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Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Navajo Wikipedia

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This is a proposal for closing and/or deleting a wiki hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation. It is subject to the current closing projects policy.

The proposal for closing nv: is currently open for discussion by the community.

  • Type: 1 (routine proposal)
  • Proposed outcome: closure
  • Proposed action regarding the content: move to Incubator
  • Notice on the project: [1]
  • Informed Group(s): (Which chapters, wiki projects, and other community groups have been informed, if any.)

Proposal

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Hi all,

Before I begin I would just like to say even though my account is new I have known Wikipedia since the early days, just didn't edit much. Now for the proposal.

I didn't want to do this because I really do believe that indigenous languages around the world should be saved. But I don't think that Wikiibíídiya, the Navajo Wikipedia, is helping. I did my research and I finally have my proposal ready.

Firstly, there is one active user: User:Seb az86556. He or she has been quite controversial by the looks of things. Whether it's refusing to speak English despite his ability to, deleting talk page messages without a reason or his talk page where he either is aggressive towards other uses, engages in edit warring or just doesn't reply at all.

Secondly, its scope is quite limited to species with complex names that have been assigned to them. I'll speak about this more in the third point.

Thirdly, the biggest reason: this could be another Scots Wikipedia. There is no way to verify a lot of these country, city and species names given on there. I did my research and it's true that Navajo used unique code names during World War II for modern topics and geographical locations, but many of these are unverifiable in any dictionary I found online. I had a look around on English Wiktionary (where Seb has also been active) and it appears that he has been accused of inventing or coining Navajo terms just for Wikipedia. The terms used on Navajo Wikipedia are complex and while given the structure of the language I cannot identify the literal meaning I would assume a Navajo tribal leader would be able to verify it (or anyone whose mother tongue is Navajo, though all of these people are in the Navajo Nation in the US and many are old). Furthermore it appears that he once used English loan words but has discarded most of them and dismissed them as "garbled English". Prior to 2017 many country articles used English loan words but these have since been deleted and replaced by other ones.

I think the best solution for now is to close the wiki and move it to the Wikimedia Incubator. I know that most project closure proposals don't end up being accepted, but I think it is worth a go. This is for the own good of the Navajo people and their effort to revive the language. It may also be useful to contact native Navajo speakers.

Sisimiut2000 (talk) 08:32, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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  • Support Looks like a very well written rationale, if a wiki can't make sure to help cooperating between different situation of users, then it should be closed despite its activity, sadly with tears, zhwikisource is currently such an example per the U4C case. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:42, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The massive difference though is that Chinese has over 1 billion native speakers in China alone. Navajo has about 170,000 speakers in total and is only spoken by Navajo people in the Navajo Nation which covers a remote area (mostly in Arizona but spilling over into New Mexico and Utah). At least other Indigenous wikis (e.g. Cherokee, Māori, Northern Sámi) have collaborative efforts even if they are small and don't use fake words. I really do hope more Indigenous languages get wikis (whether they be in the Americas or Australia or anywhere else) and I hope the Navajo Wikipedia returns one day as a collaborative effort, but for now it needs to be cleaned up. Sisimiut2000 (talk) 02:47, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yep, the current nv.wikipedia is having full of unhelpful contents, that's all we know. I would further support re-incubating on Incubator after closure. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:49, 6 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Sisimiut2000: Are you saying that Seb az86556 and SwearingCreeper are the same person? If not, what does the comment on Wiktionary have to do with this? SwearingCreeper is a sock of a globally locked user and their behavior seems irrelevant. 96.89.118.93 14:53, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Firstly, I had no idea that that user was a sockpuppet. Secondly, I was more referring to the accusation of the other user creating bullshit words that are incomprehensible. At least when other wikis coin words they loan them from other languages or make a calque so it's obvious what's being meant. Not all of them are fake though, but many are. For example there are sources online confirming that nahatʼeʼiitsoh (kangaroo; apparently "big kangaroo rat") is a Navajo word (and thus Nahatʼeʼiitsoh Bikéyah = "kangaroo land" seems logical for "Australia"), but lots of the others are unverifiable in any dictionaries or info online (for the record in Greenlandic "kangaroo" is kanngorooq and in Danish it's kænguru while Australia is just Australia in Greenlandic and Australien in Danish). Sisimiut2000 (talk) 02:38, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Sisimiut2000 In your proposal, you wrote "it appears that he has been accused of inventing or coining Navajo terms just for Wikipedia." The user who's been accused of doing that is not the one active user at Navajo Wikipedia, so you should clarify this to avoid accusing someone of things that are clearly false. You should distinguish what you're saying about Seb az86556 from what you're saying about Navajo Wikipedia in general, otherwise it's hard to trust your evidence. 71.236.131.237 17:13, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The talk page message says: "We have had issues before with users creating entries here for Navajo terms that were coined by nv.wikipedia users and have no usage in printed Navajo texts or dictionaries." Given that Seb is the only user who is active currently and has created almost every article there and has been active there since 2009 (16 years), it's quite clear that Seb is being referred to. Even if Seb does speak Navajo (AZ is the abbreviation for Arizona I looked it up and 86556 is a ZIP code mostly located in Apache County, the part of Arizona where most of the Navajo Nation is), it's still unclear how he came up with any of these protologisms. Sisimiut2000 (talk) 01:00, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi all and thanks for initiating this discussion, @Sisimiut2000: I'm the director of Wikitongues, which supports mother-tongue contribution to Wikimedia and language revitalization projects more broadly (including outside the movement). One of our fellows this year is a Diné (Navajo) educator who could help you work through the language questions that would inform a final decision. He may also be interested in getting involved. If he's interested, is there a process through which I could organize a discussion between him and the community? To my knowledge, he's not a Wikimedian, so it would like need to be off the talk pages. —Thank you! Bogreudell (talk) 22:31, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    This would be helpful, thank you. As for the behaviour of Seb let's leave that to the Wikimedians, but I would be interested to see if any of the words can be verified. Surely Ałnánoodǫ́ǫ́z Dineʼé Bikéyahdę́ę́ʼ ńdíshchíitah naʼashjéʼii azisí isn't actually what Navajo people call the Caledonian sac spider, for example.

    I looked at the word for Greenland, Haʼaʼaahjí Hakʼaz Dineʼé Bikéyah, which apparently means "Land of the Cold Eastern People". Seems to make sense if it were a WWII codename so I believe this could be true, though I would've expected a modern version to be either a loan from "Greenland" or a literal translation of "green land". The word for "Iceland" (Tin Kéyah, "ice land") sounds pretty accurate, but then I looked at the word for "Iceland gull", which is apparently Náhookǫs biyaadi tónteel tsídii, which does not contain the word "Iceland". Sisimiut2000 (talk) 03:58, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Sisimiut2000: Sounds good. I will reach out to our fellow and gauge his interest. If he's not available, he may be able to point us in the direction of someone who is. I'll be in touch soon. On a separate note, I noticed on your profile that you're a Kalaallisut speaker. Are you familiar with the ongoing dicussion about Greelandic Wikipedia? Bogreudell (talk) 19:57, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the late response, but yes that sounds good. And yes, I am aware of the discussion about the Greenlandic Wikipedia, I have voiced my support for it and raised my concerns for keeping the wiki open. Sisimiut2000 (talk) 17:18, 8 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Sisimiut2000, now is my turn to apologize for the late response. Our fellow is interested in learning more about this. He can certainly help the community validate certain words and may be interested in organizing a native speaker team to helm the project if we determine it needs that to be kept out of the Incubator. What's the best way to go about this process? He's not a Wikimedian, so we may need to start off-Wiki, say on a Zoom/Google call. Could I start an email thread and if so, with whom should I start it? Bogreudell (talk) 18:16, 8 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds great. Not sure how to go about it, perhaps you could get him to just read the wiki I guess? They all seem to be categorised and connected to Wikidata so you can just search the English article and check if there is a Navajo version available. Note that the wiki is mostly species names and geographical articles, though both have obscure names. Sisimiut2000 (talk) 06:23, 10 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As far als the "strange" lemmata used in Navajo Wikipedia are concerned, according to en:Navajo language#Vocabulary neologisms seem to be the rule in Navajo rather than the exception, and these are said to include also quite complex "Navajo descriptive terms". I do not see how the impression of a non-speaker that these neologisms are strange should be in any way relevant, as the methods of lexical expansion differ radically from one language to the other.--~2025-60094-9 (talk) 10:21, 13 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support: Potential Scots wiki situation, we have no confirmation from actual Navajo speakers that the language in use on the wiki is true to the Navajo that the Navajo tribespeople use. --~2025-26748-92 (talk) 01:38, 27 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I'm rather shocked to see this have any support at all when so far no one has presented any evidence that anything is actually wrong. Even the nominator acknowledges that they are not sure anything is wrong. Instead, we have someone who does not speak Navajo, complaining about someone who does speak Navajo, on the basis that it is possible that they are speaking Navajo incorrectly. This is, to be sure, a possibility; it's also a possibility for any other small wiki. I'd love to hear what the scholar Bogreudell mentioned has to say. Obviously if there is a problem that should be addressed. But this seems like a massive rush to judgment. And even if the nominator's concern proves well-founded, it's not clear that wiki closure would be the correct remedy. If you strip away the exoticness of this being Navajo, "This wiki is introducing original research in the names of places and species" isn't exactly what we normally think of as a critical issue requiring closure. Although, per ~2025-60094-9, a much simpler and good-faith explanation would be that these are descriptive titles not meant to represent canonical names. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 16:42, 27 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Support --Bitterbutter (talk) 16:24, 8 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the fact that nobody on Wikimedia seems to have any clue about the Navajo language is a problem in itself. Let’s say there isn’t a problem here (which I highly doubt given the long, strange animal name examples presented below). We still have a wiki with ~1 active user and no way of providing oversight and accountability because nobody here seems to speak Navajo. That is not a healthy or functional system. --Dronebogus (talk) 13:24, 9 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The fact that (as far as I'm aware) lots of Navajos refuse to use advanced technology like computers and actively oppose outsiders gaining knowledge of their language has no bearing on WMF policy. If there is even one forward-thinking tribesman who doesn't share those views and is fluent enough to maintain the wiki in an acceptable state, they should be allowed to do so, especially given the aforementioned fact that coining new words is the norm. As Francophonie&Androphile said, since when was a dispute over nomenclature grounds for closing a project either? Let's not forget that there is already a divide between Wikipedias where the policy is to use relatively obscure common names and those where only Latin names are used in article titles for species not well-known in the language's home region. In my opinion, other indigenous languages should take a page out of Navajo's book; if healthy linguistic purism efforts in the form of word coinage to avoid degeneration into what is essentially an English pidgin holding little appeal for potential learners is considered "original research", then that is some original research that I have no opposition to. Passengerpigeon (talk) 06:53, 12 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    If nobody who speaks Navajo uses it, it serves no purpose. If only one person who speaks Navajo edits it, it’s impossible to know if it even is in an acceptable state. If new learners are using words made up by one random guy on the Internet no other fluent speaker uses (and has anyone actually established this user even IS fluent?), it’s outright anti-educational. Dronebogus (talk) 04:25, 15 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    These all sound like great questions for one of the people supporting closing an active project with 23,000 articles to figure out before proposing that and casting aspersions on the wiki's main editor. We have to destroy the wiki in order to save it? That seems to be the gist of it, yeah? A bunch of noble anglophones will make sure the poor Navajo don't have to read 23,000 Wikipedia articles in a language that we've decided, for no particular reason other than ~vibes~, is being used incorrectly? You realize that there are scholars of Navajo, yes? You could contact one and ask their opinion of the wiki rather than speculating wildly and offensively. I don't know who it would be more absurd for LangCom to listen to here: Generally, the people who are supporting deleting this wiki despite not having even a basic familiarity with the well-known challenges of translating taxonomic names into a language that has never had an encyclopedia written in it, or specifically the person who is banned from proposing deletion of even a single redirect on their homewiki, but still for some reason sees themself competent to pass judgment on the fitness of entire wikis. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 20:00, 17 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    A favorable, if brief mention (pp. 38–39) in a 2013 thesis from the University of Arizona's graduate program in American Indian studies. Second link under "Want to learn Navajo?" on the Navajo subreddit. The only criticism I can find is a non-fluent speaker repeating a secondhand criticism that some of the lemmas might be flawed, which would be a great thing to follow up on with a fluent speaker, to know if this is a 1% issue or a 99% issue, but again I'll stress that's the only criticism I can find ever levied on that subreddit. Here is someone who appears to be Navajo and to use the language in conversation citing nvwiki. Here is a thread where people affirm the use of arbitrary-ish names for proper nouns in Navajo, and no one argues there's anything wrong with the nvwiki article under discussion or wrong with nvwiki in general. Is anyone else starting to get the sense that we should ask Navajo speakers what they think before deleting their Wikipedia? Surely nothing bad has happened before when English-speakers decide that indigenous communities don't need educational resources in their own languages... -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 20:35, 17 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    1) your ad hominem argument is completely irrelevant since you are referring to an editing restriction that applies to enwiki and only enwiki. 2) changing my vote to neutral as whatever is or isn’t wrong with Navajo Wiki it isn’t worth the negative publicity (or worse, personal reputational damage) of supporting its closure. Dronebogus (talk) 06:04, 29 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Passengerpigeon: Setting aside the absurdity of the situation at hand, I'm desperately curious what led you to a username I haven't used since 2012. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 20:08, 17 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Tamzin: Do you mind that? If you do I apologise. It's just a weird habit I have and in your case it is because you were one of the first people I spoke to on a talk page when I first began editing. Passengerpigeon (talk) 20:17, 17 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Wouldn't say I mind, just caught me off-guard haha; does mean you'll only be understood by others with a very long memory. Nice seeing you again! -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 20:37, 17 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – There are some indigenous communities who are strongly opposed to advanced technologies or have difficulties adopting new and advanced technology. Leaving this project vulnerable to a repeat of Scots Wikipedia situation can be detrimental for future native speakers contributing. Navajo language vocabulary may be conservative, however this may change as formulation of new terms using existing archaic terminology may be easier in the future. Ahri Boy (talk) 12:36, 2 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ahri Boy: I'm sorry, are you saying Navajo speakers don't know how to use computers? Some of the comments above were already bordering on racially prejudiced but I would think this crosses the line. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 02:07, 3 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    I mean the slow adoption and poor preservation. This is why people in these communities should learn how to preserve in digital spaces so the future members of the indigenous communities can remember the preserved traditions of the ancestors. Preservation NGOs like Wikitongues could help prevent extinction of minority languages. I should be err on the side of caution. Ahri Boy (talk) 02:18, 3 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    I also found a Reddit thread about the attitudes towards outsiders preserving Navajo language. I'm adding not a vote notice. Ahri Boy (talk) 03:21, 3 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ahri Boy: @Tamzin: You'll note that the Reddit thread you linked refutes the arguments that you just made in favor of locking the wiki, and since reading the replies to it I have realised that my earlier views about the Navajo were misconceptions and take back what I mistakenly said in my first posts (the specifics, that is; I was and still am arguing Keep). By all accounts they don't in fact live like the Amish nor do they want to keep their language a secret at any cost. Passengerpigeon (talk) 01:25, 4 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ahri Boy: "the side of caution" is closing a wiki with 23,000 articles because people who don't speak the language speculate there's a problem? That doesn't sound very cautious to me. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 03:53, 3 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • The most important thing to be done is to find an independent expert (e.g. university professor) to audit the content of wiki. Until then, most of arguments for or against closure (based on the alleged made-up terms) should be considered unfounded.--GZWDer (talk) 03:32, 3 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Ahh... Somebody should seek assistance from Arizona State University and Diné College on auditing. Ahri Boy (talk) 03:45, 3 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Some time ago, at WikiConference North America, @Bogreudell: and I had a conversation with a native speaker of Navajo, who looked at a sample of articles, including the contents of the pages in the table further down on this page, and determined that they are written in correct Navajo. Therefore, the reason for the proposed closure is simply not there. It concerns me a bit that this closure proposal was purely based on conjectures, on a non-speaker saying "this wiki might be a Scots Wikipedia situation" without providing solid evidence of this contention, and that several people simply took this at face value and supported closure based on flimsy evidence. In addition, the native speaker of Navajo that we worked with expressed interest in working with his community to improve this edition, so going forward, it would be better to engage with them more before further considering closure. DraconicDark (talk) 20:28, 7 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose closure. After further consideration closing this wiki without hard evidence of a severe problem is a terrible idea and I can’t believe I supported it in the first place. It would be a great loss to the Navajo language and culture to shut down a valuable, even if imperfect, resource for its promotion. Instead of shutting it down on a vague hunch we should actively engage with Navajo speakers and language experts to make the wiki better. Either it’s fixed or improved— a win-win either way. I’m sorry if my initial lack of sensitivity offended anyone. --Dronebogus (talk) 04:17, 5 March 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Recently (just some hours ago), I contacted a Unicode staff which, by his own-call, knows some grammars of American aboriginal languages, very likely include Navajo, that staff told me even simpler than above: I'm sure that this Wikipedia is really fake. He then told me that by his colleagues' check, the Seb az86556 eventually doesn't seem to have an US nationality, and probably holds a Green card. In such cases, the simply not there claim as DraconicDark or others claimed above is therefore and thereafter Null and Void. --~2026-22478-81 (talk) 00:30, 12 April 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    I know Unicode has grown surprisingly powerful, but this is the first I've heard that they have the ability to unmask anonymous users and research their citizenship status. If your friend exists, I'm sure he wouldn't mind creating an account, verifying his credentials, and also giving us some insight into why Unicode is apparently now employing private investigators? -- Tamzin[​cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 18:57, 12 April 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

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Ethnonyms and linguonyms

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In an October 2014 RfC "language restriction on Navajo Wikipedia" at metawiki, 정안영민 (not an L1 speaker) mentions that the word Ásáí is used to refer to Arabs (in the titles and bodies of such articles as w:nv:Ásáí Dineʼé Bikéyah Ntsaaígíí for Saudi Arabia or w:nv:Ásáí Dineʼé Bikéyah Yázhí Ałhidadiidzooígíí for UAE) or the Arabic language (w:nv:Ásáí Bizaad). If the usage already existed there is no problem, but if it was coined by a nvwiki contributor or contributors then it may be a scowiki situation. — Arlo Barnes (talk) 10:03, 17 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If Navajo code talkers in WW II had adhered to your suggestion, first asking the Japanese if they would rather be called "Japanese" or "Nippon", then asking the Germans if they would rather be called "Germans" or "Deutsch", further asking them if they felt comfortable with the idea that their submarines and aircraft be called "submarines" and "aircraft" in Navajo as in English, finally conscientiously implementing the recommendations of real-life referents, I believe that they would have enhanced the chance of Germany and Japan winning WW II, but I doubt that they would have done any service to either the US or to the Navajo community or language.--~2025-30328-77 (talk) 23:48, 27 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's a very different situation. I doubt anybody is planning to use nvwiki in wartime. Also, the code-talkers weren't only speaking in Navajo, but also actually in code, which isn't helpful for an encyclopedia with a general audience. Arlo Barnes (talk) 23:14, 26 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Species names

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As I pointed out before, Navajo Wikipedia uses very long and complex species names for species of animals that don't always have long or complex names. For example, these are the names of tortoises in the Testudininae family (a family of tortoises native to North Africa, Southern Europe and parts of Russia depending on the species):

Scientific name Common name Other names Navajo name Translation (per Glosbe)
Testudo graeca Greek tortoise Moorish tortoise
Spur-thighed tortoise 		Ghą́ą́ʼaskʼidii Biłikahii Bikéyahdę́ę́ʼ nihookááʼ chʼééh digháhii Maghreb earth tortoise
Testudo hermanni Hermann's tortoise Tó wónaanídę́ę́ʼ nihookááʼ chʼééh digháhii łitsooígíí European yellow earth tortoise
Testudo marginata Marginated tortoise Doohatsʼíí Yátiʼ Dineʼé Bikéyahdę́ę́ʼ nihookááʼ chʼééh digháhii Italian earth tortoise
Testudo horsfieldii Russian tortoise Horsfield's tortoise Biʼééʼ Łichííʼí Bikéyahdę́ę́ʼ nihookááʼ chʼééh digháhii Russian earth tortoise

Given none of these species are native to the Navajo Nation or anywhere in the US and these names are long and complex and don't appear like loan words it seems unlikely that Navajo speakers actually use these words to refer to the species. For example why wouldn't Hermann's tortoise be a literal translation, and why would Greek tortoise be Moroccan tortoise not Greek tortoise (even though it is found in both Greece and Morocco, the English name is Greek tortoise)? Sisimiut2000 (talk) 00:02, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Sisimiut2000 I responded to you above, but just to make sure you saw it - our fellow is interested in helping us on this, and may be open to organizing a team of native speakers to improve Navajo Wikipedia to prevent its reversion to the Incubator. Bogreudell (talk) 18:16, 8 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I have replied above. Sisimiut2000 (talk) 06:24, 10 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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