Requests for comment/Armenian Wikipedia tolerance

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The following request for comments is closed. Azeri administrator locked article; obviously, no actual help is wanted. Seb az86556 01:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC)


Armenian language Wikipedia[edit]

I would like to bring an issue into attention, regarding the Armenian language edition of Wikipedia. In all the maps related to Azerbaijan, such as the main article map (Armenian version as opposed to one of the versions in commons, geo-location map, all of the stub templates (stub template in Armenian language wiki vs for example stub template in English wiki), etc, there has been a manipulation of maps, removing a portion of the country. This file too is being used in numerous articles currently and affect a significant proportion of Azerbaijan related articles. Similar revisions have been made regarding the area of the country within the article too. I understand that content and POV disputes should be resolved locally, but here we are faced with a systematic distortion of facts and construction of imagined reality, and presentation of it as a fact to the Wikipedia community. Unfortunately there is no internal mechanism of resolving the issue. Users who have brought the issue up have been blocked as a silencing measure, which on its own is an abuse of admin privileges, and all the discussion pages have been deleted without any attempt to hear the positions of other Wikipedia users. No user or admin has exclusive rights to any content. Such methods serve to suppress the healthy discussion and is therefore detrimental to the spirit of Wikipedia collaboration. I am forced to appeal to the Meta-wiki and bring this issue into consideration to be resolved as soon as possible.--MrArifnajafov 09:10, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
Warning message for what?

For example, Next For example Next For example


In armenische Seit es gibt gar keine Toleranz mehr.

Sehr geehrte damen und herren

Ich möchte Sie Aufmerksam machen auf einen Problem. Ich bin ohne richtige Begründung für immer geblockt worden[1]. Ich wollte meine Meinung über diese http://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D5%8A%D5%A1%D5%BF%D5%AF%D5%A5%D6%80:Flag-map_of_Azerbaijan.png bild äußeren. In armenische Seit es gibt gar keine Tolerantnz mehr. Dort ist fremde Meinung nicht gewünscht. Wo ist dann geblieben wiki Prinzipchen? Wie lange noch die werden diese Standart Prinzipchen misshandeln?
Z.B. Artikel Aserbaidschan.
In Bezug auf die armenische Sprache Ausgabe von Wikipedia. In all den Karten, die Sie zu Aserbaidschan, wie der Hauptartikel Karte (armenische Version [2] zu einer der Versionen in Lager[3], Geo-Location-Karte, die alle die Stub-Vorlagen (Templates Stub in armenischer Sprache[4] Wiki vs beispielsweise Stub Vorlage im Gegensatz Englisch wiki[5], Deutsch Wiki[6], Français Wiki[7]), etc, gibt es eine Manipulation von Karten sind, das Entfernen eines Teils des Landes. Diese Datei wird auch in zahlreichen Artikeln und derzeit benutzt beeinflussen einen erheblichen Teil von Aserbaidschan verwandten Artikeln. Ähnliche Änderungen wurden gemacht für den Raum der das Land innerhalb der Artikel auch[8]. Ich verstehe, dass Inhalt und POV Streitigkeiten lokal aufgelöst werden sollen, aber hier sind wir mit einer systematischen Verzerrung der Tatsachen und den Bau von imaginierten Wirklichkeit und Darstellung der es als eine Tatsache, die Wikipedia-Gemeinschaft konfrontiert. Leider gibt es keine internen Mechanismus der Lösung des Problems. Benutzer, die die Ausgabe von bis haben als Silencing Maßnahme, die auf eigene ist ein Missbrauch der Admin-Rechte, und alle Diskussionsseiten haben, ohne jeden Versuch, die Positionen zu hören gelöscht worden gesperrt gebracht haben von anderen Wikipedia-Nutzer. Nr. Benutzer oder Administrator besitzt die exklusiven Rechte an den Inhalten. Solche Methoden zur gesunden Diskussion unterdrücken dienen und ist daher schädlich für den Geist der Zusammenarbeit gelistet. Ich bin gezwungen, auf die Meta-Wiki Attraktivität und bringen das Thema in Rücksicht, so bald wie möglich gelöst werden.

Ich bitte Sie in diese Diskussion teilzunehmen und ihre Meinung zu äußern.

Dafür werde ich sehr dankbar.

Bitte, dieses problem zu untersuchen.--PPerviz 19:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Warning message for what?[edit]

Erste Beispiel. Nächste Beispiel: Nächste Beispiel: Today You have sent warning message to my talk page. "Հարգելի խմբագրող, Ձեր կատարած վերջին խմբագրումները որակվում են որպես վանդալիզմ կամ սադրանք." It's my contributions page. I have done 3 changes in this wikipedia. What have I done for this? Vandalism? Spam? Provocation? or what? I want discuss, why that page not correct?. Answer my question.--PPerviz 19:10, 31 Հոկտեմբերի 2010 (UTC)

Третая, и вы это знаете............,я поправил шаблон, можете спокойно спать ночью, а этот футболист Ровшан по вашему кто?, помоему спихапат. 6AND5 19:31, 31 Հոկտեմբերի 2010 (UTC)

"This map is false! Replace with original!--PPerviz 17:59, 31 Հոկտեմբերի 2010 (UTC)" Разве не так? Это провокация? Вам нужно доказательство? Хотел бы обсудить об cтатье Азербайджан, ваш друг удалил мои обсуждения, и вы отправили предупреждение к страница обсуждение. Что это значит? Это правильная реакция?--PPerviz 22:24, 31 Հոկտեմբերի 2010 (UTC)

Dear PPerviz, Edittions you ve done weren't included all the reasons, that could devilope Wikipedia, that why they were cencelled. As well as other Azeri editions for the same reason were cencelled. --Alex_alex 22:47, 31 Հոկտեմբերի 2010 (UTC)

Да это провокация, и вы это хорошо знаете, и не надо обсудить эту тему, будете еще раз так делать то и вы отправетесь за Ровшаном. Тема ЗАКРЫТО6AND5 07:01, 1 Նոյեմբերի 2010 (UTC)

Вы заблокироваете бессрочно что Я еще раз участвоваю на обсуждения? Ты нарушаешь правилам Википедии. Здесь не ваш блог что вы удалите мой обсуждения и отправите предупреждение. --PPerviz 23:38, 1 Նոյեմբերի 2010 (UTC) --MrArifnajafov 09:07, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Comments[edit]

I second the comments above. The main problem here is that there is no internal mechanism working here to prevent admin abuse. Admins block users with very few edits indefinitely. This kind of block is for the most serious offenses. There is no way one can ascertain from this few edits that the user deserves to be banned from Wikipedia indefinitely. This tool is clearly used by admins to suppress the users. Wikipedia resources can not be used to carry out political agenda of local admins. This matter needs to be dealt immediately and serious measures need to be implemented.TimBits 19:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
And the admins of Azerbaijani division go on in calling names and placing two categories in the article about 2000-year-old pagan Armenian deity of fertility: Categories - Armenians, prostitution. And Meta community keeps silence. Great! Zara-arush (talk) 23:03, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
Let us not confuse content disputes with blatant factual distortions for political purposes. We have content disputes in all wikis, and all users are able to bring their points to discussion, people are not blocked or prevented from disputing the content, unlike the Armenian language edition of Wikipedia. Users of the Armenian language Wikipedia, nor its admins, are allowed to make up facts as they wish and present them as reality, utilizing the resources of the Wikimedia Foundation, which we all over the world, support by our donations. Simply put, no section or project within Wikimedia Foundation can be used for this purpose. It is therefore, our right to demand a remedy where no local solution can be found, quite unlike the issues that have been raised by the user above, which understandably are local matter and thus not dealt here in meta. TimBits 23:34, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I propose partial solution: do not use maps with flags - use country flags only. -- Bojan  Talk  06:49, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Ich finde in solche Situation statt fantasie Karte soll internotional annerkante Karte und korrekte Flag logo verwendet werden. Das wäre optimal. (I find this situation rather than fantasy card is internotional anner edge map and accurate flag logo are used. That would be optimal.)MrArifnajafov

Well... I guess. Seb az86556 04:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

We don't have to guess :) - ru:Грузия. These issues are not even comparable. No one in Russian wiki is blocked indefinitely to prevent an issue being brought forward. Furthermore, one is based on a disputed state recognition by several UN members, another is based on what? Armenian Wikipedia users' imagination? Even if the article was about current lines of control, that could be understood, but to arbitrarily draw a map in Wikipedia and parade it around in all related articles as if it is a real fact, is not acceptable. TimBits 05:38, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
I was just pointing that out; so what do you suppose should be done? Mass de-sysopping? I'm assuming that that would be the only option... since there seems to be an admin-wide agreement (otherwise, they would have kicked the offending admin out already). Is this similar to the Aceh-we-don't-want-Mohammed-pics? Seb az86556 06:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
De-sysoping is detrimental to a wiki. We should be careful not to take any measures that would harm the Armenian wiki project in the long-run. I would suggest that official warning be given with explanations as to why this is unacceptable. This situation is a bit different than preventing something from being shown, not only what is factual is being prevented and considered non-existent, a new constructed set of facts are presented instead. TimBits 13:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Agree. So... has anyone over there been notified or invited to respond? Seb az86556 01:55, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Yes, users related to events are already notified. Furthermore, stewards may need to reactivate some of the talk pages, as shown above, admins have deleted some pages, again to downplay the position of users they do not agree with. TimBits 02:49, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
The map in question is used to describe the current de facto borders of Azerbaijan. There has been a consensus in a discussion to consider de facto borders as important as de jure borders in case of Azerbaijan/Nagorno-Karabakh question. So that's why we use this map. This does not mean Armenian Wikipedia "does not accept" UN recognized maps; those are used in the Armenian Wikpedia as well. I don't believe there is any violation of the rules of the Wikimedia Foundation. At least we don't use maps with nationalistic ambitions like this one and we don't tell our readers that the city of Gyumri for instance is located in west Azerbaijan. -- Vacio 07:10, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
The map in question is used to describe the current de facto borders of Azerbaijan- It does not, it excludes all the areas claimed by Armenians, whether controlled or not, and at the same time it also excludes areas of Azerbaijan occupied by Armenia but not claimed.
There has been a consensus in a discussion to consider de facto borders as important as de jure borders in case of Azerbaijan/Nagorno-Karabakh question.- There is no such consensus, all the users who has brought up the issue has been either blocked indefinitely (and that with a few edits), or threatened with the same. Some of the talk pages above has been deleted altogether from the wiki. These constitute admin abuse and warrant at least a warning. Since all admins are complacent in this matter it is up to the Wikimedia Foundation, whose project is being hijacked, to act upon this. Furthermore, this is not an issue to be decided by local consensus or any democratic means. Facts can not be created or ignored even if the majority agrees so. If the article in question is about war, current lines of control, territory claims, etc, then you may use maps that are relevant to this issue. As it is being done in other wikis. On the other hand, if the article is about Azerbaijan, it's not up to the Wikipedia community to decide what its proper borders and area are. Internationally accepted, factual information needs to be presented. But in this wiki it is being ignored and those who bring it up are silenced using administrative tools. Hence, the violation of the Wikimedia rules and the need for correction.
At least we don't use maps with nationalistic ambitions...- if any user has certain grievances, they always have a right to bring this up. Either here, or in the relevant wiki. This issue is here because, it is beyond being solved locally, unlike the issues above, which you may think needs to be answered. Those, like any issue, are open to discussion and people are not being banned indefinitely for trying to discuss matters that admins do not wish to be discussed. TimBits 16:36, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
Well said. Agree. Seb az86556 01:16, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Ab heute das ist eine Protestform gegen armenische Verfälschung. Ordnung muss sein, oder jeder macht was er will.MrArifnajafov 22:56, 21 November 2010 (UTC)


From today This is a form of protest against armenian falsification. Must have order, and everyone does what he wants.MrArifnajafov 22:56, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

No, i've reverted that. It's not very helpful. Really. Seb az86556 23:57, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Why did you not revert armenian fake?--PPerviz 00:18, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Because that's what we're talking about. You don't make it better by adding more crap from the other side. Seb az86556 00:21, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Können Sie uns eine Garantie geben, dass die andere Seite vernüftig wird.
Can you give us a guarantee that the other side is very sensible

.MrArifnajafov 00:50, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

No, I cannot give you a guarantee. (by the way, can you settle on English or German?) Seb az86556 00:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Dann kann ich auch keine Garantie geben.MrArifnajafov
Hm. Then what you're saying is: In addition to this, we will then have to start another discussion on what Azeri wikipedia is doing? That only makes it more complicated. You came here for help, no? If you start doing the same things they are doing at Armenian wikipedia, then I'm afraid you cannot be helped. Seb az86556 01:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
I see you have reverted and locked the article. This conversation is over. You cannot be helped. Seb az86556 01:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Das ist Ihre Sache. Und Sie sollten mit armenische Seite so reden nich mit uns. Wenn Sie keine Garantie geben können was sollen wir von Ihnen warten? Gar nichts!MrArifnajafov91.213.20.1 01:17, 22 November 2010 (UTC)