Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Latgalian 2

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Latgalian Wikipedia[edit]

See also the first (failed) or third (successful) request.
main page Requests for new languages (Wikipedia Latgalian 2)
submitted verification final decision
Process-stop.svg This proposal has been rejected.
This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy based on the discussion on this page.

The closing committee member provided the following comment:

This request fails to meet one of the preliminary requirements of the language proposal policy, as the language is not identified by an ISO-639-3 code. Should this change in the future, feel free to resubmit this request. —{admin} Pathoschild 05:54:04, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Proposal summary
  • Language details: Latgalian (Latgaļu, bat-ltg [invented by ISO 639-3])
  • Editing community: Zordsdavini (P), Zummis (N), Stiernīts (P, N), Aviātors (P, N)
    List your user name if you're interested in editing the wiki. Add "N" next to your
    name if you are a native speaker of this language.
  • Relevant pages:
  • Test project
  • Previous request (closed during reform)
  • External links:
    latgola (promoting organization)
Please read the handbook for requesters for help using this template correctly.

This is re-request for Latgalian wikipedia. It had been approved once but police has been changed and everything was canceled. You can find the previous discussion here. Zordsdavini 08:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

URGENT[edit]

A native latgalian speaker who can represent the latgalian community please urgently contact LangCom. You can send mail from the user pages of GerardM or Bèrto 'd Sèra.

Arguments in favour[edit]

Quoted from the previous request:

  • Already have the test-wp for more than 1.5 year (incubator:Kalvis.apsitis started it)
  • Latgalian language have writing history from XVIII c.
  • Latgalians are well-known nation in Siberia, they were exiled here, and I know several good latgalians, and believe to their statements that Latgalian is a separate language. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
  • We have Samogitian, why not Latgalian. Steinbach (formerly Caesarion) 18:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • This is a significant and special language. Even the Bible has been translated into Latgalian! Veigule 05:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • "separate language" or not: it's a living written language and that's what counts. Fransvannes 09:11, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Approved once, test wiki has over 100 articles already (many of them with a large amount of content and a high number of edits). LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs 13:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
    • now there are 262 articles in Test wikipedia. Zordsdavini 06:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
    • now there are 326 articles in Test wikipedia. Zordsdavini 07:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. Such language does exist, is codified and has numerous speakers.--Nxx 14:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
  • IMHO, there is sufficient evidence that Latgalian has to be considered a distinct language. It has a history of being used in literature as well as in public administration. Albeit not serving as an official language nowadays, it is nevertheless recognized and protected by the Latvian State. --ARBE0 16:26, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Latgalian is a language which is very commonly used and widespread not only in the region of Latgale, but is also spoken by numerous people in the rest of Latvia (mostly in Riga), who have left Latgale to study or in search of work. Supporting Latgalian Wikipedia would give many latgalian-speakers the chance to read articles in this language, and read about things they cannot read elsewhere as just a few books are published in latgalian nowadays and as it hasn't got too much popularity on the internet yet. It is an endangered language and has to be supported! --Zummis 12:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Latgalian language has recently gained popularity among the people of Latvia, thanks to the rock group Borowa MC, which is singing in Latgalian and has won several music awards in Latvia in the past few years. In Latgale there is a very popular radio station in latgalian and in the last years many linguistic and cultural researches have been made, for example, scientific researches of the Latgalian minority in Siberia. After decades of belittling and suppression of the Latgalian language in the Latvian community it it is finally regaining importance, and Wikipedia should help Latvia not to lose one of its most important traditional languages/cultures! --Zummis 13:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong support. I have born and living in neigborhood of Latgalia, I have long personal contacts with Latgalian language activists and researchers and I know a bit the history of Latgalian. Of course Latgalian is not merely a dialect of Latvian. Latgalian has long history of its own literary language and it has been the second official language of Latvia in 1920-s. Later Latvian nationalist goverment of Ulmanis prohibited any official use of Latgalian. Latvian authorities still refuse to recognize Latgalian as a separate language. But it is exactly the same case as with Võro in Estonia and with Samogitian in Lithuania, and with many other languages which despite it already have their own Wikipedia. Actually Latgalian is the only regional or minority language in Latvia that is vital enough to have its own wikipedia, because the other small language of Latvia (Finno-Ugric) Livonian is too small and in fact extinct. Anyway Latgalian can be definitely considered as a language and it deserves and needs its own Wikipedia. (See also discussion in Wikipedia-l: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/htdig/wikipedia-l/2006-October/027937.html) Võrok 15:23, 25 April 2007 (UTC) (Jüvä Sullõv/Sulev Iva)

Arguments against[edit]

  • In the past the argument was used that there IS no code for Latgalian even in ISO-639-3. There is not even a reference to Latgalian in the IANA registry. In the ISO-639-6 there is a reference to Latgale .. this may be the same thing ? In the mean time this argument is as potent as it used to be. GerardM 14:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

General discussion[edit]

No ISO code[edit]

  • In the past the argument was used that there IS no code for Latgalian even in ISO-639-3. There is not even a reference to Latgalian in the IANA registry. In the ISO-639-6 there is a reference to Latgale .. this may be the same thing ? In the mean time this argument is as potent as it used to be. GerardM 14:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
    • The Wikipedia can be in language which doesn't have ISO code. And say "even in ISO-639-3" is not nice because to get it it's not very easy (for example, I asked for Samogitian but I didn't made good base and request was rejected). The most difficulty for stage of the language is political situation (the same is with Samogitian). I understand that GerardM wants clear system but situation is not in Latgalians side but Latvian and Latgalian are sister languages but different and Latgalian have clear system and history. ISO-639 code is only time (and political) question. I don't see the purpose for progress of the language. Zordsdavini 20:02, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
      • When it is indeed what is called "Latgale" in ISO-639-6 it can be considered, otherwise it will not pass muster. GerardM 07:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
        • "Latgale" is country. Latgalian is language what is spoken in that country. I don't find the list of ISO-639-6 and I can't say anything about it. How I understan - the problem is only ISO code for the passing? Zordsdavini 10:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
          • I have a preview of that data. I cannot publish it prior to some checking. Please send me a mail where you indicate that Latgale is country and Latgalian the language.. I will then pass it on to the ISO people. Without an ISO code it will be much more problematic to convince the language committee that what you have is a good thing. It would make it at least three times harder and the demands would be much higher. We need to know what it is you write and without a standard how do we know, how can we tell, how can we find a neutral expert? GerardM 20:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
            • There are information about Latgalian http://www.geocities.com/latgalian/. ISO or not-ISO, but it is living language tradition with speakers and literature. Feens --87.110.160.105 21:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
            • Hm. My last writting wasn't so clear :( Latgale is not political country. It's culturical, historical and like that. I don't know the expert here. This situation is very near samogitian status but samogitians hadn't done so much for the clear writing system but speaks lauder :) (there are 150.000 latgalians and 500.000 samogitians) My reasons for the status of language are:
              1. Cons:
                1. There is clear system of writing (grammer, dictionaries)
                2. There is writing history from 18c.
                3. It had official status in Latvia in the begining of 20c.
                4. There are discusion in Latvia for the status of latgalian.
              2. Pros:
                1. Official Latvia holds latgalian as dialect, so, there is no ISO code. (If it would hold latgalian as language ISO code would be found quickly)
            • Zordsdavini 09:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
  • When you refer to documents that old, it does not suggest that Latgalian is currently a language that is used.
  • The first bits of the ISO-DIS-639-6 have been published and you find Latgale as part of the Eastern Baltic Cluster where it is on the same level as Latvian and Lithuanian. Given that it has this recognition, an IANA language subtag is feasible.
  • The next question is, to what extend is it a living language.. For that we need to see a really lively Incubator. GerardM 07:47, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
    • now there are 326 articles in Test wikipedia. Zordsdavini 07:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
    • We can take this ISO-DIS-639-6 publishing of "Latgola" for recognition. Grate :)
    • About living material (books etc.) could someone speak from Latgalian - I know real Latgalian people. Zordsdavini 13:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)