, a projekthez oda sem szagoltak. Ha tehát a projekt visszakerül inkubátorba, annak oka nem egyes irányelvek hiánya (azok pótolhatók), hanem az, hogy a WP jelenlegi közösségéből többen a projektnek nem látják értelmét. Vadaro 18:19, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
Rendkívül sajnálatos dolognak tartom, hogy a magyar Wikihírek megszüntetése bármilyen formában felmerülhetett...
- akár a lassú fejlődés miatti elkeseredés, akár más indok motíválta a felvetést. Még sajnálatosabb dolog az, hogy Vadaro azon véleménye látszik igazolódni a szavazás kapcsán, hogy a Wikipedia jelenlegi közösségéből többen a projektnek nem látják értelmét. Sőt úgy látom, hogy egyenesen elvakultan ellenzik azt... Nem értem, hogyan szavazhat a magyar Wikihírek megszüntetésére az, aki a szabad kultúra elkötelezett hívének vallja magát. Nem értem, hogyan kicsinyelheti le bárki a Wikipedia közösségből a Wikihírek projekten önkéntesen dolgozó társainak munkáját. Az, hogy a magyar Wikihírek jelenlegi fejlettségi szintjén csak szerényebb számú publikációt képes létrehozni, egyáltalán nem jelenti azt, hogy ne lenne létjogosultsága. Emlékeztetnék mindenkit, hogy mennyi kétely kísérte magának a Wikimedia-nak a létrejöttét, hogy hányan gondolták lehetetlen vagy éppen értelmetlen dolognak... Milyen akadályokkal tűzdelt utat kellett végigjárni... És nézzük meg most!
- A magyar Wikihírek már a létezésével is felmutatja a legfontosabb dolgot: a kultúra és a hírkölés szabadságába és a a közösség erejébe vetett hitet. A magyar Wikihírek már a létezésével is teljesíti a küldetésének jelentős részét: megteremti a szabad, független hírközlés fejlődésének lehetőségét.
- A megszüntetett magyar Wikihírek pedig nem lesz más, mint mindezekről való lemondás, az eddigi áldozatos munka leértékelése. Nem a szerény keretek között való működés vet rossz fényt a Wikimediára, hanem az ilyen fajta meghátrálás.
- Kérek mindenkit, aki még bármilyen módon közben tud járni a magyar Wikihírek projekt megmentése érdekében, hogy tegye azt meg most!
Attila a Hu-n 16:34, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
Translation of Hungarian comments / Ugyanezek angolra fordítva
"Also, showing that the HUWN never had a proper start, important policies (deletion, speedy deletion) are missing to this date."
- One can compose a deletion policy within an hour, and the community can pass it in a matter of few days. Assuming that there is a community... Unlike others, I think that this project would be useful, if it would be working. Personally, I retired from editing on HUWN due to the swarm wave of anons appeared at the last spring, in the wake of the upcoming national elections. Their work consisted of propaganda and other such writings of a quality not even hitting the high school standard. By that time, HUWN was without a community, so starting a discussion or a vote [about those articles] would have been hopeless. And so, I have not wanted to be a part of a staff which produces such articles. By the way, the project administrators showed no effort to change the situation. Anyway, if the HUWN ends up in the Incubator, that will reflect the general opinion of some HUWP editors about the futileness of this project, and will not be the result of the fact, that a few policies are missing (those can be composed [at anytime]). - Hungarian message: Vadaro 18:19, 25 November 2010 (UTC); translation: Xbspiro 05:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
It is deeply regrettable that the closure of Hungarian Wikinews could have even popped into someone's mind...
- whether the trigger was the slow advance of the project or something else. It is even more regrettable that this discussion (vote) seems to confirm Vadaro's statement about the «general opinion of some HUWP editors about the futileness of this project». More than that, what I see is that they are against it, blindly. I cannot understand how can those, who proclaim themselves committed to the free knowledge, vote for the closure. I cannot understand how can they belittle the voluntary work of the editors of a sister project. It might be that, as of now, the project attracts a smaller number of contributions, however, it does not mean that it is without a meaning or purpose. Please remember that how Wikimedia itself started, encircled with doubt, skepticism, and how many people thought of it as a worthless and impossible project back then. And take a look at it now!
- On one hand, the Hungarian Wikinews, just by existing, shows important values of a society: the belief in a free culture and media and in the power of the community. This project, just by existing, fulfills a significant part of its mission: it serves as a host for the developing free press.
- On the other hand, the closure would signify that the community has given up on these, and depreciate the previous work done. It is not the slow advance what reflects negatively on Wikimedia, but such a retreat does.
- Hereby, I ask those, who are able to do something to save the project, to do it now!
Hungarian message: Attila a Hu-n 16:34, 4 April 2011 (UTC); - translation: Xbspiro 11:05, 5 April 2011 (UTC) - Thanks for the translation! Attila a Hu-n 19:38, 7 April 2011 (UTC);
I don't know what it means to "move it back to the incubator", but we should ensure in some way that the content won't be lost. If there is no general solution to this please at least let me know so that I can save the content I uploaded. Thanks, --Antissimo 11:37, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
All having said above, the content is a big ZERO. There is unfortunatey no real content at all on this website. It is a shame. --Burumbátor 16:10, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think that I put some effort into the articles I have created, so this really hurts. About 30 of them are direct translations from English Wikinews, and a few are coming from SEtimes.com - so, I am pretty sure they are hitting some kind of standard. (However, I recognized the fact that without regular editors, the project is a dead fish in the water, so I have started this discussion. I also understand the concern about what a damage might HUWN do in its current state to the image of Wikipedia, when a casual reader finds it following a link.) - Xbspiro 01:22, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- Dear Burumbátor, something might be a ZERO for you, but not for others. I accept the closure of the project, as it is not working as it should work, but the couple of articles I created are important for me, and I don't want them to be deleted. I hope Xbspiro is right and the content wont't be lost, but after this destructive comment I think it is better to save them for myself... --Antissimo 20:49, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
- Excuse my harsh words :( --Burumbátor 06:09, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
If there are no further objections to its closure, then after seven days I will ask for it to be locked and the content moved to the incubator. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 07:18, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- Bugzilla:28342 has been filed for this request. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 05:30, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Replies to votes
In reply to a few comments/votes above:
@Matteo55 Actually no content should be lost during the importing process, so it is not clear for me what "is easier to save... than make it later again."
@Elekhh @Tgr Wikinews projects share some characteristics with Wikipedia; most importantly they are written by their users, and therefore they cover events that the users are writing about. It is more or less natural that such a project does not cover a major event while it covers a less important one.
@DKakasi It was discussed earlier indoor; links have been provided in the proposal. The common method for closure is to start a conversation about it here on Meta, too.
@Samat As far as I remember, vandalism never was a serious issue in this project.
@Piast93 As incubated projects are editable, Hungarians would not remain without the chance to submit news or read older ones, if they want to do so. However, they are already deprived of it in a sense, as they cannot rely on it as a news source, because of insufficient coverage, infrequent news releases and occasional neutrality issues. In the past 30 days the project produced only three (3) articles. That should be the minimal daily amount to gain regular readers. You will not check a news portal every day, which gives you a new piece of information once a week. You will choose another one... and there are plenty of to choose from. That's why a project like Wikinews fails, if it is not updated regularly. The other Wikimedia projects can (partially) fulfill their role without the continuous effort of updating. Wikinews is different from this angle. About the fair chance you mentioned: HUWN runs since the May of 2008, and so far we stand at 650 published articles, which means that we haven't even reached one (1) article per day. This trend did not change since the start of this discussion either. The chance for it to grow, however, will not be lost by moving it into the Incubator.
@Tempodivalse Those policies would help us to maintain quality, as they would represent a community consensus, and therefore could serve as a ground for deletions. (Please refer to what is said in Vadaro's comment.) If the interest revives, then, so be it, it should be moved back out again. I would be happy to see such a development. Until then, however, as a non-functioning project, it can hurt the image of Wikimedia and its community. Since donations make these projects work, and people tend to donate money to working organizations, I have the fear that HUWN could hurt WMF, as it drives people away from donating. For the community of other Wikimedia projects of the same language, it is hard to accept collectivity with a non-functioning one. Incubated projects are those yet to start to work properly, and with that label, no such mentioned harms exist. Incubation is not equal with shutting down, although technically it requires closure first. - Xbspiro 12:25, 15 March 2011 (UTC)