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Requests for comment/Restrict non-confirmed users of all wikis from crosswiki-uploading files to Commons

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In response to the study on crosswiki uploads conducted by the WMF (document, discussion), the Commons community agreed to disallow (or prevent) non-(auto)confirmed users from transferring local uploads into Commons (discussion).

I soon then created a Phabricator task (phab:T370598), which is still ongoing. After insufficient or lack of progress, I even proposed a Community Wish, which the WMF then rejected or "archived" or whatever you call it (subpage).

The following communities subject to the WMF study release approved restricting local wiki users from transferring uploads (via crosswiki tools especially) into Commons: enwiki, arwiki.

I don't feel like re-proposing this in every other wiki, especially after trying at dewiki. Here I am re-proposing what's already agreed/approved by the Commons community. George Ho (talk) 20:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

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  1. * Pppery * it has begun 22:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Ahri Boy (talk) 23:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Yann (talk) 10:12, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  4. This needs to be done, and would help stop a lot of spam. signed, Aafi (talk) 06:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  5. I agree with Aafi that this is necessary. Abzeronow (talk) 20:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Leaderboard (talk) 15:38, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  7. CMD (talk) 07:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  8. --Takipoint123 (talk) 09:09, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Phương Linh (thảo luận) 13:49, 14 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  10. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:55, 2 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  11. 〈興華街〉📅❓ 02:56, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Support Support title of this RfC, where crosswiki uploading refers to mw:Upload dialog, until that dialog can be drastically improved.--Commander Keane (talk) 00:59, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Support Support Jianhui67 talk★contribs 09:02, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

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Neutral or other

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General discussion

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  • Are the enwiki and arwiki configuration changes in place already? If yes, did it bring any observable positive effect (and perhaps, some negative effect as well)? If not, why not? It seems sensible to start from the 2 wikis first, wait for a while, and check some initial results. --whym (talk) 13:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Why don't you visit either community and ask then? You've been obviously concerned about restricting users from doing things, haven't you? George Ho (talk) 05:47, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Has someone wrote a patch for this already? Or is this just a plea to get someone else to do that first? — xaosflux Talk 03:31, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The Chinese Wikipedia has disabled cross-wiki uploads, and instead their users are directed to their local Upload Wizard phab:T208397. I'm very much in favor of restricting cross-wiki uploads from new users, but it's not clear to me how it would work technically in this request. @George Ho Is the idea that non-confirmed users couldn't even see the Upload dialog (little icon in the edit window)? Or should they still see it but when they click it, they're going to be directed to the Upload Wizard in Commons? kyykaarme (talk) 10:48, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Is the idea that non-confirmed users couldn't even see the Upload dialog (little icon in the edit window)? Not exactly. How about hide the "Export to Wikimedia Commons" button from non-confirmed users? Wait, this was already done, right? (phab:T160891) (See my reply further down. George Ho (talk) 18:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC))[reply]
    Or should they still see it but when they click it, they're going to be directed to the Upload Wizard in Commons? And then what? Let those users infringe copyright by uploading someone else's work without permission? George Ho (talk) 16:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Is the idea that non-confirmed users couldn't even see the Upload dialog (little icon in the edit window)? I didn't think about this idea when I re-proposed what the Commons community already approved. Come to think of it, I guess I'll make a request hiding the "Upload" dialog from non-confirmed users. George Ho (talk) 18:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    On the other hand, I realize that requesting to hide the "Upload" dialogue from non-confirmed users is broader than what I've been proposing. Should be up to individual communities, IMO. George Ho (talk) 19:04, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    What exactly have you been proposing then? As far I understand, the only way new users do cross-wiki uploading is via the Upload dialog. If we don't restrict the use of the Upload dialog, then how are we going to "restrict non-confirmed users from cross-wiki uploading"? kyykaarme (talk) 08:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Upload Wizard or old-school "classic" Upload form? George Ho (talk) 20:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Could you be more specific, I don't want to guess what you mean. Are you proposing that new users should be restricted from using the Upload Wizard and the classic upload form? kyykaarme (talk) 09:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    If we're restricting non-confirmed users simply from crosswiki uploading or transferring files to Commons, perhaps new users shouldn't use Upload tools at Commons. In other words, both the Wizard and the classic form at Commons. Meanwhile, local wikis shouldn't allow new users to upload files as "free" but rather non-free instead if such wikis allow non-free content. George Ho (talk) 09:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification! Just so that we're all clear, here's how cross-wiki uploading works (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong): while editing a Wikipedia page, a user clicks on an "icon" (= mw:Upload dialog), chooses an image file from their own computer, and then the image is uploaded to Commons and it's also added to the Wikipedia page. The user themselves probably doesn't even understand what Commons is nor do they have any idea about copyright. This is the "cross-wiki uploading" workflow that we need to change. It has nothing to do with "transferring files to Commons" or restricting new users from using the Upload Wizard/classic upload form. You would have to start a new discussion for those, as the consensus was to restrict non-confirmed users from cross-wiki uploading.
I see two options: Either show non-confirmed users a message that explains that they're not yet allowed to use the function, but in the meantime they can read about copyright and licensing [insert link to wherever they can do that]. Or, they could be guided to the Upload Wizard instead. Yes, they might also upload copyrighted images via the UW, but some users might understand that they're doing the wrong thing, when almost none of the users understand it with the Upload dialog. Those are the options that I see that could be reasonable and perhaps technically possible ways of restricting the cross-wiki uploading from non-confirmed users. And if we want the devs to actually do something, we need to know what we're asking them to do. -kyykaarme (talk) 11:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • show non-confirmed users a message: I don't know what kind of message honestly, but it should tell newest users they are not yet "confirmed", i.e. disallowed from using either upload dialog. They can read links about copyright if they want to. Nonetheless, this should apply to only Commons. Applying it to other wikis would be more restrictive than intended.
  • they could be guided to the Upload Wizard instead: The Wizard still has issues to fix before giving them warnings or whatever.
If they are gonna upload files, the non-"confirmed" users must be prevented or blocked from uploading files as "free", especially if using the Wizard dialog. George Ho (talk) 21:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused again. "Nonetheless, this should apply to only Commons. Applying it to other wikis would be more restrictive than intended." What does that mean? We're talking about cross-wiki uploading, and local uploads are already restricted to confirmed users only. "If they are gonna upload files, the non-"confirmed" users must be prevented or blocked from uploading files as "free", especially if using the Wizard dialog." I don't understand those sentences at all. The only way for non-confirmed users to upload images is to upload to Commons. Currently they can do it via cross-wiki uploading (=Upload dialog, which is different from Upload Wizard), or they can go to Commons and use the Upload Wizard there. kyykaarme (talk) 09:28, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
local uploads are already restricted to confirmed users only I didn't realize that. When did the restriction happen?
The only way for non-confirmed users to upload images is to upload to Commons. Oh, I see. I already started a discussion (not a proposal yet) at Commons, but so far, I've yet to see replies there.
Upload dialog, which is different from Upload Wizard They're both not interchangeable?
Sorry for confusing sentences. After reading your replies so far, I just don't know what else is going on. I just know that the communities have supported restricting cross-wiki uploading already and that WMF has yet to implement such restriction. I need public brainstorming, especially in order to make more sense. George Ho (talk) 18:17, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
mw:Upload dialog and mw:Extension:UploadWizard are different tools. Is this RFC about restricting the former without restricting the latter? whym (talk) 12:03, 7 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
┌───────────────────┘
 Is this RFC about restricting the former without restricting the latter? This RFC is about both actually. But it's still more about prevent non-confirmed users from exploiting those tools especially to upload problematic files. George Ho (talk) 22:52, 7 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Found past failed proposal to restrict/limit non-confirmed users from uploading certain videos and audio clips: click here. George Ho (talk) 19:15, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "after trying at dewiki" - can you say more about that? Any link? whym (talk) 13:10, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Here's the discussion from dewiki that I was referring to: de:Wikipedia:Projektdiskussion#Restrict new users from cross-wiki uploading files to Commons (old revision). George Ho (talk) 00:34, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • The RfC statement is accurate as far as I can see, and it reflects what everyone is unanimously supporting (across projects). Kyykaarme's summary above was also accurate. Cross-wiki uploading is the way new users add files to Wikipedia articles, without realising about licencing or even what Commons is. They get the instant gratification of seeing their photo on a page, only for it to get deleted later. The Commons Upload Wizard is designed for new users to learn about uploading, and is constantly getting improvements (as of last week). We need to get new users there, for their own sake AND to stop the piling up mess of cross-wiki uploads to clean up in Commons. One way is to disable cross-wiki uploading for non-confirmed users (this RfC). Really, I think total disabling would be ok, as confirmed users (it is not clear to me if this is Commons or local confirmation, but it makes little difference) will know about Commons/copyright and how to insert a file from Commons into an article (or know where to ask to find out). Another option is to develop an elaborate local Upload Wizard that deals with local uploads (fair use) and Commons uploads simultaneously. Another option is to switch the current cross-wiki upload button to upload locally and let each indivdual community deal with copyright/categories/attribution and filemove to Commons later. I rightly don't think English Wikipedia, for example, will accept the last option but they are currently dumping that work on Commons. I don't really know what George Ho is talking about in this discussion section and please don't let it derail this RfC. The proposal is sound - stop non-confirmed users of all wikis from crosswiki-uploading.--Commander Keane (talk) 13:22, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't really know what George Ho is talking about in this discussion section and please don't let it derail this RfC. I didn't mean to sound too vague or convoluted or off the point. I was asked questions, and I kinda muddled things too much. Please don't hesitate to right away ask me which ones to clarify further. George Ho (talk) 00:37, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @George Ho: I had a re-read of your RfC statement above and although the title and links to previous discussions all refer to cross-wiki uploading, you seem to imply that file-moving from local wikis to Commons needs to be restricted too. That is something else. I don't know the RfC protocols but is it ok if you strike out the two instances of "transferring" and note the date of update under your initial signature? If you agree, of course. Commander Keane (talk) 16:23, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Commander Keane: file-moving: you mean file renaming or file exporting/importing? two instances of "transferring": you mean partially my initial statement, right? George Ho (talk) 17:41, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @George Ho: sorry I was referring to mw:Help:Extension:FileImporter as file-moving. mw:Upload dialog is known as cross-wiki uploading. Terminology is not easy around here, I just know that mw:Upload dialog is bad news. Commander Keane (talk) 23:45, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Commander Keane you seem to imply that file-moving from local wikis to Commons needs to be restricted too. That is something else. Both the FileImporter and the dialog are bad news, IMO. The WMF study investigated also use of the Upload Wizard and the FileImporter extension, didn't it? Nonetheless, please feel free to disregard the FileImporter extension tool as a separate issue if you wish.
    Meanwhile, I recently learned that we the Users, especially newly registered ones, still have the upload and upload_by_URL privileges. (discussion) Of course, that's definitely a separate issue, which I'll address some other time after this RFC discussion. George Ho (talk) 00:02, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The problem seems to be that you want widespread restrictions that the community hasn't agreed to. Like making Commons users wait four days for upload privileges and restricting FileImporter. You will need to tackle each topic separately. I will make my support with caveats above. Commander Keane (talk) 00:51, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Whym, Kyykaarme, and Xaosflux: What do you think about Cmdr. Keane's assessment? Also, what do you think now about this proposal? —George Ho (talk) 03:39, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still not seeing anything actionable that can be deployed, assuming this RFC passes. — xaosflux Talk 05:09, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@George Ho I commend you for trying to get something done, but I'm afraid this RFC is too vague and the same was true for the Phabricator ticket. What we need is just one thing that has 1) consensus and 2) a possible technical solution. And that one thing is the Upload Dialog and restricting it from non-confirmed users. That, I believe, has consensus and now it needs a technical solution. It does not help that you talk about other tools such as the FileImporter or the Upload Wizard. Even if they were problematic, there is zero chance that they will all get worked on at the same time. -kyykaarme (talk) 11:04, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

At this point, I think the best path forward might be for individual wikis to do what the Chinese WP did years ago (phab:T208397). The way it works, as far as I know, is that when a user clicks the Upload Dialog, they're directed to this page zh:Wikipedia:上传. What actually happens when the user clicks the button there, that I don't know because it won't let me try it. But if, for example, enwiki had the same kind of setup, the user could be guided to a local page where there is information about images and copyright, and from there the user can be guided either to the actual Upload Wizard in Commons, or to the local file upload form, if applicable. Or, which probably happens in many cases, the user would realize that no, we cannot accept the image you found on Google. At least the user would have a chance at finding relevant information before doing things they shouldn't do. I might look into doing that in my homewiki, if I have the time.-kyykaarme (talk) 11:04, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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