Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Narom

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main page Request for a new language edition: Wikipedia Narom
submitted verification final decision
Crystal Clear mimetype file temporary.png Discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Votes will be ignored when judging the proposal. Please provide arguments or reasons and be prepared to defend them (see the Language proposal policy).

The language committee needs to verify the language is eligible to be approved.

  • Check that the project does not already exist (see list).
  • Obtain an ISO 639 code
  • Ensure the requested language is sufficiently unique that it could not exist on a more general wiki.
  • Ensure that there are a sufficient number of native editors of that language to merit an edition in that language.

This proposal is on hold:

Waiting for registered contributors to express an interest. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:19, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code nrm (SILEthnologue) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Narom Language name in English
Language name Narom Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q3336135 - item has currently the following values:
  • en label = Narom
  • native label (P1705) =
  • instance/subclass (P31/P279) = language / Berawan – Lower Baram languages
  • Wikimedia language code (P424) =
  • writing system (P282) =
  • number of speakers (P1098) =


Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Community
You can optionally list your user name if you are an active contributor to the test wiki. Add "N" next to your name if you are a native speaker of this language.
Links Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Settings
Project name Wikipedya "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace Wikipedya usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace Wikipedya_sunting "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads no Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo File:... 135x135 PNG derivative from a decent SVG image (instructions)
Default project timezone Asia/Kuala_Lumpur "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces Potale and Potale_sunting (Portal and Portal talk) For example for a Wikisource which would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk"
Additional settings Enable TimedMediaHandler extension, and reset fallback language to either English or Malay or Indonesian since we don't know French Anything else that should be set
submit phabricator task (includes everything automatically, except additional namespaces/settings)

Proposal[edit]

As just met staffs of Wikimedia Indonesia and Wikimedia Community User Group Malaysia, we should have Our right to start a Wikipedia project in Narom language, however as I'm a little sorry, this doesn't seem normal because the de facto nrm: isn't a Narom Wikipedia but used for the Francophone-controlled Norman language, we tried to translate Our against message to French (well, most of SEA peoples don't have enough French knowledge) to them but still no reply (some of them are even made blacklist for us), thus we need sounds from langcom. Please tell me the way to complete Our dream, Selamat Datang! --125.38.13.57 03:22, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Initial Discussion[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
This has gone way off topic. See summary below. Let's restart the discussion at Second Discussion below and stay on topic, which is actually a pretty narrow one. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:38, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Waargh! This must likely to be a challenge of the entire Wikimedia Movements. I wonder if there are peoples willing to contribute it. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:56, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

The people speaking Narom surely have the right to start a Wikipedia, but only if there is a native user base, enough activity, and significant contents. None of those are there, so this proposal looks like it's just out of protest. Therefore, I oppose this, unless a native speaker turns up. --OosWesThoesBes (talk) 10:36, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

@Ooswesthoesbes: This shouldn't be the reason that you oppose, we have a number of unmaintained tests, even the Middle English one.
To the best of my knowledge, the reasons why they still can't contribute are documented at incubator:Wp/nrm:

So there have to be a serial of problems that at least @Reedy, Krenair, JCrespo (WMF), and Chasemp:... face-to-face. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 15:14, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

@125.38.13.57 and Liuxinyu970226: Do you want to start creating content now? If so, please contact me on my Incubator talk page, and I will set something up for you. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:47, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu: I do not oppose the creation of a test project (as that can easily be circumvented by simply using a different set of letters which aren't in use), I oppose the fact that there is no indication that native speakers are able/willing to contribute. The proposal written above looks like nationalistic inspired anti-French sentiments instead. --OosWesThoesBes (talk) 11:16, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

@Ooswesthoesbes: when the IP user(s) above talk about the language, they said they encountered this error when they're trying to translate messages, and they also used expressions like saying it's the language that "we the Narom people from Sarawak, Malaysia speak and write", thus it do appears like there are native speaker interest in developing the project (or at least they claimed so). C933103 (talk) 06:31, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, reading it back that seems to be the case. The way it was written wasn't all too clear (due to the quality of the English), so I revoke that statement. --OosWesThoesBes (talk) 09:36, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Summary[edit]

This has gotten way off topic. So I feel I need to put a stop to this, summarize a few points, and get us to refocus on the topic we should be discussing here.

  1. There is no neo-colonial (or any other) conspiracy against Narom here. Langcode nrm was used within Wikipedia for Norman before the ISO 639–3 standard even existed. The main page of Norman Wikipedia dates to April 2006. ISO 639–3 standard was published in February 2007. nrm is not a code within ISO 639–2, so it's not a code that pre-dated the Norman Wikipedia. To make a long story short, it's one of a few unfortunate conflicts we have that still date to the relatively early days of the Wikimedia movement.
  2. There seem to be great technical difficulties in untangling conflicts like this. Frankly, I do not understand why. But there have been phabricator items open on these things for a while. I suggest that if people have a specific complaint about the lack of progress on this front, they contact the system developers. But remember that many of them are volunteers, too, and there may be some very good reasons why this has not been their highest priority technical problem.
  3. Issues about code changes are not under Wikimedia's jurisdiction. If you want the language code nrm deprecated, you need to discuss that with SIL International, which is the standards organization that manages ISO 639–3. Don't discuss that issue here.
  4. Discuss Wikidata-related issues on Wikidata, not here. On Wikidata, Norman has different codes for the ISO 639-3 code (nrf) and the Wikimedia language code (nrm). Presumably, they have a way to address situations where those codes are different.
  5. Discuss translatewiki.net-related items on translatewiki.net, not here. While Portal:Nrf and Portal:Nrm both exist there, MediaWiki translations to Norman are coded to nrm. That undoubtedly needs to be fixed. That said, in the short run, there is no reason that a temporary code couldn't be used there as well as on Incubator to support a Narom Wikipedia test project.
  6. As far as behavior of certain registered and IP users here goes, just stop acting like children:
    • We don't need multilingual translations of things on this page. This discussion is being conducted in English. If people think it needs to be conducted in another language, say so. But don't start throwing out unnecessary blocks of translation that just lengthen the page to no useful purpose.
    • That said, everyone needs to treat everyone else respectfully here. I am going to start to be aggressive about reverting uncivil behavior.

Given the above, the subsequent discussion must have a very limited focus. Let me stipulate a few parameters here:

  • In principle, Narom is certainly an eligible language to have Wikimedia projects. And any project other than Wikipedia can even be conducted in Incubator under the language code nrm. The question here is strictly what to do about a Wikipedia project.
  • In the short run, in the absence of a resolution of the technical difficulties associated with making nrm available to this project, we will have to use a temporary code. Most of the range of q-- codes are available "for local use", so we will use one of those.
  • Because doing that—and because then using that code as a basis to start collecting interface translations at translatewiki.net—is a non-standard, somewhat complex process, I am looking to make sure there is a community of people interested in creating this project. Let me emphasize: we are not looking for people who say that "in principle, we think there should be a Narom Wikipedia". We are looking for people who actually intend to create content for a Narom Wikipedia test.
    • The reason I have requested that registered users be involved is that we need to be able to have a sense that such interest is real, not fleeting or disruptive. Ideally, I would have registered users who are associated with Wikimedia Indonesia and/or Wikimedia Community User Group Malaysia, and can speak for them, to affirm this interest.
  • If I get a sense that there is really a community that wants to start creating content, I will be very happy to assign a code—and to ask translatewiki.net to do so, as well. (@Amire80: for information.) So far, it really only looked to me as if people were arguing for the sake of principle, not because they really want to create content.

The "Second Discussion" below is therefore limited to the following question: Who are the users (and preferably Wikimedia affiliates) who actually intend to create content? Please identify yourselves. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:22, 8 November 2018 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Second Discussion[edit]

Is there any technical difficulty that would prevent the creation of a nrm incubator given that the other language that's currently using the nrm code does not have an incubator project? C933103 (talk) 08:19, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

@C933103: "...and the database name nrmwiki is reserved for that wiki..." --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 13:49, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
When the database name is reserved, the Incubator extension expressly prohibits creating or editing pages with that prefix. The only two things you can do with such pages is (i) leave them alone or (ii) delete them. (And if you delete them, you can't then restore them.)
However, starting a project with a temporary code on Incubator is a very flexible solution. Understanding that we are a very long way away at this point from the possibility of an independent Narom Wikipedia, either of the following would be very easy to do:
  • If Norman(d) Wikipedia is ever moved to nrf.wikipedia, such that nrm.wikipedia becomes available again, it will be very easy to move a test project from Wp/q-- to Wp/nrm.
  • If that never happens, and Narom Wikipedia becomes approvable otherwise, the test at Wp/q-- can be put to any possible subdomain you want (like, for example, narom.wikipedia.org).
So don't worry about that part. Just find people who are competent at writing in Narom to create content. That's the real question here. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:03, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Actually, it seems like the original statement in the proposal was talking about interface translation. Will it also be easy to assign a q-code for them to do interface translation and then move it around? How would it interact with http accept language header that users might have specified? C933103 (talk) 02:40, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
If the problem is just "where to create the test wiki"? Yes I already found the answer.
If the problem is just requesting i18n for this language, let's follow that gerrit patch.
But now there's still the most hard-to-define question that: If one day this can be approved, what will happen during "Create Narom Wikipedia" task(s)? Currently the workflow of wiki-creating tasks are afaik:
  1. Add xxx.(project name).org to DNS and Apache (if not added)
  2. Add XXX language support to MediaWiki software (if not added, and if that has enough twn activities)
  3. Prepare and check storage layer for xxxwiki
  4. Localize core/Gadget/Scribunto/ProofreadPage namespaces to XXX
  5. Localize core special page names to XXX
  6. Add xxxwiki to WikimediaMessages/RESTBase/Pywikibot/wikistats
  7. Run populateSitesTable.php on xxxwiki so Wikidata and Parsoid supports are added
Non of steps above can avoid a sane-builded database, you must always make sure you're creating it with a "no doubt" name, because, as @JCrespo (WMF): said in phab:T83609#1310355 and phab:T21986#1287684, the renaming method do require exporting-and-importing of dumps, reload on all our clusters (codfw, eqiad, eqsin, esams, ulsfo). Then you have to re-populate the names in e.g. CentralAuth, server puppets, dblists; and as *all the user permissions lost, you have to re-assign the sysops, bureaucrats, checkusers, oversighters, ... etc. one-per-one on-wiki)*, and someone who first re-visit that wiki must have to patrol nearly all existed diffs as soon as possible, as they will reset as having red exclamation marks !
To me, is there really having benefits to rename nrmwiki? In fact they don't have any known sysops, and I've looked their Special:recentchanges, they don't have other activities other than global renames and central notices, so how does such a quiet wiki also need to do the "be-x-old to be-tarask"-like rename, just to give a place for another language that the nrm code originally assigned for? To me why can't we do semi-rename instead: First create a nrfwiki as-is, and lock it, then export-and-import dumps of nrmwiki to nrfwiki, and then clear all contents of nrmwiki? By this way we don't need a temporary code on Incubator ever. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 09:33, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226: That is not the subject of this discussion. I asked you to stop discussing the technical points. The purpose of this discussion is only "Is it eligible?", and that depends on only are there people who would create content. The question of where it lives and how we do it is not the subject for this discussion. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:51, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
@StevenJ81: Without checking translatewiki.net myself, given discussions being done by now, users have already started translating wiki interface into Narom. So people have already started making contribution to the wiki software that's contributory to establishment of wiki projects in that language. However, that is prevented and reverted by other editors on the site because of this language code problem, and thus editors have been prevented from making contribution necessary to establish wiki project in their own language version. C933103 (talk) 07:53, 13 November 2018 (UTC)