Requests for comment/POV in Chechen Wikipedia

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The following request for comments is closed. See Requests for comment/Massive sysop abuse in Chechen Wikipedia

Statement by Ymblanter[edit]

Disclaimer. I am opening this RFC since I was asked by Дагиров Умар for help. I did perform my own research and I give here my opinion, not his (I refer to clear attribution of his opinion when necessary). However, I do not speak Chechen, and I rely on his translations and also on his assessment of the situation in general. I do not want to be involved in the situation, but if necessary I will help through this RFC with translations and providing background information. From what I remember, I have zero contributions to Chechen Wikipedia and I clearly was not involved in the dispute previously, so that I do not think I am biased in any sense. I also do not want my position in the dispute be taken for my political standing. Note that Дагиров Умар does not speak English. --Ymblanter 09:00, 27 January 2012 (UTC).

Background information. Chechen language is spoken in the en:Chechen Republic. The republic (as a part of the Chechen-Ingush Republic) was part of Soviet Union from the 1950s to 1991, then it experienced two wars with a party claiming an independent state on one side and the pro-Russian party aided by Russian troops on the other side. At some point, much of the area of the republic was controlled by pro-independent forces, but in the end pro-Russian side won, and en:Akhmet Kadyrov was appointed to be the president. After his assassination, his son, en:Ramzan Kadyrov, became the president at the age of thirty. He remains the president, and any criticism of him in the Chechen Republic may be dangerous to raise. The guerilla war is basically over, but there are ethnic Chechens still supporting the idea of national independence, many of them living in Europe and in the US.--Ymblanter 10:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

The statement starts. Several days ago, Дагиров Умар (reads as Dagirov Umar) left a question on a Russian village pump in Commons, where I am an active contributor, concerning a specific question on vandalism in Chechen Vikipedia. This is a link to the last message of the tread. He complained, in particular, that existing sysops and bureacrats were inactive, and nobody was fighting vandalism. I suggested him to apply for a temporary adminship and helped him to file a request. The request was eventually granted for three months on January, 20. I must add that even though I knew Umar from the period when I was active in Russian Wikipedia, more than 7 months ago, I never had any previous correspondence with him, nor did I work with him on any common projects. I however had an impression of Umar as of a trustworthy person.

Yesterday evening he sent me a message asking for help and telling me that he was threatened to be blocked in Chechen Wikipedia. Indeed, I discovered that in 2011 the Chechen Wikipedia had rather low activity, with little maintenance work (I did not check statistics though and I might be wrong on this point). From the time Umar got a temporary sysop flag he started maintenance work. This is a typical example of his edits, which comes on top of an article out a village in the Chechen Republic created by another user in November 2011. Whereas I do not speak Chechen and can not understand all the details, I clearly see that, in particular, this edit changed the state attribution of the village, from independent Chechen state to Russian Federation, in the infobox. After a number of these edits, Umar Dagirov got a message on his talk page from Dagger, a sysop who did not edit since February 2011 with the exception of one edit in October 2011. I asked Umar to translate this message into Russian, and this is the translation he provided:

Послушай дружище тут это слово Российское Федерация не пиши, говорю тебе последний раз, если ещё раз в чеч вики напишешь Российское Федерация заблокируем, и выбросим из вики ты должен знать что Чеченское государство Ичкерия признана 3 государствами и не имеет никакого отношение к Российской Федерации кроме границы. БОЛЬШЕ НЕ ПОКАЗЫВАЙ ТАКОЕ НЕ МУЖСКОЕ ПОВЕДЕНИЕ.

My English translation follows.

Listen friend, do not use here the words "Russian Federation", I am telling you this for the last time. If you ever write "Russian Federation" in the Chechen Wikipedia again, we will block you and throw out of the wiki. You should know that Ichkeriya, the (independent) Chechen State, has been recognized b y three states and has no relation to Russian Federation except for the state border. THIS BEHAVIOR IS NOT WORTH OF A MAN

In half an hour, even though Umar Dagirov did not make further edits, Dagger blocked him for the time of indefinite, citing (in Russian) the reason as "adding false information". From the context, it is clear that "false information" is that the Chechen Republic is a part of Russian Federation. Later on, Дагиров Умар unblocked himself, but did not make further edits.

In all articles on villages Russian Federation was replaced back with Chechnya by someone acting from Belgian IP 62.235.129.170 on January 27. This is the only contribution from this IP.

At the same time, Sasan700, a bureaucrat who had no edits since October 2011, deleted a page on Ramzan Kadyrov. I do not know what was on the page, but Umar Dagirov mentioned that it was written there (before he cleaned it up) that Ramzan Kadyrov was born to a pig (obviously a hard insult for a Muslim).

Just to draw an analogy, removing mentioning on Russia it would be the same as if in Spanish Wikipedia the article on en:San Fransisco would state Mexico as the country, and someone after correcting it to the USA would get a warning and then immediately got permablocked.

I thus conclude that currently NPOV is not implemented in Chechen Wikipedia, and thus Chechen Wikipedia does not serve the WM mission. This is implemented through a group of users who are admins and bureaucrats there. This is a situation which reminds me the one with the Acehnese Wikipedia in the past.--Ymblanter 10:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

My suggestions. First, I think we should have a discussion here. I request stewards to notify the related users in Chechen Wikipedia (this can be done in English since Sasan700 is a resident of Belgium and claims en-4, and I believe Dagger is also a European resident). I have very little hope that we cold come to any sensible conclusion. In that case, I would suggest to desysop all sysops of the Chechen Wikipedia, and introduce provisional sysops like it was done recently with Mari Wikipedia.

I do not like the situation in General, since Дагиров Умар is a resident of the Chechen Republic, and the name of his account might very well be his real name. In this situation, he is amenable to the Russian / Kadyrov POV, and if he stays as the only admin it could be difficult for him to resist any attempts of the authorities (if any) to introduce POV. This might be dome much more efficiently in collaboration with European residents. However, demanding that Russia should not be mentioned in the Chechen Wikipedia is in my opinion going over the top. I think this is the instance the Foundation should step in. --Ymblanter 10:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

How many users do we have who understand this language, for instance on ru.wiki? They should be involved. Unless things are explained, it's better to desysop all users, unblock the users who were blocked and then assign temporary adminship after a new election, from a broader base of users if possible.
It's hard to tell who has been active there because I notice many deletions and revision deletions which hide edits. Nemo 17:44, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I have no idea, especially since I have no account in ru.wiki. I will try to contact someone to figure this out.--Ymblanter 18:17, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment. Dagger is a strange account. He only has 95 edits on cewiki (and globally), but is a local sysop. Ruslik 19:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
    • Indeed. Promotion log: [1] - although I'm not able to translate the summary. -- MA 19:42, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Здравствуйте. Посмотрите пожалуйста чем занимаются администраторы [2]. -- Дагиров Умар 19:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Там написано что Дагестан является субъектом Чечни. -- Дагиров Умар 19:38, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
My translation: Please look what the ce.wiki admins are doing: [3]. It is written there that en:Dagestan is a part (a subject - similarly to federal subjects of Russia) of Chechnya.--Ymblanter 19:55, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Dagger[edit]

Moved from the talk page by --Ymblanter 20:02, 27 January 2012 (UTC) Umar Didigov repeatedly been told that he could not write in Chechen, he does not own literary Chechen language, so - as a native of the Republic of Dagestan, and speaks a different dialect of the Chechen language. By knowing the language, he has no right to write what he zablagorazumitsya, it just spoils the Chechen Wikipedia. My patience ran out when he saw that he was always ranked among the Chechen State of the Russian Federation if he wants to write about Russia, let him go in the Russian Wikipedia, the Chechens have to write here about my country etc. 83.134.107.137 19:46, 27 January 2012 (UTC) Dagger

Ошибки я исправлю это дело времени. -- Дагиров Умар 20:28, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
My translation: I will correct the errors, this is just a matter of time--Ymblanter 20:38, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Угрозы[edit]

Администратор Sasan700(A,Д) угрожает мне пишет что приедет и разберется со мной и выражается матом [4]. -- Дагиров Умар 23:00, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

My translation: The administrator Sasan700 threatens me by physical abuse (link in Chechen).--Ymblanter 10:11, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Что ты гонишь здесь? ты даже читать не умеешь на чеченском языке! Сперва ответь на мои вопросы заданные в твоем обсуждении. Да еще; что ты на мутил в переводе meta копируя то, что я переводил, кто тебя допустил на эти переводы? Зачем все портиш? если не знаеш чеченский язык, скажи не знаю, тебя никто насильно не заставляет переводить, не мучай людей, так там ты все что не смог скопировать оставил на русском языке.Sasan700 23:38, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
My translation: Do not lie! You can not even read Chechen. First answer my questions on your talk page (a link in Chechen). And also: why did you write an incorrect translation meta copying what I translated, who permitted you to make these translations? Why do you break everything? If you do not speak Chechen, say that you do not speak it. Nobody forces you to translate. Do not abuse people, whatever you were not able to translate you left in Russian.--Ymblanter 10:11, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Just little correct of 1st sentence translation (emotional content): "Why are you tripping, babe?!" [5]--Soul Train 19:04, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Actually "Why do you lie/why do you talk rubbish/why do you bullshit" are pretty much accurate translations in this context. Russavia 14:50, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Откуда я скопировал твои переводы.

Я даже не хочу перевести то что ты мне написал в разделе Коьрта агlона лакхен борз. -- Дагиров Умар 23:59, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Я не думаю что администратор имеет право угрожать расправой. -- Дагиров Умар 00:03, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
My translation: Where did I copy your translations from? I do not even want to translate what you have written me in Section Коьрта агlона лакхен борз. I do not thing that an admin has an authority to threaten by physical abuse.--Ymblanter 10:12, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
It will be the best for everyone if you guys can communicate in English as well. Bencmq 03:53, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  • К сожалению не смогу написать на английском, поэтому пишу по-русски. Leider kann ich nicht gut genug Englisch, und muss deswegen in russisch schreiben. - обратите внимание на высказывание участника тут - [6]. "Твоим лозунгам никто не сочувствует, как пришли так и уйдут! Я свидетель как их вывозили в гробах, за одну ночь отправили обратно домой целую дивизию РФ. Не надо раздувать здесь националистические идеи и создавать антинацистские имена Русские идут! к примеру; если я в русской вики зарегистрируюсь под именем "Чеченцы идут!" то меня баз предупреждения забанят. Так что в че-вике не умничай." Уже за такие фразы надо блокировать глобально, как за разжигание межнациональной вражды и расизм. Я представляю, что такой администратор мог сделать из целого раздела. Так что кроме глобальной блокировки надо ещё и разбираться с его вкладом. Википедии не нужны расисты, тем более расисты-администраторы. --Letzte*Spieler 22:29, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Translation: Take a note of the user’s statement here — en:User talk:Русские идут!. «Nobody sympathizes with your slogans, the same way they came, the same way they will go away [here’s obviously meant the meaning of the username „Русские идут!“: „Russians are coming!“]. I am the witness of taking them away in coffins, the whole division of Russian dead soldiers was taken home within one night. No need to boost nationalistic ideas here and to register anti-Nazi usernames e.g. „Russians are coming!“; if I register in Russian Wikipedia under username „Chechens are coming!“, I will be blocked without a warning. So don’t be such a smart aleck in Chechen Wiki.» One should be blocked globally just for for these sentences, which stir up national hatred and racism. I can imagine what such an administrator could do with the whole Chechen Wikipedia edition. So besides the global block, one should look into his contributions. Wikipedia has no need in racists, moreover racist administrators. --91.76.13.51 14:18, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Мир[edit]

Здравствуйте. Мы с участниками Sasan700 и Dagger договорились атом, что я не буду править статьи про Чечню точнее не буду писать, что Чечня находится составе России, а также я понял, что наш спор не к чему хорошему не приведет, так как нас и так в че вики несколько участников. Спасибо за внимание. С уважением -- Дагиров Умар 15:11, 31 January 2012 (UTC).

My translation: Hello! Users Sasan700, Dagger, and myself decided that I will not edit articles on Chechnya, or, to be presice, I will not mention that Chechnya is a part of Russia. I also realized that our argument leads to nowhere, since we are several users in ce.wp. Thank you for your attention. Sincerely.--Ymblanter 21:06, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Unacceptable that an editor is editing on Chechen wiki, and he is being sidelined from editing on articles relating to Chechnya, because he mentions that Chechnya is part of Russia. If this is the case, then not only does Dagger need his bit removed (as per below), but Sasan700 also need some further investigation for any abuse that may have occurred. Russavia 11:49, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Statement 2 by Ymblanter[edit]

The situation seems to be resolved in the sense that nobody is currently blocked and nobody is going to beat anybody else at the moment. I still do not quite see how POV is implemented on Chechen Wikipedia, and how someone can still remain a sysop and a bureaucrat after threatening by physical abuse, but I have no business in Chechen Wikipedia, and if the Foundation is not interested (and, apparently, no one but myself is interested), let it stay like this.--Ymblanter 21:10, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

You don't need the Foundation, the Foundation never solves any such problem on wikis. It's good to hear that nobody is currently blocked, but this not really enough. There were some pages with deleted pages, for instance (IIRC): have those been restored, if any abusive deletion happened? Are we sure the sysops aren't threatening users with further blocks? And if there's been abuse in the past, those sysops must be removed by stewards anyway. Nemo 11:03, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Ymblanter, I have perused the links and other information you have given, and without understanding Chechen, I can only say that what you have presented is a true and accurate picture of what has occurred. Looking at Umar Dagirov's block log on cewp the last entry definitely shows that he was indef blocked with the reason being given (in Russian) of "Вставка ложной информации" --- adding false information. That the block came as you said half an hour after this message was left (and without having any doubt as to it's translation into Russian or English), then this presents a real problem with admins on cewp. In particular, User:Dagger should have his bits removed for abuse. Russavia 11:45, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
If he has so few edits, as said above, perhaps the crat who gave him access should be investigated too. A CU might be of use, perhaps? Could be an alternate account for controversial sysop actions. Nemo 12:19, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
I perfectly agree with all of the above, but I am not a CU and not a steward. I have no authority over removing flags and I am not sure how to proceed.--Ymblanter 12:40, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Stewards can determine here whether there's consensus for removal. As for the CU, fishing is not allowed, so some investigation is probably needed to understand who that account may be linked to, and then a request may be placed on SRCU. Nemo 15:22, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Здравствуйте мне пришлось покинут проект. -- Дагиров Умар (talk) 09:31, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
My translation: Hello, I had to quit the project.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:44, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
So, WMRU will regulate the activity. --Википедия (talk) 00:24, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
This could actually make things worse; maybe an uninvolved chapter that is not perceived as the imperialist colonizer would be better. Seb az86556 (talk) 02:30, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Chechen Wikipedia may be a relative of Ingush Wikipedia. So, we need more native speakers to fight vandalism. --Википедия (talk) 07:02, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
This message was left by sock who was permablocked the same day.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:07, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
I am a relatively new user but was impssed with the level of democracy and level of competence of burecrats of Ru Wiki. It is unacceptable that some users persistently vandalise Chechen Wiki in the mentioned site. I believe that RU Wiki burocrats should be involved. Small wikis are unfortunately succeptible to this kind of abuse by admins and I am raising a not to dissimilar case on Ukraine Wiki. Oxy20 (talk) 02:42, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
@Ymblanter. Чръный человек, one of the most productive Russian users and a very decent one, who has made over 92K edits throughout the Wikimedia projects never being blocked for any violation, still remains indefinitely blocked without any reason given, for only doing a series of three good-faith edits to an article. --glossologist (talk) 15:35, 8 April 2012 (UTC)