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Verzoek om commentaar/Oplossen enorme inbreuk op auteursrecht op Wiktionary in Esperanto

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Latest comment: 1 year ago by SHB2000
This page is a translated version of the page Requests for comment/Resolve massive copyright infringement on Wiktionary in Esperanto and the translation is 100% complete.
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The following request for comments is closed. Closing as inactive; no human edits since August 20, 2022. --SHB2000 (t • c) 05:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Aankondigingen

Motivering

Robin van der Vliet meldde in een discussie op het Kompetuko-kanaal op Telegram dat de Esperanto-versie van Wiktionary vol zit met materiaal dat illegaal is geïmporteerd van Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto (PIV) en Reta Vortaro (ReVo).

Hier is de oorspronkelijke verklaring (in Esperanto):

Sed mi persone ne tre rekomendas, la kvalito de tiu projekto estas vere malbona, kaj en ĝi nun ankaŭ troviĝas multaj artikoloj kontraŭleĝe kopiitaj de PIV/ReVo. Mi mem jam plene rezignis pri ĝi, mi pensas, ke estas pli bone fokusiĝi je la plibonigado de ReVo

Er is ook aanvullende informatie verstrekt die bevestigt dat het gaat om regelmatige onwettige bijdragen. (Tegen de wetgeving van het PIV/ReVo.)

Er moeten wat acties worden uitgevoerd, zoals:

  • het verwijderen van het overeenkomstige materiaal
  • beoordelen van de mogelijkheid om de situatie te reguleren door middel van een verzoek om de licentie van de oorspronkelijke werken in een compatibele licentie en bijwerken van de betrokken pagina's om de juiste credits te brengen

In ieder geval kunnen de eerste stappen zijn:

  • lijst van aangetast materiaal met vermoedelijke inbreuk
  • betrek de Esperanto Wiktionary gemeenschap om te zien wat we samen kunnen doen
    • beoordelen van de werkelijke situatie,
    • zien wat we moeten doen als er daadwerkelijk een actie moet worden gedaan

Tot nu toe gaat dit probleem alleen over een vermoedelijke auteursrechtinbreuk, gezien de inbreng van Robin. Maar het moet ook worden meegenomen dat er materiaal is dat ReVo gebruikte bij zijn eerste uitgave (1997), dat expliciet is overgenomen uit Plena Vortaro (PV), dat toen al in het publieke domein was. ReVo zelf valt onder de GPL.

PIV is ook afgeleid van PV, met een eerste release in 1970. Het is nu vrijgegeven onder volledig auteursrecht.

Hieronder volgt een lijst van enkele voorbeelden van auteursrechtinbreuken (op het moment van de melding), in tegenstelling tot iets dat wettelijk uit PV is overgenomen en ook voorkomt in PIV en ReVo omdat ze deze gemeenschappelijke voorloper hebben. Dankzij Taylor die deze voorbeelden rapporteerde en al veel andere soortgelijke problemen had aangepakt.

Dat gezegd hebbende, zelfs als er geen auteursrechtinbreuk was en al het gekopieerde materiaal uit het publieke domein van de PV zou komen, zou het werk op elke pagina correct vermeld moeten worden. Niet alleen om aan de wet te voldoen, want PV werd in Frankrijk geredigeerd waar Auteursrecht zonder tijdslimiet een naamsvermelding bevat, zelfs voor werken in het publieke domein. Maar de wil om auteurs erkenning te geven en het vermogen om informatiebronnen voor ons publiek te traceren, zou voldoende reden moeten zijn om dat te realiseren, want het draait allemaal om respect voor menselijke waardigheid.

Discussie

Latest comment: 4 years ago16 comments5 people in discussion

Taylor reported in the Phabricator ticket:

Unfortunately, we have several contributors (many of them sysops or bureaucrats) involved in copying large amounts of content from copyrighted online dictionaries to wiktionaries. Most likely they are not aware that this is copyright infringement. Some of them argue with "free for educational use".

This is clearly something which should be fixed. No matter each individual opinion of copyright, our line of conduct within the Wikimedia project scope is not infringe it.

A first step we could engage is to list all people that were involved in unlawful contributions, and address them a clear message that their future contribution must never again include bare copy/paste of copyrighted material (expect in the conditions permitted by law of course). It would probably good to invite them all to contribute to this present RFC.

Here are some avenues for reflection on this point.

A first point is "when can it possibly be done". Ideally, the sooner, the better, of course. If at publishing time using some hook system we could trigger some checking system that unsure the content is not most likely a copy/paste from PIV/ReVo minus PV, and refuse to save the contribution if it seems positive. That seems "not impossible" but probably somewhat more complex to put in place. It also make the concern of false positive more critical, since it would implies that legitimate contributions would become impossible.

An other way to deal with that in a mostly automatic way would be to use bots to perform the bull of the work.

In any case, it seems difficult to prevent this regular copyright infringement without using the copyrighted material itself. For ReVo, it's less problematic as it's GPL, no legal issue would prevent from having a local copy to check against it the Vikitortaro material. For PIV, it's more tricky: I'm not aware of any possibility to legally acquire a full digital copy, even for keeping in a non-shared space in order to perform the necessary control steps discussed here.

I know the Wikimedia community already have many tool to help with patrolling, but I am insufficiently knowledgeable on this topic and feedback of people with more expertise on this point would be highly valuable.

Possible useful resources:

Psychoslave (talk) 18:31, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Roadmap

  • Deal with contributors who already committed copyright infringement
    • list them
    • prepare and send a message to inform them that copyright infringement is unwelcome in Wikimedia spaces, provide recommendations on what are welcome contributions, and recall what might be possible consequences if they fail to adopt a behavior which matches the Wikimedia policies.
    • invite them to participate in this RFC
  • Deal with existing copyright infringment
  • Deal with future attempt of copyright infringment
  • See what is the state of affair, especially regarding administrators and burocrats involved (ie. is Pablo still admin and abusing its privileges to enforce unlawful contributions)
    • Possibly, find a committee to seize and fill a request to remove technical privileges from people abusing them and banning those who are striving for acting according to Wikimedia principles (ie. acting legally)
  • Transcribe Plena Vortaro on Wikisource
    • upload a PDF on Commons
    • create the corresponding work on Wikisource
    • evaluate the mis. available OCR efficiency on the PDF on hand, possibly try to find on other digital copy of the work if that proves unsatisfying
    • proofread
    • integrate PV material that is relevant and not yet present into Vikivortaro
    • extract PV data in a way usable for dealing with false positive cases of copyright infringement (see next point)
  • Create an automation tool to deal with copyright infringement
    • state of the art: what are other projects doing to deal with this kind of issue?
    • specify more precisely requirements for an automated solution
    • implement something that meet the previous requirements (bot/hook)

Misc

I do not oppose hanging of -eo- wiktionary if convicted of piracy (which is very likely to happen given that I know the case details better than anyone else, and they are not pleasing at all), but other wiktionaries with same problems must get same punishment. WMF has been reluctant to this problem for too long time. It should not have come so long. The involved sysops and bureaucras should have been warned, and if needed desysopped, debureaucratized or banned many years ago. I would welcome creating a bot detecting and labelling suspicious pages (on all problematic wiktionaries), but I lack resources to create it myself. As for the "PV" dictionary (specific to -eo- wiktionary), the problem is to get plain text. So far I have seen only a bloated pseudo-PDF serving as container for raster images, not readable by any bot. Note that almost same issue was discussed 2+1/2 years ago (Requests for comment/Administrator abuse on the EO Wiktionary) with very little interest from the community and no result. Taylor 49 (talk) 17:16, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Taylor for all the effort you already have put on this issue.
If that prove the only practical way to deal with this issue, I won't be against a "let's reset it to blank slate", like Wikiquote went through at some point. But if that can be avoided, it would certainly be better. I see that Jimbo_Wales indeed never replied to your post. So we should possibly look at some of these numerous international committee we have by now, surely there is one which include to deal with that kind of situation in it's description.
Regarding PV, we might try to pass it through some OCR. Actually, publishing it on Wikisource should be a good action to perform per se anyway.
Can you make a quick feedback on the state of the art: is Pablo still admin on the wiki?
Also as a side note, I wouldn't use "punishment" for any legitimate action in our community: I don't adhere with this kind of "teaching by hurting" philosophy. Some actions might hurt some people, but to my mind it should never be a voluntary specific aim, just a regrettable side effect of not being able to deal with the situation in a more staid way. Psychoslave (talk) 18:03, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
Yes, technically Pablo is still and permanently sysop, whereas my sysop right is limited to one year. If the wiki is to be nuked, then I would like to know it in advance in order to save my work put into it. Taylor 49 (talk) 18:28, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
To be clear, nuke the wiki is for a solution I would favor. I'm sure there is also plenty of legitimate content available mixed in the wiki, isn't it? We still have large room to find other less extreme solutions. So anyway it won't be something that should be call to put in action tomorrow, or in the coming weeks. Psychoslave (talk) 18:40, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
Do we know if Pablo Escobar speaks English?
Pablo, ĉi tiu paĝo parolas pri vi kaj viaj agoj en la vikivortaro rilate al respekto de kopirajto. Ĉu vi interesas partopreni en la diskuto? Se jes, ĉu vi bezonas helpon por la traduko? Psychoslave (talk) 18:54, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
@Taylor 49 can you provide us a link to the PDF or upload it to Commons so we can start the Wikisource transcription? Psychoslave (talk) 15:39, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
PV can be downloaded here: " https://app.box.com/v/PlenaVortaro ". The file contains not only the original main part from 1930, but also the supplement from 1954. I do not know whether the supplement is public domain too. Taylor 49 (talk) 17:10, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for this very informative feedback. Gaston Waringhien wrote the supplement, from what I read in the book, and he died in 1991. More importantly, he wrote the initial PV, from what I understand. So I am rather surprised that any part of the PV might be in public domain. Psychoslave (talk) 18:41, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
Now, reading eo:Plena Vortaro it seems that Émile Boirac wrote the original edition, not Gaston. There seems to be some attribution confusion going on. Psychoslave (talk) 18:45, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
The PDF file mentions 4 authors of the core part on page 3, and G.W. is one of them (not the boss). On page 3 and page 511 G.W. is claimed to be the only author of the supplement, and the year is 1953. Maybe we should contact SAT and ask. Taylor 49 (talk) 22:04, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
Do you have a contact entry? Psychoslave (talk) 21:49, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
Hi. If the same rules as for the French Wikisource are applied, we need to wait 70 years after the death of the last author. So if it’s G. W., we need to wait 2062. I think it’s better not to expect something from this. I’m not admin anymore, so I suppose that Taylor is left alone with Pablo. But I know that Pablo is not really cooperative.
I think our two big problems are the massive copyright infringement and the lack of a community. I don’t know a way to identify which pages are not good, so I think the best solution is nuking them all. At least, it would let us to start on a blank page. Whatever the choice will be, if we want to become one of the reference dictionary in esperanto, we have a lot of work. Lepticed7 (talk) 21:02, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
https://satesperanto.org/ scroll down for contact information. Taylor 49 (talk) 22:16, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

If you think that the problems are so bad that the project should be closed/restarted, PCP is an option. Just throwing it out as a suggestion. --Rschen7754 00:13, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Por la demando rekte ligita al tiu ĉi diskuto estas kreita RfC: (translate) https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/I_need_to_solve_the_problem_that_I_consider_important_in_the_eo.wiktionary.org_project Va (🖋️) 12:50, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Voorstel om gebruiker "Pablo Escobar" het recht beheerder op eo wiktionary te ontnemen

Latest comment: 4 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion

@User:Lepticed7 @User:Kotavusik @User:KuboF Hromoslav @User:Psychoslave @User:Robin van der Vliet: Een week geleden werd ik geblokkeerd op eo wiktionary door gebruiker "Pablo Escobar" met de volgende reden:

Forviŝas entenon el paĝoj: Mi rezigne lasis vin detrui chion ajn lastatempe sed nun mi scias, ke estas eblo vin senadministrantigi kaj forigi. Kiel esperantisto, mi esperos. Nun ankau Vami provas halti vian redaktadachon kaj detruemon.
Verwijdert inhoud van pagina's: Terugtrekken. Ik heb je de laatste tijd alles laten verwijderen, maar nu weet ik dat er een mogelijkheid is om jouw recht als beheerder in te trekken en je te vernietigen. Als esperantist, hoop ik. Nu probeert Vami ook je slechte bewerkingen en obsessie te stoppen door het te vernietigen.

De echte reden voor het blokkeren is om te voorkomen dat ik verder met het verwijderen van piraterij die deze Pablo introduceerde in een groot "project" tussen 2010 en 2020. De opzettelijke inbreuk op grote schaal op het auteursrecht is al op zich een ernstig misdrijf, het blokkeren van anderen om iemands "creatie" te "beschermen" is nog dommer en kwaadwilliger.

Pablo werd in 2010 benoemd als een permanente sysop met slechts 2 stemmen, absurd nadat hij permanent was verbannen uit de Spaanse wiktionary en de Duitse wiktionary. Een gebruiker heeft in de "commentaar" sectie kritiek uitgesproken en klaagde over "vernietiging" (vergeleken met de latere beschuldigingen van Pablo tegen mij), maar weigerde een NEE-stem te geven. Een lokale bureaucraat gaf Pablo permanente beheerdersrechten en stapte zelf kort daarna op. Achteraf moet dit worden beschouwd als een blunder die nu, 11 jaar later, moet worden hersteld.

Ik "verwijder inderdaad inhoud van pagina's", dat doe ik in de volgende gevallen:

  • gebrek aan inhoud, alleen lege sjabloon-aanroepen (naar het schijnt werd Pablo verbannen uit de Spaanse wiktionary alleen voor deze methode van "bewerken"), vaak "ondersteund" door valse verwijzingen en valse interwiki-links (doel geeft "404", "niet gevonden" of vergelijkbaar)
  • lange teksten in het Duits geschreven gevonden in Esperanto wiktionary (geen andere wiktionary zou grootschalige invoering van tekst in een vreemde taal tolereren buiten voorbeelden in die taal)
  • vertalingen voor niet-Esperanto-woorden (vervolgschade door het kopiëren van hele pagina's uit andere wiktionaries, geen ander wiktionary doet dit, en er is een recente lokale consensus om geen vertalingen voor geen-Esperano-woorden te hebben)
  • PIRACY, ook wel inbreuk op auteursrecht genoemd

Al mijn "vernietigingen" zijn gezond verstand, wiki regels & TOS en consensus. Pablo heeft het mis en misbruikt de macht van een beheerder.

Pablo heeft niet alleen het vermogen zich op een aanvaardbare manier te gedragen, het vermogen om Duits van Esperanto te onderscheiden, het vermogen om te onderscheiden tussen het maken van inhoud en piraterij, het vermogen om te onderscheiden tussen nuttige inhoud en lege dingen, maar ook technische vaardigheden. Een paar voorbeelden van slechte bewerkingen tussen 2010 en 2020:

  • Pablo veranderde de inhoud van het sjabloon "be" (voormalig sjabloon voor taalcode) van "belorusa" naar "[[blankrusa]]". Het is een van de veranderingen, een absurd purisme, het is het toevoegen van rechte haakjes. Helaas was de voormalige sjabloon "t" niet in staat om de rechte haakjes te waarderen. Het resultaat was dat alle vertalingen in het Wit-Russisch gedurende enkele jaren werden gebroken. Het probleem is nu opgelost. Ik heb een centrale tabel met talen gemaakt, de sjabloon "t" opnieuw gemaakt en aan die tabel gekoppeld. Ik heb het gebroken sjabloon "be" en een gebroken duplicaat sjabloon "by" met hetzelfde doel ontmanteld en verwijderd.
  • Meerdere keren verplaatste Pablo sjabloon A naar sjabloon B (met of zonder doorverwijzing, willekeurig gekozen), en hergebruikte vervolgens sjabloon A voor een ander doel, dat volgens Pablo een "sterker recht" had op de naam A, door deze opnieuw te maken of de doorverwijzing te bewerken. Het resultaat was dat meerdere 1000-pagina's sjabloon A nog steeds transcludeerden, in de verwachting dat het werk A zou doen, maar het sjabloon deed in plaats daarvan werk C. Pablo brak op deze manier duizend pagina's. Dit zou ten minste resulteren op elke gewone wiki tot gevolg hebben dat de beheerder dat recht verliest.
  • Door slechte en puristische bewerking brak Pablo tussen 2010 en 2020 veel sjablonen. De meeste zijn door mij sindsdien of gerepareerd, vervangen of verwijderd. Een van de vele voorbeelden (resulterende schade - de intacte boxen zijn te wijten aan mijn reparatiewerk, vóór 2019 waren ze allemaal kapot). Dit zou op alle gewone wiki's toch moeten leiden tot het ontnemen van het beheerderschap.
  • Pablo "maakte" (door piraterij van elders) vele voorbeelden van hetzelfde sjabloon die niet te vinden zijn vanwege gebrek aan een categoriestructuur (dit lijkt nu voornamelijk opgelost te zijn, en opnieuw was het ik ... sorry).
  • De meeste pagina's, zowel lemma-artikelen als sjablonen die door Pablo zijn gemaakt, waren onmogelijk te vinden, geplaatst in onzichtbare omgeleide categorieën of op een andere manier buiten de categorieën, vanwege het gebrek van Pablo aan substandaarding van hoe wiki-categorisatie werkt, en willekeurige incompetente en puristische veranderingen. Veel pagina's die Pablo heeft gemaakt, hadden geen taal of woordklasse gedefinieerd, waardoor ze niet in categorieën werden geplaatst (dit lijkt nu grotendeels opgelost te zijn, en het was weer de grote schurk Taylor ... sorry).

Maar het ergste met Pablo is fanatieke piraterij, ook wel kopieerrecht. Bijna alles wat Pablo tussen 2010 en 2020 heeft ingediend, is ergens anders van gekopieerd met weinig tot geen verandering. De aangetaste bronnen zijn:

  • PIV "vortaro.net" (zonder toeschrijving, PIV is auteursrechtelijk beschermd werk)
  • ReVo (zonder toeschrijven is de licentie van ReVo GPL, weliswaar vrij, maar waarschijnlijk niet goed genoeg om het massale kopiëren in een publieke wiki te laten plaatsvinden)
  • Duitse Wiktionary (zonder toeschrijving)
  • andere Wiktionary (zonder toeschrijving)
  • Spaans woordenboek (waarschijnlijk auteursrechtelijk beschermd)

Door bewust en massaal juridisch onbereikbare inhoud in te dienen, veroorzaakte Pablo schade aan andere gebruikers, de Esperanto-wiktionary, WMF en de taal Esperanto zelf.

Bewijs van massale piraterij en erge technische incompetentie:

Een andere slechte gewoonte van Pablo is het tegengaan van gemeenschapsconsensus zoals hier en hier.

Pablo kopieerde lemma-artikelen, sjablonen en modules (met precies nul begrip van hoe ze werken), en zelfs "helppagina's" uit de Duitse wiktionary (absurd een plaats waar Pablo verbannen was). Ik vermoed dat het onderliggende principe van Pablo is: "Als ik de mensen bij de Duitse Wiktionary niet kan krijgen mijn regels te volgen, kopieer ik de volledige Duitse Wiktionary in de Esperanto Wiktionary waar ik de enige keizer ben, en waar mijn regels uiteindelijk worden gevolgd". Hulppagina's in het Duits geschreven in de Esperanto-wiktionary zijn nutteloos, dus JA, ik heb ze verwijderd, en NEE, ik voel me niet beschaamd dat ik dat heb gedaan. Als Pablo zich op die manier gedroeg ("helppagina's" in een vreemde taal) in een gewone wiki, zou dit resulteren in een verwijdering bij de eerste overtreding, verwijdering plus waarschuwing bij de tweede overtreding. Verwijdering plus korte blokkade bij de derde overtreding, en verwijdering plus lange blokkade bij de vierde overtreding.

Pablo's gedrag laat zien dat Pablo het basisprincipe van een wiki niet begrijpt: geleidelijke samenwerking om vrije waardevolle inhoud te creëren. De laatste blokkade van mij laat zien dat Pablo nog steeds weigert te leren van fouten, en dit na ongeveer 14 jaar carrière op verschillende wiki-projecten. In het licht van de hierboven beschreven feiten is het duidelijk dat "Pablo Escobar" het recht beheerder niet verdiend.

Stemmen (GESLOTEN, maar voel u vrij om hieronder te reageren)

  • Support Support As the proposer. Taylor 49 (talk) 10:15, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Support I also think that it is not OK that Pablo is administrator of the Esperanto Wiktionary. Firstly, other administrators should repost a candidature every 6 months. Secondly, Pablo imported without respecting licenses. That is not ok for a contributor, even less for an administrator. I fully support this request. Lepticed7 (talk) 10:44, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Support Enough have been said. Pablo need a deep change of behavior to bring any positive contribution to our community. Letting this can of behavior being performed is detrimental to all. --Psychoslave (talk) 08:25, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Comments

Result

Afgerond per this discussion. Pablo is desysopped. A large part of the pirated content is left. Taylor 49 (talk) 20:03, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @Taylor 49. This will possibly a long road for us with the few human resources we have to achieve a sane state regarding copyright, but at least now the path is no longer paved with the severe hindrance of an improper behavior at adminstration level. Psychoslave (talk) 08:28, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Update

I updated the above text a bit. The vote is closed anyway. Taylor 49 (talk) 05:32, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Crucial discussion (later vote) at eo wikt

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

@ User:Psychoslave, User:Lepticed7, User:Robin van der Vliet Arrival of a new user at eo wikt and subsequent strange events resulted in the deletion work stopped. As people continue failing to understand the WMF TOS or to consider it as relevant for eo wiki, I created a proposal for a local policy. If the piracy and harassment cannot be resolved I probably will request a deletion (Proposals for closing projects). Taylor 49 (talk) 00:05, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Is it a lie or not yet? (later vote somewhere)

Latest comment: 4 years ago13 comments4 people in discussion

If anybody tell only half of the truth - is it a lie or not yet? (translate)

@Psychoslave, Lepticed7, and Robin van der Vliet:

User:Taylor_49 reported that he banned user Pablo (translate) - https://eo.wiktionary.org/wiki/Speciala%C4%B5o:Protokolo?type=block&user=Pablo+Escobar But that's only half the truth because (translate)

Thus, User:Taylor_49 initiated a ban war. And this is not the first time - User:Taylor_49 has been the initiator of previous ban wars. Hence it is "half the truth". Who doubts - review the protocols and compare the dates of the events. (translate)

Further, User:Taylor_49 wrote that Pablo's desysop is complete. And gives the link (translate) - https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=22333253#eo.wiktionary Have any of you who voted read this thread? If you have not read it, then I inform you that (translate)

  • User:Taylor_49 had no part in this decision (translate)
  • this decision is not about Pablo's desysop, but about the complete transfer of management in the project to Meta (translate)
  • the reason for the termination of local administration in the project is another ban war started by User:Taylor_49. (translate)

This is also "half the truth" as reported by User:Taylor_49. Who doubts - review the protocols and compare the dates of the events. (translate)

For some reason, User:Taylor_49 forgot to inform you that all local discussions are now just a discussion, and the decision on each issue will be made by the leadership of a higher level, on Meta. (translate)

Personally, it also seems strange to me that all who voted are the people to whom I sent personal messages of invitation to get acquainted with the RfC about a possible violation of technical regulations (which has already been repeatedly confirmed by the administrations) and about the necessary exact definitions of terms, conditions and procedures. Without precise definitions, all words about "pirataĵo" is just speculation. (translate)

Nobody expressed their opinion in the RfC about the violations. Should I understand that all participants in the useless #Vote support the destruction of the project, both in parts (translate) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and completely, as described in the paragraph "Crucial discussion (later vote) at eo wikt"? (translate)

Va (🖋️) 16:30, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I must say that I am not interested anymore in the Esperanto Wiktionary: the continuous battles are tiring. I think that neither Taylor nor Pablo deserve to be administrator on the project. I think that before allowing contributions on the Wiktionary, we should think about the project: establish rules, guidelines, examples, etc. Maybe it is a good idea to send the Wiktionary back to Incubator? And maybe we need to nuke the project? If you wish to go this way, do not hesitate to ping. Otherwise, please do not. I am currently really busy on the Esperanto Wikisource. Cheers, Lepticed7 (talk) 23:33, 22 November 2021 (UTC) (translate)
I suspect that neither nuke nor incubator will help solve the problem of continuous battles. Not much time has passed since I decided to participate in the project. But in the first month of my participation, so many obstacles were created for me, and I saw so many problematic actions that I had to open an RFC. (translate)
Ok, I will not ping you for any question as you are busy. Cheers, Va (🖋️) 10:37, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
@User:Vami Vami, please stop immediately both lying and claiming wrong sex about me ("Taylor_49 reported that he banned" "Thus, User:Taylor_49 initiated a ban war"). I will request deletion of the wiki now. It's enough, really. Taylor 49 (talk) 19:30, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
In half of the cases, this is the result of the work of automatic translators - You can write a complaint to Google or Yandex. On the second half of the cases - I have already answered you on this question several times (translate) - here and here. You answered me with the phrase "f ** k off" in this edition .
If you do not always read the answers, then I will repeat. As a "user", "person", "account or bot owner", etc., it does not matter who you are or how you identify yourself, but all these concepts are defined by the pronoun he. Your gender issues do not interest me and do not bother me. (translate) Va (🖋️) 04:50, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
The fact that you use a translator doesn’t justify misgendering people. The first time, it can be a mistake. After being told about it, it’s an intentional harmful behaviour. Please respect the pronouns of everyone. It doesn’t help at all to calm down the discussions. I understand why Taylor reacted this way and I support them. Lepticed7 (talk) 07:45, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Well, let the User:Taylor 49 write on his page a complete list of pronouns in Esperanto and English, Spanish, French and Russian that the User:Taylor 49 would like to apply to himself. I will check if other personal pronouns appear in the received texts after automatic translation. (translate)
However, problems with "respecting pronouns" have nothing to do with copyright problems. Are you sure you need to discuss them here? (translate)
BTW, what gender is "user" according to the official English grammar? Va (🖋️) 11:05, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
It surely has to do with the copyright problems. We cannot discuss about the problems if you’re disrespecting the people on the other side. I’m a 100% sure that we need to discuss this. If you don’t respect the people you’re talking with, how can you expect something else that an invitation to "fuck off"? Anyway, English has no grammatical genders, so your question is a non-sense. But I think I know what you meant. If you want to know what pronoun you should use, don’t look at the work "user". It would have no sense to call "he" a woman, even though she is a user. I don’t know if there grammatical genders in your language (Russian if I understood well), but for exemple, in French, we have a word for "user" that depends on the gender of the person. "Utilisateur" for a man, "Utilisatrice" for a women and (but it is a neologism) "Utilisataire" for genderless or non-binary people. Taylor doesn’t have to give a list in all the languages. (By the way, it is not "himself", but "themself".) I really think that this point need to be ok before we continue to discuss. Lepticed7 (talk) 11:56, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Should i understand your statements that the "f**k off" used by User:Taylor 49 is a good answer, and that what i just copied from the automatic translator is a terrible insult? Should i understand that i have to learn English in order to control what the automatic translator suggested there?
From your "it is not "himself", but "themself"" - "это не "он сам", а "они сами"", "no es "él mismo", sino "ellas mismas"", "ce n'est pas "lui-même", mais "eux-mêmes"", "není to "on sám", ale "oni sami"" - it follows that there are some special people who always need to be called only in the plural. I doubt User:Taylor 49 is any special. And User:Taylor 49 himself has never reached out to other users in this way. I see no reason to do otherwise than User:Taylor 49 do. Va (🖋️) 12:46, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
It’s not about the plurality of people, but their gender. If the person is a man, we use "he", if the person is a woman, it’s "she". If we don’t know or the person is genderless or non-binary, it’s "they". You can look at the definitions c and d of the Merriam Webster. And you should know that automatic translators are not perfect. By the way, I suggest you to use DeepL, which is way more efficient than Google Translate. Lepticed7 (talk) 12:54, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Are you telling me about everything that has been invented over the past 10 years? Maybe in 50-100 years these innovations will become the norm, but now I just don't understand you. (translate)
A user is not a gender, but a position, or a function, or a set of rights and responsibilities. This word obeys only the grammatical norms of the language in which it is used. If there is a special pronoun in Swedish for these cases, then in Swedish it is used. But using a grammatically reasonable pronoun for some kind of newly invented non-binary genders is also not correct, because it violates the grammar and semantics of languages. (translate)
And to publicly show everyone your gender-specific body parts, whether binary or not-binary, is just indecent behavior. And in some states it is generally a crime described in the criminal codes as exhibitionism. (translate)
About DeepL - for the first time i hear. I will try it in my free time. But the first impression is that this is a new project that lags behind Google translator by 15 years, and from Yandex translator by 10 years. In terms of the number of languages offered, this is more like a graduation thesis project of a group of five students at some university. Completely useless to me in its current state. (translate)
But all this talk again has nothing to do with copyright. Moreover - you know my contact in the Telegram, if you just want to talk, it is better there, not here. Va (🖋️) 13:33, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Ok, so I red the thread, I will simply join @Lepticed7 on the "I currently don't have time to dig into continuous war ban details". If the project is to be reset, it should be clear that we also should previously plane at least one admin, excluding anyone which had previously given this role when the project was conducted in such an extremity. Psychoslave (talk) 21:13, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
Anything you say can be used against you... as a result, your answer "Yes, I currently don't have time to dig" is now used as evidence of massive approval for the closure of the eo.wiktionary project - suggestion.
Ok, your position has become clear. Thanks, Va (🖋️) 05:10, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Voetnoten en referenties

More notes and references

Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

It seems that it would be useful to slightly adjust the definitions. (translate) Regarding the language Esperanto itself and about Zamenhof's work. There are at least two documents: (translate)

which commonly serve as a license for materials related to the language. (translate)

In relation to Wikimedia works (translate)

Each state has its own copyright laws. And they differ, something forbidden in one state may be allowed in another. Therefore, for each particular object whose authorial restrictions are considered, it is necessary to mention the state to which the author belongs and where the object was published. (translate) However, we can compare the laws of various states. For example, the period when copyright is limited (translate) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries%27_copyright_lengths

The Wikimedia project with all parts operates under US law. (translate)

The PIV dictionary in PIV2002 edition (ISBN:2950243258) exists under the laws of France. This only applies to parts that do not belong to other editions (translate) - https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plena_Ilustrita_Vortaro_de_Esperanto

For reference, under the general name "Complete Dictionary" (complete illustrated dictionary, new complete illustrated dictionary, etc.) PV, PIV, PIVS, NPIV are meant: (translate)

  • "Plena Vortaro Esperanto-Esperanta kaj Esperanto-Franca", aŭt. Boirac, Émile, eld. Hachette, Paris kaj Darantière, Dijon, 1909-1911 (3 v.)
  • "Plena vortaro de esperanto", aŭt. E. Grosjean-Maupin kaj aliaj, eld. Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, Paris, 1930 (517 p.)
  • "Plena vortaro de esperanto", aŭt. E. Grosjean-Maupin kaj aliaj, eld. Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, Paris, 1934 (512 p.)
  • "Plena Vortaro De Esperanto" (Kvina Eldono), eld. Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, 1956
  • "Plena vortaro de esperanto", aŭt. E. Grosjean-Maupin kaj aliaj, eld. Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, Paris, 1960 (511+63 p.)
  • "Plena vortaro de esperanto kun suplemento", eld. Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, 1964 (511 + 63 p.)
  • "Plena vortaro de esperanto kun suplemento", eld. Esperanto League for North Amer, 1980, ISBN-10:0685716058/ISBN-13:978-0685716052
  • "Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto", eld. Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, 1970, Paris (1299 p.) Google books
  • "Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto" (Dua eldono), eld. Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, 1977 (1303 p.) Google books
  • "Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto", eld. French & European Pubns, 1981 (1303 p.), ISBN-10:082884674X/ISBN-13:978-0828846745, Google books
  • "Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto kun Suplemento", Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, 1987, Paris (1350 p.), ISBN-10:2950243215/ISBN-13:978-2950243218, Google books
  • "La Nova Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto"/PIV2/PIV2002, eld. Sennacieca asocio tutmonda, 2002 (1265 p.), ISBN-10:2950243258/ISBN-13:978-2950243256, Google books
  • "Plena ilustrita vortaro de esperanto 2005"/PIV2005, Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, 2005 (1265 p.), ISBN-10:2950243282/ISBN-13:978-2950243287, Google books
  • "Plena ilustrita vortaro de Esperanto 2020", Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, 2020, Paris (1267 p.), ISBN-10:2952892237/ISBN-13:978-2952892230, Google books

Va (🖋️) 16:51, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

The list above is inherently useless. User "Vami" previously had posted this on at least 4 other places. Taylor 49 (talk) 19:30, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
This means that everyone who wanted to get acquainted with the history of inheritance, and therefore, with the definition of unique non-inherited parts (which falls under the license restrictions). In all 4 locations.
Facts are just facts, they exist independently of anyone's opinion of uselessness. Va (🖋️) 10:24, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Nuke all pages created by "Pablo Escobar"

Latest comment: 4 years ago17 comments3 people in discussion

On top of the description given by Taylor 49 which is very concerning, was thinking of nuking all pages created by this user. Given that a), they haven't even bothered to comment in this thread in the first place when they were the one who added copyvios thruout eo.wikt b) abused their sysop tools, and c) adding content in a completely different language. It seems that the idea of reseting eo.wikt was rejected by LangCom, so it seems this seems the only way to go forward, which "hopefully" reduces the amount of copyvios on eo.wikt.

And when I mean "nuke", I mean all mainspace pages, projectspace pages, or really, all pages except talk pages + their userpage. I'd also propose an indef ban on Pablo Escobar as for breaking the law + the ToS. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 11:28, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I think it is a big problem to assert without proof that someone has committed "breaking the law". (translate) I have already cited Shakespeare's case as an example. After destroying articles like Ŝekspiro or Antverpeno, should we now to nuke the French and English wiktionaries too? It all looks very strange to me. And without the answers of a professional lawyer who knows at least the laws of France (since we are talking about a specific reprint of a certain cited book in Paris, France), all such conversations are unsubstantiated. (translate)
It should also be borne in mind that we are talking about a reprint of a book, that is, as a reprint, it inherits a large amount of material that is already in the public domain. I have already given the history of PIV here. This does not even take into account the fact that the definitions of words make up no more than 9% -12% of the total volume of the text, and the rest of the volume is made up of quotations given as examples - all these quotations are taken from the public domain. (translate)
And any talk about the impossibility of translating or citing materials from other subprojects within Wikimedia is already a direct violation of the license of Wikimedia itself. (translate)
It should also be noted that "all pages created by this user" have not remained in their original state at the moment, even if at the time of creation they could have been claimed. Deleting articles that have long been changed (moreover, because of development, and not because there were any claims to them) will already be the destruction of the work of other people.

That is, the question is not so simple that it can be solved by simply deleting something. (translate) Va (🖋️) 19:02, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Your claims related to "Ŝekspiro" have been debunked long ago, and I have better things to do than answering to your repetitive denial all the time. The page "Ŝekspiro" was provably copied from PIV, and that's why I deleted it. We do NOT need a "professional lawyer who knows at least the laws of France", and we do NOT have to nuke French and English wiktionaries. Taylor 49 (talk) 20:43, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
Dear Taylor, I am here to hear from everyone with experience and knowledge. And your attempt to prove your own statements on the basis of... what you yourself wrote sometime before is "idem per idem".
Let other people speak up. Va (🖋️) 14:46, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
The difference between en/fr and eo, is that one [eo] was copied off elsewhere, making it a copyvio, while the other [en/fr] was not copied off somewhere and therefore as Taylor 49 mentioned, it does not need to be nuked. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 09:05, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000:: For reference, under the general name "Complete Dictionary" (complete illustrated dictionary, new complete illustrated dictionary, etc.) PV, PIV, PIVS, NPIV are meant: (translate)
  • "Plena Vortaro Esperanto-Esperanta kaj Esperanto-Franca", aŭt. Boirac, Émile, eld. Hachette, Paris kaj Darantière, Dijon, 1909-1911 (3 v.)
  • "Plena vortaro de esperanto", aŭt. E. Grosjean-Maupin kaj aliaj, eld. Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, Paris, 1930 (517 p.)
  • "Plena vortaro de esperanto", aŭt. E. Grosjean-Maupin kaj aliaj, eld. Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, Paris, 1934 (512 p.)
  • "Plena Vortaro De Esperanto" (Kvina Eldono), eld. Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, 1956
  • "Plena vortaro de esperanto", aŭt. E. Grosjean-Maupin kaj aliaj, eld. Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, Paris, 1960 (511+63 p.)
  • "Plena vortaro de esperanto kun suplemento", eld. Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, 1964 (511 + 63 p.)
  • "Plena vortaro de esperanto kun suplemento", eld. Esperanto League for North Amer, 1980, ISBN-10:0685716058/ISBN-13:978-0685716052
  • "Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto", eld. Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, 1970, Paris (1299 p.) Google books
  • "Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto" (Dua eldono), eld. Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, 1977 (1303 p.) Google books
  • "Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto", eld. French & European Pubns, 1981 (1303 p.), ISBN-10:082884674X/ISBN-13:978-0828846745, Google books
  • "Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto kun Suplemento", Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, 1987, Paris (1350 p.), ISBN-10:2950243215/ISBN-13:978-2950243218, Google books
  • "La Nova Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto"/PIV2/PIV2002, eld. Sennacieca asocio tutmonda, 2002 (1265 p.), ISBN-10:2950243258/ISBN-13:978-2950243256, Google books
  • "Plena ilustrita vortaro de esperanto 2005"/PIV2005, Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, 2005 (1265 p.), ISBN-10:2950243282/ISBN-13:978-2950243287, Google books
  • "Plena ilustrita vortaro de Esperanto 2020", Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda, 2020, Paris (1267 p.), ISBN-10:2952892237/ISBN-13:978-2952892230, Google books
And the person, whose surname gave us the word and many more words obtained through word formation, lived not even 100 years ago, but much earlier. I can boldly assert, and if necessary, then documentarily confirm that the source about which the copivio is claimed to have made the copivio himself from earlier works, and it is even possible that the definition has been copied since the very first edition from 1909. Just because Shakespeare is well-known and even in 1909 it was no longer news ... The obvious definition for the word Shakespeare is public property, the establishment of any copyright and prohibitions to write on such a definition is obvious - this is a violation of copyright, rights to public domain. (translate)
In addition, you do not take into account that instead of removing only the definition, only about which we can conduct a discussion, all information was destroyed, that is, the page that contained other sections. And in the list of destroyed articles, I found example pages that contained several articles about words with identical spellings from other languages. That is, several articles were destroyed at the same time, which did not have a direct bearing on the issue at all. (translate)
I already suggested - let's restore some of the deleted articles and calmly and legally analyze them as examples, finding out what sources refer to and what has long been public property, and what can really cause copyright infringement. (translate)
Forgive me, but I will fight for the preservation of public property from those encroaching on the appropriation of public property. As far as I understand, the goals of the entire Wikimedia project (or GPL, or others) are precisely the protection of public property. In this sense, I fully support both the project's license and the terms of use. I am just fighting a violation of these two documents. Am I wrong about something? (translate)
PS: this is an automatically translated text - I am not responsible for the inconsistency of pronouns used by the automatic system. But I can apologize in advance for the automatic system if it was wrong somewhere.
. Va (🖋️) 14:35, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
I don't understand why you're hestitating to think copyvios are against the law. In Simple English
copyvios = copyright violation
copyright violation = taking someone else's work and claiming it as your own
taking someone else's work and claiming it as your own = stealing
stealing = breaking the law
It's different on Commons where there's cases of Freedom of Panorama or Threshold of Originality. However, this is neither of that. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 10:54, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Kindly give a concession: I'm not "hestitating to think", but "the automatic translation system is not always accurate." I do not speak all the versions of Englishs that you use and cannot keep track of all the nuances. But at the same time I try to understand you and try to express my thoughts in different ways so that you can understand me even with the limitations of translation systems.
So copivio = violation, without considering all other adjectives. If there is at least some state law that describes this violation, then we are talking about "against the law", in any other case we can only talk about etiquette. There is a principle: everything that is not prohibited is allowed.
As soon as we start talking about state laws and violations, we immediately have the concept of proof. Any statement about copyvio without proof already automatically becomes another type of crime - false accusation, defamation etc. Therefore, we must be very careful in such statements. A death sentence on the basis of a false accusation is already murder. A careless statement can cost a lot of money - https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB858891007123079000
Your evidence "In Simple English" is just an example by which you will lose in court right away. And here there is a principle: the presumption of innocence.
Quote = copy, but not copyvio
Public property = allows copy that won't copyvio
And there is a very important point. Suppose "A" is public intellectual property. Then "A" can be used freely for any purpose, including use in commercial and copyrighted intellectual product "B". By your reasoning, after the publication of "B"... "A" ceases to be public property, because your statement - the use of "A" will be copivio relative to "B". Stealing.
Only there is a problem. Stealing in this case is not the use of "A", but restrictions on "A" from the side of "B".
I hope the automatic translation will cope with these simple statements. Aŭ mi povas esprimi tion en vere logika, simpla kaj internacia lingvo, kreita same por tiuj celoj. (translate) If I do not understand something - try to express it in other words or consult a lawyer which expressions are correct.
. Va (🖋️) 12:35, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
@User:Vami: You posted the same irrelevant list again (see ca 2 screens above, the very same list), and you posted it previosuly on several places on eowikt too, ie you are spamming in order to ilustrate your (incomprehensible) point. Nobody will consult a lawyer for your sake. The "wsj.com" article is inaccessible. And please stop making legal threats. Taylor 49 (talk) 18:03, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Tell me, dear Taylor, what rules did I break when I re-quoted the text? Please provide a link.
And the reason for the repetition is simply my concern about your fate. I am ready to repeat the quotation until you understand that the charge of breaking the law, where only your opinion is given instead of proof, is a separate crime - a false accusation or defamation. We can discuss other topics, but your crimes can definitely bring you to justice. And it's not just about your actions in this project. If you think and act the same way in your real life, then you may be sued for reasons unrelated to Wikimedia.
I'm not an expert, but there are some examples you should pay attention to w:en:United_States_defamation_law. This point saves you the trouble here - "Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act of 1996 generally immunizes from liability parties that create forums on the Internet in which defamation occurs from liability for statements published by third parties. This has the effect of precluding all liability for statements made by persons on the Internet whose identity cannot be determined." But not all of your life happens here. My repetitions are a cheap price to keep you from getting in big trouble in life, right?
And I personally do not want to be an accomplice in your crimes, "who by his action or inaction (indifferent observation) contributed to your actions." Inaction the laws of different countries are interpreted in different ways. In my legal field, inaction is considered a crime too, so I just follow the laws.
. Va (🖋️) 19:06, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
By re-quoting you did not break any law, you just act against common sense. And "your crimes can definitely bring you to justice" is both a false accusation and a legal threat. Taylor 49 (talk) 19:15, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Section 230 ... you missed something, right? It is impossible to bring you, Anonymous, to any responsibility, so you again substitute “my concern” for “false accusation”. But the fact that you are constantly engaged in substitutions is a reality. Moreover, this fact is confirmed by the protocols. When will you recover your fakes of my private messages? Va (🖋️) 20:02, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
"impossible to bring you, Anonymous, to any responsibility" legal threat. Taylor 49 (talk) 20:15, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
"...article made false statements... The jury set $200 million in punitive damages and $22.7 million in compensation..." - here is an article on the same topic, but at a different agency - https://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/21/business/firm-awarded-222.7-million-in-a-libel-suit-vs-dow-jones.html
This is the second line in the article title search. If you don't know how to read the article... Va (🖋️) 20:46, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
NOT interested in your $200 million in punitive damages. Taylor 49 (talk) 23:40, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
This is your natural right. You have the right not to be interested in anything. Va (🖋️) 04:14, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
 Perhaps it's worth noting the reason I dropped out of this thread is because I was tired of hearing things similar to "a source is needed to prove the copyvio", especially when @Taylor 49: has already explained it multiple times. A copyvio = legal issue. Full stop. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 01:07, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Thoughts from Rschen7754

Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I have shared some thoughts on this situation at Requests for comment/I need to solve the problem that I consider important in the eo.wiktionary.org project#Thoughts from Rschen7754. --Rschen7754 23:57, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

@User:Rschen7754 Thanks for your thoughts. What I miss however are ideas about what should be done in order to get rid of the piracy (on this wiki and on other affected wikis), rather than arguments against nuking and other imaginable full or partial solutions. And again, a wiki where over 90% of content is pirated is no longer a "usual wiki", and a user inserting during 10 years stuff that is pirated to over 99% is not an "ordinaty user" anymore. Taylor 49 (talk) 11:28, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
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