Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Montenegrin 3

From Meta, a Wikimedia project coordination wiki
Jump to: navigation, search

Montenegrin Wikipedia[edit]

See also the fourth (rejected) and fifth (open) requests.

main page Requests for new languages (Wikipedia Montenegrin 3)
submitted verification final decision
Process-stop.svg This proposal has been rejected.
This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy based on the discussion on this page.

The closing committee member provided the following comment:

This request has been rejected for the same reasons as the November 2006 request and April 2007 request; the discussion below has not provided new information that would change this decision. There is no ISO-639 language code for Montenegrin, which is a strict requirement for eligibility. —Pathoschild 14:29:14, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Proposal summary
Please read the handbook for requesters for help using this template correctly.
  • Speakers: 144,000

The Montenegrin language is the official language of the independent nation of Montenegro. Yugoslavia has been dissolved and thus with the Serbocroatian language gone, all languages are now separate - Croatian for Croatia, Bosnian for Bosnia&Herzegovina, Serbian for Serbia. All of them have Wikipedias, and now sow shuld montenegrn as - Montenegrin = MONTENEGRO! Serbia and Montenegro are no longer a common state and Serbian domination has been removed from Crna Gora. Liberation has begun and in 2007 Montenegrin has been declared official language. In 2009 the first Montenegrin PRAVOPIS was adopted as a proposal. There were some difficulties, but MontenegroWiki was finally revived as a project in 2009 with support from the Montenegrin patriotic NGOs.


Arguments in favour[edit]

  • support (nominator) - CRNOGORSKI PATRIOTA
  • supportDoncsecztalk 08:24, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Thank you brother, I will support Prekmurska vikipedija and we shall fight like brethren side by side. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CroForge (talk)
  • support - I've read the texts in Montenegrin on the Internet. Finally, the orthography of Montenegrin became official Radio Slobodna Evropa Ozvaničen pravopis crnogorskog jezika (July 10, 2009). "Crnogorski ministar prosvjete neočekivano je odobrio pravopis crnogorskog jezika s rječnikom na kojem su radili profesori iz regiona". Translation: Montenegrin Minister of educaton has unexpectedly approved the Orthography of Montenegrin language with the dictionary, whose authors were the professors from the region. And not less important, Montenegrin diplomacy and state leadership has recquired the official translations in Montenegrin: [1] "Iako je predviđen službeni prijevod na hrvatski jezik, Crna Gora odbija sudjelovati na inauguralnom sastanku Euromediteranske regionalne i lokalne skupštine (ARLEM), koji će se održati 14. svibnja u Bruxellesu – ako se ne osigura prijevod na crnogorski ". Translation: Although the official translation into Croatian was provided, Montenegro refuses to participate on the inaugural meeting of Euromediterranean regional and local assembly (ARLEM), that'll be held May 14 in Bruxelles, unless the translation in Montenegrin is provided. Kubura 02:06, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
    I truly wonder, where exactly did you read texts written in this new "Montenetrin" ? My Montengerin informants tell me that this new orthography isn't used anywhere. The only place I've personally seen it in the papers of Vojislav Nikčević (in a somewhat modified form). TV, textbooks, newspapers...all use the usual Serbo-Croatian orthography. It's dangerous that we start a Wikipedia in an orthography which hasn't be used and tested anwhere, becaue that would mean original research and that isn't allowed. That mistake was made while approving lots of Wikipedias for extinct languages, which today now abound in OR material (true champion of which is the so-called "Old Church Slavonic Wikipedia"). There would have to be some quite imaginative neologisms to compensate for the lack of credible literature abiding by this new orthography. Some would quite justifiably argue that unattested forms would be deliberatly preferred only to make it appear more "different" to bs/hr/sr/sh pedias. Like you guys on Croatian Wikipedia use šport instead of 100 times more prevalent sport, predstavništvo (never heard that in my life!) instead of reprezentacija etc. That would give completely wrong impression to the readers, as well as likely induce another vicious circle of "if you do not use this spelling, you're not true XXX". --Ivan Štambuk 01:15, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
    About the Orthography of Montenegrin language [2]. How did the Montenegrins got the Ortography [3]. Institut za crnogorski jezik i jezikoslovlje "Vojislav P. Nikčević" (Institute for Montenegrin language and linguistics), founded by prof. dr. sc. Vojislav Nikčević, academist prof. dr. sc. Vukić Pulević, publicist Stevo Vučinić, prof. Žarko Đurović and publicist Borislav Cimeša. That Institute is the publisher of the scientific magazine Lingua Montenegrina, that deals with Montenegrin language Online edition. ISSN 1800-7007. Montenegrins have the right on their own language and name it as they want it. Kubura 04:59, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
    In other words, the only place that this new Montenegrin orthography can be found is in the obscure publications by extremist clique of Montenegrin linguists. No general-public books, magazines, Internet portals, TV stations... Hardly a sufficient evidence. 99.99% of Montenegrins are illiterate when it comes to this new orthography, and thus it's pointless to introduce a Wikipedia which most of the native speakers of "Montenegrin" could not properly contribute to, which would abound in original research and would likely introduce more fringy orthographical "solutions" with every day of its existence. (Judging from experiences of Croatian Wikipedia).
    You also claim: Montenegrins have the right on their own language and name it as they want it Uhm, no they don't. There is no such thing as "linguistic self-determination". They have the right to profess their own culture, but claiming that the language they speak has absolutely nothing to do with the speach of Serbs which contitute 30% of the Republic of Montenegro, as well as linguistically identical language spoken by millions other neighboring Slavic nations, is way out of line. At best, they have the right to their own standard, national variety of Serbo-Croatian, and that's what this nascent Montenegrin standard can aspire to be one day in a distant future. But not today. --Ivan Štambuk 17:21, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Montenegrin official letter from the alphabet ś (which he does not have any other language with area former Serbo-Croatian) is used in schools and government documents. Here's an example from the official site of the Assembly of Montenegro--Markus cg1 20:02, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Pardon me for barging in, but I can freely testify that it is not widely used in schools and government documents (and besides, the parliament is neither an education nor a governmental institution). We can also see on the official parliament page that it makes quarrels between two streams of the orthographic proposals for the standardization - it uses the character "ś", however it refers to the Proposition as Predlog, rather than they hyper-iyekivized Prijedlog, i.e. keeping the Serbian-favored word over the Montenegrin-favored word (skimming through the slightly ambiguous official Serbian iyekavian orthography from Niksic from 1993 and the first official Montenegrin orthography+orthographic dictionary from 2009). --RichardArnolde 00:12, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
The official spelling of the Montenegrin language allowed the variant, for example đevojka-djevojka, đeca-djeca, and the prijedlog or predlog and one other correct in the Montenegrin language. Here it is about the fact that it is not possible denial - Montenegrin language the official language in the state of Montenegro --Markus cg1 17:05, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
This all seems to me to be but a plain transliteration play, and here is the algorithm: (1) Since we use iekavitsa, we've got lots of 'j's in our words. Cool. (2) Now, lets blend some of them into another existing letters. (that's the way to get dj->đ) Cool. (3) But that is still not enough. We will pick another two letter combinations with 'j' and blend them too. Voila! We've got 'ś' and 'ź'. Cool. (4) Finally, we'll pick some more words, having i.e. simple 'z', and replace this letter with 'ź'. What else Montenegrin language has to offer in order to differ with Serbian? Pardon me, when put this way, it is clearly possible even to make a bot that would copy-paste every thing from sr.wp into Montenegrin wiki. Don't take me wrong, I don't mind sharing the knowledge from sr.wp. But why duplicating the content on the language that is not in practical use? The bold statement about the number of native speakers speakers just doesn't appear to have any credibility, and I call this a try to spread (1) artificially and (2) from political reasons created language in form of a new Wikipedia. 本 Mihajlo [ talk ] 16:30, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

What do you think of the Montenegrin language? This is a private opinion, which does no foothold in the facts. Number of speaker of the Montenegrin language is from 2003. Montenegrin language is the official language since 2007. year. Spelling is an official language of Montenegro in 2009. These are important and relevant facts. these facts are beyond discussion.--Markus cg1 13:02, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

  • support--Roberta F. 03:02, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
  • support. What is real difference between serbocroatian, serbian, croatian and bosnian wiki ?? If we are having this 4 wiki then we must have Montenegrin —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rjecina2 (talk)
  • support-the Montenegrins have right for their own language.--Aradic-es 07:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
  • support-As an administrator of Wikipedia in Croatian language I give full support to this project. Montenegrins should have the same rights as other nations of the former Yugoslavia.--Braco 10:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
  • support same rights for the Montenegrins like for all the other nations! Yugo-nostalgic nationalists (those who don´t accept the end of their unitaristic project Yugoslavia) are against Montenegrin language in order to save their artifical "Serbocroatian language" Otherwise it would be a discrimination. Just say no to this last "Yugoslav" trial, accept the rality and the right for freedom for everybody! --Modzzak 12:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
  • support--Man Usk 14:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
  • support--Jure Grm, 26. day of February in Year of Our Lord Twotousandandten, at 20:56 o'clock.
  • support--Everybody should have the right to write in his/hers native language. Fraxinus 21:30, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
  • strongly support Even if there are opposers with arguments like "sh is enough", this language has its own standard and two more letters than bs, hr or sr Report about Parliament decision of accepting the standard. Beside of this, it is a official language in Montenegro Constitution of Montenegro 2007. There are more than 144.000 speakers Results of population census 2003, 22% of population. So if we can have dialects like bar, gsw or ksh, why should we not support cg as we supported bs, hr or sr? The way to ISO 639-3 is in this case just a short bypass through the political games played on Balkan. --WizardOfOz talk 21:49, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
    Because they are not different dialects. Modern standard Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian and this nascent "Montengerin" all are based on one and the same dialect - Neoštokavian. There is no "language" that these are "dialects of". Open up any South Slavic dialectology book. There is infinitely times more justification for any of these "real" dialects that you mention, which differ in plethora of grammatical features (phonology, morpholohy, inflection, syntax), than there is for these four (which are grammatically 99% exactly the same). These are not dialects but standard varieties of a singular dialect, i.e. of one pluricentric languge Serbo-Croatian/BCS/whatever you want to call it. --Ivan Štambuk 00:53, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
    Ivan, even if you won´t recognize, sh is dying. Those 22 million speakers of former "Yugoslav" don´t exist like this state and will never come in same constitution. Everyone have a right on his own language, and if the language has own standards, it is a language. We are not talking about political decisions, as the most of opposers do, we are talking about knowlage we should deliver as a part of the Wikipedia community. If there are 144.000 speakers who want to learn in their own language, why should we forbid it? Thats what a Wikipedia is for. You are allways looking in the past. Vienna linguistic conference is past. There are same decisions wich was made just few years ago. The world and Balkan are going on, we are no longer in 19 century. What kind of language sh was, can be seen in his name. Maded under pressure, declaring it as sh and not as yugoslav, but why? ´Couse it is a mixture of those two languages of just two greatest nations in former Yugoslavia. Rebuilding of four languages on Balkan wich have longer traditions than 19. century and sh, are just the first steps in the future. The fact is that all those languages have own standards, are recognized, have speakers, and are official languages in some states. That is the only thing we need to know. There are over 700 projects of Fondation, and some of them don´t even have speakers or are dead languages (latin) and we have a project on this language. What are the really reasons not to start montenegrin wiki? Just becouse there is sh wiki? There are also bs, hr and sr wiki, why should we give two standards? this is a wrong place for political statements, you should think in the way of Wikipedia idea and not the way some yugonostalgics do. --WizardOfOz talk 08:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
    I can't comprehend how you can vote for a merger of Serbian, Muslim and Croatian languages and claim to be a ‘nativ’ speaker of Serbo-Croatian in the wiktionary of the English language and yet do the complete opposite here. --Pepsi Lite 09:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
  • support--Saxum 22:13, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
  • support--[demicx] 22:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
  • support--Croq 23:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
  • support--Vhorvat 03:20, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
  • support--Pepsi Lite 07:01, 27 February 2010 (UTC) I as a Serbian, fully support this. Yugoslavia and the Serbo-Croatian language was the greatest mistake we have ever made. Don't need some losers putting blame on their own personal failings on Serbs.
  • support Vladimir Marjanović 08:00, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
  • support Esad —The preceding unsigned comment was added by esad (talk)
  • support--Sokac121 09:37, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

strongly support 1) Montenegrin is stated as only offical language in the Constitution of Montenegro.
2) All web sites in Montenegro are written in Montenegrin.
3) Montenegrin has 2 extra letters than other languages even I don't think this should be more imprtoing then the first point I just wrote.
4) Montenegrin gots a standard and ISO code will be done soon, as you all know it is a big birocracy and that's why we have to wait this long.

If official government web sites of foreign countries have Montenegrin, then that shows that language haves respect from other countries. See the embassy web sites which are found in Podgorica:

Crnogorski means Montenegrin

Poland: http://www.podgorica.polemb.net/
USA: http://podgorica.usembassy.gov/

Germany: http://www.podgorica.diplo.de/Vertretung/podgorica/de/Startseite.html

CEFTA 2006: http://www.cefta2006.com/en-index.php

etc...

Rave92 12:14, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

  • support --Markus cg1 19:19, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Funny, in case that Crnogorski is not written at the corner, one may think it is pure Serbian. -- Bojan  Talk  12:22, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
And I forgot: after nearly 20 votes/comments, You are first Montenegrin. I started to believe that our neighbors wish Montenegrin wikipedia more than Montenegrins themselves. -- Bojan  Talk  12:26, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to remain neutral in this discussion, mainly because I was invited here through a phone call, but all Montenegrin websites are not written in Montenegrin. Actually, it's far from it, it's like Ivan Štambuk has stated. Additionally, if CEFTA is a reason for justification, I think there also needs to be a Moldovan wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RichardArnolde (talk) 14:18, 27 February 2010

Status of the Montenegrin language

1. Since the adoption of the Constitution of Montenegro in October 2007. Montenegro's official language.

2. Article 13 Montenegrin Constitution specifies that the official in Montenegro, the Montenegrin language, the Cyrillic and Latin script have equal status Constitution of Montenegro (2007.).

3. Vocabulary and spelling of the Montenegrin language has been verified official decision of the Government of Montenegro (Ministry of Education) 10. July 2009. news of the official verification of dictionaries and Spelling Montenegrin language Dictionary and spelling Montenegrin language. --Markus cg1 19:50, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Dear Markus cg, your points 1 and 2 are the same, and yes, that is a plain fact, but although by being the official language of an independent country it gives considerable weight to the language and essentially we'll all agree voices support of founding a Montenegrin Wikipedia, it is not, however, related to the respective language's standardization. Regarding the Orthography and Orthographic Dictionary of the Montenegrin language which has been passed by the Ministry of Education and Science in mid-2009, please refer to my lengthy letter to the below. The orthography is but a temporary one, a guideline with an attempt to see how the language's respective speakers and writers will react and what will they adopt to be the standard in the wake of preparations of the language's standardization.

Additionally, the Council for the Standardization of the Montenegrin language which has been appointed in early 2008 by the Government of Montenegro, composed out of 13 experts on the field, has after a very long work and tons of quarrels (we have a lot of problems on finding a standard, the 3 new characters being just a part, albeit a big one) submitted two official proposals (one of which I supported and found the other unacceptable). But instead, Minister of Science and Education Sreten Skuletic has completely discarded both formal proposals, and went on to the creation of a third one, which was hidden from public eye, including the very standardization council, until it was in June 2009 officially approved by Skuletic. The job was not given to anyone in Montenegro. The job was given to a Philosophy professor at the Serbian University of Novi Sad, Milenko A. Perovic, known for his extreme points of view (none of which have earned him any sort of word in linguistics), mildly said. His colleagues were indeed linguists: prof. Dr Josip Silic, a retired Croatian linguist, and a Ukrainian linguist specialized among other fields in Croatistics, prof. Dr Ljudmila Vasiljeva. This speedily-made Orthography and Orthographic Dictionary of the Montenegrin language has already received widespread critics, and I for once have no intention to accept it, nor do the masses that oppose it. Sadly, accusations about political motifs on this page have considerable basis, since that orthography I cannot consider a linguistic one, as both orthography proposals the Council had submitted, but a political one, stemming from Minister Sreten Skuletic (high-ranking member of the Democratic Party of Socialists of Montenegro). By excluding the public and practically the entire nation of Montenegro from the process, Skuletic has strongly politicized the beginning of the process of standardization of the Montenegrin language. --RichardArnolde 23:56, 27 February 2010 (UTC)


Does a perfect spelling of any language? I doubt it. To people of Serbia that there is absolute koncensus linguists? No. What do you think about Montenegro's spelling is not important here. The only relevant fact is: the Montenegrin language is the official language of the Constitution, the Government, which has a Democratic majority is declared the official spelling --Markus cg1 17:13, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I do not understand what you're talking about (I'm trying very hardly, could you rework your sentences to a more understandable level of English please?). I would also ask kindly of you to stop inserting politics into the Montenegrin language. The very statement you used, claiming that it is quote [The only relevant fact] is quite alarming and politicizing (the declared language in an adopted constitution - e.g. like Castilian, your odd wording "Democratic majority" etc.), pushing forward the Montenegrin government and all, as is this whole project proposal. --RichardArnolde 18:30, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
The Constitution is a product of politics. Everywhere. And in Montenegro. The Constitution of Montenegro states - Montenegro's official language.--Markus cg1 22:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

@BokicaK

Yeah funny isn't it? In case Crnogorski wasn't written, someone would think that it is the Bosnian or Croatian? The point is?

And not sure if I am the only Montenegrin, it's more like Montenegrins who are active on Wikipedia are not active on META, and don't even know about this vote. It's maybe better to have support from people all around the world as they are more neutral than you and me.

Bosnian perhaps, but Croatian not. Croats don't use januar, februar, mart, april, maj.... And Bosnian diverged much from Serbian/Montenegrin in these last 10-15 years. You are first Montenegrin after 20 votes. That is not your fault, we all know whose is. -- Bojan  Talk  13:54, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

@RichardArnolde

Actually they are. 90% of it at least. CEFTA, international organizations and representatives, government etc... it's here to prove if they can respect Montenegrin language, then Wikipedia can too, and can give Montenegrin wiki.

Rave92 09:33, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Dear Rave92, if the Montenegrin language is yet to receive a written standard, how can they? The chaotic example of the scientifically ungrounded Orthography of the Montenegrin language (added by an Orthographic Dictionary of the Montenegrin language) is also best seen within the parliament web page as I've shown to you myself. The chaotic situation is illustrated by the government website, while I see no change at all in the Official Paper of Montenegro or, as you say, international organizations and representatives. But that is all politics, and I should advice you that in the best interest of the Montenegrin language, you pull politics completely out of this (it has already been politicized more than enough). What needs to be shown is widespread usage (including in every form of media, e.g.) of the changes proposed, which would characterize Montenegrin as sufficiently different enough to (under point 3 of the eligibility requisites) receive a Wikipedia of its own. This, if you are really a resident of Montenegro, you'll know it not to be the case. But in any case, there are far more pressing matters because of which this request must fail, as I have already mentioned before.

Also, could I please ask you a private question? Does the 92 in your nickname refer to the age of your birth? This is a private question, so feel free not to answer me, of course. --RichardArnolde 10:05, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Dear RicahrdArnold, as this is last my message directly written to you, I will answer just this time as your offending comment on my page and referring to me as son is just showing that you are not serious. Montenegrin language don't have yet to receive standard, it was already published. You can download it here: http://www.gov.me/files/1248442673.pdf

Use of Montenegrin language? We talk Montenegrin language all the time, usage is all around you (us, since you are not from Montenegro). If you mean letter ś, usage is on media RTCG, web sites of diaspora, and someone already mention it is used on Parliament web site. How is that irrelevant? It's one of most important institutions in country, and they couldn't do that without standard now couldn't they?

As for the last question, it may be my age, my favorite number, date of birth, everything, it is up to you what the number "92" will be. For most people it's totally irrelevant, but for you, it looks it's very importing, not sure why though. Rave92 18:44, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Dear Rave92, I apologize strongly on my part that you have misinterpreted my words. I hold no personal grudge against you whatsoever. My presence, actions and words thereof are strictly coming from a professional level.
Before directly involving yourself in this page, you should've read carefully the discussion that has been going thus far, lest making me repeat myself. No, the Montenegrin language is not standardized. It has received an official Orthography of the Montenegrin language (which was not the work of the Council for the Standardization of the Montenegrin language, but a Working Group unilaterally assigned by the Ministry, composed not by Montenegrins and in closed eyesight to Montenegro), which was added by the Orthographic Dictionary. However, the Grammar still remains to be made, and this, highly controversial and vastly disputed orthography, is merely a transitional one in the process of standardization of the Montenegrin language. A final one will be passed later on, after inspection of popular usage, or at least that was the Council's idea (its other propositions were, as we see, rejected by the Ministry of Education and Science). So no, there is still no Montenegrin literary language.
If you are referring to the web site of the Montenegrin state television under abbr. RTCG, then you have obviously made a mistake. Again, you go with insertion of politics into this field. It doesn't matter what the Assembly of Montenegro does. It wouldn't matter if it wrote all texts in Mandarin and called it Montenegrin. What matters is a confirmation of the new orthographic changes' massive and determined wide-spread usage amongst the speakers of the Montenegrin language.
Regarding that last point, I offer you full understanding on my part. I would be lying if I stated that age of persons involved is totally irrelevant. That is a position, I am sure, most people will rather agree with me, or at least most members of the Language committee.
Sincerely yours, --RichardArnolde 19:14, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
  • support--Pavo 13:33, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
  • support -- Has equal rights as any other language, regardless of ISO code or not. It can use cg.wiki or mne.wiki as a wiki code for the language. -- Bugoslav 15:33, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
This kind of unconsidered votes I was precisely referring to to the below, Bugoslav, did you read any part of the ongoing discussion? Regarding the ISO code, according to the requisites for a request's eligibility:
The language must have a valid ISO-639 1–3 code
And more precisely, please refer to the following citation of the Language committee:
I'd advice everyone to be a lot more careful and to please, stop putting support and oppose votes on automatism based on an invitation by a third party, but join the discussion, with viable arguments of course. --RichardArnolde 16:12, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
  • support--frk@ 18:58, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
  • support I suppose it has been referenced elsewhere (I didn't read all the pro & con stuff), but here is a link on Montenegrin orthography & appended dictionary:[4] Mir Harven 22:40, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
  • support If there are Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian Wikipedia, I really do not see the reason of not allowing Montenegrin Wikipedia. If Wikipedia already started this language absurd, then let's go for it until the very end. The basis for the existance of so many Wikipedias from ex-YU territory is a puerely political question. So, Croatia and Bosnia are independent states, they want to have their own languages, so let them have it. Montenegro has recently become an independent country. Why would Montenegro be anything different from Croatia or Bosnia? If political reasons prevailed in two previous cases, then why would we now pretend that linguistics is so important?I say give Montenegrins their Wikipedia! In this way, we shall all be the equal.--Maduixa 11:25, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
  • support as per the arguments given above, although some of the proposers seem like mere charlatans to me. The second attempt we had on this issue was much more serious and supported by many established editors, but was rejected nonetheless. Another thing I am uncertain about is if there would be enough interested editors to create a decent encyclopedia in Montenegrin. Anyhow, I generally support the idea according the right on self-determination, and the fact that the language has been institutionalised since the last attempt. Sideshow Bob 01:06, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
  • support --CERminator 13:44, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
  • support Everyone has the right on self-determination. --Flopy 20:47, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
  • support This language is part of human's heritage. Denying it means denying a society and their rights. So I am 100% agree to their existance on the world wide web. Zandweb 06:28, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • support Every larger South Slav nation from the exYu has its own language, just the Montenegrins don‘t. Also, there are wikipedias which language has a smaller number of speakers than this. --FriedrickMILBarbarossa 20:45, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
  • support- I agree with everything that has been said above, especially by User:WizardOfOz--Cradel 11:09, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
  • STRONG SUPPORT This language is a language. It's separate from Serbian. Remember, no 2 cultures are alike. The Montenegrins deserve a wiki. --Kanzler31 02:01, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Arguments against[edit]

  • OPPOSE * Not a real language, and the person who proposed it can't speak any form of Serbo-Croatian correctly. Zastava S. Jugoslavije.png Szajci reci 12:07, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Youre a Croat, if you dont suport this zou are a traitor of your own kin! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CroForge (talk)
    • Wow, you are using a flag of a not existing country and vote against a existing language? --Modzzak 19:38, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
    • What a heap of absolutely irrelevant arguments. 本 Mihajlo [ talk ] 16:41, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
  • oppose The British Empire has dissolved, so it's about time we get an American Wikipedia, eh? I think the Brazilians are about ready for their own wiki, too.--Prosfilaes 18:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
    • If British Greater Imperialism, or Spanish, has been destroyed, then why not? I just dont see Americans and Brazilians WANTING full freedom and God-given liberty. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CroForge (talk)
      Uhm, because languages are not determined on the basis of national borders, but on the basis of linguistic justification. That's the problem with Balkan nationalists, they think that "every nation has a right to its own language". It doesn't. There is no such thing as "linguistic self-determination". You do not "own" the language you speak. It's good that you admit though that the creation of "Montenegrin language" falls within the same line of reasoning as with the hypothetical creation of "Brazilian language" or "Mexican language" - it's completely senseless. Americans and Brazilian enjoy their God-given personal freedoms. There is no such thing as "cultural freedom", simply because the ethnolinguistic histories of all the nations of the world are interwined and you cannot simply take something that's not exclusively yours and pretend that nobody else exists. --Ivan Štambuk 14:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
    The British Empire has dissolved, so it's about time we get an American Wikipedia, eh? That's a logical fallacy. If the fall of an empire allows an oppressed language to furtheron exist in its own right, it doesn't mean that every fallen empire must result in independant languages. Maybe there are good reasons against Montenegrin Wikipedia, but this is none. --::Slomox:: >< 21:10, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Montenegrin language couldn't be oppressed simply because it didn't exist 'till last decades of 20th century. -- Bojan  Talk  07:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
      • No yur wrong, ofcourse they are good reason. Its only if that people dont want, then they dont want. Look at you Americans, you dont want democratic god-given liberty & freedom and you want English. That is also your democratic right NOT to want your own language! User:CRNOGORSKI PATRIOTA
  • OPPOSEMontenegrin language is now reality, but it is artificially created language for political purposes which is not enough distinctive from Serbian ijekavian language in real life (I'll explain later). Historically, Montenegrin language has begun to achieve popular support at the end of 20th century and the beginning of 21st century, which is coincide with Montenegrin movement for independence, spearheaded by someone who once supported and carried Serbian cause during wars in former Yugoslavia. Before that, Montenegrin language was never mentioned (at least not seriously). There was two factions among those who were saying that they speak Montenegrin before 2009: one faction argued that they should just simply rename Serbian in Montenegrin. The other faction argued adoption of Zeta-Sandžak dialect as official (note, Zeta-Sandzak dialect is considered for Serbian dialect, too). First official orthography of Montenegrin language was adopted recently in 2009. The orthography allows old way of writing (without new graphemes) Mainstream medias from Montenegro still use old way of writing which is 100% compatible with Serbian [5][6][7]. I have found mostly negative reviews (redundant/just two new graphemes, forced hiper-iotation of words that weren't ijekavian forms, archaisms). Then, due to similarity of Serbo-Croatian languages, one of the features of our wikpedias is "copy-paste" way of writing articles, so Montenegrin wikipedia would be no exception. And finally, I question motives of two "native" speakers, who are not Montenegrins. See this for example what we have here. -- Bojan  Talk  04:46, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Funny. You are saying that during Montenegro has not been state in 19 century and before 1918 ?
If nothing else we are having agreement about Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian and SH wiki :)--Rjecina2 04:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Huh? You talkin' to me? Where did I say that (note, official language of pre-1918 Montenegro was - Serbian; Montenegrin is modern (political) invention) Anyway, "CRNOGOGRSKIPATRIOTA"'s ignorance and actions (hate speech, canvasing, lies, personal attacks, harassment) has discredited this request and he is main argument for declining it. On your place I would be ashamed to be in alliance with him. -- Bojan  Talk  05:42, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Wrong. My thinking about language is very similar with Ivan Štambuk, but my point is if Bosniaks, Croats, Serbs and Yugoslavs (sh) are having wiki why not Montenegrins ??
My thinking is that everybody from exYugoslavia must have own wiki or nobody--Rjecina2 23:36, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Montenegrin language simply doesn't satisfy requisites #3: The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. Btw, I'm neutral on unifying existing wikipedias into one, it has its advantages, but also and problems. I'm willing to contribute on such Wikipedia. -- Bojan  Talk  02:12, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Is Montenegrin language new or old reality? It is now a reality, written in the constitution and laws of the state of Montenegro. What about a thought? This is a personal thing. I hope that Wikipedia acknowledges reality, which at this place called - Montenegrin language --Markus cg1 17:25, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
New reality that exist only on paper. -- Bojan  Talk  17:38, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Am I the only one who sees here also, and even more importantly, that it doesn't meat requisite n. 2? --RichardArnolde 18:20, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
  • OPPOSE This is a fabricated language imposed by the regime of Đukanović aimed at stirring up further the discord among the South Slavic people. It is noteworthy that the official number of alleged Montenegrin language speakers, notwithstanding the regime propaganda, does not exceed half of the population of Montenegro. There are three South Slavic languages - Bulgarian, Serbo-Croatian and Slovenian and the vast majority of linguists (which are not politicised), both before and after the Balkan wars of the 1990s, classifies the languages in no other wise. Bogorm 11:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose It is so obvious that political expediency dictates that the current language of Montenegro is called "Montenegrin". But the main language in today's Montenegro is “Serbian in an ijekavian form”. Less than half the population in Montenegro speak Montenegrin, and it is because it is not a real language, rather than a political fiction. The Montenegro government website is interestingly in a language referred to as Montenegrin. However, a cursory look at the website reveals none of the three additional letters which might help confirm the nature of this language as Montenegrin. Instead, the texts are written in the standard ijekavian version of Serbian. If the Montenegro government does not use that language, why should we? So far I have not read any good reason in this discussion for introducing a new language, except perhaps that Wikimedia has to follow the extreme political views of individuals. You're a Croat, if you dont support this you are a traitor of your own kin! - Are these the main arguments, or it may be considered as a threat to opponents? Wikis should not be split along political lines, and individuals here actually trying to do it. But that's not all. They considered it that this proposal is equally good idea as well as American and Brazilian Wikipedia, which confirms my previous words. Montenegrin is artificially created language for political purposes, The Montenegrin government supported it but does not use it, just few Montenegrin citizens use it. What is the next? I strongly oppose the proposal. My English is not good, so I apologize if I made some mistakes. micki talk 15:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
  • OPPOSE The most important thing to bear in mind is that There is no such thing as Montenegrin language, it doesn't exist!, at least inasmuch as there is no "Croatian languge", "Bosnian languge" and "Serbian language". All those 4 official "languages" that we have today are national standards diverged from the former Serbo-Croatian language standard that was codified in the early 19th century (and was official during the Yugoslavia federation epoch). From the perspective of sociolinguistics they're different national varieties of one pluricentric standard, nothing else. The only thing that has changed is that the very same grammar books and dictionaries that were titled "Serbo-Croatian grammar" or "Serbo-Croatian dictionary", became reprinted as "Croatian grammar" and "Serbian dictionary", respectively. In every possible linguistic aspect it's one and the same language. Exactly the same phonology, accentuation system (very complex one), morphology, syntax - more or less the whole grammar. Thousands of inflectional and derivational morphemes exactly the same. The Serbo-Croatian speakers of Zagreb, Sarajevo, Podgorica and Beograd understand one another 100%. All the colloquial differences (as well as artificial ones in the "standards") are phonologically trivial and intuitively graspable by all the speakers. In sheer volume, they're much less than than the differences between varieties of English (British, American, Australian, Indian..), German (Germany, Switzerland, Austria), European and American Spanish and Portuguese... From the perspective of dialectology it's all the so-called Neoštokavian dialect, which was agreed to in the 19th century by Croatian, Serbian and Montengerin linguists in the 1850 Vienna Literary Agreement as a basis for the common literary standard. Absolutely nothing has change ever since! The only deviation in the recently published "Montenegrin orthography" is the introduction of two new letters in the alphabet, <ś> and <ź>, for the iotated sequences of /sj/ and /zj/ - and these are not mandatory! I.e. the orthography allows both e.g. <isječak> and <iśečak>, and <kozji> and <koźi>. And guess what: almost all South Slavic linguists completely ridiculed the introduction of these new letters, because they're not only not spoken by most of the Montenegrins (inhabitants of Montenegro, not to be confused with the concept of "ethnic Montenegrins" because Serbs and other people constitute a bulk of its population), but also because they have no linguistic justification at all, because they completely break the phonological orthography (one letter per phoneme), and this <ś> and <ź> are phonologically predictable allophones, nothing less. Also, they're not used anywhere - last time I checked all the newspapers, books, TV stations...used the usual SC orthography. 99% of people doens't have a clue how to type these letters on the usual keyboards (there are no "Montenegrin keyboards" or "Montenegrin keyboard layouts" in Windows). In fact, if you do a web search on any of these words with these two new letters (see the full list on Index:Montenegrin), all you get is the websites that massively list them, and not the actually written discourse used by the netizens. In other words, they're not used anywhere. The creation of this "language" is a result of political desition and carefully crafted nationalist propaganda. The support that this proposal enjoys by certain Croatian Wikipedians is because it falls in the same line of justification as their own Wikipedia - it's redundant and thus pointless. bs/hr/sr/sh pedias regularly copy/paste thousands of articles among one another with trivial modifications (that can be automated by search/replace functionality of a text editor), and Montengrin pedia is likely to join this wasteful game. JUST SAY NO! --Ivan Štambuk 14:38, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
  • oppose --Dijan 16:17, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose - [8] --Maria Sieglinda von Nudeldorf
  • oppose Exactly the same as Serbian ijekavian, of which I am a native speaker. Purely political voting. To ladies and gentlemen that say otherwise, I will put forward a question: Would you like to vote for ČAKAVIAN and KAJKAVIAN wikipedia? They differ much more from official Croatian, than Serbian from so called Montenegrin. And go and read Gorski Vijenac for heaven`s sake. This will put your mind at ease, as to who the Montenegrins really are. --Мирослав Ћика 05:12, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
  • oppose Artificially created language for political purposes. Apsurd like brasilian and portuguese. --Kaster 20:53, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose, as a native speaker of that language, I strongly recommend rejecting this proposal. As I have been invited, that could mean one could easily exclude this vote from the consideration (although, as it says to the above, this isn't a vote), but that is evidence as to how precise everything here began with a political implication from the very start (to say at least, I was invited by a young party activist asking me to support this proposal "for my homeland"). My position has been summed down to the below, it folds down to my characterization of this whole motion as a very bad-faith one and pure shock at the people who support this. It is very shameful that all of us, including me, are even discussing this issue, making it look like the main basis for the Montenegrin language is Serbophobia. I have characterized these support votes as most probably a result of lack of information, if not experience (age); I believe that many have voted on automatism just after reading the word "Montenegrin" with little consideration of any previous facts that have led since the opening of this request, or about the consequences of heir actions. I therefore also pledge everyone who voted so far (and will vote in the future) to, if they hold no grudge against the idea to one day (after our language is standardized) have a Montenegrin Wikipedia or against the language itself, please change their opinions. Additionally, I have disputed the prerequisites and the problematic realities that this request faces in the wake of the Wikimedian community's and rules' standards. And lastly, I'd like to point out what also had a significant impact on my determination to oppose this idea: since there is no real standard for the Montenegrin language, it is a very big reality that it is intended that a Montenegro Wikipedia (as a popular means of an online source of knowledge) would be used to impose, or at least influence on, a standard for Montenegrin-language users, which is the last thing I'd condone. Let us consider this young party member that has invited me, and take a look at the Montenegrin Wikipedia captured by party activists, forever and finally pushing this entire matter into the field of politics, promoting what they (as most likely highly inexperienced in linguistics) believe should be a standard for their language. My answer and strong plea to everyone is NO, with as I've mentioned, little understanding for those saying yes (this doesn't exclude the improper attitude of many of the opponents - Мирослав Ћика has apparently insinuated about our ethnic origin on this page, bringing a totally unrelated matter to this page). --RichardArnolde 10:05, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose Language is created for political reasons... --Geologicharka 19:24, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose This language don`t exist. They don`t have ISO code also. --Јованвб 20:16, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
  • oppose False language.--Лечени 16:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
  • strongly oppose: Beside this, as per Ivan Štambuk, RichardArnolde and Bojan. I will cast further comments where I find fit. 本 Mihajlo [ talk ] 16:41, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose montenegrin = serbian Sauly 21:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose --Жељко Тодоровић 15:21, 13 March 2010 (UTC) с. р.
  • oppose Montenegrin is not separate, but identical language to serbian. --Aleblok70 19:48, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
  • oppose At the moment, Montenegrin can't be taught in foreign countries, precisely because it has not been fixed yet ! Considering that all the Montenegrin culture ever considered itself as Serbian, we should at least wait that the language is sufficiently structured, with a codified grammar in wide and concrete use in Montenegro. Nonetheless, there is yet a dramatic loss of energy between the serbian, croatian, serbocroatian and bosnian wikipedias... What would be the point in adding a new one, whose difference with the others would sometimes consist in one or two different letters ? --Alvaro de Campos 19:11, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose Where is the difference between Serbian and Montenegrin. I can't see any. --Malsia E Madhe 20:04, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose, since there is no generally accepted and/or written and/or spoken standard of this "Montenegrin" language. Montenegrins should decide first, what their language should look like, before we start a special Wikipedia for it. Don't get me wrong: I'm not opposing the view, that there is a Montenegrin language. The question is, what it's like. And this shouldn't be solved or even decided here. In any case not by terribly emotional patriots, who use big letters instead of argumentation. -- j.budissin 10:29, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose No difference btw Serbian and Montenegrin. --Alexmilt 12:59, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Wikipedia already holds 4 projects in the same language (Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Serbocroatian). Why to make fifth one? Hugo.arg 14:53, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose: When we open Brasilian or Australian Wikipedia, I'll support this. --Pokrajac
  • Oppose. Every independent nation should have its own Wikipedia? So, why then we do not have American and Canadian Wikipedias? Taamu 17:32, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

General discussion[edit]

Open a general discussion in here. - CRNOGORSKI PATRIOTA

This proposal, beside being written in barely literate English, is a prime example of hate-mongering nationalist machinery. This paragraph alone:

Unfortunately, the two last Wiki proposals for MONTENEGRIN were rejected, because of Chetnik propaganda. Careful analysis reveals that most of those who opposed the project are Chetniks. And now, with the GreaterSerbianist agenda falling down, it seems only right to form a Wikipedia for the Montenegrin language, since all the disilusioned dreams afre falling down as we see Kosovo declared independence and is even now an independent country

Chetniks were a line of Serbian nationalists that collaborated with the Nazis during the WW2. During the Yugoslav wars in the 1990s some Serbian paramilitary groups identified with the long-forgotten movement while committing atrocities against Croats and Bosniaks. Needless to say, that term is extremely pejorative nowadays, and equals to calling e.g. every German a "Nazi". Given that some of those who voted against the proposal are in fact Croats (such as myself), calling us "Chetniks, it's doubly so.

Also a comment of this "CroForge" dude (which is obviously somebody's sockpuppet):

Youre a Croat, if you dont suport this zou are a traitor of your own kin! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CroForge (talk • contribs) .

This is reminiscent of the times of Tuđman's and Milošević's dictatorship in the 1990s, where the official partyline ideology of extreme nationalism was the only one permissible in the public discourse, if you want to be a "true Croat/Serb" (and given that the countries were at war, who would dare to be called a "traitor" ?). It's the lowest form of hate speech and no decent person should identify himself with this petty Goebbels-like propaganda. --Ivan Štambuk 15:07, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

It seems that Mr Stambuk mixchangeg some "small" details: The day before yesterday Yugoslavia was created as a dictatorship with a artifical language, yesterday Yugoslavia ended with arms and mass graves, today we live respectful in neighbouhood and wish the same right as for us for our Montenegrinan neighbours and tomorrow nobody will remember anymore about "Serbocroatian" Myth.--Croq 23:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Nonsense, Serbo-Croatian language was standardized on the Neoštokavian dialectal basis a century before Yugoslavia was created. See Vienna Literary Agreement - 1850. Who exactly "forced" the most prominent figures of Croatian National Revival back then? Nobody, they do it on the basis of their own free will. So please no more silly lies, OK? --Ivan Štambuk 00:45, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

The request will be on hold until ISO 639-3 code would be assigned. --Millosh 03:44, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

If this Montenegrin wikipedia request passes, I will try to put forward a motion to start Čakavian and Kajkavian wikipedia, on the basis of known fact that those dialects differ quite a lot from official Croatian. Many literary works were written in them, so proposal would not be very far fetched as the one we see on this page. --Мирослав Ћика 05:20, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

    • I myself would.--Aradic-es 06:48, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
That wouldn't work because Kajkavian and Čakavian dialects (they're more like dialect clusters actually - nar(j)ečja) are extremely diversified; there has never been any kind of officialized orthography for any of their speeches, and the the sounds transcribed by the linguists use special characters that can not read or written by common people. It would simply never work. Native speakers of these dialects are schooled only in the standard language and don't have the faintest idea how to write their mother tongue properly.
On a relatd note: the usual notion of Čakavian and Kajkavian being "dialects of Crotian" is completely wrong. They're different languages on their own. Standard Croatian is the Štokavian language, the same as standard Bosnian and Serbian. Not only that, but they're also the same subdialect of that same language. --Ivan Štambuk 17:39, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Unbelivable, what theories / lies Mr Stambuk tryes to sell here just in case to stop wikipedia in Montenegrin language. This is not even worth to comment. We have Wikipedias in several german dialects, eg in Boarisch, Alemmanic, Low Saxon (Plattdüütsch)... . Now w few o yugonostalgicans are trying to stop this project in a internationally recognized language. Isn´t that sick? Not even in the money of ex Yugoslavia was printed in "serbocroatian", but 4 languages...were written on the curency of ex Yu as everybody can see on the pictures here--Modzzak 19:33, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Personal attacks have never been a good way to conduct discussions. Interlocutors should be respected, even when we disagree with them. In addition, Wikimedia Meta-Wiki has a strict policy against personal attacks. Let's discuss without insulting. micki talk 20:35, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how ex-Yugoslavian money is relevant here, but it was printed in Serbocroatian (in the Latin and in the Cyrillic scripts), Slovenian and Macedonian. -- Bojan  Talk  03:57, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

ISO-639-3 Code Application for Montenegrin[edit]

The current proposed ISO code cg is invalid because it needs to be comprised of three letters.

The three-letter code must be one that has not already been taken here.

The current Language proposal policy states that: "If there is no valid ISO-639 code, you must obtain one". The current organisation which sets the ISO-639 codes is SIL International.

The formal process for submitting a request is described here: http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/submit_changes.asp

--Philip J 20:42, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

cgr is not taken, and it will most probably be the code for the Montenegrin language. Why should not it be used right now - for WM. -- Bugoslav 00:01, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Because we don't know that it will be used for Montenegrin, and because we don't know that Montenegrin will be approved. Looking at the SIL proposals list, no one has even bothered to propose Montenegrin to SIL, without which it will never be used.--Prosfilaes 22:00, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
especially since the request for Montenegrin has recently been rejected. SIL ISO-639 19:47, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

RA[edit]

Well, here are my two cents. A lot of people have already been starting to talk about this proposal, and as one of the people who are, sort of, experts in Montenegrin linguistics, I have been invited to give my definition and to support the foundation of this project (you will excuse me if I don't give any specific names over here; I believe that this folds down under what has been mentioned already as canvassing). Firstly, I will not support this project, but I will give my precise definition. Does the Montenegrin language exist? Of course it does. No one in here on this page can deny that. The tricky thing is that not all of us here think on the same thing hiding under that two-word phrase, and the main one, should it have a Wikipedia? In this effort I shall cite from the conclusion of the first request for a Montenegrin Wikipedia:

In the end I'd like to mention the final decision of the Language Committee at the second request:

This sentence is, I believe, crucial and should be significant for this third request, which in accordance to the very person that is the proposer of this Wikimedia project, should be the lucky third one. All 4 Serbo-Croatian (Central South-Slavic diasystem as it is preferred by many fellow Croatian experts on the issue or whatever you'd like to refer to it out of political correctness) language Wikipedia have been created even before the language committee was founded; through e-mail requests. It was (and will) - and for all the sane-minded reasons mentioned up to now at the two previous requests, and at this present one, it is still very unlikely that any new Wikipedia in this language(s) will be created, among other reasons because it isn't in the interest of the Wikimedia community itself.

Now what I mentioned to the above might seem harsh, especially concerning the fact that some very solid points have been laid at this web page and at the ones before, including the controversial individual that founded this one: from one moral standing point of view, there is absolutely no doubt that the speakers of the Montenegrin language should have the same right as the one given to the speakers of Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian, especially more so if there exists such a thing as a Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia. Let me also tell that in such a case I'd also very likely support the formation of a Bunyev Wikipedia, because, despite the miniature numbers when compared to the others (and especially such significant comparisons, e.g. between the declared speakers of Montenegrin and Serbian, the latter being tens of times bigger than the previous), specified individuals who speak Bunyevatz should definitely have the right to create, edit and maintain wiki pages on their language. In this context, I'd like to mention one thing I believe to be a very sad fact. It is evident that both previous requests and this one have fallen down to a highly politicized (according to the opening of this project, its purpose is not to have Wikipedian articles in the Montenegrin language, but to fight the irredentism of the Greater Serbia ideology) Croato-Serbian argument. We have most Croats continually supporting this project and most Serbs likewise continually, opposing it. I can tell easily them, the Language committee and the entire Wikimedia community that it is most probable that the votes of these online users are not guided by common sense, nor by logical reasoning. These respected young individuals' votes are, as it seems to me personally, driven by their national emotions; their votes relying mainly on their ideas originating in real-world political themes. I can tell everyone that it is easily very likely that most of the Croats who supported this project would oppose a Bunyevian Wikipedia request, just because their respective dominant view at the Bunyev people is identical to the Serbian one to mine, and thus the votes would find themselves turned the other way around. One needs only take a peak at the support votes. Why aren't there Montenegrin-speakers? Why is there Doncsecz, who has, as he said, traded his vote for CroForge's support of a Prekmurian Wikipedia?

And I strongly plea Meta-wiki's Language committee (referred to as LC abbr. in the following) to take the following words into serious consideration. The goal of the Wiki idea is as Jimbo Wales had originally devised it in giving every single person free, unbiased access to the sum of all human knowledge. What is the justification for the LC to do something that is essentially against the interest of Wales' great vision? It is more than evident that this Balkanization of that which is in expert literature still known as Serbo-Croatian (note: regarding Ivan Štambuk's likewise-a-bit-emotionally-driven statements on this page and the responses about it being a dying language by WizardOfOz, one should refer to the European Union and the statements respected individuals have stated for the process of European integrations, how we can't expect them to translate everything into 3, let alone 4, just because of semantic segregation) only leads to further fragmentation into more and more projects which would have considerably more and more biased articles, with more and more isolationism and extreme nationalists taking over such projects, alienating other, potential contributors? Let us not do something here for which we would likely be sorry afterward. The main problem is not, as one has already stated, in the likely fact that articles would probably be copied from one to another, (although that indeed is a noticeable issue, one which is even silly every foreigner will here surely admit) but in the position other existing Wikipedias will be pushed into and the impact it will altogether have on Jimbo's dream. Is there anything wrong with improving the existing, or better said, worse, than having lame two ones? Is the idea to avoid requests endorsement of superior intra-wiki intervention in case of abusive local Wikipedias ran by POV-pushers by having more such examples, inevitably leading to useless results when it comes to spreading the word of knowledge?

And now to turn the wheel a bit back to this potentially future Wikipedia itself. I am highly against bringing politics (which includes patriotic or even national romantic ideas) into here, and I strongly believe that Wikimedia projects are not for nation-building. The reason why I have been invited here (as likely will a lot more people appear, or so I expect) is precisely that one: it has been stated that the purpose of this Wikipedia is to revive, maintain and strengthen Montenegrin nationalism and the Montenegrin national identity, in the wake of a much stronger, affirmed one, Serbian. I am also very worried about the repulsive attitude of the founder of this project, User:CroForge, who has in the words of other a many alienated the entire community against himself, eventually leading to the bizarre fact that this project's founder has apparently been banned after creating immediately a record of misbehavior. WizardOfOz has removed from the opening text the inflammatory part of his speech, I have no idea if there is some rule to remove, or if even perhaps he as a strong supporter of the Montenegrin Wikipedia has willfully removed it in an attempt to personally intervene and help this motion's passing, but I will quote (after Štambuk's selective quote) the whole deleted part now:

This has (aside from other actions of that Wikimedian which seem include harassment and an abundance of personal attacks; including, which might also be the most important thing, an obvious anti-Serbian sentiment - he intends to fight, apparently), I'll admit, significantly put me off from supporting this project before a careful study, as I believe is the effect identical on most people. Heck, it might also be the very reason because of which the previously mentioned administrator has removed that part as I've already mentioned. But fact is the seed of this project's motif obviously has its roots in daily politics. If I was a member of the LC, I'd immediately request the rejection of this project seeing all of this.

Let me now turn to the speakers of the Montenegrin language. I am myself far too busy (nor that much interested in/free time for the internet anyway) to dedicate myself to work on the Montenegrin Wikipedia, but I'm sure I'll get my son to work on it, if it is created, in an attempt to protect it from turning into the nightmare described before in my post. But who are the native speakers who are standing in front to be the founding fathers? Two: Sideshow Bob and Rave92. AFAIK, I should mention only the latter, because apparently, Sideshow Bob hasn't even added himself, but has been named by this project's indefinitely banned proposer in his place. By the way, could even do that legally? One of the conditions should be acquiring a sufficient number of speakers to found the respective Wikipedia, if that even already officially isn't, and I just don't see that condition fulfilled. And what about its supposed external test project? There is absolutely no one in there, there is virtually no content at all, and it ain't even in Montenegrin.

Coming closely to the end of my overly long letter, I'd like to touch one more important question. Namely, the only reason why this project should pass instead of the previous one is, logically, if something has changed in the meantime. One thing indeed has changed, and the problem is that it's the only thing. A first Orthography and Orthographic Dictionary of the Montenegrin language was passed by the Montenegrin government's Ministry of Education and Science. According to the orthography's opening text, it was based the Orthography of the Serbo-Croatian Literal Language from the Matica Srpska and Matica Hrvatska 1960 Novi Sad-Zagreb issue. Its writers have also openly stated that for amending it into the Montenegrin Orthography, they have used the Orthography of the Bosnian language of Senahid Halilovic (Preporod, Sarajevo, 1996), the Orthography of the Croatian language of Lada Budurina, Ivan Markovic and Kresimir Micanovic (Matica Hrvatska, Zagreb, 2007) and the Orthography of the Serbian language of R. Simic, Z. Stanojcic, B. Ostojic, B. Coric and M. Kovacevic (Niksic-Belgrade, 1993). In point 2 of the prime statements it is even clearly pointed out that the Orthography for the Montenegrin language is nothing but the Serbo-Croatian Orthography with several amendments - the entire Montenegrin orthography is in effect nothing but a collection of rules which amend the Serbo-Croatian one, telling the reader to refer to the BHS one in all other cases. The stated facts clearly go along that which Ivan Stambuk had written prior to me on this page. Additionally, this is merely a pre-proposal, as it has been officially stated. A real final orthography is only to be issued after it is shown what standard the language's users have widely accepted. So the claims of our language being standardized are simply put, false. There has been no move apart from this transitional orthography, which I for one part find quite unacceptable nor will I or anyone I know ever apply it. So how can a language be standardized if it officially awaits standardization? The only reason for creating a Montenegrin Wikipedia I see is in an attempt to enforce a form of standardization to the Montenegrin language.

Most importantly, none of the two drafts made by the Montenegrin expert linguistic team, composed by the Government of Montenegro in 2008, have been passed; none of them being this' Orthography of the Montenegrin language. Instead, the Ministry of Education has rejected both proposed orthographies, and submitted and adopted and entirely different one, for which it has received widespread criticism, including from the members of the Committee for the Standardization of the Montenegrin language. Therefore it can hardly be said that it is a work of Montenegrin linguists, nor that it has the legitimacy to be an Orthography of the Montenegrin language, but represents merely that for which is being accused - a work of, again yes, political motivation.

In the end I'd like also to quote Meta:Language proposal policy#Application procedure#Requisites:

Apparently, not even a valid ISO code has been submitted, as Phillip J has pointed out to the above. Therefore, I see the support vote quite confusing, especially when all of these points which I've laid out are summed down. Let us wait for the SIL International first and foremost. That is why I humbly plea the Language Committee (and everyone else who partakes in this) to, should they find the free time, carefully read my words and take them into consideration.

I hereby apologize to all those who have recognized me for such a presentation, since being a person that styles himself as a Montenegrin and calls his own mother tongue "Montenegrin", it has been expected of me to cast a quite different vote and present a significantly different picture. I am very sorry, but I must always present a clear image; I also know that most people know me for my expertise and professionalism and will not hold ground against me for being sincere and as truthful as possible.

Sincerely, --RichardArnolde 21:51, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

About removing of the part of initiators text: it has been removed in concern and wish of opposers who saw them attacked. You can see my talkpage on sr.wiki, and the talk page of user Bojan. User Modzzak has also been warned to remove his personal attack in other case he will be blocked. To the facts: it will be nice to know who has invite such an expert, as you say for yourself? I will try to contact Prof. Brunner in next week, and ask him to give his two cents to this proposal in historic facts and Prof. Woldan for linguistic part . To solve the anonimity problem and to be sure for their reputation, i tought to ask them to provide their two cents through OTRS. Sure, if they wants to do it. So we have three experts in this situation. Two approved, and one anonym. --WizardOfOz talk 22:20, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
PS: As a member of Language Comittee says above, this proposal is on hold until the ISO 639-3 is provided. I hope "on hold" doesn`t mean we can´t discuss? --WizardOfOz talk 22:24, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I understand. My most sincere apologies if you misunderstood my words and took them up against me. Regarding that, I am fully aware that everything written to the above simply folds itself down to my word and that there's no evident guarantee that I am really expert (I might be considered as someone posing himself as such in attempt to automatically attract more weight to his or her words), but I shall think about that if I study it deeper. I both have a reputation to defend and have a strict approach when it comes to the internet, of which I am inclined to admit I do not have a very good opinion at all. I always teach my children to never ever give under any circumstances any personal information at all. Regarding the question as to who precisely invited me, as I've stated, I was invited through a phone call by a certain young individual, who might have already perhaps even voted, and if not, definitely will. Regarding the question of identity, if you are an administrator, I'd strongly ask you to remove any personal information about me anyone posts in here (but permanently, making it invisible in the history option), since there are probably a lot of individuals who might be angry at me. Is that possible? Of course we can discuss until SIL registers Monteengrin, although there's no telling how long that can take. I'd myself as I've stated not leave open this request, but outright reject it, mainly because of the reason how it was started and who (the banned offender) started; continuing the discussion after a Wikipedia Montenegrin 4, which would be properly started - because sincerely, this request is greatly tarnished and has a very big black stain, dragging it since its start. It will be even more shameful for the LC, the whole Wikimedia and myself as a Montenegrin speaker if this motion is ever passed. That is why I find very little understanding for the supporters (excluding, out of obvious reasons of course, the children), especially including you yourself, who wrote that you're a strong supporter, an act which might've led to my wrongful prejudice about your intervention. Practically this whole page seems as an attempt not to create a Montenegrin Wikipedia, but rather discredit the Montenegrin language itself; I am thus very surprised how I am the first one who notices this possibility.

P.S. I have forgotten to write about one more thing, most of all because I consider it unimportant and essentially, a bit foolish. I have been also asked to confirm some accusations made against Pathoschild (Jesse Plamondon-Willard). There were some talks quite some time ago in the circles I associate regarding the issue of the Montenegrin language (that's how I got most of the information and was introduced to the whole Wikimedia in the first place) how Piamondon-Williard was likely secretly bribed by someone from the Serbia Wikimedia, it was even mentioned once on a public forum. I for once can only corroborate that it was a matter of discussion and claim. I can not confirm the accusations, nor disprove them, but I personally find them highly unlikely and originating in harsh emotional sorrow caused by the failure of the previous two requests for a Montenegrin Wikipedia. --RichardArnolde 22:42, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

For your consideration, regarding the question you have posed me about keeping an open discussion until an ISO language code is assigned - according to Meta:Language proposal policy#Requisites, that is not a condition for final approval, but to pass eligibility. Final approval awaits a test project and a MediaWiki; it fails an eligibility condition (n. 2, and according to some in here n. 3, but that can be said about a lot of existing Wikipedias). --RichardArnolde 01:27, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

The point is:if Montenegrins want to write in their own standard language...who has "right" to stop them? I mean .. Ican not write it but somebody can and will.--Anto 08:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes! Name of official languages is always politics. It is everywhere in the world. It is not fair right now to deny the Montenegrins. Montenegro is a member of the United Nations, OSCE, expected to receive is to become a NATO member. Everywhere in respect of its sovereign decision. Why would Wikipedia be an exception? --78.155.49.155 12:50, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
The things you two have mentioned have got absolute nothing to do with a Montenegrin Wikipedia. That is politics and everything around this entire page is being politicized. I will once again call everyone to put a hold on that. --RichardArnolde 21:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Canvassing[edit]

The Wikimedian community should be aware that on the Bosnian and Croatian Wikipedias' official boards users were invited to vote and then subsequently as a response on the Serbian too. --RichardArnolde 22:13, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedias even in german Dialects[edit]

Dear gentlemen, we have wikipedias in a load of dialects. Also in a lot of german dialects:

I think that this discussion is not necessary..Let it be !--Modzzak 17:11, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, thank you for mentioning that, but that makes no difference to this discussion, nor to the facts I have outlaid to the above. All of those three German dialects have language codes. --RichardArnolde 18:18, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Everyone with even a slight knowledge about language codes knows that these codes come- in case of structurally similar, or even typologically identical, but functionally different standard languages- often grudgingly, as a belated recognition of a cultural/linguistic fait accompli by a bunch of exhausted & defeated language bureaucrats. So, phleaseee...Mir Harven 22:26, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
And what does anything you wrote have to do with the official language proposal policy? --RichardArnolde 22:13, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Montenegrine is not a special dialect of Serbian or Croatian, or whatever, but only another name for the same ŠTOKAVIAN which is the actual standard literary language in Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and Montenegro. The others dialects of the bosnian-croatian-serbian are ČAKAVIAN and KAJKAVIAN which are usually not written, and only spoken in western Croatia. --Alvaro de Campos 21:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

@ users of Croatian wikipedia

AFAIC you don't have to listen to me, but I don't know how You can't realize that your actions only bring damage to Montenegrin language and Montenegrin Wikipedia. So far 16 of you have voted what makes almost half of your community, a I'm sure that more will come. If LC decline the request (what is certain, 'cause LC won't violate own rules), Montengrins should thank you for this. One day Montenegrin language might be standardized; it might get ISO code; Montenegrin might become sufficiently distinctive from Serbian and widely used, thus making Montenegrin Wikipedia eligible (it will stay language with political background, though). But bitterness for turning this to politics will remain and both Montenegrin and Croatian Wikipedias in eyes of global community will be stigmatized. -- Bojan  Talk  04:01, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm a Cro wiki user (and I'm not pushing-just supporting- the Montenegrin language wiki project), but I fail to see what's your point. The "distance" (how to measure it ?) from other Štokavian-based langauges is irrelevant. The relevant points are that: a) there exists a language community which wants their language to be named XYZ, b) they want to write & publish in their language (which is one of basic democratic rights). In this case, the language in question is even an official language of a sovereign country. This is the real basis of all the jazz, not the "distance" between languages. Mir Harven 12:20, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
The "distance" is relevant. Wikimedia Foundation doesn't need financial, technical and burden that represent two wikipedias, wiktionaries... etc on same language. Those who (claim that) speak Montenegrin can get free knowledge on 4 existing wikipedias. Next problem will be POV, and nothing said here and previous request and seen on Crnogorska Enciklopedija doesn't give me hope that I'm wrong. -- Bojan  Talk  13:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
The "distance" on which level ? They are the most "distant" standard language of all, re. their phonemes inventory (ś, ź et.c.) As for, say, morphology, word-formation (not the same in Slavic languages), syntax, semantics, stylistics, lexicology, discourse,..- it is irrational to require they should satisfy some non-existent test of "differentiality". Especiallly the finances "argument" reminds me of the pretence used in Yugoslavia to promote Serbian language in practice ("we don't have enough money to print all the laws & federal injunctions in all four languages); incidentally, aped by Bosnian unitarian language planners who use the same "excuse" to oust Croatian and Serbian languages whenever & wherever possible.Mir Harven 14:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
So why don't you find the "distance" beyond laws and proposals? In news and speeches of Montenegrin, especially politicians, you wont find different morphology, word-formation, syntax, semantics, stylistics, lexicology, discourse... -- Bojan  Talk  15:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

So it is politics when Montenegrins want something for what they have right, but if others nations search for the same, it's normal? Rave92 16:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

When other countries make up a new name for an old language so they don't have to speak the same language as their neighbors, it's politics just the same.--Prosfilaes 16:40, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

You're all missing the point in here. I will in short attempt to summarize, trying to be as clear as it is possible:

1) The Language proposal policy that has been mentioned here before writes:

It is clear as day that it does not qualify the n. 2. It is therefore utterly confusing to me that the Language committee did not decide to stick to Meta's policies and bypass them, putting the request on hold (is this a precedent - the first such case?). What does "on hold" precisely even refer to?

2) I'd much more be satisfied if we wait first for the process of standardization of the Montenegrin language (which could take quite some time). As I've already explained before, it is my fear that a Montenegrin Wikipedia would be used in order to promote or enforce a standard, even before the standardization, which cannot be allowed to happen.

3) Everything about this proposal is bad, beginning with its proposer and the opening. It presents a slap into the face of everything the Montenegrin language is and will be. That is why I find beyond comprehension the decision to put this Wikipedia proposal on hold, considering that it will be a very dangerous move to ever accept it. Once again I feel like the crying voice of reason that none want to listen to. I have repeatedly asked the Adminship to delete this page; I fear that that is no longer possible, so I strongly recommend the Language Committee, for the sake of returning to Meta's policies and altogether making things right, decline this essentially shameful proposal. Approving this request, if that occurs, will also constitute a strike at the very basis of Meta of unimaginable proportions - it will send a very bad message of unconstructive tolerance, showing clear approval - if not even support - of trolling. --RichardArnolde 22:13, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Language comparison examples[edit]


Ethnic origin of Montenegrins is no secret. In fact, my ancestors are from Montenegro. After unsucessful uprising against the Turks in 17th century, they moved to Kordun area (today Croatia) and lived there for hundreds of years. They have become Kordunaši, but never stopped being Serbs. You might be Montenegrin by regional identity, but you are a Serb nonetheless by your nation. In the same manner that Kentuckians are Americans, and Languedocans French. Regional identity is not a national identity.

For non-native speakers, I have prepared a little comparison examples. They are all in latin script to make it easy to compare.

  • Croatian official: Što je lijep ovaj svijet.
  • Serbian ijekavian: Što je lijep ovaj svijet.
  • Montenegrin: Što je lijep ovaj svijet.
  • Bosnian: Što je lijep ovaj svijet.
  • Serbian ekavian: Što je lep ovaj svet.
  • Čakavian: Ča je lip ovaj svit.
  • Kajkavian: Kak je lep ovaj svet.

From this we can see that:

  • Serbian ijekavian and Montenegrin and Bosnian and Croatian are one and the same.
  • Čakavian and Kajkavian differ quite a bit from official Croatian. No surprise here, since official C. is Štokavian, as Serbian is.

So the real question is rather, whether we need a wikipedia in čakavian and kajkavian, which are quite hard to understand to štokavian speaker. Or we need to open a fifth wikipedia in štokavian, which is perfectly understandable to great majority of people in former Yugoslavia?

Some people here have much sharper knives than pens. --Мирослав Ћика 04:11, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

And ikavian? --93.86.230.195 17:22, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Is this a joke ? It reminds me of a bizarre attempt by Serbian philologist Mihailo Stevanović, who, somewhere half a century ago, constructed an artificial text, half the A4 form, where no one could distinguish whether it was written in Croatian or Serbian (reproduced- I'm not sure- in Stjepan Babić's "Hrvanja hrvatskoga"). Or de Saussure's (was it he ?) construction of a fable in Indo-European. OK, for those literate in Serbian, Croatian, Bosniak/Bosnian and Montenegrin, here are two brief - IMO not scientifically analytic, but, what the heck- interviews re. Croatian and Serbian languages, but applicable to the Bosnian and Montenegrin situation as well: [9],[10] Mir Harven 15:06, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Miroslav, your views on national identity please keep to yourself. You can't forbid anyone to feel how they want, and how to express their nationality, especially that nationality is biggest in country. Montenegrin is ethnic and regional nation, both. It is known that people who have origins from Montenegro, are the strongest opposers of Montenegrin identity. None one is forbidding you to feel like Serb, then I don't see why you would that to others.

Montenegrin is ethnic and national identity, like it or not.

Also, by your post, conclusion is that we should close Serbian/Bosnian/Croatian wiki and just keep the SH. Why your nation to have more rights than others (yours as Serb, as you don't accept that Montenegrin is a nation which equals fascism, but it is normal on Balkans)? Rave92 16:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Miroslav, as a nativ speaker of serbian, you surely can explain the meaning of bosnian words like:
  • Zijan
  • Zejtin
  • Ponjava
  • Hefta
  • Tendżera
  • Hastal
  • Varenika...
There are thousends of them, don´t want to make a dictionary from this proposal. By your examples, you can also add slovakian or russian, and every nativ speaker of b/h/s will understand it. Even if they use synonim like "krasni svet". --WizardOfOz talk 07:57, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Wizard, what is your point? Some words are: 1) regionalisms or archaisms 2) not of Slavic origin, but loanwords from Greek, Turkish, Persian or Arabic. Btw - (h)astal - table, zejtin - olive oil, varenika - sort of meal. Honestly, I don't know meaning of the other words (people from that area would know), but they are not exclusively (of) Bosnian (origin).

Regarding Montenegrin: Standardization, ISO code and widespread usage of any standardized version are years away. We are in an absurd, surrealistic, comic situation that those who claim they speak Montenegrin can not describe it. Like all of them are followers of Institute for language, literature, small business and telecommunication from Čajniče. It is good script for Monty Python's Flying Circus, too. -- Bojan  Talk  09:35, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

The point is that even if we understand both languages, we don´t speek the same language. We also understand the most other slavic languages, but we speek bosnian, croatian or serbian. BTW the first is correct, the second is every sort of oil, and the last has nothing to do with meal, it´s just a milk. :) --WizardOfOz talk 13:42, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
One would say we do speak same language 'cause new national standards have much more in common (same 30 letters, tenses, cases, word formations (You know: glasovne promene i tako to)...) than different. -- Bojan  Talk  14:14, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I know what you want to say, and we will understand each other the next 500 years or more. That´s not a problem. There will be also the next country we will all live in, even if it´s European Union. What I´m trying to explain is that the cradle of the language is it´s regional character and their way to grow up out of this cradle. If we allways look at where the language is coming from, then we can unify all slavic languages ´couse they are all products of regional and national development. Just becouse someone sayed years above there is onli s-h and all others are just dialects, there is still a right there to give standards to the dialects and improve them to own languages. That is the situation wich is coming up now. People are giong back to their national identity, to their cultural identity. I know that Wiki is not a place to make standards, but if there are juristical standards, we must accept them. The only thing that montenegrin don´t have is ISO 639-3, thats all. But as Millosh say, it´s on hold until then. --WizardOfOz talk 14:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Yup, national development - that is true motive behind Montenegrin. Americans didn't do that after they broke relations with Britain. Montenegrin language currently doesn't have more things than just ISO code (universally accepted orthography, dictionary, history, notable written works, teachers, above_mentioned distance). -- Bojan  Talk  15:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes national development. If we don´t forbid it to bosniacs, croats or serbs, why should we forbid it for montenegrin? The distances between all those languages are just small lines, but they are there if we want or not. --WizardOfOz talk 15:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I do not forbid their national development, they can be Chinese or Martians if they want, but I can't just sit and watch someone's abuse of my language for political benefits. -- Bojan  Talk  15:47, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

It´s just a way things happens. Own country, nationality and than language. I know it is not easy if someone split your cultural and national definition, but that´s the way everyone do it to get his own state. We also all know that we are all the same, but we still call us serbs, croats or bosniacs. If we go just 100 years in the past, we will find a part of our families somewhere on the "other side", some even today, but we are not leaving in the past and should go with the step of time. We can´t know what will be in the future (EU, collapsed Greek state, new great Macedonia, two states in Bosnia... all of them are political decisions), but what we can say is: there is a state, there are speakers and they have right to have own language even if they call it serbian dialect in Montenegro. But 144.000 decide to call it montenegrin, so we should respect it. --WizardOfOz talk 16:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

No, Montenegrin is precedent. Have you ever heard for American, Austrian, Brazilian, Mexican, Egyptian, etc.. languages? Aside from language abuse, it is also Wikipedia abuse, at least 'til Montenegrin language really becomes truly distant from Serbian. -- Bojan  Talk  16:59, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Nobody here does not require the Wiki in the Brazilian, Mexican, etc. language. Without fundamental change in the premise debate. Wiki is no place for discrimination. Discrimination would not allow the Montenegrins, who called their language Montenegrin language, to have their own wiki. Government and Parliament of Montenegro are officially adopted documents which stated that the official language Montenegrin language. Who can deny!--Markus cg1 13:04, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Markus, with every your comment that mentions Parliament and Constitution you just confirm something that we already know. Sorry, Wikipedia should not be place for soapboxing. -- Bojan  Talk  13:59, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I write about facts and not impressions. It is important ray--Markus cg1 12:33, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Will there be a Montenegrin language Wikisource? And if so, what material will be in there?--Pepsi Lite 22:28, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

"No, Montenegrin is precedent. Have you ever heard for American, Austrian, Brazilian, Mexican, Egyptian, etc.. languages?"

Have you ever heard of colonies? Rave92 19:28, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I have heard of colonies. What has this have to do with Montenegro?
Why doesn't Montenegrin language have a Wikisource? Couldn't you guys read and write during the Ottoman era?
Still, you guys should have your own brand new language, and I fully support this. --Pepsi Lite 22:27, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Montenegro was not a colony. -- Bojan  Talk  19:50, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

@Pepsi, it has to do as 90% of countries you mentioned are colonies which were inhabitant by the people which spoke those languages. Are you saying Serbs immigrated to Montenegro and that you brought your language to us? We were talking with hands before you showed your glory language? You don't have monopoly over it. It doesn't have Wikipedia or Wikisource because of people like you, who compare Montenegro with ex colonies and showing that there is no American, Brazilian, and think they can decide over my language with no basic knowledge of whatever. It's not brand new language.

@Bojan That's right :-).

Rave92 21:08, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Rave, I didn't understand your last message. Americans built their own nation after American war of independence, but they never renamed their mother tongue from English to American. When someone tends to rename existing language (and not letting things develop naturally), that is not matter of language monopoly, but matter of language abuse for political purposes. -- Bojan  Talk  14:27, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Colonies, they were all colonies. About they not renaming the name of language doesn't change the fact that mostly Americans were from UK and countries from Old continent. Brazil calls it Portuguese, Australia English, it has it's reasons. You want to say that Serbs from Serbia inhabitant Montenegro, and brought the language? We are just doing what other nations did, why you think we have less rights than you or other nations? Yes, everything that is not Serbian is politics and conspiracy against Serbs. We saw what that theory brought us in 90's. Rave92 20:22, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

What was official language in Montenegro before 1918?-- Bojan  Talk  22:31, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I was told, that Serbian writer, a Nenadović take not of in 1857, that in montenegrin schools educate to the Ijekavian variant, but the root of the standard Serbian language is the Ekavian language. Accordingly if Montenegro continued the education of the Ijekavian, then differences between the Montenegrin and Serbian they sall greats, such as between the Portugal and Spanish language – wrote Nenadović. Doncsecztalk 11:30, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Partially true - root of Serbian (or Serbocroatian) language (as Vuk proposed) was ijekavian variant, but ekavian variant prevailed in Serbia, due to fact that cultural centers (Matica srpska, Academy) were in Budapest, Novi Sad and Belgrade. -- Bojan  Talk  11:58, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Not true at all ! Do ijekavian speakers of southwestern Serbia spek "Montenegrine" ? There is no correspondence between actual nations and the different realizations of the slavonic yat" --Alvaro de Campos 21:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Truth to say truly beau coup the question on the language of the Black Mounts, as the Montenegrins, albeit was lived in independent state, but his definition was, that they the part of the Serbian nation. Albeit there are nation, where is two language, for exampl. Banat Bulgarians, Prekmurian Slovenes, Burgenland Croatians, etc. Doncsecztalk 12:43, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

SIL coding proposal officially rejected -> Montenegrin will use Serbian coding[edit]

The International Standardization Organization has officially voted and rejected Montenegro's request to add a specific coding for the "Montenegrin language". Its Working Group has noted that srp will be used for literature written in Montenegrin, for the Library of Congress, there is no Montenegrin language as separate from Serbian.

The Montenegrin government's official request to the international organization has been presented here as if it is a mere formality, a lot have been playing crystal balls and misrepresenting the reality that exists. This procedure has been misused as propaganda in an effort to promote this Montenegrin Wikipedia request, in hopes of pushing through this farce, apparently very aware that there is little chance for that to occur and that thus it is very doubtful the preconditions for this project, the request for which has been on hold for almost a year by now, will be met.

Since the conditions by which this request has been "frozen", i.e. put on hold have changed, I ask the Language committee to reconsider its controversial decision and put an end to these ridiculous shenanigans. SIL ISO-639 19:32, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

It would be awesome if you could provide a link to these decisions.--Prosfilaes 00:18, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
The earliest info on rejecting Montenegrin came from a blogger from w:B92 on 24 November 2010. The text is then carbon-copied to various news websites. Although it is just a blog, from his previous entry it is clear that the person is well acquitted with languages and recent news. -- Bojan  Talk  05:18, 8 December 2010 (UTC)