Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Manchu 2

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Manchu Wikipedia

main page Request for a new language edition: Wikipedia Manchu 2
submitted verification final decision
Crystal Clear mimetype file temporary.png Discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Votes will be ignored when judging the proposal. Please provide arguments or reasons and be prepared to defend them (see the Language proposal policy).

The language committee needs to verify the language is eligible to be approved.

  • Check that the project does not already exist (see list).
  • Obtain an ISO 639 code
  • Ensure the requested language is sufficiently unique that it could not exist on a more general wiki.
  • Ensure that there are a sufficient number of native editors of that language to merit an edition in that language.

This proposal is on hold:

Manchu, Xibe and Daur are different languages. Of those, Manchu and Xibe belong to the Tungusic group, while Daur belongs to the Mongolic group. If you want to create projects in Xibe or Daur, please make separate requests. This page is about the request for Manchu Wikipedia. The status is on hold because we are waiting for native speakers. If you are a native speaker of Manchu, please say it on this page or send email to info@wikimedia.org. --Millosh 11:34, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code mnc (SILEthnologue) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Manchu Language name in English
Language name ᠮᠠᠨᠵᡠ ᡤᡳᠰᡠᠨ / manǯu gisun Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q33638 - item has currently the following values:
  • en label = Manchu
  • native label (P1705) =
  • instance/subclass (P31/P279) = language / Tungusic languages
  • Wikimedia language code (P424) =
  • writing system (P282) = Manchu alphabet
  • number of speakers (P1098) = 20±0


Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Community Whlee(P), Abstrakt(P), Mashuwen (P), Dalt, Šolon(P), Араси, Obonggi, Lijiahao0410
You can optionally list your user name if you are an active contributor to the test wiki. Add "N" next to your name if you are a native speaker of this language.
Links previous request
Abkai Manchu Keyboard & Fonts (English)/太清满文输入法、字体(Chinese/汉语)
Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Settings
Project name "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads no Files should be uploaded to Commons, but if you want, you can enable local file uploading.
Notes: (1) files on Commons can be used on all wikis; (2) this setting can be changed afterwards; (3) uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info); (4) localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons
Optional settings
Project logo File:Wikipedia-logo-v2-mnc-mong.png 135x135 PNG derivative from a decent SVG image (instructions)
Default project timezone Continent/City "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example for a Wikisource which would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk"
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
submit maniphest task (includes everything automatically, except additional namespaces/settings)

Proposal

  • Number of speakers: 20 to 50 Manchu, 170,000 Xibe, 132,000 Daur, estimated 1 to 1.2 million ethnic Manchu and Han people speak basic & simple Manchu language
  • Locations spoken: China, Taiwan, Japan, United States
  • Promoting organizations: <http://www.qiren.cn/>
  • Gertraude Roth Li who wrote , Manchu: A Textbook for Reading Documents , taught Manchu at the University of Hawaii and the University of California at Berkeley.
  • Jerzy Tulisow wrote (in Polish…) a small (192 pages) but complete and inexpensive Język mandżurski (« Manchu language »), coll. « Języki Azjii i Afryki » (« Languages of Asia and Africa »), Dialog, Warsaw, 2000.

Discussion

Arguments in favour

  • Support However, how will do you computerize this wiki? --Yes0song 15:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Support Just because Tungusic languages are very important in Siberia and I personally believe that the great Manchu nation is one of the most glorious Siberian nations. But some test project would be desiderable. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 23:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Support As Japanese and amateur philologist, I am fully for your proposal. Cheers, --Aphaia 15:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • SupportWelcome to Wikipedia - it is a language with history and the Manchu is alive, for that reason it deserves its place in the Wikipedia - Numa
  • Support.It's a important languague.--Ffaarr 07:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Support.It is an important language to scholars interested in the history and culture of the Qing dynasty and its interactions with nieghboring nations. Abstrakt 02:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - Manchu is still a living language. Here is an Online Manchu forum with lessons (in Chinese). Nevertheless native speakers are required in order to bring this Test-Wikipedia to life. --Jose77 22:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Support To make Wikipedia will help to save Manchu language since this language is historically important on East Asia. --Masoris 07:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong support!!: Save the Manchu language from endangerment!! Long live Manchu language!! --Edmund the King of the Woods! 19:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Support--Uannis 20:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Support--Kafkasmurat 18:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Support - the Manchu language is a language with rich cultural heritage in Asia and deserves it. Bogorm 10:21, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Support--Use traditional Manchu script. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 07:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Support Willy2000 14:01, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Storng support I think Manchurian Wikipedia must have. Population of Manchuria was never caught suddenly with Chinese language Wikipedia. They even have their own language. It must have Manchu Wikipedia.--Lousyi 02:51, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Strong support life for Manchu Wikipedia.--Md. Farhan 10:05, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Support Support Chabi 06:31, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Strong support --Jugydmort 22:21, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support per Whlee. Just because a language has few speakers doesn't mean we should not include it; if anything, we should contribute to its preservation and revival. I intend to work on the incubator to transcribe the Latin-alphabet articles into the Manchu script to aid in this. Once CSS3 writing mode is more widely supported, I think formatting the articles to be vertically displayed would help in its growth. Mnmazur (talk)
  • Strong support Here to show some support to the language of my ethnicity. Many of my Manchu friends can come here creating articles without problems--Šolon (talk) 22:15, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Support From 2007 to now 2016, according to my understanding, there are many more Manchurian people in mainland China picking up this language over this period of time and thus many more people could help out this project. But the accessibility problem of Wikipedia in Mainland China might make the surge in interest irrelevant to Wikipedia?C933103 (talk) 04:41, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Support I think we are need this wikipedia.--Baskervill talk 10:44, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Support, Manchu is a very important language in the history of China and has had a major influence on Chinese and world history. Even that aside having a Manchu-language Wikipedia would mean that there would be more incentive to finally make vertical script support a Mediawiki extension and pave the road for other vertically written languages like Inner-Mongolian, Classical Chinese (which already has its own Wikipedia), and others. Even if there are very few native speakers the language itself is still taught in several Manchurian universities such as the University of Harbin and scholars of the language could use a potential Manchu Wikipedia as a source of how the language looks and functions making it an educational tool beyond a simple encyclopedia. I think that a version of the Manchu Wikipedia should already be created in the Incubator to see the viability of the project. Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱. --Donald Trung (Talk 🤳🏻) (My global lock 😒🌏🔒) (My global unlock 😄🌏🔓) 18:08, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Arguments against

  • Oppose until the first native speaker crops up here. --Janneman 13:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • That is the biggest challenge i am facing up to now, if at least a Sibe or a Manchu native speaker crops up here and correct my eventual mispelling or grammatical mistakes then we would be able to see significant improvement.Whlee 07:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, I know few Manchu or Sibe native speakers, but the problem is they are not good at speaking English.--Šolon (talk) 22:15, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose As long as the section "Articles in preparation" does only contain stuff like "my", "this" etc. pp., which is not suitable for an encyclopedia but rather for a dictionary (so why not proposing a Manchu Wiktionary first which I would strongly support), I don't see the neccessarity for such a project. I know that the language has been (and still is) important, but if nobody is really willing to write some articles, I have to oppose. All existing articles that I can find in the Incubator wiki are empty pages. --Thogo (talk) 14:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • According to Ethnologue there are only 80 people that speak the language. GerardM 07:02, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
June 2008, Acheng District, Harbin, the Harbin Science and Technology Vocational College listed Manchu as a major. It is the first vocational school to teach the Manchu language as a major in China. [9]--虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 04:38, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Manchus have a strong independent culture which still affect a large number of people in Manchuria. Although Manchu language might not be a native language of a large population, it is still the second-language of a significant population in China and some other countires. -Kszkkk 04:36, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


  • Oppose. Althought I would be very pleased to see a Manchu Wikipedia happen, I don't see the point of starting this until some people who actually use the language are available to write it.—Nat Krause 16:19, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose No, no romanlized article. Create it until it uses tradition Manchu script. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 07:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
1000000% OPPOSE should be rejected --72.68.34.5 21:08, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Indented IP !vote —Dferg (disputatio) 22:50, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose until native-script rendering support is available; oppose in general principle against creating a Wikipedia for a language with only <100 native speakers, all of whom are also fluent in at least one other language that has a Wikipedia. The mission of Wikimedia is to transmit knowledge, not preserve languages. Deryck C. 16:39, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

General discussion

  • Support However, how will do you computerize this wiki? --Yes0song 15:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
It would take time but nothing is impossible because we will make a Main Page containing translitterated (written in Romanized/Möllendorf script) form and Manchu alphabet form.
Have a look at :
Tigrinya Wikipedia
Khmer Wikipedia
Cherokee Wikipedia
Inuktitut Wikipedia
Sinhalese Wikipedia
Gothic Wikipedia
and Cree Wikipedia.
Then you will understand how we will work.
Thank you for supporting Manchu Wikipedia. 고마워요 ! Whlee 14:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

How widely known and taught is Manchu? Do lots of people still learn it in universities?--Fox Mccloud 21:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Manchu language is taught by notorious linguist among them :
- Gertraude Roth Li teaching Manchu at the University of Hawaii and UCLA in Berkeley
- Aping Zhao - Heilongjiang University, Manchu Language and Culture Research Center at Harbin
- Andrew Shimunek - Indiana University : he made a Manchu-English Online Dictionnary in 2001
- Jerry Norman - University of Washington he aloso made a Manchu-English lexicon on manjugisun.com
- György Kara - Indiana University : U584 Introduction to Manchu II - Department of Central Eurasian Studies
- Alexander Vovin - University of Hawaii at Manoa
- Giovanni STARY - University of Venice
-Mark C. Elliott, Professor of Chinese and Inner Asian History - Faculty of the Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations - Harvard, he provides Manchu Language Courses
- Remin University of China
- Warsaw University (Uniwersytet Warszawski) - Institute of Oriental Studies (INSTYTUT ORIENTALISTYCZNY) Section of Inner Asian Peoples - Programme
  • I think some of you guys in this page really need to learn about the REAL current status of Manchu languages. People can not only learn it in colleges but also in middle and high shools of many places in Manchuria, the northeast China. See the links of proof: [3][4][5][6](Chinese reading ability required); And also many volunteers who teach Manchu languages in society for free, see: [7][8][9][10] (Sources also in Chinese simplified). So there are a lot of more speakers than the 70-80 ones in your mind.--Šolon (talk) 23:55, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose As long as the section "Articles in preparation" does only contain stuff like "my", "this" etc. pp., which is not suitable for an encyclopedia but rather for a dictionary (so why not proposing a Manchu Wiktionary first which I would strongly support), I don't see the neccessarity for such a project. I know that the language has been (and still is) important, but if nobody is really willing to write some articles, I have to oppose. All existing articles that I can find in the Incubator wiki are empty pages. --Thogo (talk) 14:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
1) About section "Articles in preparation" that section will disappear soon because i am cleaning the main page as you can see building frames categories (Mathmeatics (Tonocin), Geography (Natacin), abka shu tacin (Astrophysics), Biology (Banjirsu tacin), Litterature (s'u tacin), Music (Kumun) etc... as it was written above it is only an ALPHA version (pilote test; Wiki Incubator). You can also see the status of this Manchu version of Wikipedia. you are right those stuff will be removed and will be suitably added to Wikitionary.
2) empty pages: That's right most of those articles are empty excepting 5 articles and one template. See "Articles written only in Romanized Manchu language". As you can see i'm trying to learn Manchu language it is not easy but remain feasible. Be patient, perseverance has always been rewarded up to now.

Whlee 07:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

  • I hope CSS will support vertical writing and this wiki will introduce automatic converter between Latin (horizontal) and Mongolian (vertical) alphabet. --Yes0song 06:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
    • ASL test wiki is vertical.C933103 (talk) 04:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
  • I'm afraid there are not enough speakers. At least can anybody out here speak this language? --Wisconsus 15:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
    • Bi oci Manju niyalma inu. Seme mini niyamangga gisun oci Nikan gisun, tuttu bicibe manju gisun be majige bahanambi, daruhai baitalara gisun be gisureme mutembi. Bi tutala manju gucu be bimbi. Tesei Manju gisun ele nememe kemuhengge. Eicibe niyamangga gisun i niyalma be manggasika baihanambi, manggai urehe manju gisun i baitalasi oci tutala. (I am Manchu. Although my born language is Chinese, I can still speak some Manchu, like daily conversation. i have many Manchu friends. Their Manchu language is even better. Perhaps it is difficult to find born speakers, but fluent users are still many.)--Šolon (talk) 23:05, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Strong Support: First, I can find native speakers with no problem. I, myself even speak the language. Second, even if there is a problem to display Manchu scripts, it is still not the reason to reject. Because the language can be absolutely well expressed in Möllendorff transliterations. Otherwise, vertical writing alphabets are difficult to display in Wikipedia and also the most of websites anyways, Manchu lingustic users should not have to wait because of technical problems. It is simply inhuman. What appropriate is, writting articles on Manchu Wikipedia by using Möllendorff transliterations while waiting for the best technical solution of vertical writting display on the other hand. Wikipedia is the place where everybody creates articles to give free knowledges, not the place making difficulties to obstruct others accessing to the knowledges.--Šolon (talk) 23:38, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Question: how compatible is the written Sibe language with written Manchu? Sibe has a lot more native speakers, but it is of much less interest to historians and language revivalists. Could Sibe people and Manchu revivalists use the same Wikipedia?—Nat Krause 16:26, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Sibo language gets a code “sjo”. Sibe people moved to Xinjiang in 1764, and is a recognized ethnic groups in PRC. They may be related to Manchu or Xianbei. See Xibe language for the difference between Xibe and Manchu language. IMHO Xibe is not an endangered language as of Manchu. --Hello World! 04:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)